/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21752943]

Pewdiepie's catalog included this. Is this really the normie gold standard for an intro into buddhism? Are there better books?

[Anonymous No.21752957]

>>21752943
Buddhism For Dummies

[Anonymous No.21753014]

>>21752943
Fuck sake. This is a core traditional text. It expresses what the guy actually said as it was memorised by the community he founded. Read the fucking title you utter hylic scum. That scholar in particular is an expert.

[Anonymous No.21753056]

>>21752943
>anatta means "lol no soul!"
There are almost zero translations that don't indulge post-schismatic retard interpolation or bowdlerization. Per Coomerswamy, "Buddhism today is most famous for everything the Buddha never taught!" That said, this corrects that

George Grimm. Doctrine of the Buddha.
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.70145

[Anonymous No.21753061]

>>21753056
>anatta means "lol no soul!"
but he doesn't say this? he translates it as non-self.

[Anonymous No.21753144]

>>21752943
What's the difference between this and the Dhammapada?

[Anonymous No.21753154]

>>21753144
This is discourses, dialogue, questions of disciples and the replies of the master while the Dhammapada is just what Buddha replied in concise form. I don't know for sure since have only read the Dhammapada.

[Anonymous No.21753224]

>>21753056
>um achkyually Buddha taught the philosophy of a Hindu theologian who lived 1000 years later
"Traditionalists" are so gay

[Anonymous No.21753339]

Check out Thanissaro Bhikku's website accesstoinsight, he's my theravada main man. Being of dutch-amerikaner stock, his understanding and exposition of the dhamma feels more indo-european than (((Bhikku Bodhi))).
There is a tiny hint of jewish flair with B. Bodhi; not saying that it's a bad thing, just something you ought to know.

[Anonymous No.21753393]

>>21752943
Don't look up Bhikkhu Bodhi's early life section on wikipedia.

[Anonymous No.21753551]

Right jewhating is the secret ninth fold of eightfold path

[Anonymous No.21753632]

Early Buddhist Teachings by Y. Karunadasa

[Anonymous No.21753812]

>>21753393
lol

he is fine for the translations i think

[Anonymous No.21754024]

>>21753014
>That scholar in particular is an expert.
He's a controversial and stupid Jew.

[Anonymous No.21754042]

>>21752943
pewdiepie is a faggot grifter
but I do envy having lots of money and therefore all the time in the world to read whatever he wants

[Anonymous No.21754091]

>>21753393
And don't look up his positions on social justice and ordaining women, or his monastery's location.

[Anonymous No.21754098]

>>21752943
>Pewdiepie's
Who? Sounds like a gay pornstar

[Anonymous No.21754260]

>>21754042
>all the time in the world to read whatever he wants
Nigger faggot stop posting on 4chan for a day and you'll have a bunch of free time

[Anonymous No.21754428]

>>21753056
the soul is a metaphysical incongruence, since it pose two substances interacting with each other which is impossible, or a "trascendental world" and a false world which is nihilistic and life denying, buddha's abandoned that for a relation base ontology(notice how all the importan philosopher and logicians in the west end up following the buddha's step on this matter), which is much more coherent, since it doesn't break the chain of causation like all "first princip'le:god/soul" philosophy does
also notice that the non existence of a soul ro a god doens't imply the non existence of a form of the world beyond our immediate cognition, that's what make traditionalist seethe so much, buddha show how you don't need a god or a first principle to experience eternity, in fact such a thing will end up fucking you since it will reify the whole spiritual proces
>Coomerswamy,
he wasn't a buddhist but a perennealist, so he has an agenda to make every religion look the same

[Anonymous No.21754578]

Read the Samyutta Nikaya the connected middle and long discourses of the Buddha.

The wisdom of the Buddha is infinite and limitless. Do not hold yourself back. These sutras are powerful and contemplative. You shouldn't need an introduction to Buddhist theology as it is really a way of making clear what is already confused. Understanding, tranquility, and clarity come with the everyday devotion to study.

[Anonymous No.21754604]

I've read several intro buddhism books and felt "the heart of the buddha's teachings" was best.

>>21754098
he's a kids TV presenter on yootoob

[Anonymous No.21754624]

sorry, I can't take "buddhist" chantards seriously. Pretty sure that posting on 4chin contravenes most of the precepts of The Eightfold Path..... thats unless you're one of those reddit/west-coast hippy buddhists

[Anonymous No.21754630]

>>21752943
(((Bhikkhu Bodhi)))

[Anonymous No.21754638]

>>21753339
This. Thannissaro Bh. did a great series of talks on the influence of the Romantics on neo-Buddhism, a well as writing a book on the subject called Buddhist Romanticism. https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/BuddhistRomanticism200728.epub

[Anonymous No.21754701]

I'd like to shill Pannobhasa Bhikkhu's youtube channel.and his collection of essays.

He is a great dude and worth to read if you're into buddhism.

[Anonymous No.21754729]

>>21754624
In what way?

