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/lit/ - Literature

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21799874 No.21799874 [Reply] [Original]

Postmodern fiction would never have risen and destroyed the world of literature if this ratfuck fart fetishist circus freak just wrote normal fucking books.

I hate him so much it's unreal.

>> No.21799891

Wrong, Gaddis claimed to not have read Ulysses

>> No.21799897

>>21799874
Good thing all your hate will eventually rewrite history. Just keep it up, maybe even intensify it to speed things up.

>> No.21799904

>>21799891
He was obviously lying. There's practically zero chance that two authors would independently arrive at such an inane, yet distinctly incomprehensible style of prose.

>> No.21799912

>>21799874
Which postmodernist writer(s) you think destroyed literature forever? And how?

>> No.21799915

>>21799912
Gaddis lit the flame, but Pynchon was really beginning of the end. Because of Pynchon, the purpose of literary fiction is no longer to express an idea, but rather to indicate how intelligent the author supposedly is. DFW is a perfect example of this; an absolute charlatan who had literally nothing to say about the world but nevertheless received universal praise because of how difficult it was to understand his writing.

>> No.21799917

>>21799904
Their styles are nothing alike beyond the emdash and the general idea of stream of consciousness. Gaddis wrote with a specific rage and intensity at nearly all times, not to mention focus on dialogue over prose. Joyce treated prose fiction as a poetic form above all. Gaddis painted with ideas, Joyce with words.

>> No.21799926

As she sat in the parlor, Molly Bloom felt a great rumbling in her gut. With a suddenness that took her by surprise, a loud and unladylike fart escaped her derriere, filling the room with a noxious odor.

"Molly," said her husband, Leopold, "that was quite a sound. It reminds me of the time I heard a steam engine in the distance."

Molly smiled and replied, "Ah, Leopold, you always know just what to say to make me feel like a proper lady."

>> No.21799928

>>21799915
It's weird because if Wallace got so much universal praise how come he never winned any major prize of literature? Or that James Wood and Michiko Kakutani didn't praised his books until Oblivion?
As for Pynchon I desagree with you, and ask you to tell me; Did you laughed at the scene of The Crying of Lot 49 when a hairspray goes out flying around the room? And how does that goofy scene (very well writen) counts as Pynchon trying to show how smart he is?

>> No.21799938

>>21799915
>Because of Pynchon, the purpose of literary fiction is no longer to express an idea
Ehh, a good half of American literary fiction has never had some meaning to it, it's pure aesthetics. Poe, Hemingway, Dickinson, Faulkner don't really have any messages though they have themes.

>> No.21799982

>>21799917
Use of emdash to setoff dialogues is more than just a passing familiarity. In certain episodes of Ulysses the dialogue also becomes chatter-heavy, with a lot of different voices mixing in without attribution. That sort of entropic conversation is Gaddis' entire schtick. Sure they are also different in many ways, ofc they would be I don't reckon Gaddis was trying to be a Joyce impersonator, but he was 100% lying when he said that he wasn't influenced by Ulysses. Joyce is a major influence on him visibly. Inspiration is not imitation. Nothing original under the sun, books are made out of books yada yada...

>> No.21799987

>>21799874
Anons ITT do not know the em dash dialogue is part of French novels.

>> No.21800009

>>21799987
Books are made out of books yada yada... nobody said Joyce invented that. No single writer has ever invented a common technique wholly.

>> No.21800011

>>21799982
Why couldn't he have had similar influences and then read those influenced by Ulysses? Guy was 100% the type to refuse to read the Big Book out of spite. Also
>>21799987 this

>> No.21800017

>>21799928
Why do you write this way? Are you a bot?

>> No.21800022

>>21800011
Because logic. He was much more likely to have come across the technique in Ulysses than some non-mainstream French novel. As I also said, emdash is the only one of their similarities. Gaddis commented on some newspaper writer unearthing similarities between TR and Ulysses that he himself was convinced that he must have read the book after reading the article.

