ITT blackpilled authors

[Anonymous No.21528634]

Who are the most irrefutable blackpilled writers? For me it's Mishima

[Anonymous No.21528639]

>>21528634
Mishima is 100% whitepill. You have the reading comprehension of a semi-sentient peanut.

[Anonymous No.21528664]

>>21528639
yes suicide is the ultimate whitepill
when's yours?

[Anonymous No.21528715]

>>21528664
Firstly, Mishima didn't commit suicide, he committed seppuku. Secondly, Mishima's view of death is a whitepill because it re-contextualizes death as the object of life.
For the average normie, death is a bad thing-- something to be feared and despised. To Mishima, death made the greatest virtues possible. Death proves the sincerity of one's beliefs and actions and lends meaning to life. Is it really better to live for the sake of living? To chase after pleasures for 80 years and die a drooling retard in a hospice? You will die no matter what. If you live your life chasing after wealth and pleasure, you will lose everything regardless- you will even lose your death. What a meaningless death: bedridden, demented, and bespeckled with fetid sores and shit filled diapers. To the man that charges head first into death, he will gain exactly what he wished for: Death. His life and death becomes a poem crystallized into the annals of time; whether he is remembered or forgotten, his death remains eternal.
Mishima had a burning desire to help his people throw off the shackles of materialist nihilism, and he died to prove the sincerity of the words he had written and spoken his entire life. He did not commit suicide, he demonstrated his concept of unflinching loyalty and dedication, succinctly explain in Runaway Horses:
>“Like the men of the League, I would cut open my stomach.”
>“Indeed?” The martial prince’s expression indicated that he had grown used to hearing such answers. “Well, then, if he was pleased, what would you do?”
>Isao replied without the least hesitation: “In that case, too, I would cut open my stomach at once.”
>“Oh?” For the first time a gleam of interest flashed from the Prince’s eye. “And what would be the meaning of that? Explain yourself.”

>continued in the next post

[Anonymous No.21528718]

>>21528715
>>21528664
>“Yes, Your Highness. It refers to loyalty. Suppose I make steaming rice balls with rice so hot it burns my hands. My sole purpose is to present them to His Majesty, to offer them in his sacred presence. Now as to the outcome. If his Majesty is not hungry, he will curtly refuse my offering or perhaps he may even be pleased to say: ‘Am I to eat food so tasteless?’ and hurl it into my face. In which case I will have to withdraw, the grains of rice still clinging to my face, and gratefully cut open my stomach at once. Then, again, if His Majesty is hungry and is pleased to eat the rice balls with satisfaction, there will still be no course of action open to me but to withdraw at once and gratefully cut open my stomach. Why? To make rice balls to serve as food for His Sacred Majesty with hands so common is a sin worthy to be punished with a thousand deaths. But, then, suppose I were to make rice balls as an offering but keep them in my hands and not present them, what would happen then? After a while the rice would certainly rot. This, too, would be an act of loyalty, I suppose, but I would call it a loyalty without courage. Courageous loyalty belongs to the man who, with no fear of death, dares to present the rice balls that he has thus made with single-minded devotion.”
>“While knowing he’s sinning? Is that what he’s to do?”
>“Yes, Your Highness. The gentlemen of the military, Your Highness foremost among them, are indeed fortunate. For the soldier’s loyalty rests in casting away his life in obedience to the Emperor’s commands. But in the case of an ordinary civilian, he must be prepared to sin by reason of his unsanctioned loyalty.”
>“‘Obey the law’—isn’t that a command of His Majesty? And the law courts— they are, after all, His Majesty’s courts.”
>“The sins I refer to have nothing to do with the law. And the greatest sin is that of a man who, finding himself in a world where the sacred light of His Majesty is obscured, nevertheless determines to go on living without doing anything about it. The only way to purge this grave sin is to make a fiery offering with one’s own hands, even if that itself is a sin, to express one’s loyalty in action, and then to commit seppuku immediately. With death, all is purified. But as long as a man goes on living, he can’t move either right or left, or take any action whatever, without sinning.”

[Anonymous No.21528720]

>>21528634
I genuinely wonder how the Emperor must have felt when Mishima pulled his stunt. Did he feel touched? Embarrassed? Annoyed?

[Anonymous No.21528727]

>>21528720
Mishima was openly critical of the Emperor. He believed the Emperor's renunciation of divinity and capitulation to the enemy proved that he was not the true Emperor of Japan and demanded Hirohito's abdication.

[Anonymous No.21528733]

>>21528727
>He believed the Emperor's renunciation of divinity and capitulation to the enemy proved that he was not the true Emperor of Japan and demanded Hirohito's abdication.
W-wow... that's... really dumb. What's the source on this, I am not sure I believe this.
Also given the topic I suppose it would be important to mention the ambiguities of the so-called humanity declaration and the technical room for manoeuvre theologically.

[Anonymous No.21528759]

>>21528733
Mishima believed that it would have been better for the Japanese people to have been entirely wiped out and made extinct than for it to have capitulated to the enemy. Here's his mentioning of the topic (Only one that's translated into English):
>When I spoke with some very young people on television, I listened to one argue that Japan should devote herself completely to a demilitarized peace, that it would be fine to be massacred without showing the least resistance to an invading foreign enemy, and that he hopes that the ideal of the Peace Constitution would thereby live in world history, I took interest in the fact that this is directly connected to exactly the wartime idea of the entire nation fighting to the death. This is the idea that, if it is for the sake of protecting invisible culture, the spirit of the country, its spiritual values, then it is acceptable for the possessors themselves to be annihilated and all visible culture destroyed.
Here's Mishima's wikipedia article:
>Mishima's nationalism grew towards the end of his life. In 1966, he published his short story The Voices of the Heroic Dead (英霊の聲, Eirei no koe), in which he denounced Emperor Hirohito for renouncing his own divinity after World War II. He argued that the soldiers who had died in the February 26 Incident (二・二六事件, Ni-Ni-Roku Jiken) and the Japanese Special Attack Units (特攻隊, Tokkōtai) had died for their "living god" Emperor, and that Hirohito's renunciation of his own divinity meant that all those deaths had been in vain. Mishima said that His Imperial Majesty had become a human when he should be a God.
He didn't necessarily believe that Hirohito was irredeemable, but he was extremely critical of the Humanity Declaration and satirized it in some of his fiction.

Anyway, how is it dumb? Religiously irrational? Inconsistent? In what way does it seem so?

[Anonymous No.21528767]

>>21528759
>>21528733
His idea of victory at all costs is closely related to his idea of death. Death makes one eternal, but capitulation in life erases you. He thought it better for Japan to die in its prime than to live on as meaningless, homogenized, rootless people.

[Anonymous No.21528781]

>>21528634
>Mishima
What would Nietzsche say about him?

[Anonymous No.21528788]

>>21528781
"stupid ass gook"

[Anonymous No.21528803]

>>21528781
Mishima is both defied convention and saw himself as the true moralfag following convention to a T. I'm tempted to say that Nietzsche would use him as an example of the Overman, but it's also possible that he would assume Mishima is a mindless follower of tradition.

[Anonymous No.21528808]

>>21528634
>irrefutable
>read: Feed me an opinion on a silver platter that I don't have to think about with any form of nuance
I swear people like you just speak your mind because you think your words are inherently valuable dragging down the collective value of the rest of us. mass literacy was a mistake

[Anonymous No.21528811]

>>21528634
>biggest super conformist to dumb traditions is totally blackpilled because he can't cope with how gay he is
kek

[Anonymous No.21528821]

>>21528788
>>21528803
The gooks are always moralfags. I'm very close to labelling them just as I do Jews to save me some time.

