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/lit/ - Literature

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21782524 No.21782524 [Reply] [Original]

do you believe free will exists? why or why not? and to what extent? do you believe our choices are truly ours? whenever i look up about free will on the internet i get articulates specifically about neuroscience but can't it go further back then that? if we were gods and could trace every atom, every bit of energy, everything that exists back to the big bang and when everything was a singularity and took that singularity and made a new universe (universe 2) and threw that singularity in it, would the big bang happen the same way and the universe 2 would develop the exact same way down to each atom and quark and light particle doing the exact same thing it did in our universe, would that mean that our galaxy, solar system and Earth form the exact same way at the exact same time since everything is the exact same? wouldn't homo sapiens identical to each of us exist and be the exact same as us down to each atom? the point is, wouldn't everything that has ever happened have been inevitable from the moment the big bang happened with its specific matter/energy composition and that for us in universe 2 to act differently or be different in anyway would have been a break in the laws in the universe as it would have been atoms acting in a way they shouldn't have? sorry if i am not articulating this well, i am autistic (my mum says i am, i haven't gone for a diagnosis)

>> No.21782530

>>21782524
>do you believe free will exists?
Yeah, god made us in his imagine so if we don't then neither does God.

>> No.21782536

>>21782530
i want to have a serious discussion, no religion sorry

>> No.21782799

>>21782524
Free will is determinism and determinism is free will. If we are made of atoms then we are the atoms determining our decisions, so we have free will. For some reason pseuds think that free will must mean acausality.

>> No.21782802

>>21782530
Thank you.
\thread

>> No.21782901

>>21782524
>do you believe free will exists?
Nah, god made us in his imagine so if we don't then neither does God.

>> No.21782924

>>21782524
The problem with determinism is that causality has to have some beginning point, the cause without a cause which determines everything. But if causality is just a priori and doesn't actually exist outside our minds then it's probable that the universe, which doesn't care about human concepts, is infinite and doesn't have a beginning or an end. This is the basic argument that Schopenhauer made in his dissertation. We cannot apply the principle of sufficient reason to things that lie beyond human understanding. He made this point to refute the idea that God is the cause of all things. Causality cannot be used like a taxi where you get off when you reach your destination.

>> No.21783077

>>21782924
There’s this thing physicists call the arrow of time. Entropy always increases, the proof: Schopenhauer is now worm food. Checkm8

>> No.21783274

>>21783077
>Entropy always increases
Midwit spotted. In the next universe it will be decreasing.

>> No.21783278

>>21782530
FPBP

>> No.21783283

>>21783077
>Entropy always increases, the proof: Schopenhauer is now worm food. Checkm8
God can decrease it. proof:the bible

>> No.21783289

>>21782524
Yes. We are all a part of God and God has free will therefore any action we take is both God's will and free will.

>> No.21783298

>>21783274
Evolution of life goes against entropy. Entropy is not a natural law that applies to life.

>> No.21783303

>>21783274
Prove it
>>21783283
Appeal to belief

Refute me properly. I’ll wait.

>> No.21783309

>>21783298
Incorrect. You’re defining your closed system inadequately. Still waiting.

>> No.21783323

>>21782524
I'm not a low IQ idiot who believes in magic.

Cause and effect are real.

Your skyfather is not.

>> No.21783325

>>21783309
I'm still waiting on a single person to explain successful chromosomal increases via meiosis when free radical mutation has a failsafe regression preventing it from happening to essential systems. Sorry but there is something we do not know happening to life to cause complexity to increase. We know basically nothing about anything and are trapped in 3 dimentional space with linear temporality and never will know.

>> No.21783329

>>21782924
There's no reason to think the universe isn't infinite.

>> No.21783335

>>21783323
what i said specifically was cause and effect, it had nothing to do with religion or god

>> No.21783336

>>21783325
Technical jargon to obfuscate your ignorance. The enthalpic term mogs the entropic and the sun is constantly pumping energy into the system allowing it to explore local minima on a global potential energy surface. Still waiting.

>> No.21783338

Read Yuk Hui instead of churning out 8th-grade level arguments about causality you fucking morons.

>>21783325
meds

>> No.21783346

>>21783338
>Read Yuk Hui
this doesn't help, you need to elaborate. what specifically am i to read? what book? what article? and about what?

