/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21653285]

Is Catholic Church the one true church founded by Jesus himself? Are there any books to help me decide if I should convert or not?

[Anonymous No.21653297]

>>21653285
So you gotta weight the pros and the cons in a situation like this
pros: nice buildings. very nice buildings, but you have to think kinda hard, if those buildings are so nice, and the catholic church is so rich, why don't they make nice buildings like that anymore?
cons: childfucking. lots and lots and lots of childfucking. tradcath-larpers get extremely angry when you mention how prominent childfucking is in their religion, and that's really a bad way of handling it, as everyone agrees childfucking is bad, and the strategy of pretending like it isnt that bad hasnt worked for the catholic church for 80 years or so by now.

[Anonymous No.21653307]

Quick history:
-judaism=made by jews for jews
-christianity=made by jews for goyims, hence the meme of universality and lack of circumcision to please greek goys lol
-islam=hijack of judaism by random arabs for goat fuckers
-protestantism=hijack of christianity by goy merchants for goy merchants
-atheism=universal judaism for goy wageslaves by jewish and goy merchants from the NL and UK mostly, and freemasons from France and the USA secondly

[Anonymous No.21653359]

>>21653285
The Catholic Church is a ponzi scheme run by the gay mafia

[Anonymous No.21653369]

>>21653285
Catholic Church has been subverted by (((freemasons))) and communists.

[Anonymous No.21653377]

>>21653285
Salvation comes through Christ, not the Church. Why would we free ourselves of the law and then create another one

>>21653307
Ignorant

[Anonymous No.21653425]

>>21653285
>yes, even though it suffers temporal troubles, these prove its truth
>yes, but reason is more effective than books

[Anonymous No.21653460]

>>21653297
I don't get why catholic priests get all the flak for " childfucking" when it is far more prominent among teachers or the lgbt community.

[Anonymous No.21653482]

>>21653285
Yes. Development of Christian Doctrine by St. John Henry Newman.

[Anonymous No.21653487]

[Anonymous No.21653519]

>>21653307
Source ?

[Anonymous No.21653525]

>>21653460
Turns out when you present your group as specifically being HOLY then when you rape children you come off worse than others and lose credibility.

[sage No.21653534]

>>21653460
>tradcath-larper immediately reverts to strategy of pretending like catholic childfucking isn't that bad
Damn man, more predictable than the motions of the heavenly bodies.

[Anonymous No.21653541]

>>21653285
No. The Catholic church is satanic and false and so are the Ashkenazi. Eastern Orthodox is the true church and Sephardic jews are real jews.

[Anonymous No.21653543]

>>21653525
But gays and teachers are touted as holy.

[Anonymous No.21653550]

>>21653543
If you had any sense you'd realize this is one of the worst defenses you can make of this. Actually you should stop trying to defend it at all.

[Anonymous No.21653556]

>>21653550
I'm >>21653541 and I also believe public schooling should be abolished.

[Anonymous No.21653559]

>>21653307
Very abbreviated but not wrong.

[Anonymous No.21653567]

>>21653556
And? If your church engages in a mass child rape coverup the last thing you should be saying, "Well uh look what those people over there did." The only appropriate attitude is total condemnation of it, and trying to fix it so it doesn't happen again.

[Anonymous No.21653571]

kek these threads never fail in bringing out the seething redditors

[Anonymous No.21653572]

>>21653534
But I'm not defending it? Of course it is morally very wrong and all these priests get punished for it accordingly. Even then priests that do abuse children are extremely rare, to say the whole church is bad just for a couple sickos is wrong. I was just pointing out how the catholic institution is the only one attacked by these generalizations

[Anonymous No.21653579]

>>21653567
Anon I think the vatican should be conquered and all the worlds loot from inside given back. I'm just saying he's right about teachers and homosexuals being predators just like the false churches priests are.

[Anonymous No.21653595]

>>21653571
The great thing about this post is that it could 100% refer to edgelord atheists and 100% could refer to cringy tradcath-larpers.