[Anonymous No.21754750]

>>21754624
Not at all. Just shitpost compassionately

[Anonymous No.21754846]

>>21753339
I second Thannisaro, Bhikku Bhodi is NOT a good source for Pali Canon translations. He openly teaches that the the precept of truthfulness can be violated as long as it serves a good purpose. Theres not evidence that the Buddha taught that anywhere in the Canon. Bhikku Bhodi also teaches the “No-self” doctrine, stating that the Buddha taught there was ontologically no-self. Thanissaro makes a strong case for the Not-self discourse not being a statement of ontology, but rather a discourse of mental strategy(“seeing phenomena as not-self).
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/NobleStrategy/Section0014.html

Also you can straight up order Thanissaro’s Pali Canon translations for the cost of a postage stamp. They will ship it to you for free*, no strings attached in any way.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/ebooklist.pdf

[Anonymous No.21755005]

Is this why this board is so retarded? It's people who watch video game streamers when they aren't busy on /pol/? The book in question is probably fine for what it is, a selection of Pali suttas translated by the author, however I would recommend you pick up both the Long and Middle Discourses (latter also translated by Bh Bodhi) as a better starting point, both of which have decent introductory essays and comprehensive endnotes. As this volume is an abbreviation of those and the other Discourses, I would assume some of that information has been sacrificed to accessibility. (And if you do decide to read onward you'll now be buying the same texts twice). I would not consider any translation of Asian material to be a "normie gold standard for an intro into Buddhism" as they barely read to begin with, let alone this sort of literature. Alan Watts or his descended pop-spirituality contemporaries would be more appropriate.

[Anonymous No.21755007]

its fine, bhikkhu bodhi's translations are decent

as for the chosen snippets for the anthology, bhikkhu nanamoli's 'life of the buddha' is much better by placing important suttas in chronological order, gives a much more living image of the buddha's life compared to bodhi's anthology which sometimes seems random

[Anonymous No.21755021]

>>21754624
Only if they are hyperprotestant-nihilist reconstructionists projecting their baggage into Theravada, then they need to go do the touch grass mūdra.

[Anonymous No.21755036]

>>21752943
I have this but I don't think it's worth starting with, then again I generally think that primary sources are not worth starting with in general
I think a better introduction is The Foundations of Buddhism by Rupert Gethin

[Anonymous No.21755051]

>>21752943
I have this but I don't think it's worth starting with, then again I think that primary sources are not worth starting with in general
I think a better introduction is The Foundations of Buddhism by Rupert Gethin
>>21754624
I'm not a Buddhist I just have an interest in Buddhism

[Anonymous No.21755173]

>>21753061
>>21753224
>>21754428
Buddha affirmed the "self" or "true self" but he didn't deny it either. He even went as far as saying that worrying about it, affirming it, denying it etc... is mental poison. And yes, anatta means "not-self" it doesn't mean "non-self". Non-self and other ontoligical statements are something the Buddha never teached.

>>21754846
>>21753339
Can confirm Thannissaro is leagues better and does a great job spreading the Buddha's words for free.

[Anonymous No.21755177]

>>21755173
*meant to say Buddha didn't affirm

[Anonymous No.21755261]

>>21755173
Buddha never deny that there could be something beyond our notion of self, but the self is one of the 3 fetters a person must destroy to become a sotappana

[Anonymous No.21755858]

>>21754846
Based

[Anonymous No.21755986]

>>21753056
>Buddha existed
>Buddhism relies on authority from text
>Buddhism isn’t experimentally demonstrable as an ontic investigation

Go back to being a prot mate. My divine text is a British “funlation” of a Japanese transvestite melodrama kungfu comedy starring a magazine whore based on a modernistic compilation of feudal folktales which were a combination of joke and boast stories.

And this is good.

There’s less proof for Buddha being an individual than Jesus—and it doesn’t matter.

[Anonymous No.21756001]

I know it's hard to believe /lit/ but not all Jews are bad actors lmao

[Anonymous No.21757170]

>>21756001
Perhaps not deliberately 'bad'. Most of the times they cannot help themselves. Which is why we need to be coompassionate towards them and show them true dhamma rather than the form of romantic buddhism that JuBus (Jewish Buddhists) always gravitate to. Bhikku Bodhi strikes me as very tikkun olam-ish, if that makes sense.

[DoctorGreen !DRgReeNusk No.21757209]

>>21752943
>Are there better books?
Depends. Do you know Pali?

[Anonymous No.21757236]

>>21752943
>Are there better books?
Journey to the West (recent Chinese Translation).
Zen comics (1970s/1980s). Or if you don't like pictures Gateless Gate etc.

>Pali canon
Learn Pali

>Better books
You know at the end of Journey to the West they're given the real sutras, get all the way back to china, and open the chests…guess what is written on the scrolls?

[Anonymous No.21757237]

>>21752943
If you want an introduction to Buddha's life, Osamu Tezuka has made a great manga about in (70s), which is pretty accurate though there are some more personal parts YW0HYT

[Anonymous No.21757246]

>>21754428
>which is nihilistic and life denying
Nietzsche would definitely call buddhism life-denying yeah, because they weren't killing people and dominating

[Anonymous No.21757250]

>>21753014
>trust the experts

[Anonymous No.21757253]

>>21754428
>There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that release from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, release from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.

[Anonymous No.21757258]

>>21752943
>>21753014
>>21753393
>>21753812
physiognomy check

[Anonymous No.21757263]

>>21754846
>He openly teaches that the the precept of truthfulness can be violated as long as it serves a good purpose.
where? in his translations?

[Anonymous No.21757266]

>>21757237
Like the bit where the snek fucks him?

