/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21778106]

Has anybody got a chart / recommended reading list for psychoanalytic theory? Or can you just jump into Freud or Jung right away?

[Anonymous No.21778452]

>>21778106
This is a good starting point desu

[Anonymous No.21778626]

I'm not as knowledgeable about Jung but you can just approach Freud directly. I would start with the Interpretation of Dreams, since it's their common starting point. You can skip the first chapter if it's too boring. Three Essays on Sexuality is a good one to read next, especially if you want to understand why Jung split away from the psychoanalytic movement. Finally, The Ego and the Id outlines most of the important features of Freud's later thought, the structural model and the death drive. He wrote a lot more interesting papers, though, that's just a starting point. If you want a nice recap of early and middle Freud, Five Lectures on Psychoanalysis is good. There's a ton of secondary literature too, but Freud is actually a pretty lucid writer so imo it's more useful as a glimpse into the culture of psychoanalysis rather than an explanation of its ideas.

[Anonymous No.21778678]

>>21778626
Based. Thank you anon.

[Anonymous No.21778681]

>>21778678
No problem. By the way, if you don't care about theory and just want to read some crazy shit, Civilization and its Discontents and Totem and Taboo are both really fun.

[Anonymous No.21778922]

>>21778681
Yeah I've heard that Civilisation and its Discontents is supposed to be a classic. I was just worried it would be naive of me to think I could just jump in at the deep end. I'll give it a go. What have I got to lose after all? Thanks for the confidence boost, anon.

[Anonymous No.21778940]

>>21778106
Freud's a pioneer, his work changes too much too quickly and if you don't follow his and his peers' works chronologically (which is too much effort considering half of it will go to trash) you'll get lost. So many theories are left and new ones are constructed in time, and Freud's work isn't even complete. He's too stuck up with some ideas of his and even though he's had to construct in his later life non-sexual drives, he still wasn't able to be as open-minded as Jung was. His work definitely applies to a lot of cases but it is not enough to cover the totality of the psyche, as it is incomplete and reductionist. Jung is well-read in psychoanalysis literature and other psychologies or therapies besides psychoanalysis and it isn't that Jung brought completely novel techniques and constructed his own psychology, but he uses some of Adler's and Freud's theories and techniques and non-psychoanalysis therapies too, but he thinks that they're narrow in the sense that they are not suitable for everyone but only certain types of personalities and people in certain levels of individuation. Contemplation on the fact that all these different therapies and theories are grounded in the same empirical material and they all had considerable therapeutic effect in their own rights and yet they could not be fused together to form a single psychology brought him to construct the theory of psychological types. For this reason, analytical psychology(Jung's psychology) is very comprehensive and functions as an umbrella for different schools of psychoanalysis and other psychologies theoretically.

>TLDR; read Jung -->
Start from Symbols of Transformation, Collected Works Volume Five(You can read Man and His Symbols before this, and if you don't plan to read too much just that and CW5, though if you're interested in psychology you definitely should) and then make your way up. You can read former volumes too if you want to commit though they are very technical(except the 4th) and not really his psychology but works in Freud's psychoanalysis or psychiatry, it's definitely helpful to know how he came to construct his own ideas though so at least check out the 4th volume. After 9th volume(it is in two parts, 1st being 'Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious', 2nd being 'Aion', first part will be enough for now, better keep Aion for later) you can read Erich Neumann's The Origins and History of Consciousness, The Great Mother; Joseph Campbell's The Masks of God series(Campbell gets shitted on quite a lot but his schema of Oriental-Occidental Mythology still holds up well for comparative mythology reading); if interested in Jungian therapy read Michael Fordham; Marie-Louis von Franz has some beautiful readings of fairy tales and myths so check her out too. If you are interested in Freud my advice would be, after reading volumes from five to seven read the fourth volume(Freud and Psychoanalysis) and then get into Freud. I wouldn't recommend skipping Jung though.

[Anonymous No.21778965]

>>21778106
Mandatory reading before you read Freud, espicially chapter 9:
Understanding Jews, Understanding Anti-Semitism by Herve Ryssen
https://libgen.li/ads.php?md5=936e109b570e7711d22e899ad2f95075

[Anonymous No.21778969]

>>21778940
>Freud's a pioneer
The only thing Freud was a pioneer of was pilpul style obsessive recursive interpretation. Nothing else in his corpus is original.

[Anonymous No.21778978]

>>21778969
nah

[Anonymous No.21778988]

>>21778978
Read picrel. It summarizes the history behind most of Freud's ideas. Freud's only contribution is pilpul. If you have more time, look into actual letters, documents, history.
Jung isn't a pioneer either. Occultic theories of mind have been around for at least 2 and a half millenia. Jung simply formalized and restated it.

[Anonymous No.21778995]

start with The Freud Reader. Just read it cover to cover. The entire book is extremely interesting and I still think about it all the time. It's the best introduction, because you can read Freud's theories as they develop.