[Anonymous No.21528828]

>>21528759
>>21528767
Sure, I mean I can empathise with the mentality since my ethics are very similar, but surely he must understand that there are such things as impossible situations. You can't expect literally everyone to prefer annihilation over subjugation - that's a trait that belongs only to the heroic figure. It's the hero's job to change destiny and turn his people to high ideals again, even at the risk of pointless destruction without hope. As for the people in general, you can't expect them to all have that constitution, down to every man, woman and child. You must spare the people pointless suffering where there is no benefit or purpose to it.

[Anonymous No.21528835]

>>21528828
The hero's destiny is to subjugate others.

[Anonymous No.21528840]

>>21528835
What's the point of that?

[Anonymous No.21528841]

>>21528828
You're correct in many ways, although I have a feeling that Mishima would consider those that didn't die gloriously with the death of their nation to be traitors that deserve to live as rootless animals. He wouldn't consider the state that comes afterward to be a genuine continuation of Japan, just a colony of cowards that didn't even deserve to die gloriously. What instead happened was the enslavement of his people which he saw as utterly humiliating.

[Anonymous No.21528844]

>>21528840
To relieve them from the pressure of autonomy. Slaves are sad when they're free.

[Anonymous No.21528848]

>>21528841
Again, I understand. It just seems a bit absolutist. If everyone thought the same way, Japan would have ended with the fall of the Shogunate and we never would have seen the beauty of Meiji.
>>21528844
They are sadder when you deprive them of the ability to submit voluntarily.

[Anonymous No.21528851]

I am a National Socialist and even I dont get Mishima, the worship of death. With the amount of probabilistic outcomes that arrive from death, it makes more sense to view it with ambiguity than fool hardy goodness or evil.

People just want to be happy at the end of the day, and while the regime after WW2 failed that for the West and Japan alike, I dont see death as the solution to making this world a pleasant one.

Mishima was a beautiful soul but I dont think he thought much of existence

[Anonymous No.21528871]

>>21528767
>Vivre? les serviteurs feront cela pour nous
>>21528811
>dumb traditions
What's the alternative? To live without honour? I suppose that's not something you believe in though.
>>21528848
True but Mishima was an artist, not a statesman. In reality only a warrior class is expected to have such a level of loyalty.

[Anonymous No.21528872]

>>21528848
>They are sadder when you deprive them of the ability to submit voluntarily.
No. Slaves want to be conquered.

[Anonymous No.21528882]

>>21528871
>True but Mishima was an artist, not a statesman. In reality only a warrior class is expected to have such a level of loyalty.
Yeah, I guess this interpretation was just a part of his nature as an artist.

[Anonymous No.21528888]

>>21528872
I dunno bro, doesn't seem to check out with reality. People love to join cults and shit but if you try to force them to do something against their will, even if it benefits them, they'll resist you big time.

[Anonymous No.21528893]

>>21528715
>Is it really better to live for the sake of living?

Yes. I believe in Life so much I would die for it.

[Anonymous No.21528902]

>>21528893
Then you are in leagues with Mishima.

[Anonymous No.21528904]

>>21528715
>>21528718
You guys sound like such dorky faggots holy shit

[Anonymous No.21528912]

>>21528715
>>21528718
Based

[Anonymous No.21528917]

>>21528904
Mishima was laughed at when he attempted the coup. Today everything has become so derealized that any form of genuine and strongly held belief is seen as edgy or tryhard. It's unbelievable that strong beliefs such as Mishima's were the universal norm (excepting short lived periods of decadence followed by collapse) until consumerist materialism destroyed sincerity.
I don't mean to say I am anything but a larper. I am a larper, and like everyone else throughout all of history, I will be a larper until the day I die.

[Anonymous No.21528920]

>>21528851
>even I dont get Mishima
Well Mishima was advocate of tradition, and National Socialism wasn't very traditional ideology, except maybe in aesthetics. I don't get why even use the word ''even''.
Traditional societies accepted death as fact, and something akin to a gate to different state of existence. The focus on this life, without preparing for death and the next will cause unhappiness and anxiety. Mishima might have though existence more than most people in that sense.
Death might be ambiguous, but so is life. But I doubt you view life with same attitude.

[Anonymous No.21528922]

>>21528715
>>21528718
>when's yours?

[Anonymous No.21528928]

>>21528917
>Mishima was laughed at when he attempted the coup.
A long time ago another anon claimed that all the soldiers at the military base were actually away on training, and that the people who laughed at Mishima were in reality janitors and other support staff like that, rather than troops.

[Anonymous No.21528935]

>>21528715
>>21528718
Contrast this with Kenzō Okuzaki, a Japanese soldier who actually did fight in World War 2 in deplorable conditions in the pacific and came away with a seething hatred for the Emperor who ripped him from his youth to fight in a nonsensical war that profited nobody by the emperor. Seems like a way cooler guy than some zogbot closet case who never actually fought in a war

Here's a famous documentary about him confronting and beating the shit out of the BASED fascist ex army officer dipshits that you aspire to: https://archive.org/details/The.Emperors.Naked.Army.Marches.On.Kazuo.Hara.1987

[Anonymous No.21528938]

[Anonymous No.21528939]

>>21528928
Not true. A few anons say preposterous things because they like to be contrarian. Here's a video of his speech (no audio). You can see uniformed military personnel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDNjK6LnW0Y

[Anonymous No.21528945]

>>21528935
>zogbot closet case
Here you use zogbot without understanding its meaning. Japan, at the time, was opposing the zog and capitulated to the zog, and has now become a zog.

[Anonymous No.21528948]

>>21528917
He deserves to be ridiculed. Did you ever stop and wonder why people are revolted by things like fascism, militarism, and warfare? It's shameful and disgusting to celebrate and you deserve to be mocked and humiliated for wanting to cause more undue suffering because you're bored you sick retarded fuck

[Anonymous No.21528953]

>>21528939
Anon, have you researched this or are you going off of the uniforms? Because janitors can also wear uniforms, you know.

[Anonymous No.21528961]

>>21528935
>>21528948
You can suffer just as well in peace as in war, and there is also a qualitative difference between suffering depending on the question - for the sake of what are you suffering for.
You are a faggot btw.

[Anonymous No.21528969]

>>21528953
At 0:49 you can see one Corporal(Rikushichō) and at the 0:22 there are various ranks of officers, highest rank I saw was a senior officer Nitō kaisa.

[Anonymous No.21528980]

>>21528961
So you're basically admitting you're too retarded to think for yourself then and that your happiness is contingent on the government telling you did a super good boy job for killing strangers you never met before for reasons that are obscured to you?

Yupppp that sounds retarded. Enjoy your IED, I'll be keeping the homefront secure and fucking the wives and girlfriends of all the badass super warriors like you lol

[Anonymous No.21528981]

>>21528948
>>21528980
very boring. surely you can manage better

[Anonymous No.21528983]

>>21528980
Dying for the US is dying for a corrupt bureaucracy of pedophilic monsters. Mishima suffered and died for something good. I don't think anon is advocating for dying in pointless wars for corrupt politicians, but for good things. Would you say it is bad to suffer for the people you love? To die for them?

[Anonymous No.21528984]

>>21528980
>became white
I don't see the problem

[Anonymous No.21528988]

>>21528983
No he didn't lolllll

[Anonymous No.21528996]

>No he didn't lolllll

[Anonymous No.21529017]

All this Andrew Tate/Bronze Age faggot intentionally homoerotic hypermasculinity stuff is going to
age so poorly and you guys are legit going to be embarrassed that you associated yourself with it. That's a freebie on me. Try snd focus on not being an alienating loser first before trying to convince everyone with jacked guys in speedos that we need a rematch of world war 2

[Anonymous No.21529023]

>>21529017
/lit/ has been talking about Mishima long before those two newfag

[Anonymous No.21529024]

>>21528888
Only if you're weak.