[Anonymous No.21757286]

>>21752943
>>21754578
The Pali canon is large, disconnected, composed after centuries of oral transmission, all of that combined with the general Indian relative lack of concern for logic (or what we call this since Aristotle if you are butthurt at saying Indian are illogical). You can make the Buddha say everything and its opposite, and indeed various historical Buddhist schools have.
Imagine some protestant brandishing the usual few passages vaguely going his way from the new testament and saying they are the true basis of Christianity teaching that God is actually ugly, does evil and makes false judgements unlike the damn papists saying God follows the transcendentals. Then their female pastors promote trannies.
Here's Bhikkhu Bodhi.

[Anonymous No.21757291]

>>21757258
Styx physiognomy?

[Anonymous No.21757292]

>>21757286
wasn't buddhism turned into a sort-of protestantism after the british conquered them?

[Anonymous No.21757340]

>>21757292
Buddhism died in India around 1200AD at the latest. The only land conquered by the Brits that were Buddhist are Burma and Sri Lanka, they didn't have much influence on the Buddhists there. The monks of the Theravada schools control the religion, they are very insular and didn't like the British at all.
Even the Sri Lankan Christians are Catholics that came from pre-modern Indian small Syriac-based churches (who reintegrated universal communion) or from the time of Portuguese control, or recent internal preaching. Burmese Christians are largely Baptists from 20th century mutt megachurch preachers.

[Anonymous No.21757344]

>>21757340
the buddha said the dharma would last 1000 years, or only 500 years if they let roasties join monasteries (they did)
>The Buddha said to Ananda, “If women do not go forth in the dharma vinaya I have taught, my true dharma will remain one thousand or more years. Women going forth will decrease the true dharma by five hundred years.” If the true dharma is still to remain one thousand years, why would the Bhagavan have said this? To respond: This was said with stable liberation in mind. If women had not gone forth, liberation would have been stable for a thousand years, but now in the latter five hundred years, only discipline, listening, and samadhi are stable and liberation is not. All of this is the fault of women going forth.

[Anonymous No.21757362]

>>21754428
>a false world which is nihilistic and life denying
Post disregarded

[Anonymous No.21757373]

>>21754846
>He openly teaches that the the precept of truthfulness can be violated as long as it serves a good purpose.
All precepts can be violated once one has crossed the stream. It's from Buddha's own boat analogy, as the awakened one is beyond merit and demerit. It's more or less the same realization Plato had about the noble lie, that nothing discrete, not even the precepts, are good or bad in and of themselves.
>Bhikku Bhodi also teaches the “No-self” doctrine, stating that the Buddha taught there was ontologically no-self.
I have his translations, and I don't recall this being said in any of his commentaries on anatta. His commentaries in the endnotes are relatively extensive as well. Usually at least a few paragraphs for each sutta in total.

[Anonymous No.21757376]

>>21752943
>>21753393
>Anointed in Sri Lanka
Dropped.

[Anonymous No.21757384]

>>21757376
why you hate them? they make nice tea in Ceylon

[Anonymous No.21757400]

>>21757373
>>All precepts can be violated once one has crossed the stream. It's from Buddha's own boat analogy, as the awakened one is beyond merit and demerit. It's more or less the same realization Plato had about the noble lie, that nothing discrete, not even the precepts, are good or bad in and of themselves.
no, that's not correct at all.
the Arahats follow the ten fold paths and they famously can't do 9 things
and if they break the rules they are excommunicated like non-enlightened monks.


So there are some rules for which an infringement is a '' light offense'' and there are more serious infringements


>The four transgressions which incur a Parajika, the penalty of automatic disrobal, are as follows:

Engaging in sexual intercourse with another being of either sex.
Stealing something of value (which includes smuggling, cheating or deliberately avoiding payment of a tax).
Purposely killing a human being or encouraging him or her to commit suicide (this includes inciting another to murder somebody and it also includes convincing a woman to have an abortion.
Boasting that one has realised a high spiritual attainment, knowing that one is lying. For example, claiming to be enlightened, to be Maitreya Buddha, to have entered Jhana (deep meditation-ecstasy) or that one can read minds when one knows that one hasn’t reached any of these states.

https://bswa.org/teaching/vinaya-four-disrobing-offences/


for the 9 things fully enlightened people never do are:
>(a) Nine practices not indulged in by Arahats An Arahat does not intentionally take the life of a being, does not take, with the in- tention of stealing, what is not given; does not engage in se- xual intercourse, does not speak what is not true knowing that it is not true, does not enjoy the pleasures of the senses; is not biased through favouritism, through hatred, through delusion or through fear (para 7).
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/guide-to-tipitaka/d/doc3470.html

[Anonymous No.21757406]

>>21757373
>All precepts can be violated once one has crossed the stream.

[Anonymous No.21757407]

Bottom line for this thread is to read from Ajahn Thanissaro for genuine orthodox Theravada in english (Thai Forest School)
accesstoinsight.org
dhammatalks.org

[Anonymous No.21757418]

>>21754846
>>21757373
>>21757400
>>21757406
it was kind of cool the guy who wrote The Mind Illuminated cheating on his wife with 10 different prostitutes at 85 years, it really makes you think what kind of sexual potency you may get from following his advice, i really liked the guy despite the controversy, he seemed honest, but a bit hard to take the method seriously if after finishing it at 85 years old you still need 10 prostitutes to satiate your unstoppable sexual hunger...

[Anonymous No.21757454]

>>21757418
>CULO d'ASSa
I will read your book.

