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/lit/ - Literature

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21657476 No.21657476 [Reply] [Original]

I know he is kind of a midwit but he does have a point. If you compare it to The Fly which is similar in many ways, it lacks any explanation and seems unfinished and the characters behave unrealistically. No one if turned into a bug would start panicking about how they will get to work on time

>> No.21657483

It's about how when you're a man and can't work/provide nobody cares about you, you're just a parasite nobody wants to deal with

>> No.21657491

>>21657483
But you’re not literally a bug

>> No.21657500

>>21657491
It's a story you dumbass. Also The Fly is more of a "Faustian bargain" type of thing, the similarities are only superficial

>> No.21657526

Could /lit/ tell me if I'm a midwit or not?

As far as I understand it, the Metamorphosis is an allegory of the inability of true communication between two beings, exaggerated by Gregor's literal metamorphosis into another creature. As a bug, he can't convey his internal state of being to his family, but the point is that he never could. Nobody can.

>> No.21657528

>No one if turned into a bug would start panicking about how they will get to work on time
It's about a man who has become a bug(man)
Meaning that his human spirit has been so thoroughly crushed by the thumb of the system that he might as well be an insect, which is why he's panicking about getting to work on time.

>> No.21657775

>>21657476
How did your Language Arts teachers fail to teach you what a metaphor was?!

>>21657526
I think your analysis could use some work. Themes are usually referenced and repeated through the story. I don't see a lot of references to communication. I do however see a lot of references to working and his place in the family...

>> No.21657787

>>21657476
He's just jealous that even with 170 IQ, he can't write as well as Kafka

>> No.21657809

>>21657476
> If you compare it to The Fly which is similar in many ways, it lacks any explanation and seems unfinished and the characters behave unrealistically.
Nice bait

>> No.21657813

>>21657491
Ungeziefer can mean bug or vermin.
A man who is a reliable provider is often known as a workhorse. Once you transition from a boy to a man your role is clear. So what is a man who can't bring home the bacon?

>> No.21657855

I think the Metamorphosis is a work of art because it accepts an incredible amount of interpretations.
A few anons have already shared their interpretations, and more will, but no two of them will be the same. That's the beauty of Metamorphosis.

>> No.21658534

>>21657483
Yeah. Dawkins is just being a literal-minded dipshit. What really sells the themes of the story is the younger sister. She is going through puberty and develops an adult hard-headedness about her future while the brother stagnates, depriving the protagonist of the one person in his life who valued him despite his failure. Really not that hard to get for the average person, I think.

>> No.21658537

>>21657491
what is a metaphor?

>> No.21658556

>>21657476
>I know he is kind of a midwit
And so are you with a post like that

>> No.21658585

The problem with the story is that expressionism in literature is dated. It’s not something you can hold against Kafka, but it is an issue.

>> No.21658590

>>21657476
>this work produced a lot of debate and interpretations of its meaning
>THIS IS BAD JUST TELL WHY ITS GUD
Stemcucks should be banned from reading
Sit in your fucking basements and make me a new iPhone

>> No.21658695

>>21657476
The irony is that Dawkins has more in common with Gregor Samsa than he will ever realise: he is a futile man, his work does not bring any greater satisfaction and he is uprooted from his livelihood because the money and the process by which he acquires it are completely detached. Dawkins should - if he has humanity - feel the same sense of dread and shame, and perhaps he does, even if he has no family.

>> No.21658841
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21658841

>>21657476
Boomer celebrity goes to Twitter, BOOM, brain instantly becomes completely smooth. Many such cases!

>> No.21659163

>>21657476
Wow, what a quick and sure way to show the world you're a moron.

>> No.21659857

>>21657476
He wants an empirically provable meaning which also flatters his pre existing beliefs

>> No.21659866

>>21657476
>I don't get it or enjoy it, so it must be bad
Stick to writing bad polemics and ethology.

