/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21620461]

How can a omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God that created literally everything, regret things?
Are there any books that answer this simple question?

[Anonymous No.21620467]

>>21620461
>the seed value for a minecraft world is responsible for you mining gold and building a tower of dicks

are you a fucking idiot?

[Anonymous No.21620477]

>>21620467
I'm not omniscient you absolute retard

[Anonymous No.21620488]

>>21620477
are you really blaming god for nuking antediluvian drag queen story hour?

[Anonymous No.21620490]

>>21620461
Old testament is rubbish, new testament/christianity are Plato redux and thus better

[Anonymous No.21620503]

>>21620461
Perhaps even God does not know what He is and the things that He made are an enigma even to Him

It does say, after all, after He creates things in Genesis, that He "saw that they were good"; I remember that G.K. Chesterton once wrote that as He describes the universe in the Book of Job, God seems to be just as surprised and mystified as Job at what He Himself has created

>"Time is a child at play, playing draughts; a child’s is the kingdom."

[Anonymous No.21620507]

"God" isn't real. Stop believing in propaganda and fairy tales.

[Anonymous No.21620513]

>>21620507
get a real job agent smith

[Anonymous No.21620529]

>>21620461
It's an anthropomorphic representation of an unfathomable God.
Usually "the anger of God" is just referencing the inevitable consequences of your dumb actions. If you jump off a cliff you will be struck by God at the bottom, you will find no reward in that.
The associations can be questionable like Sodom is punished for sodomy by meteor instead of STDs or something with a clear causal connection. They were on a path to a slow torturous decay so it's possible to see the quick meteor/flood as compassion instead.

[Anonymous No.21620557]

>>21620503
>even God does not know what He is and the things He made are an enigma even to Him
So Christians choose to worship a God who punishes those he imperfectly made? Christians really are cowards. One would not worship a tyrant while on earth, but Christians gladly do. They're so selfish; they don't care for right; only might.

[Anonymous No.21620577]

>>21620557
So you despise life and whatever defined the situation because you think it's all "tyrannical"? Celebrating life is cowardice?

[Anonymous No.21620596]

>>21620557
>So Christians choose to worship a God who punishes those he imperfectly made?
Not necessarily; many of the early Christians probably would have told you that God does not actually directly hurt or punish anyone, and that what we call the "wrath of God" is simply (as >>21620529 said) the natural effect of what hateful, destructive, or ignorant have on a person who is misaligned from the Good - akin to how closing one's eyes doesn't stop the sun itself from shining on everything, it only stops its light from being visible to you

[Anonymous No.21620615]

>>21620467
fpbp

[Anonymous No.21620628]

>>21620557
What other option is there? He's literally God. You didn't think your post through at all

[Anonymous No.21620721]

>>21620577
Holy shit faggot, calm it with the strawmans.
>you despise life
Literally where did I state this? Please tell.
>because you think it's all "tyrannical"
You seriously misunderstood my brief post, didn't you? God is tyrannical; God sends you to hell for not believing in him. But this fool didn't even make this by design but rather by chance. You can't argue against the inexorable truth that some people have better lives than most and that some have no reason to believe in God. That those same fruits of your 'virtues' are enjoyed by men with vices. If I were drowning in sable waters, I would hope anybody but a Christian would come to my rescue. Christians wouldn't dive down there with you and comfort you with the thought that if you die, you will not be dying alone. Nay, they rather toss some buoyant or semi-buoyant material down there and tell you there is nothing to fear. They wouldn't comfort a brother; they wouldn't challenge the unfairness of the situation. Which is why the thought of Hell doesn't excite feelings of unfairness in them. No, they wouldn't dive into Hell with you—they rather pray for you and tell you there is nothing to fear. They wouldn't challenge the unfairness of God.