[Anonymous No.21757669]

>>21757418
>cheating on his wife with 10 different prostitutes at 85 years
Based and Tantrapilled

[Anonymous No.21758029]

>>21757258
>westerner
disregarded

[Anonymous No.21758065]

>>21757418
hes just mirroring asangas works in this book
anyway what stage are you anons at

[Anonymous No.21758730]

>>21757253
none of those thing implies a self

[Anonymous No.21759347]

I know the guy who wrote it personally, very good book. Is literally what the buddha said translated by one of the only guys who knows the language.

[Anonymous No.21759354]

>>21754091
What is wrong with the location of his monastery

[Anonymous No.21759365]

>>21758029
He spends most of his time abroad, one of the smartest guys I've ever met and I am a theoretical physics grad student at a top university in the world. He is severely autistic but incredibly based. You will not have any luck finding anyone who can translate poli even a quarter as proficiently as Bhikkhu Bodhi. Reactions like this are retarded and speak to a core character flaw that causes you to be a shut in loser with no friends.

[Anonymous No.21759410]

>>21757669
Only if he didn't cum

[Anonymous No.21759648]

>>21752943
>pewdiepie

[Anonymous No.21759659]

>>21759648
Based on what he reads, he probably browses here or did once.

[Anonymous No.21760607]

>>21757373
>All precepts can be violated once one has crossed the stream

Dude

[Anonymous No.21760677]

>>21754091
He also advocates for abortion...

[Anonymous No.21760693]

>>21757373
>All precepts can be violated once one has crossed the stream.
Yeah, pal, but (you) haven't crossed that stream, and neither has Bh. Bodhi. You don't get to "reverse engineer" awakening. And if you are not strong enough to keep the precepts, just break them through your weakness and accept your failure at keeping them. Don't pretend your failure and weakness are somehow in imitation of enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.21761045]

>>21757384
I don't know shit about Buddhism, but my impression so far is that Sri Lanka seems to be the place for anointing-mills. Makes me question the value and authority of it.

[Anonymous No.21761048]

>>21753339
Just curious, what is this jewish flair you are speaking of?

[Anonymous No.21761101]

>>21761048
Bhikku Bodhi has this sort of 'activist' mindset when it comes to Buddhism. 'Tikkun olam' kinda deal (read: Judaic heal the world). He supports the ordaining of bhikkunis (Theravada nun order died out a long time ago/it's contra tradition). He spoke at the UN.
Idk, I find him too chummy with the global western buddhist establishment. What I'm saying is he's very progressive for a high level Theravada monk. I'm sure he's a smart dude, but I'd rather learn about an Indo European tradition from a monk with an Indo European background.
In comparison, Thanissaro Bhikku spent most of his monkhood as a forest monk in Thailand then established his monastery in California (he was supposed to become the next head of the illustruous Dhammayut tradition in Thailand but decided not to because of Thai politics) and just purely teaches dhamma, writing books, translating pali texts, giving and publishing lectures everyday (they're on youtube)--all for free. He supports not-self instead of no-self/soullessness. Rejects the possibility for women to ordain as per rules and tradition. Most importantly, he's one of the few high level buddhist monks who criticized the influence of German Romanticism in Buddhism in the West.
I imagine Bodhi in his young adult years as a campus activist trying to promote social justice, while I know Thanissaro was not very attracted to student activism as he said something about him not liking being a part of a mass or something along those lines. The guy is a smart independent thinker with integrity. I imagine the Buddha to be more of a 'recluse' like him than the socially active Bodhi.
Also, do the physiognomy check on both guys. Just my opinion.

[Anonymous No.21761142]

>>21761101
>Rejects the possibility for women to ordain as per rules and tradition
based

[Anonymous No.21761180]

>>21761101
You mentioned the concept of tikkun olam but I don't see how 'socially engaged' buddhism (to call it that) is particularly jewish. Thich Nhat Hanh for example was like that also, and I'm sure you could find a lot of progressive buddhists from Indo-Aryan stock as well.

I also fail to see what's Indo-European about the buddhist doctrine itself.

[Anonymous No.21761244]

>>21761180
First of all, excuse me for phoneposting all this time, I'm still fixing my computer.
Thich Nhat Hanh does not come from a Theravada background (He's a viet zen monk), and I can understand a person from a Mahayana background being socially engaged, its kind of a part of the religion after all--bodhisatva vow and all. A theravada monk being socially engaged is a bit unusual, which is why I suspect Bodhi's biology or upbringing as a Jewish person might have contributed strongly to his inclinations.
>I also fail to see what's Indo-European about the buddhist doctrine itself.
This is a bit of a meme but go ahead and read Evola's Doctrine of Awakening. It's short and fascinating, great book. It's approved by the Pali Text Society if you're worried that Evola might be too biased somewhat.

[Anonymous No.21761360]

>>21757286
>teaching that God is actually ugly, does evil and makes false judgements unlike the damn papists
sounds based

[Anonymous No.21761368]

>>21761244

it's funny that you mention TDOA, it was the first book I read about Pali buddhism a couple of years ago. I just reread the second chapter about the Aryanness of the doctrine, but I do not think Evola is particularly convincing that early Buddhism is essentially Indo-Aryan.

Leaving aside discussions about the ethnic admixture of the buddha himself, Evola gives very few arguments for the supposed connection between Indo-Aryan "religion" (for lack of a better term) and Early Buddhism. While it is true that early Vedic religion/ mythology is Indo-European in nature, it shows shows virtually no similarities to the much later Pali doctrine. It has even been suggested that meditative practices originate from Dravidian culture. In any case, Pali Buddhism certainly is not some 'pure' Indo-Aryan type of religiosity that has later been corrupted by ethnic admixture between the Aryans and the native inhabitants.