>> No.21659873

>>21657476
I don't even have an axe to grind with that guy, but that's irredeemably retarded.
Not even the most braindead mong on /sffg/ would approach a work of literature like that, thinking it's necessary to identify and label its specific genre so he can know what to make of it.
What an utter spacker

>> No.21659886
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21659886

>>21657855
>I think the Metamorphosis is a work of art because it accepts an incredible amount of interpretations.
Following that logic, a string of complete nonsense, literally just random words without any rhyme or reason, is the perfect work of art, because it can fit infinite interpretations.
>finnegan's wake
Case in point
Much the opposite, true art is something that succeeds in delivering a singular, ultimate, canonical message. Author's vision undistilled by vagueness. Do not show, DO tell!
>the bible
Case in point

>but anon, bibble does get misinterpreted
True, due to the fact that man thinks it has a hidden meaning. It doesn't. You read the Bible literally, as written, and there you have, a single message. A unified theme.

>> No.21659895

>>21657476
Kafka is popular because his stories operate on a sort of nightmare logic where things kind of make sense but not really. The Metamorphosis in particular hits on a feeling of hopelessness and a fear that our loved ones will turn on us for reasons beyond our control. The main character turning into a bug is not the point of the story.

tl;dr: dumbasses who read for plot don't understand the purpose of real literature. Now tell me how Shakespeare is bad because his stories have plot holes.

>> No.21659899

I feel so bad for Gregor bros :(
Why is family so mean to him

>> No.21659904

>>21657476
>No one if turned into a bug would start panicking about how they will get to work on time
It's a work about the absurd, just like most of Kafka's works. It doesn't have to make logical sense, just convey an idea, story, archetype or something similar. Hardcore STEMcels are such fucking midwits with narrow minds; it's unbelievable.

>> No.21659922

>>21657476
Who is this idiot? What has he written?

>> No.21659999

>>21659904
>it doesn’t have to make sense
Postmodernism in a nutshell, folks

>> No.21660055

>>21659904
But why is it a classic though?

>> No.21660086

>>21657476

This one time I had a nice red-headed co-worker (and technically subordinate at that point), and for some reason she was talking about the Metamorphosis with someone else. She then made a point of asking me what the point of the story was. Rather than indicating jewish self-hatred (as one angle among others), I gave a shallower, professionally acceptable response that it was a kind of body horror, and if you like that sort of thing you should watch The Fly with Jeff Goldblum. She seemed to like the suggestion.

Some months later, after she quit and was no longer an employee, she texted me out of the blue and unironically asked my opinion on Dostoevsky. I think she wanted to read The Idiot, I said I couldn't say, had only read C&P, BK and NFU. The exchange concluded with thanks, her mentioning that I was "the only person she knew of who might possibly have read him". Of course I didn't think to do anything with it.

>> No.21660095

>>21660086
Phil?

>> No.21660117

>>21657787
That just shows how intellectuals usually only excel in one area because Metamorphosis is Sophmore High School type crap.

>> No.21660139

>>21657476
Is there any greater sign of being a vulgar pleb than demanding that a work of art always has one singular, simple, clearcut meaning and interpretation?

He's basically complaining the story is too Kafkaesque.

>> No.21660182

>>21659904
>It is supposed to be bad, guys. You just don't get it.

>> No.21660191

>>21660055
Something stemfags will never truly grasp: Fun things are fun.

>> No.21660195

>>21660191
>He was already so far along that when he rocked more strongly he could hardly keep his balance, and very soon he would have to commit himself, because in five minutes it would be a quarter past seven--when the doorbell rang. "It's someone from the firm," he said to himself and almost froze, while his little legs only danced more quickly. For a moment everything remained quiet. "They're not going to answer," Gregor said to himself, captivated by some senseless hope. But then, of course, the maid went to the door as usual with her firm stride and opened up. Gregor only had to hear the visitor's first word of greeting to know who it was--the office manager himself. Why was only Gregor condemned to work for a firm where at the slightest omission they immediately suspected the worst? Were all employees louts without exception, wasn't there a single loyal, dedicated worker among them who, when he had not fully utilized a few hours of the morning for the firm, was driven half-mad by pangs of conscience and was actually unable to get out of bed? Really, wouldn't it have been enough to send one of the apprentices to find out--if this prying were absolutely necessary--did the manager himself have to come, and did the whole innocent family have to be shown in this way that the investigation of this suspicious affair could be entrusted only to the intellect of the manager? And more as a result of the excitement produced in Gregor by these thoughts than as a result of any real decision, he swung himself out of bed with all his might. There was a loud thump, but it was not a real crash. The fall was broken a little by the carpet, and Gregor's back was more elastic than he had thought, which explained the not very noticeable muffled sound. Only he had not held his head carefully enough and hit it; he turned it and rubbed it on the carpet in anger and pain.
WEEEEE YIPEEE!!!!! HORRAYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO MUCH FUN!!!!