Before that, if you're completely new i'd start with the Adam Curtis documentary series, A Century of the Self. That will familiarise yourself with the general ideas and some key words.

You can't really just jump in to one of Freud's most popular works (particularly stuff like civilization and its discontents) without understanding his theories on the id/ego/super ego, pleasure principle, psychoanalysis as a practice, transference, religious belief, and sexuality

After you do a comprehensive reading you will appreciate just how enormous his influence has been in psychology, literature, arts, and social and political theory.

skip jung. he's a new age quack.

[Anonymous No.21779903]

>>21778940
Based

[Anonymous No.21779987]

>>21778626
Nice

[Anonymous No.21780009]

>>21778995
>Before that, if you're completely new i'd start with the Adam Curtis documentary series, A Century of the Self.
so good

[Anonymous No.21780032]

>>21778965
thanks

[Anonymous No.21780885]

>>21780009
Where can I find it?

[Anonymous No.21781991]

>>21778988
checked

[Anonymous No.21782070]

>>21778969
>>21778988
Do you know what the word "pilpul" actually means, because it seems like you're using it as a euphemism for something else

[Anonymous No.21782205]

>>21778106
Freudian/Lacanian here. Starting with Interpretation of Dreams is great. I really like Evans' Introductory Dictionary of Lacanian Psychoanalysis as an early stop (jumping around between entries is fun), and Boothby's Freud as Philosopher is probably the single best book on psychoanalysis I've read.

[Anonymous No.21782216]

>>21782205
Where to start with Lacan?

[Anonymous No.21782233]

>>21782216
Television

[Anonymous No.21782325]

>>21782233
I tried watch video but audio is very distorted.

[Anonymous No.21782329]

>>21782216
I'm reading Fink's Lacanian Subject right now and it seems very good so far.
Lacan anons correct me if I'm wrong.

[Anonymous No.21782631]

>>21778940
Thanks anon, that was very informative

[Anonymous No.21782672]

>>21778106
"I think he's crude, I think he's medieval, and I don't want an elderly gentleman from Vienna with an umbrella inflicting his dreams upon me. I don't have the dreams that he discusses in his books. I don't see umbrellas in my dreams. Or balloons.

I think that the creative artist is an exile in his study, in his bedroom, in the circle of his lamplight. He's quite alone there; he's the lone wolf. As soon as he's together with somebody else he shares his secret, he shares his mystery, he shares his God with somebody else."

[Anonymous No.21782741]

>>21782216
>>21782233
>>21782329
Television is a good recommendation. Fink has basically carved out a position for himself as the "Guy Who Reads French and Translates Lacan for Americans" over the last 30 years or so, and recently become bored and tired of doing so. He's fine, and that's a good introductory book, but because Lacan is opaque you'll find a lot of people just parroting secondary sources. Lacan kind of encourages this himself from my point of view, in that he will often put words in Freud's mouth. But, in the same way that I don't think Freud requires much prior knowledge to get started, I think Lacan DOES, and actually having a solid background in Freud is important. In addition to a familiarity with Sigmund's work, the two other books I would recommend would be "The Ego and the Mechanisms of Defense" by Anna Freud, and "Ego Psychology and the Problem of Adaptation," by Heinz Hartmann. Lacan is one of many midcentury attempts to define a psychoanalytic project in opposition to Ego psychology, some of them more amenable than others to reconciliation with the dominant Freudian perspective of the time. It will help to know what he is going up against. You can then make pretty good sense of the context around "Le Stade du Miroir"

[Anonymous No.21784138]

>>21782233
checked

[The subconscious doesn't exist anon No.21784148]

I feel personally attacked by this thread.

[Anonymous No.21784189]

Read the bio by Gay and the Freud Reader. I'd recommend Beyond Freud afterward for a feel for post-Freudians. Doesn't cover Jung tho. He is good on his own but mostly watered down in secondary source. Ie campbell n peterson. Hillman n Edinger n von Franz r based tho. Like other anon am lacanian myself. Dialectics bb. Zizek is shit but has ok intro. Fink is basic but serviceable. Borch-Jacobsen's Absolute Master is best overview. Very philosophical tho. I suggest Saussure as prelim for Lacan myself. But many disagree. Levi-Strauss too. Ego psych is covered in Beyond Freud. With Freud Reader you can find most essays ref'd in Ecrits. Lectures are equally important. To use guenonian, think of these as exo/eso

[Anonymous No.21784448]

>>21784148
Why?

[The subconscious doesn't exist anon No.21785864]

>>21784448
No idea, no concept or theory has had half as much of a deleterious effect on the cultural psyche of western civilization as the whole of Freud's inane writings. I will dedicate myself to a one-man crusade against his influence and in particular against the completely ridiculous idea of an unconscious or subconscious. It is my calling.

[Anonymous No.21785911]

>>21785864
Yeah that's right bitch, bump that thread for daddy.

[The subconscious doesn't exist anon No.21785930]

>>21785911
> Follower of Freud
> incestuous/homosexual fixation
...