[Anonymous No.21653630]

>>21653541
>>21653556
>>21653579
>t. convertskii

[Anonymous No.21653713]

After studying the development of the papacy in the middle ages, I'm just not sure that catholicism is right.

[Anonymous No.21653957]

The 'true' Christianity i.e. the one Jesus practiced and preached is essentially an esoteric Judaism. It is strictly anti-legalist so no, Catholicism isn't the 'correct' one. Tbh, I always thought paganism was Europe's best and most profound spiritual practice. You should look into that instead

[Anonymous No.21653972]

The Catholic God is like some kind of machine. If you do X you lose salvation. You do Y you get salvation back. When you die you get punished in purgatory for Z time, which can be discounted by A, B, C.

[Anonymous No.21653992]

LOL. they can't keep getting away with this.

[Anonymous No.21654276]

>>21653460
>flak for " childfucking" when it is far more prominent among teachers or the lgbt community.
Because those gays and teachers were also priests anon

[Anonymous No.21654456]

OP, what are you hoping to get out of church?
Roman church has lots of good writers and efficacious devotions and practices. I was raised Episcopalian so NO mass feels like a step down. The church, as a human institution, also has plenty of other problems. I think of the parable of the prodigal son as applying to the Roman and Orthodox churches—Orthodox has strayed far less but, like the older brother, they grumble a lot. If the Roman church finds its way again it will be glorious. I am not personally convinced they are there yet.
St. Francis de Sales described a long, steep ladder to Jesus and a shorter, easier one that reaches Mary, then proceeds onward to Jesus. This metaphor can also apply to a good church. Church isn’t necessary to establish a relationship with Christ but it can be sufficient. The sacraments are a very big part of that and they are where apostolic succession really matters.
I go to an Orthodox church because I take my kids there. My personal practice is very rooted in the Rosary, the Psalms and the Sacred Heart. It’s taken me to some pretty good places. The Jesus Prayer is much better known in Orthodox circles but there is still an Orthodox variant of the Rosary fwiw. I read both Roman and Orthodox writers and have gotten plenty out of each.
If you are serious about church and serious about finding the true/best church, my two cents is examine your motives, get good with Christ, pray to the Spirit for discernment, then go and see. I could recommend books (ask again if this nonanswer doesn’t satisfy) but they won’t capture what your local clergy and congregation are actually like. All the best.

[Anonymous No.21654489]

>>21653972
after reading the Gospels I really do find it strange. a lot of the stuff doesn't make a lick of sense. i think there is great value in a lot of catholic rituals and traditions in how they bring people closer to God, but the idea that some ritual needs to be done or else you burn in hell no matter how strong your faith in Christ and is teachings are is just nonsensical

the whole Mary thing also makes me extremely uncomfortable. i have no qualms with honoring her, but sorry, I'm not praying to anyone but the father and the son.

[Anonymous No.21654566]

>>21654489
Catholicism strikes me as Talmudic, where it acknowledges laws and then creates legal workarounds. Like with natural family planning. They tell you that you can't use contraception and have to stay open to pregnancy, but it's okay to plan sex around the wife's menstrual cycle so that you're only having sex when she's not ovulating. It's like how some Jewish sects will say the woman can't show her hair, so she'll wear a wig over it.

[Anonymous No.21654590]

>>21654489
Would you ask a friend or relative to pray for you?

[Anonymous No.21654595]

>>21654590
>We just ask us to pray for her bro!

[Anonymous No.21654600]

>>21654595
>We just ask her to pray for us bro!
What a typo. Let's continue, though.