>> No.21660206

>>21660195
>posts funny passage to prove my point for me

>> No.21660210

>>21660206
HASHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA ITS SO FUNNY WE MADE YOU READ SERIOUS ADULT ESQUE PASSAGES ABHOUT BORING SHIT IN A STORY ABOUT NONSENSE THAT IS SO FUNNY BHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA&HASI*DHUASIHDHIAUDSHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHDHAHSDHASD HASYDH HA HSDH aHSD HA HHA

>> No.21660282

>upper class tosspot doesn't understand a book about feeling like an insect.
Write a book about a man who turns into a gigantic elephant, and walks around shitting all over everyone, and then he'd get it.

>> No.21660286

>>21657476
I have never seen a bigger self-own in twitter history. It is no surprise that atheists have no insight to the soul or even the ability to see the soul.

>> No.21660899

>>21660286
Never seen a bigger self-own in chan history. kafka has no soul.

>> No.21660911

>>21657855
So what you're saying the interpretations are in a sense... metamorphosing?

>> No.21660919

>>21657476
Why the fuck do you keep making this thread? There were valid response under that tweet.

>> No.21661052

>>21657528
But bugs can get to work on time every time.

>> No.21661058

>>21657528
But not if they're stuck on their back! That's why he has to roll over at the beginning.

>> No.21661229

>>21657476
>WHAT IS KAFKA'S MAGIC SYSTEM?
Americans are so unbeliavably ignorant and retard, if a famous scientist said something similar he'd get crucified in my country.

>> No.21661235

>>21660191
Video games are fun. Comic books are fun. Long texts with no point except to pretend to be deep are not

>> No.21661281

>>21661229
Dawkins is British, you're the retarded ignorant one.

>> No.21661289

>>21658695
Dawkins has contributed more to the world and to the achievement of the human race than you ever will in your pathetic existence. I would advice you read "The Selfish Gene", but I'm quite certain it would go over your head.

>> No.21661295

>>21660286
Kafka is so bad, even Kafka wanted it all destroyed

>> No.21661301

>>21657476
>range from pretentious Freudian to far-fetched feminist.
Really, that's the range? That's where the literal hundreds of scholars that wrote on Kafka all fit? Or maybe he just couldn't resist the thick alliteration. That's why it's always such a breath of fresh air to read authors like Kafka after you overconsumed modern nyt-approved prose.

>> No.21662612

>>21659999
>Kafka (3 July 1883 – 3 June 1924) was a postmodernist
Tard

>> No.21662617

>>21661235
>long texts
Metamorphosis is a novella, moron. You could read it in one sitting

>> No.21662845

>>21657476
The reason Kafka never felt comfortable publishing his work is because he knew it was a pale imitation of those who came before. And ironically the fact that it was a poor imitation is exactly the reason it did so well. It was the perfect mid-wit version of a symbolist story that halfway illiterate normies could claim they were so cool to have read.

there are literally 100+ novels from the 20 years before he wrote Metamorphosis that did the same thing but at least twice as good.

>> No.21662851

>>21661235
Yeah, that's why nobody reads Hegel or Kant for any other reason than to say they have done so. Actual good writers like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche are still a joy to read though. Serious and long intellectual works can be fun if well written.

>> No.21662853

>>21662845
if anyone would like to know which books were Kafka but better and earlier I would suggest taking a peek at basically the entire catalogue of Snuggly Books.

>> No.21662859

>>21662845
Kafka is generally considered part of the expressionist movement, not the symbolist movement. His work is not typically read as a symbolic representation of things but a representation of feelings.

>> No.21662861

>>21662612
Stirner was a postmodernist as was Nietzsche. Just because wikipedia defines an era a certain way doesn't mean there weren't pioneers before then.

>> No.21662863

>>21657491
Are you even human?

>> No.21662867

>>21662845
>there are literally 100+ novels from the 20 years before he wrote Metamorphosis that did the same thing but at least twice as good.
Name three.