[Anonymous No.21620854]

>>21620721
>You seriously misunderstood my brief post
I understand that you're a retard so I attempted to help you think.
>God sends you to hell for not believing in him
This is not clarifying your post, this is adding additional braindead claims to confuse the discussion to make sure nobody learns anything.
The punishment in this case was a flood. The text is describing nature and your kneejerk response is posting reddit memes.
> fruits of your 'virtues' are enjoyed by men with vices
All this shit is talked about at length in the Bible. This point is raised many times. Your best bet even if you're purely focused on material reward is virtue, this is also what modern biology and game theory says.
> Christians wouldn't dive down there with you and comfort you with the thought that if you die, you will not be dying alone. Nay, they rather toss some buoyant or semi-buoyant material down there
You have serious brain damage. Suddenly you want platitudes instead of a life jacket. The best criticism of Christianity I heard says it's too comforting.

[Anonymous No.21620861]

perhaps your knowledge of the nature of God and the universe is not complete?

[Anonymous No.21620932]

>>21620854
>Literally no arguments and doing that Christian cope of "it is discussed in the Bible"
Aight, you're retarded. Thanks for the cope.
>This is not clarifying your post
I am criticizing Christianity as a whole. Did I mistakenly reply to the OP, idiot? No, I don't believe I did. But yea, keep calling my arguments 'reddit memes', 'braindead', and 'confusing'.
>Suddenly you want platitudes instead of a life jacket
>What are parables
Thanks for outing yourself as mentally-deficient. Shall you be giving out fire extinguishers for those in Hell? Do you not understand that only truly empathetic would disown God for his inequal treatment? Of course not. You fear God and Hell more than you love Justice and men. That is why you 'worship' God. You wish to avoid Hell more than you wish to be Good. No truly good person would believe in God.

[Anonymous No.21620974]

>>21620932
>Do you not understand that only truly empathetic would disown God for his inequal treatment?
Why don't you apply your logic consistently? Do you "disown" nature for its inequal treatment of organisms or celebrate nature for what it gives us? You have no clue how to begin to think about any subject. I was going to say start with the Greeks but I guess start with getting over kindergarten logic.

[Anonymous No.21620983]

>>21620721
>No, they wouldn't dive into Hell with you
But they would! Christianity posits a God who has descended from His throne and traversed down to the lowest hell to proclaim good news to the oppressed. It is a matter of doctrine that Christ descended into Hell and preached to the spirits in prison.

[Anonymous No.21621021]

>>21620974
I don't worship nature, and I know that nature is indifferent. There is nothing to disown. I can only disown myself. So yes I have applied my own logic consistently. You are sidestepping the argument now, I can tell. Farewell, and though I would rather you read fables on basic morality, logic books might be the only thing you'll be receptive to.

[Anonymous No.21621076]

>>21621021
>I don't worship nature
Do you resent nature? You're saying I should resent God based on this logic. If you were describing something you actually work from you would resent nature.
What does worship mean to you? It basically means celebration. If I "worshiped" nature before should I resent it now that you've informed me about how morality is all about being a spoiled legalistic (pharisaic) retard?
>fables on basic morality
What specific fables should I read to become moral like you?

[Anonymous No.21621161]

>>21620721
God sends you to Hell for sin, not for not believing in Jesus Christ. Theoretically if you had never sinned (like Jesus) you of course wouldn't need redemption. But if you had a good nature, you'd believe in Jesus anyway, so its a moot point in that regard. However, the distinction is still important, what is being asserted is that you're being sent to Hell for your transgressions, not for your lack of belief.

[Anonymous No.21621197]

>>21621076
>Do you resent nature?
No. It's not a conscious being. Nature doesn't send those with virtues neither less nor vices more than me to Hell. Need I say more?
>What does worship mean to you?
Undoubtably believing and praising the 'truth' of something. I suppose one can only worship their own good, but I would rather say they take pride in it and believe in it.
>Another strawman
Get fucked.
>What specific fables should I read to become moral like you
I don't know. Google them. I never thought this would be so difficult to understand. I've seen children understand the gross inequality of punishment arising from minor offences. If you need help understanding why torturing someone with more virtues and good deeds done than you simply because they lacked faith then I can't help you there. Morals can't be taught. You just have to be a good person.

[Anonymous No.21621205]

>>21621161
>If you had a good nature, you'd believe in Jesus anyway
No you wouldn't. I wish I proactively brought this up as one of your potential Christian copes. They are all so predictable. You are beyond help.