>> No.21800026

>>21799915
For your sake, I hope that you're just repeating what you heard someone else say. Gaddis wrote well, Pynchon writes for fun, and DFW wrote because he felt like he had to. There's no inheritance there though - a few big books, but Barth and Barthelme are more relevant to DFW, but even they didn't dream this up. Read Tristram Shandy or Sartor Resartus.

>> No.21800027

>>21799917
Joyce sounds more like my cup of tea.

>> No.21800034

>>21800026
>even they didn’t dream this up
Disagree, I feel that Giles Goat-Boy and Chimera are more difficult than Wallace, Letters is arguably more grandiose than Infinite Jest as well

>> No.21800055

>>21800022
What's more likely: he lied for basically no reason for decades, or (he read a random French novel or just heard that it was an option and liked it)?
Wasn't that something like "I must have completely forgotten reading the book that influenced me so much!"?

>> No.21800073

>>21800055
The most likely thing is Anxiety of influence, pardner.

>> No.21800078

Gaddis' dialogue style is unironically annoying as hell, or I guess I got filtered. It's too hard to follow

>> No.21800080

>>21800073
>Anxiety of influence
Bloom is a bit of a dead meme, especially in the academy, but even if it's true, you can be influenced in ways that don't just ape someone. Beckett was influenced by Joyce so much he wrote almost the negative way of Ulysses: pared down, elemental, dry, dour.

>> No.21800096

>>21800080
>Beckett was influenced by Joyce so much he wrote almost the negative way of Ulysses: pared down, elemental, dry, dour.
But Gaddis didn't do that. There is no anti-Ulysses element in TR.
>Bloom is a dead meme
But anxiety of influence isn't. And Gaddis and Beckett are both prime examples of this anxiety. Gaddis was so obsessed that TR itself is partially about originality in art.

>> No.21800121

>>21800017
I don't write in english often. My english comes out very dry.

>> No.21800266

>>21800121
What's easier to write in? Do you have to think in terms of going to the next literal translation in your head for some terms, or is it more that you trained to write less expressively in English because learning was a chore?
Not a dig, but I find it hard to write in French for poetry when I don't know many words.

>> No.21800282

>>21800121
Try eating some yoghurt

>> No.21800292

>>21799874
Unremarkable influence on posmodern fiction. Gaddis was directly influenced by Eliot. Pynchon was influenced by comics and pulp novels. Delillo says that he tries to replicate the language of european films of the 50's. Barth admired the finnegans but he was a picaresque fantasy writer more in line with Borges.
The only two major influences in posmodern fiction are both Faulkner and Hemingway, of which McCarthy is the only true successor.

>> No.21800294

>>21800292
Faulkner and Hemingway both were strongly influenced by Joyce.

>> No.21800303

>>21800096
>TR itself is partially about originality in art.
Only at a superficial level. The main subject is the artistic status of unoriginal works.
>>21800055
Are you referring to Les Faux-monnayeurs? It could also be retroactively considered an influence considering the character dynamics and subject.

>> No.21800328

>>21800303
>The main subject is the artistic status of unoriginal works.
So about originality in art? Okay.

>> No.21800336

>>21800294
Was Woolf also greatly inlfluenced by Joyce too? Lmao

>> No.21800337

>>21800096
>But anxiety of influence isn't.
T.S. Eliot already formalised a better version of Bloom's "tradition informs individual talent" without the psychologising babble that Bloom got from Freud. It is a dead meme.

>> No.21800339

>>21800337
But anxiety of influence is a real thing irrespective of Bloom

>> No.21800341

>>21800328
You know it's not the same. Why are you trying to be shallow here?

>> No.21800344

>>21800336
She was influenced. What are you on about?

>> No.21800345

>>21800339
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/articles/69400/tradition-and-the-individual-talent
That's because Bloom stole the idea and then tacked on shitty psychobabble. Stop calling it the anxiety of influence, just call it literary tradition.

>> No.21800351

>>21800345
Call it whatever, it still means the same. Gaddis was anxious at his work being seen as Joyce-influenced instead of its own thing.