>> No.21783351

>>21783329
Then people should stop looking for a first cause.

>> No.21783364

>>21783336
>a system cannot become more complex, it only breaks dowm
>b-but the sun god is pumping more energy in which magically becomes complex b-because energy
>the s-sun god is an outside system

We literally have no way to know what came before or after the big bang and energy death. You're making terrarium assumptions based on nothing.

>> No.21783377

>>21783364
No, the other anon is. The putative birth and death of the universe is irrelevant to its current state. Your missing trees for the forest, the grasp of which is far beyond any man living or dead. Still waiting.

>> No.21783386

>>21783377
Has the universe become more or less complex since the big bang, yes or no?

>> No.21783394

>>21783386
Prove the Big Bang without an appeal to authority. I’ll wait.

>> No.21783430

>>21783303
>Prove it
If you want to hold yourself to standards of “proof” then you will have to suspend judgement on your own proposition that entropy always increases as well as mine that it will decrease in the future.

>> No.21783444

>>21783394
Exactly. Now you get it.

>> No.21783451

>>21783430
So you concede? I’m not claiming to know, I’m just waiting for someone to come up with an argument that isn’t dogmatic or riddled with logical fallacies. If I have to employ the same tactic to try and arrive at a truth, is that wrong? Tell me Glaucon, what is truth? I’ll wait.

Incidentally it’s much easier to empirically demonstrate the spontaneity of increasing entropy in a closed system than it is to demonstrate the birth and death of a universe. I can recommend a high school chemistry textbook if you want some examples.

>> No.21783457
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21783457

>>21783338
>computer engineering
Codesisters, did we win?

>> No.21783501

>>21783451
>Incidentally it’s much easier to empirically demonstrate the spontaneity of increasing entropy in a closed system than it is to demonstrate the birth and death of a universe.
Unfortunately the former has nothing at all to do with the fate of the universe and can’t be used to draw conclusions about it on its own.

>> No.21783521

>>21783501
Did I ever make the argument that it could? I seem to recall pointing out that it’s a non sequitur. Still waiting, but growing bored.

>> No.21783532

>>21783521
Then what are you even arguing? Are you arguing that the arrow of time isn’t reversible or not?

>> No.21783543

>>21783532
Read the chain. I’m arguing that I don’t know, it’s possibly/probably unknowable, and that the burden of proof lies on the person or persons making the claim of knowing. Tiresome.

>> No.21783740

>>21782530
if God gave us free will why do religious people always try to pass laws that circumscribe the free will of others?

>> No.21784012

>>21783740
Read Exodus.

>> No.21784030

>>21784012
>i can't answer your question, so i'll just tell you to go read something else.
If God gave us free will then religious people are directly disobeying God by presuming to pass laws and force people to "be good" (whatever that even means)

>> No.21784067

>>21784030
Read Exodus.

>> No.21784110

>>21784067
I've read it. Either make your point or stfu.
Religious hypocrites say that God gave us free will (the free will to sin, even) and yet the same group try to pass laws that take away free will.

>> No.21784140

>>21784110
You haven't read Exodus.

>> No.21784163

>>21784140
yep, i have actually. You clearly haven't read the Bible

>> No.21784172

>>21782524
If determinism was true then how come so many people are complete retards?

>> No.21784256

>>21784163
You have watched The Prince of Egypt. You have not read Exodus.

>> No.21784296

>>21784256
you watched Veggie Tales, you haven't read the Bible.

>> No.21784381

>>21784296
What is the majority of Exodus about?

>> No.21784426

>>21784381
what is the majority of the Bible about?

>> No.21784441

>>21784426
How to live properly.

>> No.21784450

>>21784441
like i thought, you haven't read the Bible.

>> No.21784455

>>21784450
Ok church trauma bro

>> No.21784506

>>21784455
just stick to watching Veggie Tales with the rest of the biblically illiterate

>> No.21784511

>>21784506
Ok church trauma bro. I hope you get over your daddy issues someday.

>> No.21784530

>>21784511
>church trauma
were you raped at your church? so common these days. Sexual predators gravitate to religion.

>> No.21784549

>>21784530
Personally I'm an interfaith deist and an anarcho-libertatian. Exodus is just the obvious judeo-christian base upon which all laws are built. The majority of the book is lawmaking while the heebs are in the desert. Not just the commandments but also petty little laws. If you are wondering why they like statist laws for living properly maybe start there. Go with Christ, brother. May your mental wounds scar over and fade.