>> No.21662868

>>21662853
Reading Gogol and works like The Nose would be a better direction, Dostoevsky too

>> No.21663054

>>21657476
No, he doesn't. He's the epitome of the competent scientist in his specific field that lacks basic logic capability in anything outside that narrow scope and way of thinking. A fucking tenth grader in American public high school would have a better opinion of Kafka than that bait-tier garbage tweet.

>> No.21663230

>>21662859
yea because illiterate "scholars" assign books to movements based solely on what was in vogue at the time the work was written. It's very very blatantly a symbolist piece inspired by the massive symbolist movement that was around everywhere during his formative years. What is the difference between expressionist and symbolist and how does Kafka fit that definition better than Symbolist?

The main reason they don't call him symbolist is because at the time he was getting popular expressionism was all the rage so he got pigeonholed in.
>>21662867
already did - see the entire catalog of Snuggly Books. More than 50% of what they publish is Kafka but better. but if you insist

>The Golem by Meyrink
>The King in the Golden Mask by Marcel Schwob
>The Mad King by Gustave Kahn
>Severin's Journey into the Darkness by Paul Leppin (or his short story collection Other's Paradise)
>The Soul-Drinker and Other Stories by Jean Lorrain
>The Emerald Princess by Félicien Champsaur
>The Double Star and Other Occult Fantasies by Jane De La Vaudre

thats just what I have on my bookshelf in front of me

>> No.21663250

>>21663230
I told you the difference. Expressionism is about depicting reality as it feels rather than appears to the senses (in a sense the inversion of Impressionism)

>> No.21663262

>>21663250
that sounds exactly the same as symbolism. You could not have made a better description of The Book of Monelle, the 1894 unofficial bible of the French Symbolist movement, if you tried.

>> No.21663271

>>21663262
It’s not the same as symbolism at all unless you think Dante and Eraserhead are similar works

>> No.21663308

>>21663271
you proved my point to a T about expressionism being a meme terminology of its time that got applied to works that are essentially symbolist. Your definition is literally the same definition as symbolism. I don't care what it's called but Kafka wrote that story and thought it wasn't that great because of the Symbolist books he read that would have been everywhere during his formative years.

>> No.21663707

>>21657476
All modern literature is meant to gaslight and demoralize. If it makes you feel shitty or confused or low self esteem Western Critics will love it! Because it's one step further towards enslaving your people!

>> No.21663744

>>21663308
Nah man. Expressionism isn’t about anything being symbolic of anything. There can be symbols in it but it isn’t symbolism like a Gospel parable. It’s just a depiction of feelings. If you can’t grasp that it’s your own decision and not something any literary critic occurs with. Expressionism also has art and film expressions, the warped background of the The Cabinet of Dr Caligari isn’t supposed to be a metaphor for anything

>>21663707
I think Kafka rather makes you feel like you aren’t crazy and that something really is in fact very wrong

>> No.21663749

>>21663744
Concurs* with, autocorrect

>> No.21664040

>>21663744
if you depict reality as it feels instead of how it literally is what would you call the depictions of your feelings as they relate to the real world (IE, the Cockroach)? Would you maybe say that your depictions of your feelings SYMBOLIZE your view of the real world? It's almost like the Cockroach SYMBOLIZES how Gregor feels about himself.

na, I'm probably way off base and those aren't symbols at all. He probably actually became a cockroach in his mind and walked around wondering why his antenna weren't responding. Thats gotta be it.

>> No.21664066

>>21664040
>dude letters are SYMBOLS, symbolists invented that!
>dude Homer used SYMBOLS! The French invented that

I don’t think you understand exactly what the Symbolist movement itself even was so it would seem impossible to explain this to you based on that assumption

>> No.21664401

>>21661289
That may be a true statement [although as homineming this guy says more about yourself than anyone else]

Can you please clarify how your statement refutes that R.Dawkins’ work no longer brings any satisfaction, OR how his work is detached from his livelihood and he has little to no family.