[Anonymous No.21529033]

>>21529023
Just shut the fuck up, nobody talked about Mishima before 2016 on /lit/. Back then it was all like Cioran and Thomas Ligotti. Nice try though attempting and failing to be cool and flex your cred loser lol

[Anonymous No.21529034]

>>21529017
Tate and BAP are cringe materialists. Their whole shtick is living the high life. Mishima would have shit on them.

[Anonymous No.21529041]

>>21529034
The high life in jail.

[Anonymous No.21529058]

>>21529017
Being a normalfag is more sad than being a loser. In the end, you will regret that you weren't yourself in the end, but sad mask to gain social acceptance.
Not to mention you some reason associate accomplished author with Andrew Tate, who is remarkably different from Mishima in views and actions.
>>21529033
Not that anon but archive tells a different tale.
>>/lit/?task=search2&ghost=yes&search_text=&search_subject=Mishima&search_username=&search_tripcode=&search_email=&search_filename=&search_datefrom=&search_dateto=&search_op=all&search_del=dontcare&search_int=dontcare&search_ord=new&search_capcode=all&search_res=post

[Anonymous No.21529077]

>>21528980
Sure, just don't forget to wear a condom and take your anxiety medication beforehand, wanker! Also learn to read since your post didn't engage with what I said at all.
>>21529017
Mishima is in a very different league from Tate and BAP. Although I do agree that in 10 years time BAP boys will either be very disillusioned or hopeless.
>>21529024
Who have you subjugated bro?

[Anonymous No.21529101]

>>21528983
>Mishima suffered and died for something good
>state-sanctioned war crimes
>good

[Anonymous No.21529114]

>>21529101
Yes.

[Anonymous No.21529121]

>>21528715
>Firstly, Mishima didn't commit suicide, he committed seppuku

[Anonymous No.21529135]

>>21529121
In suicide there is the implication that one has volunteered out of selfish desire. Oh poor me! Oh how I suffer! Oh noooo! I must die!
Mishima didn't cut himself open in his room while sobbing at the injustices done to him, he was forced to commit seppuku by his ideals. He even said "I am forced to do this, (for my country)" before he returned to the commandant's office.
This doesn't mean he didn't want to do it, but that his death was necessary (to live out Bushido) and so he willingly died.

[Anonymous No.21529136]

>>21528935
Actually the coolest guy was Ernst Junger who both fought during the most brutal and dehumanizing materiel battles of WW1 trench warfare, sacrificed blood and friends for a lost cause and still managed to find meaning in it and not become hateful, then lived a full and mostly happy life to the age of 102.

[Anonymous No.21529140]

>>21529135
Bushido was secondary to his deathwish. His accomplishment was giving this deathwish meaning by turning his death into an artistic and political performance, an inspiration for people.

[Anonymous No.21529161]

>>21529140
That view is too simplistic. Out of all the competing directions a person's mind is going, and all of the desires within, would it really be useful in understanding a person to slice him into all-too-convenient pieces? There is his deathwish, the sole reason he lived and died. This? The little act he gave for attention. This juicy little bit right here? Repressed homosexuality! Oh hohohohooo!
Oversimplifications like these into archetypes is cringe and ignores the complexity and nuance of an individual and his desires.

[Anonymous No.21529194]

>>21529161
I'm not saying he didn't believe in it earnestly, he did. But he found bushido because he wanted to die, he didn't want to die because he found bushido. I mean it's quite laudable when you find a cause that aligns with your dreams and passions. Few people can dream to do that.

[Anonymous No.21529207]

>>21529194
At that point we get to psychoanalyzing pointlessly.

[Anonymous No.21529346]

>>21528715
>>21528718
>>21529161
>>21529207
Its impossible to take Mishimas desire for a glorious death completely at face value because he had no delusions about succeeding overthrowing the governement, he constructed his own perfect suicide and turned it into a work of art. This isnt "psychoanalysis" its evidenced, among other things, by the fact that he didnt even bring a megaphone so people could hear his speech, but he made sure the write it down for posteriority. From the moment Mishima founded Tatenokai he was carefully preparing an idealistic and aesthetic suicide.

Runaway Horses is not a manifesto and while Isao is in many ways what Mishima thinks youth should be like there is clearly a lot of criticism towards the japanese conservatives he was the most aligned with. It is also abundantly clear that this image of a young man ready to lay down his life without out of sort of a instinctual and spiritual understanding of the true soul of Japan is an idealistic and carefully constructed ideal archetype that necessitates the reflection and maturity of an older intellectual. In a way Isao comitting to his glorious suicide after the political potency of the act is gone is the strongest reflection of Mishima himself in the book, glorious youth going out in a beautiful blaze never having known decay (of course Mishima wasnt nearly young enough to live up to his own ideal but he was young enough to avoid old age filled with nothing but decay (The Temple of Dawn and The Decay of The Angel expounds on this). Mishima himself did not embody this at all when he was Isaos age, he even all but admitted he took advantage of a misunderstanding at his health examination to escape service in ww2. If anything Isao is more of an image of Mishimas objects of admiration in Confessions of a Mask with the added shining laquer finish of his carefully perfected image of a true japanese hero than of Mishima himself.

Im curious how much Mishima youve actually read? You seem like you could be genuine but you also seem like the kind of reactionary who wants a lot from Mishima without caring or wanting to try to understand him.

[Anonymous No.21529451]

>>21528961
I get it, I really do. But it's still just bored LARP. Shameful to associate it with the vigour of the past, as if your impotence had any relation to the past, as if the vigour of today you fail to recognise has no relation to the past, though spurning it. You have no claim to it. Neither does Mishima. You like the aesthetics. Nothing more. That's not bad but take it into your own life beyond LARP. Mishima committed suicide with a carefully constructed aesthetic death. This is not sincere. It's self-indulgent play. Mishima is an artist i.e. a faker. An actor and aesthete. Nothing wrong with that.

Intent towards peace and goodwill is better. You will know this when war or calamity comes. When everything is worse, when everything is broken, when your family is dead and your life is nothing that can be wasted or not wasted. You imagine the vitality of that experience but you only know self-aggrandising fantasy and rejection of life. When you know and grow up in the very tangible and inescapable inferiority of poverty and destruction and conscription, when you suffer and struggle a lifetime for a few steps towards some half-decent living, none of this will come to mind.

[Anonymous No.21529462]

>>21528715
>Firstly, Mishima didn't commit suicide, he committed seppuku.
lmao

[Anonymous No.21529478]

>>21528851
>I am a National Socialist
You're nothing of the sort

[Anonymous No.21529617]

>>21529346
Are you me? I'm the other anon this guy was replying to, and that's literally what I wanted to write out after I got to a computer, my earlier replies were typed out on a phone.

What I'd like to add and what I only understood a few months after finishing Sea is that there's a lot of meaning in the fact that both people closest to Isao, Honda and Makiko (the girl who perjured to get Isao free) become degenerate voyeurs in the third book after the war. Imo it's a commentary on how hero worship or idealism centered on heroic figures is itself a (more noble) form of voyeurism. By itself it's a criticism of political nationalism that heavily depends on this sort of thing. Mishima too was wary of being idolized by Tatenokai members.

[Anonymous No.21529699]

>>21529346
>In a way Isao comitting to his glorious suicide after the political potency of the act is gone is the strongest reflection of Mishima himself in the book, glorious youth going out in a beautiful blaze never having known decay
Isao:
>Spends the latter half of the book doing mental gymnastics to preserve his self-righteousness after discovering his father takes money from Shinkawa and Kurahara
>Accepts money from Sawa
>Gets betrayed by a girl he confided in because he had the hots for her
>Wishes he'd been born a woman so he didn't have illusions (lmao)
>Kills Kurahara "for desecrating the sanctuary of Ise", although he himself had spilled blood on holy ground at Yanagawa after the purification rites.
>Spends the whole book fantasizing with seppuku under a tree in sunlight, kills himself in a cave by the sea at dark.
Isao is a narcissist obsessed with the idea of his own death (see his thoughts at Yanagawa when he goes hunting). Mishima portrays him sympathetically for obvious reasons, but he fails to accomplish any of what he'd intended, gets constantly humiliated, and lets himself die unceremoniously, after murdering Kurahara in a last attempt to pretend he'd carried out some sort of mission.