[Anonymous No.21621222]

>>21621161
That’s not actually a very good formulation of the situation, because due to circumstances outside of our control, we are, at least according to most Christian interpretations, automatically born in sin and are literally incapable of “not not sinning”

If God sent you to Hell for the crime of doing something that you’re ontologically incapable of not doing this comes across as blatantly insane and irrational, and it seems only inevitable that people would reject the concept of “being created sick and commanded to be well”

Obviously this isn’t the entirety of Christianity claiming this but it’s a really bad interpretation of it in my view, Hell only makes ethical sense if it’s either rehabilitative in nature or totally self-chosen and not actively inflicted on people by God

[Anonymous No.21621226]

>>21621205
>No you wouldn't. I wish I proactively brought this up as one of your potential Christian copes. They are all so predictable. You are beyond help.
Whether you believe in Christianity or not isn't really what I'm trying to address, nor am I interested in the question of whether or not its true. I'm just being clear about what Christianity is truly asserting, since the post I replied to was strawmanning it.
To insist on the truth about Christianity's claims, again, it is asserting that you're being sent to Hell for your transgressions, not for your lack of belief.

[Anonymous No.21621234]

[Anonymous No.21621240]

>>21620461
That's just the Demiurge mad he got tricked into breathing his divinity into humans.

[Anonymous No.21621248]

>>21621197
>It's not a conscious being
You don't know and you never mentioned this qualifier. If God is not "conscious" we should celebrate him but if he is we should resent him?
>Nature doesn't send those with virtues neither less nor vices more than me to Hell.
Whatever you call it there are consequences to your actions and they can be horrific. Why should I resent it if I frame it in Christian terms but celebrate it when I'm talking about the exact same thing in secular terms?
>Undoubtably believing and praising the 'truth' of something.
Then I worship all kinds of things including nature. Everything you say is incoherent horseshit.
>Another strawman
Is all you do. It's like you have no interest in even finding anything out.
>Google them
You would have to find it in you to communicate what the fuck you're talking about. You brought up moral fables, what the fuck are you talking about retard?
>the gross inequality of punishment arising from minor offences
When it's a human applying punishment it's something that can be remedied. Here it's the nature of reality you're complaining about, the thing that dictates what is vice or virtue in first place, not some guy.

[Anonymous No.21621251]

>>21620461
It would have to be the property of reflexivity. For an omnipotent being to not experience regret, it would have to have an omniscient understanding of its own omnipotence and omniscience. However, its capabilities are infinite. The question then becomes: can an omnipotent being transcend infinity? If it can, then the idea of infinity is violated. If infinity is violated in the sense that it can be treated as finite, then the Godlike being cannot be omnipotent. If it is capable of infinities, then its ability to understand itself is paradoxical. To understand is to determine as finite. As nothing infinite can be completely understood, memorized, etc (though the concept of infinity might).
This raises the striking Pythagorean implication that mathematics might even be more fundamental than God, that God is confined by the limits of mathematics as is everything else.

[Anonymous No.21621258]

>>21621222
All that is beside the point for me, just trying to be clear on the actual view of Christianity, which it seems you've agreed that this is the view.
To engage in this anyway for fun, but know this is my own views now (just wanted to be clear it wasn't my original purpose):
>That’s not actually a very good formulation of the situation, because due to circumstances outside of our control, we are, at least according to most Christian interpretations, automatically born in sin and are literally incapable of “not not sinning”
I'd argue those Christian interpretations are false from a Biblical point of view, for the following reasons:
1. Moses says that obeying the Law was not beyond the reach of the Jews (Deuteronomy 30:11)
2. Similarly, in Romans 2, Paul asserts that there are Gentiles who obey the Law despite never hearing the Law, they obey it simply by their own nature. He also says alongside this that God punishes or rewards based on one's deeds.
3. In Romans 4, Paul explains that where there is no Law there is no transgression.
4. Ezekiel asserts that God considers at least three individuals, namely Noah, Daniel and Job, to be righteous.
5. Similarly, and consistently, in the Book of Job God tells Satan that He considers Job to be blameless.
So in conclusion if we think its impossible for man to not live righteously then we come into contradiction with these verses, especially the verses in Ezekiel.
>Obviously this isn’t the entirety of Christianity claiming this but it’s a really bad interpretation of it in my view, Hell only makes ethical sense if it’s either rehabilitative in nature or totally self-chosen and not actively inflicted on people by God
To be honest I completely agree with you.