[Anonymous No.21761380]

>>21761368
For Evola aryan is a codeword for things that he personally likes

[Anonymous No.21761401]

>>21761101
yeah but is this in his translation work?

[Anonymous No.21761418]

you can watch this video about the origin of the buddha

https://youtu.be/IszdlMn3Yb4?t=1115

[Anonymous No.21761511]

>>21761368
Fair enough. Buddhism is really old and there have been multiple interpretations of it throughout the ages. I can live with that.
>>21761401
His translation's fine as far as I remember. You have to pay for it though--which is a tad bit jewy.
*I jest*
Thanissaro's free.

[Anonymous No.21761515]

>>21761368
For Evola the word "Aryan" primarily means a patriarchal and transcendent spirituality. For example in Doctrine of Awakening he often refers to the Buddhist ideal of englightenment as "Olympian".

I think he got this from Johann Jakob Bachofen's concept of prehistoric matriarchy, which is more orientated towards the material world with a focus on generation/procreation, being replaced by Indo-European patriarchal spirituality which seeks detachment.

He also probably wanted to emphasise Buddhism's relevance for warriors, like stating that the Buddha was a Kshatriya and the chapter on Zen Buddhism practiced by the samurai. He did publish the book in the middle of the war in 1943 after all.

[Anonymous No.21762240]

>>21761180
>I also fail to see what's Indo-European about the buddhist doctrine itself.
The buddha came precisely after the fall of Vedic religion (which was much closer to archaic Roman religion than to later Hinduism). Its spirit is almost the diametrical opposite to it. Vedism was already dead and only reduced to an empty ritualism by the time of the brahmanas, then came the doctrine of transmigration.

[Anonymous No.21762463]

>>21754042
does he understand what he reads though

[Anonymous No.21762488]

>>21761045
theravada is literally ceylon buddhism

[Anonymous No.21762559]

>>21753339
regarldess of his jewish heritage he seems to be a legit believer in buddhism but there are moments that modern ideology steps past that belief but his translations and academic work is sound even if there is contention between definitions in different subsects of theravada

[Anonymous No.21762621]

>>21753393
it's all so tiresome...

[Anonymous No.21762731]

>>21762559
Correct, see my previous replies.
>>21761101
>>21761244
>>21761511

[Anonymous No.21762754]

>>21757258
why are his teeth so long

[Anonymous No.21762777]

>>21752943
Who the fuck is pewdiepie ?

[Anonymous No.21762802]

>>21757286
>saying they are the true basis of Christianity teaching that God is actually ugly, does evil and makes false judgements unlike the damn papists saying God follows the transcendentals.
Sounds like Calvinism.

[Anonymous No.21762813]

>>21762802
It is.

[Anonymous No.21762816]

https://youtu.be/iGJtiHLpRhs
A sample for those curious in one of the main ways on how Ajahn Thanissaro delivers the dhamma. He has a very pleasant voice, like a lion's. I feel like he's not mentioned enough in /lit/ buddhist discussions so allow me to shill more of him in this thread.

[Anonymous No.21762837]

>>21762240
>Vedism was already dead and only reduced to an empty ritualism by the time of the brahmanas, then came the doctrine of transmigration.
Transmigration appears in the pre-Buddhist Upanishads and is strongly hinted at in the pre-Upanishad Vedic layers. Nobody knows what Vedic religion was like at the time of 900-600 BC, saying "it was dead and ritualism" is just a self-serving narrative with no hard evidence supporting it. People say it because they want it to be true and not because of any evidence

[Anonymous No.21763044]

>>21761101
That's a whole lot of... feminine... crab bucketing just to say you prefer one style of proselytizing to the other. If you'rd not even taking issue with one translation vs the other it's just a matter of your personality.

[Anonymous No.21763480]

>>21762837
They say it because the Rigveda is completely opposed to everything that came after. The belief in eternal life in the company of the uber-god Mitra-Varuna while Indra went on his merry way chopping demons up and getting drunk on soma were long gone by the time of the first upanishads.

[Anonymous No.21763497]

>>21759365
>I am a theoretical physics grad student at a top university in the world
gross

[Anonymous No.21764521]

>>21754846>>21755173>>21753339


>Bhikku Bhodi also teaches the “No-self” doctrine, stating that the Buddha taught there was ontologically no-self. Thanissaro makes a strong case for the Not-self discourse not being a statement of ontology, but rather a discourse of mental strategy(“seeing phenomena as not-self).
>https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/NobleStrategy/Section0014.html
but there is no self in any meaningful realm of life. In all those realms, there is nothing worth calling a self. And nirvana is not self too. and it's disconnected from those realms.
This means there is 0 self anywhere.

[Anonymous No.21764646]

>>21763044
>That's a whole lot of... feminine... crab bucketing
What are you even on about? Are you homosexual by any chance?
>If you'rd not even taking issue with one translation vs the other it's just a matter of your personality.
I never said anything against Bhikku Bodhi's translations. I want people to read the primary texts and let them know that Thanissaro's translations exist. I've been on /lit/ long enough to know that people get turned off by Bodhi because of his Jewish background (and I believe it shows in how he carries himself somewhat), I am providing an alternative and a solution for those who are instinctually not-jewish.