>> No.21784556

>>21784549
>God gave us free will because he didn't want robots so it's up to humans to make a million laws that take away our free will and make us into robots.
oohhhh, okay, i get it now.

>> No.21784579
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21784579

>>21782524
>had no saying in being born
>didn't create my own body and brain
>can't control any function of your brain until you're like 5
>too low conciousness to know where thoughts come from
>literally can't choose what thought will come next in your head
No, I don't belive we have free will. If I did, I would know what I am ever about to do and not do it. But we have zero idea about any of that. We confuse conciousness for free will, we have conciousness, YES but not the ability to do what we want, or to think what we want. Go ahead and try to see if you know the next thing you will think of. You don't, you just do it. You just go along with it. Never any second thoughts, it always comes from "behind" your brain and you go with it. Even when you feel like you wanted it to, it still means it popped up in your head, you didn't have it beforehand.

>> No.21784591

>>21784556
If you want the better answer it's there in Exodus. God is reality. If you live positively by following the commandments and following the order of your tribe you survive, if you don't you die. If you try to fight reality you die. Many such cases! Start small brother. Thank God everyday for something when you wake up and before bed. Take inventory of how much you have thanks to God and think how wisest to invest these things in a way that will help everyone around you and God will provide! Stay positive traumatized bro! You can do it!

>> No.21784613

>>21784591
the OT god requires blood sacrifices because he's a vampiric demon entity that enjoys the taste and aroma of blood, animal and human. He's literally no different than any of the other so-called "pagan" gods that also required blood sacrifices.

The Canaanites worshiped the Baetylus Stone just like the Hebrews worshiped the Bethel Stone. You're worshiping Bronze Age pagan entities that got rebranded, well done you!
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baetylus
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Jacob

>> No.21784669

>>21784613
I'm interfaith, why would I not like that?

>> No.21784721

>>21784669
and proving that you haven't read the Bible lol.
i'll spoon feed you and spell it out:
The OT claims that the Canaanites were evil, "descendants of Cain" and worshiping demons. Yet the Hebrews had the EXACT SAME religion as the Canaanites, they both practiced blood sacrifices, they both worshiped meteor stones (Baetylus/Bethel Stone), YHWH = Moloch = Baal = Jupiter = Zeus. It's all one big pagan religion that the Bible claims to be separate from, but the facts don't support this.

You're worshiping literal vampiric demons lol
>yea i know, but the Bible is the teachings of vampiric demons and how they taught us to "live properly"
lol

>> No.21784808

I love the concept of free will and wholeheartedly belive in it, but it's dying fast, and by that I mean that people don't belive you have THAT much free will anymore. Like if you hate certain things, you will just be called mentally ill rather than hating them by our own will, or if you decide to change your beliefs about certain things, most don't belive in that either. So i wonder what free will do they belive in. Just yes or no? I will do that or i won't? Is that all you think there is to free will and the brain?

>> No.21784863

>>21784721
Brother I don't take scripture literally because I'm not mentally retarded.

>> No.21784864

>>21784579
>I would know what I am ever about to do and not do it. But we have zero idea about any of that.
Anon I have bad news for you, you're an NPC.

>> No.21784871
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21784871

>>21784579
>free will is the ability to do any thing at any time with no caveats

>> No.21784873

>>21784863
>read Exodus
>Brother i don't take scripture literally because i'm not mentally retarded.
>but read Exodus anyways.
you're mentally retarded.

>> No.21784877

>>21784873
Sure, church trauma bro

>> No.21784894

>>21784877
you're the one that got raped by your pastor, though i'm not sure why you'd share that with the complete strangers online

>> No.21784899

>>21784871
to think*
Small reading mistake. The things I mentioned were to show how many things are out of our control in the first place

>> No.21784900

>>21784894
I'm not the one on fedora crusade in a free will thread.

>> No.21784907

>>21784899
And considering our neurons along with our body, are also not ours, we have no control over them, if you belive in free will you basically belive in a soul.