[Anonymous No.21529848]

>>21529451
I like Mishima but good post

[Anonymous No.21529899]

>>21528983
Imperial Japan was a retarded barbaric state that destroyed its own national culture and way of life before engaging in brutal savagery across much of east Asia. The mutts unironically did nothing wrong, they had both nukes coming.

[Anonymous No.21529911]

>>21529033
Ligotti and Cuckoran are even more pathetic and worthless human garbage than Mishima. If your statement is true then /lit/ has no hope.

[Anonymous No.21529920]

>>21529617
Always fun to encounter someone who actually reads Mishima on /lit/

>What I'd like to add and what I only understood a few months after finishing Sea is that there's a lot of meaning in the fact that both people closest to Isao, Honda and Makiko (the girl who perjured to get Isao free) become degenerate voyeurs in the third book after the war. Imo it's a commentary on how hero worship or idealism centered on heroic figures is itself a (more noble) form of voyeurism. By itself it's a criticism of political nationalism that heavily depends on this sort of thing.

I can agree with that to the extent that he is intent on showing the dark side of the coin as he sees it, but the contradictions of Mishima as an artist, idealist and person shows very clearly in Sea. Adding to what you say is Makikos understudy being completely shattered by losing her son in the war to the point she completely ceases to be a person of her own and just lets Makiko control her like a marionette. Here we could also read that in defeat the cynicist prevails and assumes control while the simple people, idealists or not lose not only their way but their being as Japanese, the difference between the idealist and the non idealist simply being that one laments it while the other is largely unaware.

Another side of what you tackle in your analysis is that in Mishimas view old age is corruption and (especially in defeat) it is intolerable and almost unforgivable, even being in his forties felt at times intolerable to Mishima and if you want to put it (way too) simply but also somewhat succinctly both Sea (particularily Temple and Angel) and his Tatenokai era ending in suicide was a part of his (unusually complicated and idiosyncratic) midlife crisis.
The idealistic nationalist Mishima saw post war Japan as an emblem of defeat, surrender and extinction but the meticulous and reflected intellectual Mishima was completely aware of the deficiencies in the current nationalist milieu of post war Japan. I think these contradictions among other things lead to him taking the position of the emperors divinity as it marks a strongly old fashioned and uniquely japanese stance that marks him as an old school japanese nationalist that is hard to attack for a japanese nationalist without making concessions on how hardline they are while also being very hard to break down into an intellectual debate without getting abstract (there are many interviews where he discusses his views on policies and more tangible aspects of post war politics and its always very eccentric and almost mazelike.)

[Anonymous No.21529949]

>>21529920
(cont.)
>Mishima too was wary of being idolized by Tatenokai members.
This leads us to yet another side of Mishimas contradiction filled idisyncratic being: Officially and maybe even to himself it is a safe haven for japanese youth sympathetic to the old ways and a way for him to interact with them as a mentor and guide without being their idol through having them operate as a militia with drill excercises, uniforms and even an anthem of their own.(a glorified fan club such as a debate club would pan out with Mishima as the deitylike centerpiece, a setup he even has a bit of fun with in his novella Act of Worship)
But at the same time Tatenokai is his perfect fever dream and most likely started with his suicide already sketched out meaning that he was looking for an acolyte to complete his seppuku all along.

He is often mocked for said acolytes failure to decapitate him but honestly that scene is the most Mishimasesque moment imaginable: Two acolytes, one fragile and emotional, one stoic and unwavering join him for his final act. They are ostensibly all supposed to commit seppuku but Mishima appeals to them that they must live on, after which his emotional follower breaks down in tears and insists that he cant let his sensei die alone before botching the decapitation not once, but three times until the stoic acolyte, silent through it all steps up and does it in one strike, after which the fragile follower cuts his stomach open and is summarily decapitated by the stoic who remains until the end and goes on to become a shinto priest.

[Anonymous No.21529955]

>>21529451
I've been living in poverty my whole life anon, and I have a full appreciation of what it means to die. I don't want to die, I want to live well. Yet, a large part of me wishes I was a Eastern European right now and could go fight in the war. If I live, I get to live as a hero and have my own plot of land and house granted to me by Putin. If I die, I die quickly and as a hero instead of as a decrepit 80 yo with no hope, no legacy and crippling health problems.
You are a hypocrite anon. You try to talk others out of their fantasies but it's quite clear that you yourself are living out the fantasy of some wise man who sees through the illusions of others. Isn't that an illusion as well? You think you know everything and everyone so well, but you don't.
Peace is a great thing, but peace at any cost is slavery - quite literally. There are some things worth fighting for, and if there aren't, well, that's even worse.

[Anonymous No.21530052]

>>21529699
Its puzzling that you seem to think Mishima is unaware of the fact that Isaos (political) mission failed and that through his peers he had been corrupted even when he insisted on everything being just like his favorite manifesto.

>>Spends the latter half of the book doing mental gymnastics to preserve his self-righteousness after discovering his father takes money from Shinkawa and Kurahara
>>Accepts money from Sawa
>>Gets betrayed by a girl he confided in because he had the hots for her
Again this is the reason why Isao starts chasing his death to purify himself. As he said in the beginning his goal is a beautiful suicide, not political success.
>>Wishes he'd been born a woman so he didn't have illusions (lmao)
This is a part of the more abstract part of the part of the narrative that deals with the transmigration of souls and almost like an interlude of sorts to Temple
>>Kills Kurahara "for desecrating the sanctuary of Ise", although he himself had spilled blood on holy ground at Yanagawa after the purification rites.
>>Spends the whole book fantasizing with seppuku under a tree in sunlight, kills himself in a cave by the sea at dark.
Isao is perfectly aware that his killing will have at best no political effect and at worst one that makes nationalists seem foolish, he is coming to terms with the political framing and poetical location was vain and that the act has been the important thing all alone, to defy the age of decay and stand his ground, even if it makes him a fool in the eyes of society. Even if the earthly reason to kill Kurahara is gone he is still the ultimate symbol of the corruption that clutches the spirit of Japan, the fact that this corruption does not need Kurahara is at this point irrelevant as Isao is now doing this for himself.
>Isao is a narcissist obsessed with the idea of his own death (see his thoughts at Yanagawa when he goes hunting). Mishima portrays him sympathetically for obvious reasons, but he fails to accomplish any of what he'd intended, gets constantly humiliated, and lets himself die unceremoniously, after murdering Kurahara in a last attempt to pretend he'd carried out some sort of mission.
So in other words you agree with me? Maybe youre taking offense with me saying never having known decay, as he did get his taste of decay and corruption but his final act redeems it according to the specific nationalist shinto school his beliefs hinge on. Mishima portays what you call narcissism as a kind of tragic heroic act on the battlefield of the spirit. Whats you call unceremonious and in pretence is the ultimate act of spiritual integrity and bravery (at least according to this book and to an extent Mishimas own internal logic and ideals).

Nothing you said contradicts me or proves that Mishima didnt understand what he was writing.
Whether you think that is stupid and ridiculous is of course entirely up to you and I think this being the case is why you failed to see the nuance and internal consistency.