[Anonymous No.21764685]

>>21761244
>A theravada monk being socially engaged is a bit unusual
no i snot, Theravada monks are integral parts of society, wedding, funerals, dhamma talks, political movements etc

[Anonymous No.21765398]

>>21764521
indeed, i think what the people against the "no-self ontology " are against is the reification of the no-self, that is, the no-self is on itself a way of solving the reification of the experiential self into an ontological self, but now a new danger arise in which the no-self itself itself could be reified
i personally believe that you can have an ontologgy of non-self without reifing the concept tho,but some people can really develop nihilistic tendencies if they don't see the anatta doctrine correctly and a lot of people need to think about something beyond the phenomenical experience to practice the path, that's why the whole notion of boddhicitt awas created, to give some practicioner something to focus on, if the notion of no self was to abstract and hard to grasp

[Anonymous No.21765467]

The only person worth listening to or reading (apart from the Suttas) on Dhamma is Ajahn Nyanamoli at Hillside Hermitage.

https://www.youtube.com/@HillsideHermitage

[Anonymous No.21765485]

"What do you think, monks — Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord." - SN 22.59

In other words, anything inaccessible to our intentions, uncontrollable, and hence impermanent (i.e. anicca) will automatically be regarded as unsafe, dangerous, not to be desired (dukkha). Anything regarded as dangerous and undesirable will automatically be regarded as not mine, not for me, not what I am (anatta).

[Anonymous No.21766163]

It's Chan/Pure Land for me. It would be hard for me to awaken in this life on my own power. Amitabha ensures that all who recite his name will be taken to the Western Pure Land to become Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. At the same time, it would be unwise to rely only on the power of Amitabha when I can cultivate a small amount, and so Chan directs the mind to lucidity and understanding.

[Anonymous No.21766170]

>>21766163
Namu Amida Butsu

[Anonymous No.21766178]

>>21761101
Who cares if a person is Jewish? The Buddha taught us not to judge a person based on anything but their aspirations for enlightenment, which denotes their moral character. And who cares if Bhikshunni are ordained in the Theravadan tradition? The reasons for it not being so are largely patriarchal in nature and amount to BS about the lineage dying out. China had the order of nuns almost die out several times in it's long history, and the Bhikshunni always came back in time.
>>21766170
Namo Amituofo. Are you Jodo Shu or Shinshu by chance? Maybe Jishu?

[Anonymous No.21766352]

Any translation can work if you have a Sangha or teacher, or even just the ability to sensibly interpret things yourself.

[Anonymous No.21766533]

>>21766163
I've actually been considering Buddhism for quite some time now. Been struggling to find a particular school of thought to follow but I've been particularly interested in Pure Land Buddhism and Chan/Zen. Do you know of any resources or scriptures I could read to understand more about them? Thanks.

[Anonymous No.21766562]

>>21766533
isn't pure land buddhism just christianity adapted for asians?

[Anonymous No.21766600]

>>21763480
>They say it because the Rigveda is completely opposed to everything that came after.
Incorrect, they’re not opposed at all. The two earlier and later portions of the Vedic text dont contradict each other but they addresses different concerns of life (kharma-khanda vs jnana-khanda). The early Vedic layers dont contradict the doctrine of moksha and they dont say that heaven is more important than moksha, so they are not at odds.

>The belief in eternal life in the company of the uber-god Mitra-Varuna while Indra went on his merry way chopping demons up and getting drunk on soma were long gone by the time of the first upanishads.
No, some of those same characters like Indra appear in the Upanishads and they gain enlightenment through knowledge of the Self. That’s not ‘opposed’ to earlier stories wherein Indra gets drunk etc, in the same way that a man getting drunk as a youth is not “opposed” to him becoming a religious hermit decades later. The belief that you can remain with celestial beings in heaven is still included in the Upanishads since they talk about Brahmaloka (heaven) as a place that can be reached even without moksha. The Upanishads dont negate or contradict the earlier Vedic layers, they just criticize people who think that the Vedic rituals lead to the highest aim of man (moksha), which the Vedas never claimed to begin with.

[Anonymous No.21766617]

>>21766533
Yes I do. Give me a moment and I'll type it all up.

[Anonymous No.21766622]

>>21766562
It's a misconception that Pure Land Buddhism is simply Christianity. For example, the two views on life after death are starkly different. Christians believe in an eternal heaven that never changes. Pure Land Buddhists believe that when they die they go to the Pure Land, which is basically a Bodhisattva Sangha and college. When one goes there, one stays for a while, obtains their Bodhi Mind, and then leave to become Buddhas and high level Bodhisattvas and have their own Pure Lands.

[Anonymous No.21766682]

>>21766533
https://uhpress.hawaii.edu/title/chinese-pure-land-buddhism-understanding-a-tradition-of-practice/
This book gives a foundation for Chinese practices. Chinese Pure Land is not an independent school like in Japan, but rather is a practice diffused into other schools, which themselves incorporate the teachings of other sects. For example, City of Ten Thousand Buddhas is a temple in the US that is Chan/Pure Land/Huayan with slight elements of Tangmi.
http://www.cttbusa.org/
This is their website which offers free sutra and dharma talks. They also have a very large Youtube channel full of dharma talks.
https://www.amitabha-gallery.org/
This is Venerable Wuling's website, she is an ordained Bhikkshuni from Venerable Chin Kung, who recently passed.
There's also Fo Guang Shan, they're another lineage that offers dharma talks and free texts on their website.
https://www.fgsitc.org/chanting-texts/

[Anonymous No.21766702]

>>21766533
As for scriptures, https://www.bdkamerica.org/
offers free sutras from many lineages, but specifically I would focus on The Three Pure Land Sutras for now. Starting with the Shorter Amitabha Sutra will be easier for you, then going to the Longer Amitabha Sutra (Infinite Life Sutra), and then finally the Visualization Sutra. There are good commentaries to read on those sutras, such as Chin Kung's commentary on the Infinite Life Sutra, or Mind Seal of the Buddhas for a commentary on the Amitabha Sutra.