>> No.21664451

>>21657526
>Could /lit/ tell me if I'm a midwit or not?
>As far as I understand it, the Metamorphosis is an allegory
you're a midwit

>> No.21664675

>>21657476
it's just a shitpost

>> No.21664805

>>21664066
>I don’t think you understand exactly what the Symbolist movement itself

lol, I like how you're imagining some grand thematic guidelines/rules for the Symbolist movement when it's literally nothing more than a certain time period where symbols were all the rage among European writers. That's it. I can't for the life of me imagine what else you think it might be. The name is quite clear.

>> No.21664806

>>21657476
I walked away from the metamorphosis as a funny story about a guy who turns into a bug

>> No.21664828

>>21664805
Symbolism is defined in contrast to imagism and acmeism by literary critics, and these were supplanted by expressionism which was largely triggered by WWI

>> No.21664846

>>21664805
oh and to clarify. The reason there was a whole "Symbolist" movement was a thing despite symbols being a thing in literature for thousands of years is because when the Symbolist movement started it was coming off the heels of movements like Decadence and Romanticism which often focused on being as realistic as possible in their depictions with little fantastic going on's. Symbolist works had no problem having impossible fantastical scenes in their works unlike the previous styles which often felt compelled to be as banally realistic as possible.

>> No.21664856

>>21664828
so exactly like I said about works being relegated to movements based on the time period more than any specific qualities which define them as a given movement. Kafka just straight up isn't Expressionist though, whether he wrote during that time period or not.

>> No.21664870

>>21664856
never mind
>an artistic and literary movement originating in Germany at the beginning of the 20th century, which sought to express emotions rather than to represent external reality: characterized by the use of symbolism and of exaggeration and distortion

That definition is literally just synonymous with Symbolist aside from the specific time period it's assigned to though. Seems rather silly to just make a whole new name for Symbolist pieces just because WW1 happened though.

>> No.21664932
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21664932

>>21664870
This is Symbolism

>> No.21664938
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21664938

>>21664932
This is Expressionism. You mean to tell me you don’t see the massive distinction?

>> No.21665001

>>21664938
>>21664932
....I'm not even gonna try and respond if you're going to say something that dumb. If it's that impossible for you to simply write a bit differentiating the two Literary movements then I don't see what we're even doing here.

>> No.21665029

>>21665001
There is a major difference based on the fact WWI fundamentally altered how artists saw and felt about reality lol. Symbolism doesn’t capture anything like the feelings of WWI or the aftermath, in fact it totally lacks the framework to do so. Symbolism is driven by the idea our dreams can be as true as our reality whereas expressionism is that our reality itself is like a dream and you can’t wake up.

>> No.21665402

>>21662845
Kafka is literally the most original writer from 20th century.

>> No.21665407

You people would call Shakespeare a midwit if he had a twitter

>> No.21665652

>>21659886
It invites multiple strong interpretations. No matter what angle you look at it it sticks with you and that's the mark.

>> No.21665694

>>21657476
>No one if turned into a bug would start panicking about how they will get to work on time
No one turned into a bug in that book. The event/phenomenon/change that the metamorphosis symbolizes is a drastic threat to the very existence of this person, which depends upon his livelihood. I've been in a situation like this, and indeed, the first thing I panickily worried about was how I would work.

>> No.21666143

>>21657476
Why is /lit/ so obsessed with this guy.

>> No.21667194

>>21665029
> Symbolism doesn’t capture anything like the feelings of WWI or the aftermath, in fact it totally lacks the framework to do so

I just don't see it. The Metamorphisis is actually incredibly similar to Paul Leppin's works like Severin's Journey into the Dark (1914), or the short stories of Gustav Meyrink or even Bartleby the Scrivener. I could probably name another dozen authors that have all been eclipsed by the meme that is Kafka.

oh and I just checked, The Metamorphosis was first published in 1915. So about WW1 being necessary for it's framework.. I personally believe the framework you're thinking was developed by WW1 was really something that while certainly shaped a lot by the Great War had actually started with Industrialization in the 1890's

>> No.21667202

>>21666143
he was literally memed into popularity by greedy businessman looking for a dead author they could capitalize on for the most profit.