>> No.21784923

>>21784900
>just read Exodus, but don't take it literally.
>it teaches us how to live properly, but only if you don't take it literally.
>the vampire demon YHWH gave us free will because he didn't want robots but then gave us millions of laws because he wanted robots.
it's hilarious watching you trying to defend your literal demon worship lol

>> No.21784940

>>21784923
I hope you sort yourself out buddy. Maybe read the Gita or Tripitaka instead.

>> No.21784983

>>21784940
>read the Exodus
>okay nevermind don't read the Exodus, read this instead.
you clearly are a zoomer that has no inkling on the subject matter you presumptuously discuss. Maybe you should just stop talking and let the adults talk instead.
>ACKSHUALLY just read this
>oh you have a rebuttal, well in that case read this other thing.
>oh another rebuttal? read this book then.
do you have a single idea of your own, or even understand any of the ideas you read about in your demonic books, or do you basically just tell people to read books all day? generally curious if you can actually discuss an idea instead of just recommending books lol (sign of a midwit zoomer, big time)

>> No.21784995

>>21784877
lol, this guy got so assblasted in this thread he made a completely new thread to whine about it
>>>21784410
you're worshiping pagan demons that demand blood sacrifices and engage in cannibalism (eucharist). Just admit you got duped into worshiping demons and move on with your life.

>> No.21785007
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21785007

>>21784983
Damn, you're over 30 and still on fedora crusade? I am fully aware this is not about me. I hope you sort yourself out, brother. There's hope for everybody, even you. What happened to you was not your fault. Start by making a list of gratitudes daily.

>> No.21785025

>>21785007
typical zoomers, think they know everything because they read a 4chan infographic once lmao

you should seriously consider reporting the pastor that raped you to the police. Stop protecting pedophiles.

And definitely consider not engaging in topics you don't know anything about (like this one). Just because you're a zoomer doesn't mean you have to act like a zoomer.

>> No.21785069
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21785069

>>21785025
Anon you don't sound very well right now. You should read Exodus. Then apply its teachings to your life.

>> No.21785083
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21785083

>>21785069
sorry, i don't take advice from zoomers. But why are you reading books written by demon worshipers who engaged in blood sacrifices and cannibalism (eucharist)?

>> No.21785094

If by free will is meant that actions have no causes, that is false. But if it is meant that we do, at least sometimes, what we want to do, that is true.

>> No.21785104

>>21785083
Scripture and mythology rule and I like reading, meditation, prayer, and exercise. There is always something to learn from scripture and mythology. Blood sacrifices and cannibalism rule. That stuff is beyond interesting.

>> No.21785115

>>21785104
>i worship demons that teach us how to live properly
>like cannibalism. The cornerstone to any functioning society.
begone, Zoomer! get thee hence from this place

>> No.21785116

>>21782536
Then you'll have to stop existing

>> No.21785136

>>21785115
I am an anarcho-libertatian. If you think I don't fantasize about cannibalism in the event of a financial or physical cataclysm and have a small hoarde of guns and ammunition you are mistaken.

>> No.21785154

>>21785115
Are you purposefully trying to channel Michel Onfray, or is this just some elaborate trolling?

>> No.21785156
File: 1.90 MB, 1200x1200, ReadExodus.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21785156

>>21785136
>i fantasize about cannibalism
you can stop pretending to be morally superior just because you read the Bible and like the sacrificing of children and eating of corpses. You're not impressing anyone.

>> No.21785163

>>21785154
>i worship vampiric demons from the Bible that require blood sacrifice and have cannibal rituals (eucharist), but you're the troll, not me.
You are worshiping LITERAL DEMONS.

>> No.21785174

>>21785163
>>i worship vampiric demons from the Bible that require blood sacrifice and have cannibal rituals
They offer me eternal life, duh.
Seriously tho this is quite cringe.

>> No.21786670

>>21782524
Free will exist.

>> No.21786677

>>21785156
Ok fedora bro

>> No.21786724

>>21782524
Not really. Your brain generates a range of possible allowable actions based on memories of your past experiences. It will only allow actions within this possibility space or slightly adjacent to it because it has reasonable certainty of what will happen.

You can't actually just do whatever you want on demand if your brain has no frame of reference from your history, it literally won't let you

>> No.21786803

>>21782524
I beleive people have free will but in life I find that there are things that are out of my hands despite my earnest attempts to correct these outcomes, like women being afraid of me

>> No.21788055

>>21786677
>you must be an atheist if you don't believe in the pagan bible
okay zoomer child