[Anonymous No.21766761]

>>21766617
>>21766682
>>21766702
Thank you very much friend, you've been a great help to me.

[Anonymous No.21766772]

>>21766761
You're welcome.

[Anonymous No.21766781]

>>21766761
Also if you have any further questions let me know, I'm somewhat knowledgeable about Chinese Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.21766827]

>>21764646
again you've pointed to nothing of substance in the translations and rather continue to hiss "I don't like her hair" or "ewww look at her outfit." I hope you are reborn as an actual male next round

[Anonymous No.21766952]

>>21752943
I'm still in awe to this day. I'm the one that told Pewdiepie to read this. He asked for book recommendations back on Twitter and I was the one who recommended this book to him.

[Anonymous No.21766966]

>>21766952
much merit to you t b h keep spreading the authentic dhamma

[Anonymous No.21767407]

What is sexually morality like in Buddhism? I ask this because when I think of Buddhist country I think Thailand and when I think Thailand I think sexxxxxooooo.

[Anonymous No.21767424]

>>21767407
for a monk is abstaining from sex, for a lay person is abstaining from raping someone

[Anonymous No.21767465]

>>21764521
>that means there is 0 self anywhere

No it doesn’t anon. If there weren’t any self, or agent that could experience nirvana it would make the entire path meaningless, the whole idea that any effort you could make- would become meaningless. The Buddha never took a stance on whether or not there was an ontological self, in his view there wasn’t a point in adopting that idea(to put an end to suffering) but he didn’t refute it either.

[Anonymous No.21767595]

>>21767465
>agent
Who says that you're one agent? That's the problem that you're missing: Anatman isn't "ACKTHYUYUALLY IF YOU LOOK REALLY HARD THERE'S REALLY AN ATMAN", it's an entirely separate system from the existence of an Atman. It's a system where Atmans aren't "not real", they're just incoherent.

[Anonymous No.21767798]

>>21762754
his teeth make him look like rabbit
rabbit represents the subtle distraction in meditation practice
therefore maybe he represents subtle distraction from the study of true dharma

[Anonymous No.21768263]

>>21767465
>or agent that could experience nirvana it would make the entire path meaningless,
that already is impliying nirvana is a thing, something "your self" can have or interact with, thus making nirvana another form of phenomena, and nirvana is that which is beyond phenomena, is better to think of nirvana as a transformation and not as a place or thing, since that lead you into the traps of language, and every language needs a "self" to articulate meaning, nirvana is that which is beyond language and beyond the self (gate gate para gate para sam gate boddhi svaha)

[Anonymous No.21768455]

>>21766600
Not that anon but how do hindus account for the change from old school IE-centric polytheism to Brahman-centric yogic traditions devoted to self and mind? Simply claiming 'they just evolved bro' doesn't really cut it, the Veda Samhitas only had a handful of lines that 'could' be interpreted as the germs of Upanishads, but there is no single thread connecting the two and there's no way to explain the sudden change in emphasis in itself, something must have urged them to rethink old paganism.

[Anonymous No.21768549]

>>21768455
>something must have urged them to rethink old paganism
a thousand years of brahmin breaking by buddhist bulls

[Anonymous No.21768781]

>>21766600
>No, some of those same characters like Indra appear in the Upanishads and they gain enlightenment through knowledge of the Self. That’s not ‘opposed’ to earlier stories wherein Indra gets drunk etc, in the same way that a man getting drunk as a youth is not “opposed” to him becoming a religious hermit decades later.
that's a fallacy of false analogy, it's like saying that if someone now write a novel about sir Galahad where he becames trans that's the same Galahad from the arthuric cycle just because in real life some soldiers turn trans, that's complete noesense,if someone write a queer version of Galahad that's clearly a deconstruction of the character and the intentions are different from the original character, seeing how(mythological) character change trought history is a clear sign of cultural changes in a society, this is anthropology 101

[Anonymous No.21769010]

>>21767465
again the observation is that there is nothing worth calling a self in any realm of life, ie the formless realm is devoid of anything worth calling self, same for the form realm same for the desire realm. No matter what happens in those realms, there is no self in those.
Outside of that, there is nibanna and that's not wroth calling the self.

So if there is indeed some ontological self, then it is outside 1/ nibanna, 2/ any realm containing life.

If there is this self, you can't influence it and it doesnt influence you. At this point the self is completely useless.
And even worse, the self, the knowledge about the self, being influenced by the self or even influencing the self are not needed to end suffering. So the self is at best an intellectual craving, and it's not even required to reach the buddhist goal.

[Anonymous No.21769014]

>>21766952
that's pretty good
did he comment on the book in one of his videos?