[Anonymous No.21530061]

>>21528715
>切腹(せっぷく､Seppuku)は、刃物などで自らの腹部を切り裂いて死ぬ自殺の一方法

[Anonymous No.21530090]

>>21530052
(cont.)
In many ways Runaway Horses is a warning against quixotic nationalism while mounting a defence for the spiritual core of said nationalism as well as being an arena for him to fully begin his treatise on the transmigration of souls as expanded heavily on in Temple of Dawn. How seriously he took this meticulous and very specific take on shinto-buddhistic reincarnation is difficult to say as Temple and Angel contain both painstaking detail and admiration of it while expressing some level of doubt or at least lack of confidence in it as an absolute truth and perhaps even just an intellectual (or personal) exploration of the hereafter. (seen especially in Angel)

[Anonymous No.21530230]

>>21528893
If you said that ironically, you're closer to a lap dog than to a human

[Anonymous No.21530347]

>>21528733
>I am not sure I believe this.
Why not? This is openly known and it wholly congruent with the rest of Mishima's philosophy. He desired a return to the glory of Japan's masculine past, and saw its feminization-by-subjugation to Western society as a fate worse than death.
I'm not criticizing you for asking for a source, and I'm glad others have provided, but I don't understand what would make you doubt the information.

[Anonymous No.21530362]

>>21529041
This isn't the zinger you think it is. The other anon agrees that Tate (and BAP) are trash masquerading as true thinking and feeling humans.

[Anonymous No.21530389]

>>21530347
I just thought that he was more mature and reasonable than that. Surely he should've realised that the emperor was in an impossible situation.

[Anonymous No.21530399]

>>21530389
Mishima was all about death for the sake of ideals. *I* agree the emperor and the nation did the right the thing, but from Mishima's viewpoint the act of capitulating to an enemy and discarding your ideals was far worse than death.

[Anonymous No.21530450]

>>21530389
It's important not to idolize other people to the point that you project your own thoughts/opinions on to them.
This is a common mistake though, and how any cult of personality starts.
He's quite mature and reasonable, he's a fascinating and intelligent persona. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with any of his views, or think they're correct.

[Anonymous No.21530452]

>>21530052
>>21530090
>So in other words you agree with me?
I agree with the following:
>In many ways Runaway Horses is a warning against quixotic nationalism while mounting a defense for the spiritual core of said nationalism
I disagree with the following:
>he did get his taste of decay and corruption but his final act redeems it
I think Mishima is sympathetic towards Isao insofar as "his heart is in the right place". My point is I don't think he intended to vindicate him in the end. Isao wants to "exchange his life for a single line of poetry, written in blood" (paraphrasing), but the end result is so far removed from the poetry he envisioned that I don't think he could honestly call it glorious.
>according to the specific nationalist shinto school his beliefs hinge on
This is also an important point. Isao is a shintoist, but the tetralogy runs on Buddhist reincarnation (whether it's literal reincarnation or just Honda's interpretation of facts is debatable). The point is not that Isao's political plot fails - it's that he's defeated metaphysically, by dying an impure death and falling under the forces of a foreign religion.
The fact that he reincarnates into a woman is also significant, as each life elaborates on the failures of previous ones. Kiyoaki is ineffectual; Isao is the man of action. Isao "chases after illusions"; Yin Chao doesn't (see Isao's last conversation with his parents). Yin Chao is oblivious; Toru, conniving.

[Anonymous No.21530456]

>>21530450
I don't idolise Mishima, I am loosely familiar with him and like him as a person. I might read the Golden Pavilion soon - I have that on my list alongside Eumeswil, if I ever get my life going again.

[Anonymous No.21530464]

>>21530452
By Yin Chao I mean Ying Chang, but my brain farted.

[Anonymous No.21530571]

is spring snow like his other works in terms of the theme of an aesthetic ideal? i liked sailor and want more of that romance mixed in with that theme of the ideal, perfect standard for life

[Anonymous No.21530653]

>>21528851
You don't get it because Mishima's worldview was aristocratic and not just nationalistic.

[Anonymous No.21530667]

>>21528715
>To Mishima, death made the greatest virtues possible. Death proves the sincerity of one's beliefs and actions and lends meaning to life.
This is nothing specific about Mishima but a tenet of samurai ethics.

[Anonymous No.21530684]

>>21529135
He would have found some way to commit suicide regardless. If you know anything about him, have read his writing you would know that the guy could not wait to slit his belly open (and ideally while cooming) for just about any reason.

[Anonymous No.21530706]

>>21530684
You have a big fat turd where your brain is supposed to be

[Anonymous No.21530722]

>>21530571
Sort of, yeah. It's mostly about the pre-WW1 belle epoque so to speak, before radicalism and then materialism overshadow the following books. Hard to explain it at length without spoiling the following books, but the first one on its own isn't as shocking or quixotic as you'd expect from Mishima's writing. There's maybe one or two plot twists.

[Anonymous No.21530746]

>>21530722
which one of his books would you say most resemble what i'm looking for? should i still go through spring snow?

[Anonymous No.21530747]

>>21530456
Those are probably the worst first books to read by both of those guys if you're reading them for the reason that I think you're reading them. And I'm probably right because I read both of them for the same reason.

You should probably start with Sailor and Sound of Waves for Mishima and Storm of Steel closely followed by On the Marble Cliffs for Junger.

[Anonymous No.21530769]

>>21529017
>All this Andrew Tate/Bronze Age faggot intentionally homoerotic hypermasculinity stuff is going to
>age so poorly and you guys are legit going to be embarrassed that you associated yourself with it.
I mean, I for one just read mishima because of the faggy content, I'm just very interested about homosex life in post war japan and mishima is def an important character to study in that regard. It's also pretty wild to me how mishima absorbed western homoerotica as a kid and was kind of dahmer'd by just reading like rose elf and mirin renaissance painting of martyrs - no dead animals needed. Guy's pretty broken by the general death cult japan had going on as war preperation, he oddly never mentions any of it as an influence on him but instead almost blames only the western stuff for his obsessions. while it's clear to the somewhat racist westerner like me, that the cannibal motives and the hyperviolence are just a case of the japanese being especially japanese before and during the war. Pretty interesting how frail gay guys like him seem especially vulnerable to machismo death culty stuff. It's also funny how all those incel types run with his /lit/ output as some sort of /fit/ inspo. Quite amusing.

[Anonymous No.21530867]

pretty sure he had survivors guilt after draft doding shorlty before the war ended. I think the death wish he had since childhood wasn't the product of the cited inspo like the western martyr paintings and knight stories but just the general gist of japanese culture then, he just obsessed over these because of that general hype around glorious death for the emperor, he probably spoke for many guys who "failed" to live up to that by just surviving the war, whether or not they even served. and he's gay, that's also kinda intereting.

[Anonymous No.21530879]

pretty sure he had survivors guilt after draft doding shorlty before the war ended. I think the death wish he had since childhood wasn't the product of the cited western inspo like martyr paintings and knight stories but just the general gist of japanese culture then. he just happened to obsess on this "dying prince" arcehtype, in which he saw himself because of his samurai lineage. And because of that general hype around glorious death for the emperor, he probably spoke for many guys who "failed" to live up to that by just surviving the war, whether or not they even served and that made him famous. and he's gay, that's also kinda interesting.

[Anonymous No.21530975]

>>21530061
I assert that there is a difference between suicide and seppuku, even when I know the definition of suicide. There is enough saturation of the terms that some distinction can be made beyond what the popular materialistic definitions would have you think.

[Anonymous No.21531079]

>>21530452
>I think Mishima is sympathetic towards Isao insofar as "his heart is in the right place". My point is I don't think he intended to vindicate him in the end. Isao wants to "exchange his life for a single line of poetry, written in blood" (paraphrasing), but the end result is so far removed from the poetry he envisioned that I don't think he could honestly call it glorious.
>>according to the specific nationalist shinto school his beliefs hinge on
>This is also an important point. Isao is a shintoist, but the tetralogy runs on Buddhist reincarnation (whether it's literal reincarnation or just Honda's interpretation of facts is debatable). The point is not that Isao's political plot fails - it's that he's defeated metaphysically, by dying an impure death and falling under the forces of a foreign religion.