>> No.21667330

>>21667194
The Metamorphosis was intended as part of the trilogy called The Sons by Kafka, intended for one volume. The other two stories in it being the Stoker and The Judgement. Indeed these works were also closely connected in theme that Kafka would often mix up the names of the protagonists in writing them. It’s clear from the works you mentioned you have no grasp of what that common theme was. But now that you learned the work was published, of course you realize your original thesis (which is that Kafka didn’t publish The Metamorphosis because he saw it as a poor imitation of French symbolism) falls apart; I see you realized this and shifted those you see him as imitating to Germans rather than French. Kafka was indeed much more influenced by Dostoevsky and Gogol and German writers than any French writer except Flaubert. However it is clear you don’t realize the central theme of The Sons

>> No.21667348

>>21667194
>Paul Leppin's works like Severin's Journey into the Dark (1914)
just read the first pages on gutenberg. I can already tell it's very mediocre and typical for the time, everyone and their little brother published stuff with supernatural elements and vague 'weirdness' back then. If you really think this is comparable to Kafka you are either totally dead to style or desperate to namedrop some obscure and rightly forgotten scribblers. Alfred Kubin would be one of the better precursors btw. Anyway, they and something like Bartleby are only classed as similar because Kafka distilled those common elements in an unprecedented manner, so after reading him one can spot the kafkaesque in previous lit. With your wide reading you surely know Borges' essay on this.

>> No.21667355

>>21667202
Considering Kafka rose to fame posthumously in Nazi Germany being printed by a publisher for Jewish works, I’d say this characterization is ridiculous. Kafka wasn’t memes but gained critical acclaim against all odds in the worst possible climate and place for it

>> No.21667540

>>21667348
>>21667330
I was just saying French Symbolists because thats my favorite but the chain between the French in the 1890s and the German's a decade or so later seems clear. It all stems from the rejection of the extreme realist slant of the 19th century.
desu I've never read anything of Kafka, but I have a collection with Metamorphosis and other stories of his sitting in front of me and I'm just about ready to start it for once. I tried one of his short stories once, no idea which but it was so trite and generic for the time period I was never interested in anything else by him. Until now

I do find it a little funny how you called Severin's Journey mediocre and typical since thats exactly what I thought of Kafka. I'm naturally drawn to the lesser known examples of movements. I won't claim Severin is anything amazing but I enjoyed it for what it was. I will return after reading Metamorphosis

>> No.21667550

>>21667355
>being printed by a publisher for Jewish works
lol

>> No.21667558

>>21662845
But he did publish The Metamorphosis and other stories, you fucking RETARD.

>> No.21667566

>>21657476
>I cannot classify this art in my genre boxes; therefore, it is bad art

>>21657491
In a wonderful and ironic twist of fate, Dawkins and anyone who agrees with him on The Metamorphosis is.

>> No.21667573

>>21667558
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kafka
>In his will, Kafka instructed his literary executor and friend Max Brod to destroy his unfinished works, including his novels The Trial, The Castle, and Amerika, but Brod ignored these instructions, and had much of his work published.

sounds like he didn't feel comfortable publishing his work. If he came to that realization after publishing some of his stuff that just further reinforces how bad he thought his own stuff was.....

>> No.21667598

To an extent it's futile to debate literature with someone who doesn't get it. You either understand what Kafka is trying to do or you don't. A guy like Dawkins just won't understand

>> No.21667609

>>21667573
Those were novels he left unfinished. The Metamorphosis and other stories were published in his lifetime. Your retarded theory is nothing but a projection of your own inferiority complex.

>> No.21667705

>>21667609
its mentioned constantly that Kafka didn't view his own work with much regard.

>> No.21667714

>>21667705
That’s every other writer. The smartest ones impose high standards on themselves, the lesser ones are complacent, End of the day he did publish something when he was alive.

>> No.21667717

>>21667705
He sent The Judgement to his gf and said he regarded it as like his own child. Kafka was deeply attached to his work, he just wasn’t egoistical or vain about it being a masterpiece. But it was deeply important to him personally

>> No.21667723

>>21667714
Yep Tolstoy also regarded his own work as a hack’s melodrama. Generally the mind it takes to be great at art has a correspondingly high standard

>> No.21667785

>>21667714
>>21667717
ok I do understand that sentiment considering I have a story with a bunch of rubbish written sitting in front of me. I will try The Metamorphosis but if it's nothing more than a pale imitation of those who came before I will be disappointed. I still think he got memed into popularity because publishers would make more off a dead guy.