[Anonymous No.21769056]

>>21766600>>21762837
The point is that it is known what the hindus talked about before history went dark in east india between the pillars of Ahsoka and a few centuries before hat.
If the Hindus can't stand the critics, they should have talked at length in the Vedas about rebirth karma, meditation and ending suffering. It turns out they didn't.
For thousands of years brahmins were obsessed with rituals and mantras and killing animals, and they never talked about rebirth, karma meditation and ending suffering.

And in The Upanishads chandogya and Brhadaranyaka, the brahmins themselves say that rebirth and karma are theories not known to them and they are created by non-brahmins outside of the brahminical societies.

[Anonymous No.21769059]

>>21752943
Why would you read Buddhist texts if you're not Buddhist
>le...wisdom!
Shut the fuck up

[Anonymous No.21769060]

>>21769056
>the brahmins themselves say that rebirth and karma are theories not known to them and they are created by non-brahmins outside of the brahminical societies.
Can you give citations of this? I read them and don't remember this

[Anonymous No.21769071]

>>21766533
Take a look at Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki, he's the single best "popular" (although he is not really all that popular) exponent of zen I have encountered. I'd recommend The Zen Doctrine of Mind to begin with. He has some other works comparing Christian Mysticism (mainly Eckhart) with zen, but these are really just sidenotes to his main exposition of zen.

[Anonymous No.21769072]

>>21759354
it's in Israel are you trying to troll?

[Anonymous No.21769230]

>>21767465
>The Buddha never took a stance on whether or not there was an ontological self,
yes he did, if you read the Malunkyovada sutta carefully you realise that what the buddha said is that the self as a category is useless, that's why he refue to answer about the nature of self, no self, eternity and extintion, because all those categories are conceptualy empty, they don't have any real meaning in the real world and only lead you to metaphysical speculation, Buddha not answering about the self doesn't mean he let the door open for a "real self" it means that the whole concept of self doesn't make any sense, what buddha is saying is deeper that negating an ontology of the self, he's negating the whole conceptual framing of that type of metaphysic,self,not-self, neither or both, all those options are rational masturbation and don't reflect any aspect of the real, spiritual human experience

[Anonymous No.21769236]

>>21769230
>f you read the Malunkyovada sutta carefully you realise that what the buddha said is that the self as a category is useless
If that were the case then the anatta doctrine would not exist.

[Anonymous No.21769237]

>>21769071
He was popular in his day but should not be confused with representing some sort of pop-spirituality—although he was in bed with theosophists. His translation and commentary on the Lankavatara sutra is worth a read.

[Anonymous No.21769242]

>>21769237
>although he was in bed with theosophists.
Having contact with them does not mean you are in bed with them. If you read through most of his work, there is almost no discernible influence from that quarter.

[Anonymous No.21769275]

>>21769056
>And in The Upanishads chandogya and Brhadaranyaka, the brahmins themselves say that rebirth and karma are theories not known to them and they are created by non-brahmins outside of the brahminical societies.
That’s false. The knowledge is described in the Upanishads as being transmitted by Kshatriyas (warrior caste) at some point, who are twice-born members of the caste system and within Vedic society. The same Upanishads also assert a line of teachers passing this knowledge down going all the way back to Brahma. So they basically say that this teaching which comes from Vedic sages also was transmitted by Kshatriyas at some point and they don’t imply it’s non-Vedic in the slightest. Furthermore if I recall correctly this knowledge is not said to be rebirth and karma specifically but im pretty sure its in relation to knowledge of the Self, Atma-Vidya
> If the Hindus can't stand the critics, they should have talked at length in the Vedas about rebirth karma, meditation and ending suffering. It turns out they didn't.
They do explicitly in the Upanishad portion of the Vedas, and there are lines in the earlier portions of the Veda which strongly hint at transmigration etc as well, books have been written on this. The two portions of the Vedas have these two different focuses anyway because they address multiple aspects of humanly life and not just the spiritual path of the monk.

[Anonymous No.21769287]

>>21768781
> that's a fallacy of false analogy
No its not and that’s a strained example. There is nothing that shows any difference of intent whatsoever between the Vedas and Upanishads. Nothing in the early vedic layers says “this is the definitive teaching, ignore anything else”, so its really groundless and begging the question to automatically take the religious hymns in one part of a religious scripture as expressing some intent that another part disagrees with, the hymns themselves dont suggest anything like this, even in the early Vedic layers there are plenty of verses suggesting a transcendent One beyond particular dieties.

[Anonymous No.21769300]

>>21761515
Where else will I read this life of discussion but /lit/?

[Anonymous No.21769328]

Thervada = Judaism

Mahayana = Christianity

Zen = Mormonism

Accurate?

[Anonymous No.21769375]

>>21769328
Not at all

[Anonymous No.21769470]

>>21769328
Hinduism:Judaism
Christianity before the schism:early Budhhism
Catholicism:Theravada
Protestantism:Mahayana
Quakers:Zen

[Anonymous No.21769486]

>>21769287
>There is nothing that shows any difference of intent whatsoever between the Vedas and Upanishads.
the change in character of most gods is, just like the change in character in greek gods shows how the culture was changing from a warrior aristocracy to a republic
again anthropology 101

[Anonymous No.21769491]

>>21769236
that's what the anatta doctrine implies, it's designed to let you see that the self as a category is useless, it's because the self as a category don't work in reality that the anatta doctrine exist

[Anonymous No.21769661]

>>21764685
dude i'm involved in several discords on traditionalism, I think I know my shit about Buddhism more than some fucking westerner