>> No.21800354

>>21800351
And your argument is that he is so anxious that he copies Joyce? How frightfully omniscient you are with respect to the minds of writers, anon.

>> No.21800361

>>21800354
My argument from the start was that he was familiar but claimed ignorance in order to be seen as distinct from the strand. Never once have I written anything about copying from Joyce.

>> No.21800365

>>21800361
Every person is influenced by what became before them, especially with language. We wouldn't be able to communicate otherwise.
But, even so, caring about intent on this level is fallacious when you think you can work out the entire direction of postmodernism from about two writers or so, then make sweeping claims about the quality of it all.

>> No.21800384

>>21800365
You are confusing me for multiple people.

>> No.21800387

>>21800384
Sorry. I just thought this whole thread was retarded. I'll try to keep your retarded, pseud opinion compartmentalised from the rest of the retarded thread.

>> No.21800392

Where do I start with postmodernism?

>> No.21800400

>>21800392
The Jeets.

>> No.21800418

>>21800387
Your Gaddis-shilling feelings are becoming butthurt now.

>> No.21800440

>>21799917
>Gaddis wrote with a specific rage and intensity at nearly all times, not to mention focus on dialogue over prose
Not sure I agree. J R, for example, is mostly composed of dialogue, of course. But it has some of the most beautifully-written descriptive passages I've ever read. Gaddis compacted his prose into tiny little nuggets of literary brilliance to be only rarely interspersed in endless dialogue. Joyce's prose was effluent and everywhere. Gaddis absolutely painted with prose... arguably just as well as Joyce did, if nowhere near as prolific.

>> No.21800451

>>21799915
>because of how difficult it was to understand his writing.
it meant you just got filtered, anon.

>> No.21800454

>>21799915
You dumb pseuds always reveal yourself by saying that Pynchon and other "pomos" are so difficult/hard to read. Is that perhaps because you are a worthless imbecile who spends more time on 4chan than actually engaging literature?

English is my third language. I never studied literature nor anything similar. Yet I had zero problems reading Pynchon, and I never thought him overly complex or difficult compared to actually difficult authors. If you think Pynchon is hard, try reading medieval esotericists.

Even Gravity's Rainbow is absolutely doable without English bring your first language. He'll spend 3 pages describing various British candies and how disgusting they are. He's vulgar and lowbrow and that's good.

You got filtered by an author that teenage me could keep up with. You should honestly just stop posting and hang your head in shame.

>> No.21800457

>>21799915
>the purpose of literary fiction is no longer to express an idea, but rather to indicate how intelligent the author supposedly is
Maybe it's much simpler than that, anon. Maybe literature doesn't need a purpose, be it the transmission of ideas or of the author's ostensible qualities. Maybe something that's beautifully-written can have value without explicit purpose. Maybe art can exist without being tethered to discrete, knowable reasoning that satisfies people with more concrete styles of thought.

>> No.21800478

>>21800418
I'm more of a Pynchon man myself. Thanks for the seethe, though.

>> No.21800482

>>21800478
No wonder you are so low IQ then huh

>> No.21800647

>>21799915
Most people who decry them like this, on the other hand, end up proving how unintelligent they are to people who understand the works by not seeing how concise they actually are

>> No.21800937
File: 527 KB, 1982x2696, Samuel_Beckett,_Pic,_1_(cropped).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21800937

>>21800292
>the only two major influences in postmodern fiction are Faulkner and Hemingway
Do burgers really not read anything written by someone who wasn't born in America?

>> No.21800960

>>21800937
None of the guys influenced by him were postmodern unless you use a broad definition.

>> No.21800968

>muh postmodern….LE BAD!!!
Been watching too much Kermit the frog there

>> No.21800979

>>21800960
What?? Barthelme was influenced by him and that's about as "postmodern" in the narrow sense as it gets:
>In a 1975 interview for Pacifica Radio, Barthelme stresses that, for him, Beckett is foremost among his literary predecessors - Wikipedia
Gass lists him in his 50 literary pillars and Barth was pretty influenced by him if I recall too.