[Anonymous No.21621267]

>>21621251
An account of everything has to be paradoxical, beyond logic and math. Otherwise it doesn't account for logic.

[Anonymous No.21621272]

>>21620557
you sound like a bitchy teenager
>I WISH I WAS NEVER BORN! FUCK YOU DAD!!!
literally you

[Anonymous No.21621273]

>>21621251
This just confuses spirituality with rationality. Spiritual understanding is deeper than rational understanding, just as man is set apart from the animals by his capability so is God set apart from man.

[Anonymous No.21621299]

>>21621273
God is frequently depicted as a perfectly rational being in many traditions. Of course, the word "God" is an empty signifier that cannot be tied to anything concrete or observable. So one can attribute any number of arbitrary properties to it.

[Anonymous No.21621311]

>>21621248
>You don't know and you never mentioned this qualifier.
I never brought up nature in the first place?
>If God is not 'conscious' we should celebrate him
What the fuck are you on about? If it is not conscious then it isn't a him. It would be as if worshipping the air or the sunlight. It wouldn't make any sense. You can be grateful for it I suppose, or rejoice in it and rejoice for it. I wouldn't treat it as if it were a deity.
>Then I worship all kinds of things including nature.
Then do so. That would be schizo-tier. Worshipping has to do with believing in and praising a being. Something conscious that can hear your prayers and answer them.
>You have no interest in even finding anything out.
And Christians do? They already believe themselves in possession of the truth.
>blah blah blah
Google them. I imagine there are moral fables out there which is why I brought them up. If there aren't then there aren't. I'm already telling you what morality is.
>Here it's the nature of reality you're complaining about
What? I am arguing the inconsistency of a loving and fair God which sends good people to Hell. No good purpose would support such a God.
>>21621272
Cry for me. You are spineless for choosing to believe and pray to such a God. Even if I KNEW he existed, I would still not believe. My solace would lie being good for the sake of humanity.

[Anonymous No.21621357]

>>21621311
I feel genuine sympathy for you because it does seem like your rejection of God comes at least in part from compassion for other human beings; I think you've been the unfortunate victim of a lot of bad and abusive theology that's deeply distorted your conception of God

[Anonymous No.21621367]

>>21621311
>Even if I KNEW he existed, I would still not believ
Rhetoric so bizarre that it's very telling. This Anon is genuinely under attack and he thinks his attackers are his friends

[Anonymous No.21621370]

>>21621311
>If it is not conscious then it isn't a him
The source of everything exists. It's not contained in a human body but we relate to it through representations we can grasp.
>Worshipping has to do with believing in and praising a being. Something conscious that can hear your prayers and answer them.
You keep adding these retarded qualifiers with your own personal definitions.
>And Christians do? They already believe themselves in possession of the truth.
You're not talking about anything I said but something some retard on tv or whatever said. You believe your model of reality is better than mine, you think you're in "possession of the truth".I do too but I'm willing to adjust my model, that's how it became so good in the first place. Again you have no clue how to honestly apply the logic you present.
>Google them. I imagine there are moral fables out there which is why I brought them up. If there aren't then there aren't. I'm already telling you what morality is.
You typed all this out and it didn't even occur to you how incoherent this bullshit is. Learn to think before you infect the world with your lack of thought.
>I am arguing the inconsistency of a loving and fair God which sends good people to Hell.
That's not what you said and it makes no sense in the context. Adding hell to the mix is adding another complex concept you have no interest in learning anything about making anything said even more meaningless, so to get anything productive out of this just stick to your first fucking point about a God that punishes people with a flood. That's what you objected to not a post about hell. According to Christ every moment in hell is self imposed by your own attachment to it.
God is by definition the source of love, love existing at all is a gift.
>Even if I KNEW he existed, I would still not believe
The source exists and like I pointed out you resent it whatever its nature is. This is clearly not about Christianity but your resentment of existence itself.

[Anonymous No.21621380]

>>21620557
I have honestly come to accept that God's love is for others better than me in some inherent way. I still worship God though, but he clearly doesn't think I'm worthy of his grace. I hope when I die at least he has the mercy to make me disappear instead of sending me to hell.