From the "Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary" by St. Bonaventure
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/psalter-of-the-bvm-12537

Save me, O Mother of fair love: fount of clemency and sweetness of piety.
Thou alone makest the circuit of the earth: that thou mayst help those that call upon thee.
--Psalm 11

Hear ye these things, all ye nations: give ear, all ye who desire to enter the kingdom of God.
Honor the Virgin Mary: and ye will find life and perpetual salvation.
--Psalm 48

O Lady, save me in thy name: and deliver me from my injustices ...
O my Lady, help me! bestow thy grace upon my soul!
--Psalm 53

How lovely are thy tabernacles, O Lady of hosts: how delightful are the tents of thy redemption.
Honor her, O ye sinners: and she will obtain grace and salvation for you.
--Psalm 83

Behold, Lady, thou art my savior: I will deal confidently in thee, and will not be confounded.
For thou art my strength and my praise in the Lord: and thou hast become salvation unto me.
--Canticle on the Model of Isaias (XII)

O blessed one, in thy hands is laid up our salvation: be mindful, O loving one, of our poverty.
He whom thou wilt save, will be saved ...
--Canticle Like Habacuc's (III)

Whoever wishes to be saved, before all must hold a firm faith as to Mary.
Which unless anyone shall keep whole and inviolate: without doubt he shall perish forever.
--Marian Creed After the Manner of St. Athanasius

[Anonymous No.21654603]

>>21654600

[Anonymous No.21654605]

>>21654603

[Anonymous No.21654606]

>>21654605

[Anonymous No.21654610]

>>21654606

[Anonymous No.21654616]

>>21654610

[Anonymous No.21654620]

>>21654616
The previous screenshots were from The Glories of Mary by Alphonsus Ligouri, a Catholic Doctor of the Church.

Pic related and the next are from Jaroslav Pelikan.

[Anonymous No.21654627]

>>21654620
Anyway I think all of this is sufficient to state the case against silly arguments like this >>21654590

[Anonymous No.21655597]

>>21653285
>Is Catholic Church the one true church founded by Jesus himself?

Yes. Not sure what you're looking for, because there is a wide range of material that addresses this question, but pic related shows two recent works of well-done, popular apologetics that are addressed to making out the claim of the Church's status as the one true Church established by Christ. I like the writer because he used to work at a DC law firm. He knows how to marshal evidence, and make a tight, convincing argument.

>Are there any books to help me decide if I should convert or not?
The Catholic Catechism is not an apologetic, but rather an exposition of Catholic doctrine. It's very clear and well done. I think you would find it helpful.

You might check out a book of conversion stories such as 'Surprised by Truth'. People come into the Church from very different perspectives, and are convinced to enter it for a variety of different reasons. Reading such stories can clarify one's own thinking.

[Anonymous No.21656134]

>>21653285
"Do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven" - Matthew 23:9

"Any two people who meet in my name is a church" Matthew 18:20

The Catholic Church is an abomination. It's just a continuation of the Roman Empire. Just read the bible, and convert in your own heart. If you're going to go to a church make sure they are based and protestant. Otherwise they are going to be constantly raising money for Israel and preaching that sodomy is now ok. Fuck that shit. Start your own Church if you need to. Like the quote above, Jesus made it clear that any two people who meet in his name is accompanied by him... and that you shouldnt call anyone on earth father. Christianity was meant to constantly fracture off whenever the slightest amount of corruption is detected. That's why it's so successful! :)

[Anonymous No.21656175]

>>21653460
Good ol' whataboutism or a 'Tu quoque'

[Anonymous No.21656209]

>>21653285
Check out Bishop Robert Barron, he got me into the CC.

[Anonymous No.21656210]

>>21653285
No, it used to be part of it, but the Roman church broke away from the original church a long time ago in a political power play. If you're looking for the original, then that would be the orthodox church. Everything else is an imitation.

[Anonymous No.21656290]

>>21653992
So, first and foremost, sexual abuse of children is wrong and deplorable, full stop.

Second, sexual abuse of children, and anyone, is wrong and deplorable. Full second stop.

Third, sexual abuse of anyone is wrong and deplorable. Full third stop.

Etc.

That said, consider that Catholicism has been around for roughly 2000 years at this point. It has been a religion that tens of billions of people have followed over that time. It has hundreds of millions of followers *today*. The abuses we read about number in the tens of thousands, at most low hundreds of thousands. Out of hundreds of millions today, and tens of billions over all history, are we prepared to throw out the entire institution over transgressions - awful transgressions, that clearly go against doctrine and Catholic teaching, that have impacted tens of thousands? We're talking about a thousandth of a percent of followers that have been abused over its history, or even if we just focus on the last 50 years, 2 or 3 hundredths of a percent of followers.