[Anonymous No.21786162]

>>21778922
On the contrary, while the text references psychoanalytical theory a bit, it's mostly just Freud sperging out about what it means to be happy. I have barely read Freud and jumped into this book with ease. Enjoy Friend.

[Anonymous No.21786974]

>>21778626
Thanks for the effortpost, anon.

[Anonymous No.21786987]

"The Interpretation of Dreams" - This is Freud's most famous work and a foundational text for psychoanalysis. In it, he explores the meaning of dreams and their role in the unconscious mind.

"Civilization and Its Discontents" - This book explores the tension between individual desires and the demands of society, and how this conflict contributes to feelings of unhappiness and discontent.

"Totem and Taboo" - In this work, Freud examines the origins of religion and the role of the Oedipus complex in the development of societies.

"Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality" - In this book, Freud explores his ideas about the role of sexuality in human behavior, including the concept of the "sexual drive."

"Beyond the Pleasure Principle" - This book delves into the idea of the "death drive," which Freud believed was a fundamental part of human nature and a source of psychological conflict.

I hope this helps you get started on your journey into Freudian thought! :)

[Anonymous No.21787444]

>>21778626
Hey anon, I have his introductory lectures on psychoanalysis but I found the first part about parapraxis a bit boring. Can I skip this part and advance? I’m asking because the other chapters seem more interesting, but I fear I’ll lose some reference later on.

[Anonymous No.21787468]

>>21787444
Freud gets pedantic when he wants to defend important points in his reasoning, so early Freud is full of stuff like him laboriously explaining dreams, slips, jokes, etc. It's kind of hard because the actual mechanisms Freud goes over are important, and the concrete details of the associations that get made in analysis are the only real way of exploring them. So, unless you understand slips and stuff, you're going to be "seeing by faith," and stuff about infant sexuality or sexual symbolism (e.g., the Oedipus, castration) might either look like insanity or a religious belief. I would try to skim when things get boring, the introductory lectures are one of the longer things he wrote actually. If you want something shorter, here's his write up of the lectures he gave when he came to America, it's clearly written and represents the original thrust of Freud's project very well: https://files.catbox.moe/x0rgbp.pdf

[Anonymous No.21787539]

>>21787468
I think it has more to do with the fact that I hesitate in agreeing with him about every slip being meaningful with a determinate cause. So I’d say it is this disagreement that may be obstructing my enjoyment of this part of his work. I’m sure I’d be much more interested in the parts about jokes, dreams, even if he proceeded in a rather fastidious manner. Thank you for these lectures, they can be read quickly.

[Anonymous No.21787567]

>>21778106
Schopenhauer and Wagner are a must-read before Freud. They shaped the entire intellectual climate in which psychoanalysis was fostered. This is the reason why you will find all of the major early psychoanalysts, with the exception of Freud himself but especially in his circle, wrote interpretations of Wagner, while Freud did credit Schopenhauer in Beyond the Pleasure Principle.

>Many of Wagner's concepts, including his speculation about dreams, predated their investigation by Sigmund Freud. Wagner had publicly analysed the Oedipus myth before Freud was born in terms of its psychological significance, insisting that incestuous desires are natural and normal, and perceptively exhibiting the relationship between sexuality and anxiety.
>What Wagner calls the "ur-myth" reveals, in Oper und Drama, a recurrent conflict of individual and social wills. In order to explain this conflict Wagner uses two terms found elsewhere in his writings of this period, the words "Will- kür" and "Unwillkür." "Unwillkür" means "not consciously willed" or "instinctive"; and "Willkür," its antithesis, signifies conscious choice with pejorative overtones of despotism, caprice, and irrationality. The Mythos embodies the conflict of the instinctive-unconscious and the arbitrary-conscious in terms of the incompatibility of the individual will as immediate response to sensible reality with the social will as codified abstract. The story of ancient Thebes is cited to illustrate the political basis of the Mythos.

[Anonymous No.21788890]

>>21786162
>>21786987
thanks anons

[Anonymous No.21789522]

>>21785930
what do you think the dreams are made of?. if not subconscious?, what it is?. legitimate curious about your answer, im not a freud follower i just want to know your idea.

[Anonymous No.21789615]

>>21778106
>willingly reading jewish subversion meant to destroy western society
lol do /lit/fags really?

[Anonymous No.21789705]

>>21789615
fuck off

[Anonymous No.21789953]

>>21789705
oy vey!

[The subconscious doesn't exist anon No.21790590]

>>21789522
Unrestrained (or very weakly restrained) imagination linked by narrative construction. Possibly, (and this is a personal theory), it is simply that the imaginative "channel" linked to subvocalization gain stronger vividness in the dream state. I don't think a freudian psychologist would disagree with this, apart that he would probably think dreams have some sort of meaning, or that they are constructed according go some logic which can then mean something. Dreams are likely built from representations drawn from semi-random (the logic could be purely mechanical) memories and linked together in the moment of the sleep state.