>> No.21800987

>>21800979
You listed 3 writers with a combined audience of 6000 readers. Pretty sure this guy>>21800292 meant major influence.

>> No.21801013

>>21800454
Wow anon, you are so smart. Do you use Discord? I'm interested in sucking your humongous cock...

>> No.21801026

>>21801013
also interested, heh

>> No.21801210

>>21800034
Not sure what you are disagreeing with. I was using that to lead into Tristram Shandy and Sartor Resartus being early examples of these qualities (i.e. before Barth).

>> No.21801239

>>21801210
Moby Dick had already pioneered the Encyclopedic novel also.

>> No.21801241

>>21801210
Btw The main premise and aesthrtic of Sartor Resartus was basically plagiarized by Nabokov for Pale Fire.

>> No.21801293

>fart fetishist

He was also into scat. There's a letter where he asks Nora to take a shit while he watches.

>> No.21801351

>>21800454
rekt

>> No.21801437

>>21800987
Once again, burgers try to wield their ignorance as some sort of prideful shield

>> No.21801513

>>21799874
Dubliners is a normal short story collection.

>> No.21801523

>>21801239
True
>>21801241
Also true

>> No.21801650

There were plenty of authors writing more conventional novels at the time. You could just read Gore Vidal , Norman Mailer, Truman Capote, etc if you hate Pynchon and Gaddis so much.

>> No.21801657

Didn't postmodernism start because O'Brien wanted to poke at Joyce's education? If anything, you should hate the Jesuits.

>> No.21801685

>>21799874
There really aren't that many postmodern novels

>> No.21801740

>>21799915
>he couldn’t discern the very obvious themes in all three of these writer’s books so they actually just don’t have them
I have never seen someone unintentionally BFTO themselves so hard

>> No.21801757

>>21801685
Is the significance the maximalist pomo novel highly overstated? People seem to focus on them like they were the only literary works being produced at the time, but there was so much else going on at the time.

>> No.21801778

>>21801757
They have a big appeal to a select slice of litbro, the sort who tend to be present and active in online literature discussion. So a bit of selection bias going on in places like this and others we shall not speak of.

>> No.21801805

I saw a thread ages ago that bemoaned the Renaissance for cutting short medieval culture. This thread is just as braindead. The Renaissance was the culmination of medieval cultural development. Likewise the 19th century realist novel became more and more complex untilit burst open into modernism (or "post-modernism", whatever OP thinks that means). Blame Flaubert and Conrad and Henry James if you're going to blame Joyce, and or go further back and blame Sterne, or blame the accelerating bourgeois culture that kept dissolving old forms and revealing new zones of subjectivity.

>> No.21801810

>>21801805
N-no stop it, the great man might hear you!

>> No.21803133

>>21800482
>IQ
You just repeat memes at this point. Have fun in your sophomore year, anon.

>> No.21803143

>>21799915
If you think DFW is hard to read, when he was very obviously trying to write simply, then you are a dullard.

>> No.21803149

>>21801805
Henry James is dogshit. Don’t ever mention him on the same sentence as Flaubert.

>> No.21803150

>>21803133
Low IQ cope

>> No.21803152

>>21799874
they dont even consider him postmodern
They think he was still committed to a narrative

>> No.21803169

>>21803150
Psychology isn't scientific.

>> No.21803194

>>21803169
IQ is not psychology you retard

>> No.21803202
File: 591 KB, 1978x1280, psychology.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21803202

>>21803194
Oh yeah it's just started by psychologists, only ever talked about seriously in psychology journals, and only ever conducted by a psychologist. Kek.

>> No.21803214

>>21801805
Or he should just stop getting so cucked by a fantastic author like Joyce. Who gives a shit who he was influenced by? So what if he was a fart-sniffing scat-lover?

>> No.21803226

Should I read Underworld
Infinite Jest
V
I've never read postmodern novels before

>> No.21803238

>>21803226
Infinite Jest is easier to read, but it was modelled on Don DeLillo quite a lot, while also being quite too long. It's best to approach it if you are actually in its themes of entertainment and pleasure as opposed to fulfilment.
V is filled with gags and goofs and songs. I find Pynchon easier to read because I need some humour to keep me going.
DeLillo is always quite easy to parse, but he has a depth underneath it all. I find him pleasurable to read.