I suspect that there is an equal or greater percentage of sexual abusers among the general populace, and/or among other organized religions, as you find in the Catholic Church of the last 50 years. Doesn't make that the abuse and the predation, of course. But given context and actually looking at the numbers, I'd still be inclined to take my chances with the Catholics. At the very least they have produced better and more enduring art and literature than most other groups and sects.

[Anonymous No.21656297]

>>21656290
>Doesn't make that the abuse and the predation, of course
Doesn't make the abuse and predation *ok* of course

[Anonymous No.21656644]

>>21653534
Okay but why is obsessing over it something that only happens in regards to priests (who have fucked fewer kids than the general pop since you've probably been alive) but never for public school teachers?

You don't give a fuck about it enough to want to get rid of the public education system, so it's obviously just an excuse to get rid of Catholicism even though the issue has objectively been dealt with.

>>21653567
>total condemnation of it
has already happened
>trying to fix it so it doesn't happen again.
has already happened

[Anonymous No.21656659]

>>21654489
>the idea that some ritual needs to be done or else you burn in hell no matter how strong your faith in Christ and is teachings are is just nonsensical
The importance of ritual is essential in the Old Testament all the way back to Abraham if not earlier. Not only that but it makes even more sense in the New Testament because to deny material rituality is to deny Christ's incarnation. The Sacraments and the Mass are fundamentally biblical and getting offput by that is simply getting offput by the Bible's God.

[Anonymous No.21656919]

>>21656290
>I suspect that there is an equal or greater percentage of sexual abusers [...] and/or among other organized religions
We're not dealing in your bias, unfounded coping speculation. We're dealing in facts. And no facts have ever come to light that prove this. The overwhelming facts we have is that Catholic priests stand completely and utterly unique in their rampant sexual abuse of young boys.

[Anonymous No.21657038]

>>21656919
>The overwhelming facts we have is that Catholic priests stand completely and utterly unique in their rampant sexual abuse of young boys.
You mistake Catholic priests for homosexuals.

[Anonymous No.21658519]

>>21657038
I'm not. You seem to be unable to fathom that a lot of Catholic priests are homosexuals.
The reason why even on a speculatory level you can't make the claim that one "suspects" that clergy men in other religions are also engaging in sexual abuse of young boys to even remotely the same degree is that because of it's Catholicism retarded requirement of celibacy. Jewish clergymen don't engage in celibacy and neither do Islamic ones, in fact it's literally outright forbidden in Islam and often times you'll find that it's Islamic scholars that are best suited and able to make use of Islam's polygamy laws. So in both these religions these individuals are able to be release their sexual urges in natural ways, unlike faggy Catholic priests.

[Anonymous No.21658649]

>>21656919
>>21658519
In Canada at least the abuse rates are the same for Protestant clergy and even higher for public school teachers
https://sites.law.duq.edu/juris/2019/03/16/catholic-priest-sex-abuse-scandals-how-the-media-shapes-the-public-perception-of-child-abuse-in-the-catholic-church/

[Anonymous No.21658671]

>>21656644
>point out that catholic priests are fond of childfucking and that this is pretty disturbing
>"NOOOO WHY ARE OBSESSED, LITERALLY RENT FREE STOP BEING SO OBSESSED"
I mean it is completely like clockwork. Anyone mentions catholic childfucking, there is a catholic ready to say it wasn't that bad that they fucked a lot of children, because someone else might very well have fucked even more children.
It's utterly deranged.

[Anonymous No.21658789]

>>21653285
> Create education
> Create health care
> Create a standard of behavior amongst armies and imposes it throughout some of the most violent periods of History.
Gee I don't know.

[Anonymous No.21658807]

>>21654627
Yes, you can't really avoid the conclusion that Mary was treated a divine being. I mean, she's described as being the Queen of Heaven who is placed higher than the angels. Modern Catholics try to deny this obvious fact, just like they try to deny that Purgatory was understood as having a temporal duration that was reduced by specific numbers of days by penances (which included donations...)