Youve forgotten something very important, Isaos shinto ideals are the ones in the League of Divine Wind novella, theyre completely separate from Hondas Buddhism.

According to Master Oen’s teaching, in the world hidden from men there
is neither life nor death. The life and death of this world about us took its
origin from the Ukei of the gods Izanagi and Izanami. Since men are the
offspring of the gods, however, if they preserve themselves from all
polluting transgression and, upright, just, and pure of heart, worship in the
ancient manner, they can put off the death and corruption of this world and
ascend to heaven to become one with the gods.
Master Oen was wont to recite this poem:
As the white swan soars to heaven,
Leave no traces here below.

This is the essence of Isaos beliefs. And according to this Isao is redeemed, whether Mishima personally considers it "true" or not is completely besides the point, Isao taking a stand and unflinchingly doing what he knows is right as a warrior of the spirit "vindicates" him in the sense that it puts him above everyone else in the nationalist clique and proves that he loyal to the true Japanese spirit until the end, in fact his final act is the only thing that could accomplish that as staying alive would be tantamount to accepting his fathers ways (or anyone else involved with the patriots for that matter). With all this in mind his heart being in the right place makes him a tragic hero, too pure to live on in shame. In this line of thinking Kurahara is still the most significant target as per his transgression against the spirit of Japan. All of this is more or less objective within the frame of the book, whether you "agree" with the ideals or aesthetics of it or not is irrelevant.
The final scene makes it clear that the poetry and beauty lies in the spirit of the act, not in the aesthetics of the location or the time of day. He was the only one in the nationalist clique willing to die for his purity of spirit with no material gain to show for it, justifying him planning the plot in the first place: His ideals were not a vehicle to political gain, they were the only possible option.

[Anonymous No.21531089]

>>21530452
(cont.)
Regarding the more abstract an up to interpretation part of your post
>The fact that he reincarnates into a woman is also significant, as each life elaborates on the failures of previous ones. Kiyoaki is ineffectual; Isao is the man of action. Isao "chases after illusions"; Yin Chao doesn't (see Isao's last conversation with his parents). Yin Chao is oblivious; Toru, conniving.
Whether there was any reincarnation happening or not is left ambiguous. While Isaos talk and visions of being reborn as a woman and Temple seems to all but confirm it Angel leans more towards uncertainty and even foolishness of assuming it to be true (and perhaps even indirectly the folly of being too spiritually assured). As i see it Angel is more or less Mishima coming clean on not being convinced of the buddhist doctrine he so painstakingly lays out for us in Temple and letting us know this was more or less an intellectual/personal exploration of the hereafter and the nature of souls like i mentioned in my earlier posts. The first two books belong together and are only tangentially related to the last two books and vice versa.

[Anonymous No.21531129]

>>21529114
I really hate this meme talk. When you say
>yes
like the funny cartoon man it does not make you look cool and informed. An answer so inflammatory without an explanation makes you seem like a fool to be honest. I don't read this and think "Wow he is probably a trad chad" I think, "Yet another racist retard on 4chan" I'm not even the guy you were responding to. I just felt the need to express that you are stupid. I know it wont matter because you don't actually have a thoughtful opinion, but I just say this in passing.

[Anonymous No.21531224]

>>21529121
>>21529462
>>21530061
Suicide and seppuku are different things, retards. Why even bother reading literature if your autism is at such a level that you're not only an eternal pedant but completely unable to contextualize other minds/cultures?

[Anonymous No.21531231]

>>21531129
There's no reason to explain further because it's clear that the anon in question doesn't have an interest in a good-faith discussion. Obviously he didn't suffer and die for state sanctioned war crimes, he died to prevent his people from coming under the yoke of capitalism, communism, and materialism. Anon should have know this from the previous post, but he didn't care because his intent was not to raise a good point but to attack Mishima. Fair enough if he doesn't like Mishima, but there's nothing to say to that except dismissal like "Yes."
>>21529346
Will be responding to this but I have a bit of work to do. Good post, by the way.

[Anonymous No.21531276]

>>21529101
>hasn't figured out the Chinese lie and spent 3 millennia waging that type of war across Asia and even as far as the Middle East and Eastern Europe

[Anonymous No.21531277]

>>21528715
>ritual suicide isn't suicide

[Anonymous No.21531320]

>>21531079
I didn't intend to go into whether I agree or disagree with Isao's ideas. What I said is: I think he doesn't live up to them, so his suicide fails to purify him. You may say that he's doing what he knows is right as a warrior of the spirit and dies a tragic hero; I think the novel establishes him as the Don Quixote of Mishima's brand of nationalism.

[Anonymous No.21531348]

>>21529346
Good post. I want to make it clear that I know Runaway Horses was not a manifesto, as with the rest of his works. (I also don't think Isao was Mishima's ideal, though this is tangential and we aren't likely to agree.)
My view of Mishima is predicated on two propositions:
>1. That Mishima didn't commit suicide, in the same way that Socrates didn't commit suicide.
>2. That Mishima would have chosen to live if he believed that it would have resulted in a better outcome for Japan.
I am under no illusions that Mishima didn't want to die, I just doubt that he died for this reason. To say that his death is just a performance suicide is not well supported by the content of his debates, lectures, and essays. He had a profound interest in bettering his nation, and I think that he saw this demonstration to be the single most powerful act he could commit to this end. You have the view that Mishima was a single minded suicidal man, I have the view that he was a complex person with varying interests, and that his early interest in suicide was subsumed and overtaken by his political zeal. By 1975, I would say that he had radically transformed from his CoaM days to become an idealistic, driven man whose devaluation of his own life gave him the strength to approach virtue in the pursuit of good.
I don't think he was a perfect ideal man, just that he was NOT a performance artist with a death wish. Such an oversimplification is insulting and unbelievable; It requires more conjecture to assume this than to see his actions for what they were: a demonstration for the "irrationality" of Bushido and the chrysanthemum and sword he so cherished.

[Anonymous No.21531385]

>>21528639
This is /lit/.

[Anonymous No.21531402]

>>21529899
>they had both nukes coming.
never happened, just firebombs and propaganda.

[Anonymous No.21531404]

>>21531277
Suicide itself is an inaccurate word. Did Socrates commit suicide, or was he executed? Mishima was "executed" by Bushido. His death became necessary and, as Socrates, he willingly drank the hemlock.

[Anonymous No.21531430]

>>21531277
Checked. Holy shit you're retarded.

[Anonymous No.21531441]

>Mishima making libtards and trannies seethe from beyond the grave

[Anonymous No.21531659]

>>21531320
Youre just not very good at explaining your point of view. The more i reference the text and point out the flaws in your thinking the shorter your posts get. Your memory of important parts of the book is very shaky and you cant really support why you think what you think beyond that assumably being the understanding you walked away from your read with. What you "think" is not very persuasive when youre not basing it on anything but a somewhat vague memory of having read the book once.

You also got the Don Quixote comparison from my earlier post without really understanding what im saying.

[Anonymous No.21531808]

>>21531348
I think you might be a bit too quick to jump to conclusions and that you might be conflating me with the first guy you were talking to in the thread (the one you respond to is my first itt)

>I also don't think Isao was Mishima's ideal
Not Mishimas ideal, but an image of Mishimas ideal japanese youth (albeit within the specific time and environment of the book).

>To say that his death is just a performance suicide
It was an encapsulation of a wide variety of the sides of Mishimas being, one important part of that being a meticulously constructed performance. He had a need to be remembered.