>> No.21803247

>>21803226
Just skip postmodernism and read Joyce. His catalogue is all you need. The only person I'd even *consider* reading who's postmodern is Gaddis. Also Beckett. But every other author is shit.

Fuck Wallace. Fuck Pynchon. Fuck DeLillo.

>> No.21803253

>>21803247
Wallace was Metamodernism by the time he wrote Infinite Jest.

>> No.21803274

>>21803253
Meta- or post-post- or whatever the fuck he was, his book was a slog to get through and completely unnecessary.

>> No.21803425

>>21803238
Which is the most beautiful?
Which one is the most haunting?

>> No.21803447

>>21803247
What characteristics even make Gaddis' writing postmodern, other than the time period?

>> No.21803485

>>21803226
V. is sophomore tier which is true for a lot of Pynchon.

Delillo is sometimes a cringey post 9/11 prophet but he writes better. Underworld is one of his better books

Wallace will appeal to you if you were an addict at some point.

>> No.21803490

>>21803202
Keep coping. IQ is a widely accepted metric regardless of origin.

>> No.21803495

>>21803485
What if im currently an addict

>> No.21803504

>>21803490
Then why do no scientists administer IQ tests? Only trained psychologists do. It's not widely accepted since there's a dozen or so versions that don't even align with another. It's only used to diagnose mental retardation, which might be why you are so obsessed with it, retard. It can't tell you the difference between a Joyce and an Einstein.

>> No.21803509

>>21803447
Nothing, really. That's why I hate the term "postmodernism." Even "modernism" is a stupid term and theorists openly acknowledge this. Gaddis is simply a continuation of Joyce, nothing more nothing less, in that his books, particularlyThe Recognitions, are maximalist, encyclopedic, extremely recherche, and difficult.

>> No.21803510

>>21803425
>Which is the most beautiful?
I don't think in those terms for art. Lol. Maybe don't read if you think in these terms.
>Which one is the most haunting?
Infinite Jest tries to diagnose the current malaise of entertainment, but Underworld diagnoses fear of terrorism and difference, which is important if you are political or individualist.

>> No.21803530

>>21803504
Scientists take them though. IQ test is pattern recognition and verbal understanding. Your low IQ ass thinks it's some sort of therapy session with the psychologist assigning some random number, you are retarded. There has not been a single mathematician or physicist of note with low IQ. It just doesn't happen.
>It can't tell you the difference between a Joyce and an Einstein
Einstein was way better at logic and reasoning. That is for sure and IQ tells that. I never claimed anything more. Your low IQ ass is just getting bootyblasted for no reason.

>> No.21803534

>>21803247
Beckett is not postmodern you retarded fuck.

>> No.21803537

>>21803534
He is chronologically you atrocious autist.

>> No.21803540

>>21803504
They were much more widely used in the past, albeit in various forms, until a Supreme Court case (Griggs v. Duke Power Co.) made them illegal.

>> No.21803542

>>21803530
>Scientists take them though.
Stephen Hawking said it was for losers. Asimov said that it was for losers who need to feel special.
I took an IQ test and got 98th percentile for verbal reasoning, so it's obviously bullshit because the test asked me where Krakatoa was. KEK. It was WAIS IV. So suck my dick, that shit ain't about intelligence.
>>21803537
That's a big word. You know Beckett was already published years before postmodernism was even a word?

>> No.21803547

>>21803510
Ok well I don't care about diagnoses or truth, maybe I'll give they a miss

>> No.21803551

>>21803547
Thanks for letting me know about your non reading habits. Such an interesting specimen.

>> No.21803554

>>21803551
You are a waste of time

>> No.21803558

>>21803554
Log off.

>> No.21803560

>>21803542
He was a disciple of Joyce whose death marked the putative end of modernism. It's a simplification that we use for convenience.