[Anonymous No.21658814]

>>21653285
>the only church that traces it traditions to the original fathers
I'd say

[Anonymous No.21658900]

>>21653285
I'm in the same boat as you. I'm dissatisfied with the church I was raised in (episcopal) for a number of reasons, but have no idea how I could even begin to decide what the "right" church is. The thought of having to make the decision terrifies me.

[Anonymous No.21659201]

>>21658671
No one feels entirely compelled to "point out" that public school teachers and Protestant ministers fuck kids like they do with Catholic priests, though. The issue has literally been dealt with and priests for decades have fucked way fewer kids than the general population and there is nothing more that today's 1.3 billion Catholics can do about abuse from half a century ago.

There is nothing left to really discuss about the issue unless you just want to debase Catholicism in particular by constantly bringing it up but ignoring other child abuse that's actually still happening.

[Anonymous No.21659205]

>In the _Apologia Pro Vita Sua_, Newman paid tribute to the important role that Russell paid in his conversion, especially in helping him see that Marian doctrines and devotions were a true development from the original apostolic deposit of faith.
>However, Newman also revealed that even since becoming a Catholic there were aspects of popular Marian piety that did not appeal to him.
>He spoke of how Russell had sent Newman a book of sermons by St Alphonsus Liguori, a Catholic whom Newman noted had ‘prejudiced’ him ‘against the Roman Church’ more than any other writer.
>Yet the book that Russell gave Newman proved influential in revealing something about the practice and acceptance of Marian devotions within the Catholic Church, especially the English-speaking part of it – a revelation that Newman would later develop theologically after he became a Catholic.
>Russell also helped Newman imbibe an important distinction: namely, that devotions, being a part of popular piety, were often at variance in different parts of the Catholic world. Crucially they were, however, not *de fide* – that is, to be accepted by all the faithful.

Source: https://www.academia.edu/2573661/Does_devotion_to_Our_Lady_ever_go_too_far_Newman_on_Marian_piety_in_the_Letter_to_Pusey_1866_

Liguori's personal devotion is not de fide. The Catholic Catechism explains what Catholics are required to believe about Mary. Likewise, John Paul II's Redemptoris Mater (Mother of the Church), and The Rosary of the Virgin Mary are useful in this regard, as well as profoundly insightful. Both documents can be found at vatican.va.

>>21658807
>just like they try to deny that Purgatory was understood as having a temporal duration that was reduced by specific numbers of days by penances
"An indulgence of forty days means that the Church liberates us from that amount of expiation of our sins which would be equal to a forty days' public penance in the early Church. It does not mean forty days less purgatory."
Radio Replies, vol. I (1938) (http://www.radioreplies.info/radio-replies-vol-1.php?t=86))

>(which included donations...)
"The Catholic Church does not now nor has it ever approved the sale of indulgences. This is to be distinguished from the undeniable fact that individual Catholics (perhaps the best known of them being the German Dominican Johann Tetzel [1465-1519]) did sell indulgences–but in doing so they acted contrary to explicit Church regulations. This practice is utterly opposed to the Catholic Church’s teaching on indulgences, and it cannot be regarded as a teaching or practice of the Church."
https://www.catholic.com/qa/does-the-catholic-church-still-sell-indulgences

[Anonymous No.21659254]

>>21659205
Didn't John Paul II kiss the koran?

[Anonymous No.21659263]

>>21653285
Search for Sedevacntism

[Anonymous No.21659376]

>>21658900
I posted above, was raised Episcopalian, made a non-denominational return to Christ, started worrying about church due to kids. Examine your motives for wanting to go to church. Understand them before you go looking around. A lot of Episcopalians go Orthodox. I go to an Antiochian Orthodox church because there are a lot of converts and families there. The liturgy is really nice. My aunt is Anglo-Catholic, might be hard to find but another possibility if you want a “high” church. NO mass is kinda underwhelming, sorry. I tried an Episcopal church when I was shopping around, my son was the youngest one there and I was the second youngest by a couple decades. Real sobering.