[Anonymous No.21621404]

>>21621370
>Stick to your first fucking point about a God that punishes people with a flood
I am not the OP.
>You think you're in "possession of the truth"
If a child falling off a building, I would dive off with them. Choosing to die in their place; the child did not know any better and by chance they fell. If one were drowning, I would drown with them or drown for them. At the very least they won't die alone. Likewise, I know there are better people than I, nobler than I and more charitable than I——I would burn in hell with them as well. There is not a universe where I am a Christian. There is no way I am worthy of Heaven, and they aren't. It doesn't make sense. I am scared of Hell, but I won't be scared alone at least. I will be surrounded, if minutely, by better men.

[Anonymous No.21621452]

>>21621404
>I am not the OP.
I even referenced your post retard. Your first reply was about resenting a God that kills people with floods. Later you changed it into some bullshit you saw on tv about hell to avoid thinking.
>If a child falling off a building, I would dive off with them
That is just retarded.
>Choosing to die in their place
Not how physics works.
>I would drown with them
Multiple deranged narcissistic fantasies about your moral superiority, not just compared to other humans but to whatever defined you. It really is true, every single atheist is biologically defective.

[Anonymous No.21621491]

>>21620557
>So Christians choose to worship a God who punishes those he imperfectly made?
Not all Christians believe in damnation.

[Anonymous No.21621535]

>>21621491
>nOt AlL cHrIsTeRs
Cool. That's still what's in their piece of shit book.

[Anonymous No.21621737]

>>21620461
Maybe he's not omnipotent? Maybe he's just the best there is.

Reigneth Dii.

[Anonymous No.21621838]

>>21620461
When did you realize that we're in hell, bros?

[Anonymous No.21621887]

>>21620503
> Can God make a rock so big, that even he can't lift it?
>What if that is the wrong question? I wonder if the right question is, can God create a puzzle so difficult, a riddle so complex, that even he can't solve it? What if that's us? Maybe a problem like this is God's way of doing to us a little of what we do to him?

[Anonymous No.21621894]

>>21621838
When I saw this

[Anonymous No.21621911]

>>21621894

[Anonymous No.21621929]

>>21621894

[Anonymous No.21621949]

>>21620461
He fucked up bigtime.

[Anonymous No.21621978]

>>21621452
>I even referenced your post retard. Your first reply was about resenting a God that kills people with floods.
No, it wasn't. I always had Hell in mind. I was talking about Hell.
>That is just retarded.
Why? What's retarded about being a cushion for them? Especially for you, who believes in an afterlife?
>Not how physics works.
What are you on about? Can I not help keep them afloat while they rest? How does physics not work like that?
>Multiple deranged narcissistic fantasies about your moral superiority
Question, would choosing to die with children whom Hitler gassed be considered narcissistic fantasies about moral superiority according to you? What is morally superior about wanting to comfort children or even just a friend? Do not mothers choose to die with their children or for them? I know this sounds stupid to you because you're an NPC with no compassion of your own. You fear dying because you don't believe in God or in his supposed love.

[Anonymous No.21622793]

>>21620461
While reading the Bible, think of god as a Dwarf Fortress player, and the world as his Dwarf Fortress world

[Anonymous No.21622909]

>>21620461
>anon cant into metaphorical language

[Anonymous No.21622931]

>>21621311
>Even if I KNEW he existed, I would still not believe. My solace would lie being good for the sake of humanity.
This is just placing yourself above God. You don't even try to understand God's perspective or form a relationship with him, you just automatically defaulting to a feeling of outright superiority. You're a moralist, nihilist, and egoist wrapped in one package

[Anonymous No.21622952]

>>21621978
>Question, would choosing to die with children whom Hitler gassed be considered narcissistic fantasies about moral superiority according to you?
You're exactly like those philanthropists who predictably throws lots of money at faceless charity organizations while completely ignoring the needs of the people that exist in your day to day life. In reality it just makes you an even shittier person that you can be so open about living such a solipsistic existence where martyrdom comes so cheaply to you and in that World you created for yourself you're a superman.