>> No.21803570

>>21803560
Postmodernism is an afterthought of losers who tried to make the 60s to 90s feel special when a whole lot of shit art was going on. Any definition trying to make it about "high-low culture blending" obviously didn't know TS Eliot liked shitty low culture plays, or that Elizabethans were basically contemporary Hollywood for poor retards and kings alike.

>> No.21803583

>>21803509
Mostly agree, though I don't think most of those characteristics originated in Joyce.

>>21803534
I would argue that, conceptually, works like Waiting for Godot and his trilogy have a lot in common with veritable, consensus postmodernists like Barth, but like the other anon said, what exactly "postmodernism" denotes isn't exactly clear. Is it known by its qualities or its time?

>> No.21803600

>>21803542
>Asimov
Lmao
>Hawking
Yet he took one.

>> No.21803607

>>21803600
Asimov was a chemistry professor. You are a loser on 4chan.

>> No.21803613

>>21803583
>works like Waiting for Godot and his trilogy have a lot in common with veritable, consensus postmodernists like Barth
They have far more similarity with the books being written in France during the period by Nouveau roman gang than American postmodernists that came later. And Barth was heavily influenced so it doesn't really show anything. Even going by the definition of modernism, Beckett's trilogy is modernist (metafiction isn't exclusove to postmodernism).

>> No.21803618

>>21803607
>chemistry professor
Hahahahahahaha

>> No.21803624

>>21803618
What do you do? Post in 4chan threads in your free time? That's so laughably sad compared to great men who were part of the scientist milieu. Asimov scored a 160 IQ so your argument falls flat considering you now scold him.

>> No.21803681

>>21803624
So he said it was for losers to feel special, then took one himself and now you are using it to validate him to me (and to yourself be honest). The irony never dies.

>> No.21803701

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>> No.21803713

>>21803681
He said it after he took one and was part of MENSA. You aren't very bright, but that was obvious since you think one test done by a psychologist determines your entire life projection.

>> No.21803755

>>21803713
Low IQ insecurity

>> No.21803761

>>21803755
Post your score then. I bet you don't even care about IQ at this point. You use it as a way to compartmentalise life because you're insecure yourself.

>> No.21803795
File: 143 KB, 640x640, The duality of man.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21803795

>>21800266
My way of speaking and writing is very "characteristic" in my native language, so instead of trying to adapt the way I think to english I just write in a very bland way. It's just an anonymous forum after all. But I read a lot in english.

>> No.21803800

>>21803761
Lol

>> No.21803817

>>21803226
Read The Crying of Lot 49, is more comprehensible and less pretentious in what is trying to represent. And obviously shorter

>> No.21803887

It's weird that there's such a mania over maximalist novels when most of the authors writing them won't really be remembered in 100 years or so, IMO, except Joyce and maybe Pynchon (mostly as a meme). This seems to be a cultural artifact of a time when people sincerely tried to engage in one-upsmanship by reading Difficult Literature, as if such a thing really existed.

>> No.21803962

>>21803887
That would be a shame, because Gaddis' novels (at least The Recognitions and JR) probably hold the deepest insight on postwar America. Both him and Gass had their talent obscured by complexity. The future may gloss over 20th century literature entirely - the gates to the Western Canon may have closed permanently.

>> No.21803966

>>21803962
The books most remembered from the 20thC will be Ulysses and LoTR.

>> No.21804116

>>21803962
We don't gloss over the 19th century, even though most of it was garbage.
90% of Tennyson, Browning, Tolstoy, Dickens, Hugo, Trollope, Balzac etc sucks balls, but we remember the good stuff.

>> No.21804127

>>21803962
Gass wasn't a genius under any meaning of that term

>> No.21804349

>>21799874
I don't care about novel before modernism. All poetry I care about starts in the late 19th century. Postmodernism is inevitable and a good thing. Gass, Pynchon and Burroughs are godsend. People who think otherwise, I would never listen to their opinion about anything, they might as well be dead.

>> No.21805505

>>21804127
I agree, but I think he had a good artistic vision.

>> No.21806800

bump