>You have the view that Mishima was a single minded suicidal man, I have the view that he was a complex person with varying interests, and that his early interest in suicide was subsumed and overtaken by his political zeal. By 1975, I would say that he had radically transformed from his CoaM days to become an idealistic, driven man whose devaluation of his own life gave him the strength to approach virtue in the pursuit of good.
In no way do I think he was a single minded suicidal man, but I do believe suicide was the goal in and of itself as long as it would be "beautiful" enough, hoping that he might have some positive influence on the trajectory of Japan might be a part of that but it doesnt fundamentally change it. Were on the same page at least to some extent. You take his idealism in a more literal way than I do.
From my earlier post: in Mishimas view old age is corruption and (especially in defeat) it is intolerable and almost unforgivable, even being in his forties felt at times intolerable to Mishima and if you want to put it (way too) simply but also somewhat succinctly both Sea (particularily Temple and Angel) and his Tatenokai era ending in suicide was a part of his (unusually complicated and idiosyncratic) midlife crisis.
The idealistic nationalist Mishima saw post war Japan as an emblem of defeat, surrender and extinction but the meticulous and reflected intellectual Mishima was completely aware of the deficiencies in the current nationalist milieu of post war Japan. I think these contradictions among other things lead to him taking the position of the emperors divinity as it marks a strongly old fashioned and uniquely japanese stance that marks him as an old school japanese nationalist that is hard to attack for a japanese nationalist without making concessions on how hardline they are while also being very hard to break down into an intellectual debate without getting abstract (there are many interviews where he discusses his views on policies and more tangible aspects of post war politics and its always very eccentric and almost mazelike.)

[Anonymous No.21531813]

>>21531348
>>21531808
(cont.)
>I don't think he was a perfect ideal man, just that he was NOT a performance artist with a death wish. It requires more conjecture to assume this than to see his actions for what they were: a demonstration for the "irrationality" of Bushido and the chrysanthemum and sword he so cherished.

Youre making a mistake if you think turning his suicide into what you could describe as performance art means that he is nothing but a "performance artist with a death wish". He was an exceedingly complicated and often contradictory person, while its true he changed with age all aspects of him are "the real Mishima". Another five years and he would have moved his focus once again, (something he was acutely aware of himself) except that this time the fear of old age and decay had really gotten into his bones, couple that with the troubled transient nature of Japan at the time and you have a piece of the final picture right there. Runaway Horses is often brought up when discussing his suicide but i believe the novella "Sword" from the "acts of worship" collection more accurately describes something close to his personal views on suicide.

[Anonymous No.21531855]

>>21528715
>Firstly, Mishima didn't commit suicide, he committed seppuku.
massive cope

[Anonymous No.21531923]

>>21528980
Bacon boy NO!

[Anonymous No.21531926]

>>21528718
Damn what a cuck

[Anonymous No.21531964]

"life as art" is disgusting, vain, and effeminate.

[Anonymous No.21531984]

>>21529955
>There are some things worth fighting for
This not does logically follow from your desire to go help slavs fight in some dung-heap over in eastern europe. You're a filthy postmodernist and have no real intention of defending ancestral lands.

[Anonymous No.21532024]

>>21528634
is blood meridian blackpilled?

[Anonymous No.21532032]

>>21531964
life is disgusting, vain, and effeminate.

[Anonymous No.21532185]

>>21530706
You are an illiterate retard with 2nd grade comprehension

[Anonymous No.21532199]

>>21532032
post bussy

[Anonymous No.21532239]

>>21531808
>>21531813
All reasonable. We won't be able to speak to Mishima directly and I have a feeling he wouldn't answer directly anyway.

[Anonymous No.21532280]

>>21528715
>annals
I just remmember that Borges named "anales" to his publishing house. He was such a virgin kek

[Anonymous No.21532303]

who's the most brownpilled author?

[Anonymous No.21532315]

>>21529017
I agree. Guarantee you that every one of these fags are some middle-class 16-25 year old that just discovered reading 6 months ago.

[Anonymous No.21532353]

>>21528938
pretty based

[Anonymous No.21532362]

>>21528948
Hard times create hard men.
Hard men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times.

[Anonymous No.21532394]

>>21529911
>worthless human garbage than Mishima
>worthless
Good boy, don't forget to vote next time. Choose humanity.
>/lit/ has no hope
100+ points.
Hope is based. It is the only option. Good boy.

[Anonymous No.21532406]

>>21532394
How long have you had irreversible brain damage? My condolences.

[Anonymous No.21532466]

>>21532406
Go defend hope in Steven Pinkers threads, good boy

[Anonymous No.21532674]

>>21531659
My posts got shorter as the night went on and I got tired.
>Youre just not very good at explaining your point of view.
I told you specifically what parts of your post I (dis)agreed with. I wrote:
>I don't think Mishima intended to vindicate him in the end. Isao wants (...) but the end result is so far removed from the poetry he envisioned that I don't think he could honestly call it glorious.
Your interpretation of this must have been something like: he thinks Mishima personally disagrees with Isao, and that Isao fails because the landscape for his suicide is wrong.
What I mean with "Mishima didn't intend to vindicate him": Mishima did not write the ending to be a glorious enactment of Isao's ideals. There is no mention of his personal beliefs here. The reason it's not a triumphant ending is explained in the very next sentence: "too far-removed from the poetry he envisioned." You assumed I was only referring to the tangible aspects of the suicide. This is indeed my fault, since I did focus on that in the previous post. I wanted to use the same term Isao does, but I should've elaborated.
Isao's poetry is one of single-minded devotion to a god-like vision of the Emperor. The time and location of Isao's suicide are important, as they relate directly to his identification of the Emperor with the Sun (constant throughout the novel). In this sense, I think the fact that he commits his crime at night and dies in a cave is important symbolically: he's been forced to give up on the "illusion" he "chased after".
This is a direct result of Isao's contact with corruption. The core of his poetry is the intent of his actions. Isao's devotion allows for "sin" (as he says in his conversation with Toin) and crime, because "man cannot move right or left without sinning, anyway" (in this sense, Isao doesn't consider himself pure at all). However, they must be motivated by dedication to the Emperor's Sun. As he explains to Toin, whether the Emperor himself takes his offering or not is irrelevant. No matter the result, he can commit seppuku gratefully: the offering could have never lived up to the Emperor's greatness, but it was whole-hearted.
The term "quxotic" is commonplace, so to say I borrowed the comparison from your post is somewhat conceited. Regardless, here I see the first parallel with Don Quixote. Isao's actions may seem outrageous to observers, but he's trying to conduct himself according to lofty ideals which demand absolute dedication, and which don't concern themselves with practicalities or the matter-of-fact workings of society (in his conversation with Sawa, Isao prides himself in not knowing how the Academy got funding). Naivety, in this sense, is seen as a proof of purity.

[Anonymous No.21532754]

>>21531659
>>21532674
The problem is that Don Quixote's actions do not, in fact, support the ideals he intends to defend. He constantly attacks innocents or otherwise puts them in danger. In the second part of the book, he starts to question himself, and dies after renouncing chivalrous literature.
Isao's case is similar. Throughout the novel, he doesn't conduct himself according to shinto: he twists shinto into agreeing with what he already intends to do. One example is that he decides the date for the attack personally, after receiving no sign from the gods in the ritual. More significantly, he discovers a conflict of interests: he has profited from Kurahara's money, and cannot murder him without going against his father. From this moment on, it is impossible for him to kill him in a pure manner. This is why he initially assigns someone else to do it, and why he gets angry at Sawa: he could not kill Kurahara while maintaining full dedication to the Emperor.
His mindset changes after being released from prison, though. If Isao had wanted to regain his dignity after being released from prison, he could've committed seppuku immediately, like a samurai who's about to be captured in the battlefield. In this manner, he would have shown full dedication to his code of conduct, while avoiding to give an impure offering to the Emperor. However, he changes his initial plan and kills Kurahara personally. Considering everything that had happened before, this murder can not be taken as an impersonal and devoted offering to the emperor. Indeed, Kurahara is still, in his eyes, the embodiment of an illness in the Japanese spirit. However, Isao does not kill him to strike against this disease: it is a personal assassination, in which Isao directs his own feelings of anger and frustration against Iinuma, Makiko, and by extension the hypocrisy and cowardice of Japanese society, towards Kurahara. He emulates the League's actions but fails to carry with him any of the spiritual background. Hence, his seppuku does not redeem him, and the ending is not glorious.
This is not me personally disagreeing with Isao's philosophy: this is my interpretation of the events in the novel.