[Anonymous No.21659403]

>>21659376
Thank you for the response, anon.
>Anglo-Catholic
How's that different from being a regular catholic?

[Anonymous No.21659411]

>>21653285
https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattolici_tradizionalisti
Traditionalist Catholics

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicisme_social
Social catholicism

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
Georges Lemaitre, creator of the big bang theory

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicisme_social
Social catholicism

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributismo

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributionnisme
distributism

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_carolingienne

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karolingische_Renaissance
Carolingian Renaissance

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottonische_Renaissance
Ottonian Renaissance

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sous_le_royaume_de_France
Corporation under the Kingdom of France

https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?si=1&Query=au%3A%22Liana+Vardi%22&so=rel
Liana Vardi

https://www.jstor.org/stable/286554
The Abolition of the Guilds during the French Revolution

https://youtu.be/AQsEJtJEwEk
The french revolution: the background

https://youtu.be/12RJXxwSngk
The french revolution: the reign of terror

https://youtu.be/VPIiPXMhhbY
The french revolution: the rising of the vendee

https://www.actionfrancaise.net/

http://maurras.net/

https://marechalpetain.com/

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/
encyclopaedia romana

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/
papal encyclical

https://www.scripturecatholic.com/
scripture catholic

https://m.vatican.va/content/francescomobile/en.html
vatican

[Anonymous No.21659458]

>>21653285
>founded by Jesus Himself
Ehhhhhh.... Tradition states that Jesus calling Peter the rock of His church makes him the first pope.
Did Jesus explicitly tell Peter that the church should have a pope, cardinals, bishops, etc. and to form this church exactly this way and that you should execute this plan the moment Christianity is no longer persecuted in Rome? This is unlikely, but I don't think it is necessarily a reason to not follow Catholicism.

[Anonymous No.21659492]

>>21659254
There's a still photo that may show such.* Assuming he did, the gesture is interpreted by some as expressing carte blanche approval of Islam, or even a kind of apostasy. This, however, reads far too much into the gesture, evidently one of respect. In my view, it was a spontaneous and well-meaning but, at least in retrospect, ill-considered gesture, in that it created an occasion for scandal.

*What is actually going on in the photo is not entirely clear. See discussion here: http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/04/jp2_and_the_qur.html

See also: http://web.archive.org/web/20030604152818/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ394.HTM

[Anonymous No.21659565]

>>21659403
It’s…. it’s like a platypus denomination, I don’t claim to fully understand the doctrinal or apostolic successional underpinnings but it’s yet another “catholic if the catholic hierarchy didn’t do dumb shit to fuck it up” denominations, of which there are several. And you have no doubt noticed that it’s, like, a mortal sin in the Episcopal church to convert back to Catholicism. I think it’s an Episcopal church at the end of the day, but with as high a liturgy as possible and nary a rainbow flag or female priest in sight. My aunt likes it, anyway.
I imagine a better world where there is one church and an autocephalous church of England rolls up to the Patriarch of Rome, but Christians love to bicker.

[Anonymous No.21659577]

>>21659565
search for the reformed episcopal church, free church of england and the anglican church in north america. these are the only conservative churches in england and america

[Anonymous No.21659807]

>>21659403
Roman Catholic = Catholic
Anglo-Catholic = Anglican larping as Catholic
Eastern Catholic = Catholic larping as Orthodox
Sedevacantist = Orthodox larping as Catholic

[Anonymous No.21659891]

>>21659565
>And you have no doubt noticed that it’s, like, a mortal sin in the Episcopal church to convert back to Catholicism.
I've seriously never heard of this.

[Anonymous No.21660582]

>>21653285
Watch Fr Ripperger lectures, hes pretty intelligent and well read.

[Anonymous No.21660584]

>>21653285
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdbwNMYKhw0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y1cABhLc2o
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA7QlYW7j6-y6WkDU8hvWJVftKhdnkIaq

[Anonymous No.21660623]

>>21653957
>esoteric Judaism
Qabalah?