[Anonymous No.21532824]

>>21528828
Good post

[Anonymous No.21532827]

>>21528844
This is disturbingly true.

[Anonymous No.21532837]

>>21528912
Mishima transcended basedness

[Anonymous No.21532843]

>>21531224
>>21530975
>I assert that there is a difference between suicide and seppuku
>Suicide and seppuku are different things
>死ぬ自殺の一方法

[Anonymous No.21532855]

>>21528948
<You deserves to be ridiculed. Did you ever stop and wonder why people are revolted by things like globohomo, materialism, feminism, neoliberalism, and philosemitism? It's shameful and disgusting to celebrate and you deserve to be mocked and humiliated for wanting to cause more undue suffering because you're a comfort and convenience addicted sick retarded fuck

[Anonymous No.21532859]

>>21528980
You are a militant faggot. Enjoy your cultural AIDS and Star Wars fan fiction

[Anonymous No.21532860]

Seppuku is suicide and suicide is based.
>But seppuku is a ritual
every suicide is a ritual

13. Men are foolish who reflect thus: "One person will say that my conduct was not brave enough; another, that I was too headstrong; a third, that a particular kind of death would have betokened more spirit." What you should really reflect is: "I have under consideration a purpose with which the talk of men has no concern!" Your sole aim should be to escape from Fortune as speedily as possible; otherwise, there will be no lack of persons who will think ill of what you have done.

[Anonymous No.21532863]

kek

[Anonymous No.21533134]

>>21532843
You retarded faggot. You're one of those retards that would start jizzing himself that racism means 'prejudice + power' alone just because that's what it says in the dictionary, if the fags tried rewriting it. Use your own mind to realize that there are nuances that normalfaggots don't acknowledge.

[Anonymous No.21533139]

>>21530747
I've already read Storm of Steel by Junger and feel that I would very much benefit from Eumeswil now. I've read nothing by Mishima but one of my friends is a Mishima fanboy and he very strongly recommended Golden Pavilion to me, and the themes he mentioned sound right up my alley.

[Anonymous No.21533145]

>>21528828
That's a quintessentially European noblesse oblige type of idea. Not to say I disagree, I'm white too, but I doubt Mishima saw things the same way.

[Anonymous No.21533154]

>>21533134
>You retarded faggot

[Anonymous No.21533204]

>>21533154
It doesn't matter. Did Socrates commit suicide just because he is the one that physically killed his own self? There are nuances when people use words that aren't considered by the rigid definition of the word. Mishima committed suicide in the purely mechanical manner- in this way you can claim suicide. Seppuku is a practice that entails the physical killing of the self-- again suicide-- but which is not explained by the word suicide.
I want to make a distinction because of the incapacity of the word suicide to explain what happened. Again with Socrates; he had the choice to refuse the hemlock, but did he still commit suicide? Was he executed? He also had the option of escape, which meant that "suicide" wasn't unavoidable. Did that mean he wanted to die and selected death?
I can accept, if you were to say Socrates's death was "Execution by Suicide", that Mishima also experienced Execution by Suicide. I just see the definition, both Japanese and English, as inadequate. Socrates's death became necessary to demonstrate his philosophy and ideal, as did Mishima. This brought both of them into a situation in which they were required to accept death.

[Anonymous No.21533242]

>>21533204

[Anonymous No.21533255]

>>21528634
>>21528715
>>21528718
>>21528727
gay

[Anonymous No.21533280]

>>21533242

[Anonymous No.21533825]

reading the events leading up to his death on Wikipedia is hilarious, he tried to inspire a coup among his soldiers, failed, then kills himself a few minutes later? That’s not seppuku that’s just being a huge loser. The worst part is he was only 45

[Anonymous No.21533840]

>>21528715
Material nihilism remains undefeated. Nice try...

[Anonymous No.21533863]

>>21533840
One of the characteristics of idealists is to fight even when failure is almost guaranteed. When there is something or someone you truly love and wish to protect, death is nothing. In either case evil will win, but in one of them you accept that evil and become its accomplice; Mishima refused to become complicit in evil.
This is entirely foreign to an egoistic self-centered retard. They might gripe about LE SOCIETY BAD or other shit, but when it comes down to it they really enjoy that society- they prove their complicity by the very fact that they take part in in, and look down their noses at the people that do exactly what would be necessary for change.
People make fun of burgers for good reason. They are founded on revolution and insurrection, their constitution gives them the unequivocal right to bear weapons for the sole purpose of allowing them to commit an insurrection should tyrants prevail, yet no one does anything while this very same thing occurs. And faggots that constantly complain about how shit their government is and masturbate online about marxian revolutions, che guevara, or race wars look down their faggy noses at those who take the first step and do what is necessary with the FULL KNOWLEDGE that they WILL die because they are on the proverbial frontlines with no expectation of reward.
"Heh, cuck. Fighting for something he will never benefit from."

[Anonymous No.21533883]

>>21533863
You just don't get it man. You think on a small scale.

[Anonymous No.21533886]

>>21533883
Ride the Tiger faggot

[Anonymous No.21533906]

>>21528851
mishima thought death was hot

[Anonymous No.21533923]

>>21533863
What is necessary for change?

[Anonymous No.21533960]

>>21533204
What aesthetic idealism does to a mf

[Anonymous No.21534094]

>>21532674
Youre still fundamentally misunderstanding the ending. Instead of considering what im saying you reformat the same thoughts in a very evasive manner. This will be my final response.

To an extent youre confused by the tangible lack of glory in the ending, which is somewhat understandable. What you seem very averse to grasping is that in spite of that Isao conducted himself in the only way possible to maintain his integrity.

>More significantly, he discovers a conflict of interests: he has profited from Kurahara's money, and cannot murder him without going against his father. From this moment on, it is impossible for him to kill him in a pure manner. This is why he initially assigns someone else to do it, and why he gets angry at Sawa

This is correct, he is angered that his perfect plan is spoiled, the fact that a pure and idealized act like the one in the pamphlet describes is not realistic is an important part of the book and on that weve agreed since the beginning. Its important to note that he cant confirm Kuraharas financial ontribution at this point.

>is mindset changes after being released from prison, though. If Isao had wanted to regain his dignity after being released from prison, he could've committed seppuku immediately, like a samurai who's about to be captured in the battlefield. In this manner, he would have shown full dedication to his code of conduct, while avoiding to give an impure offering to the Emperor.

Thats not really how it works, he tried to attempt suicide when they were arrested but he failed meaning he missed his chance while still maintaining the right mindset. This dishonor of this is one part of why he needs a redeeming act (in the eyes of Mishima).

>However, he changes his initial plan and kills Kurahara personally. Considering everything that had happened before, this murder can not be taken as an impersonal and devoted offering to the emperor. Indeed, Kurahara is still, in his eyes, the embodiment of an illness in the Japanese spirit.

The perfect plan is already spoiled. The question at this point is how Isao can achieve an acceptable suicide, the perfect poetic suicide has already been revealed to him as chimerical in the modern age.

[Anonymous No.21534106]

>>21532674
>>21532754
>>21534094

(cont.)
>it is a personal assassination, in which Isao directs his own feelings of anger and frustration against Iinuma, Makiko, and by extension the hypocrisy and cowardice of Japanese society, towards Kurahara.

It is indeed personal, but not in the sense you seem to think. He isnt incensed by the actions of the rest of the patriots and makes a decision to take it out on someone else, he knows passively accepting the situation with the knowledge he now has is a defeat much worse than the plot being foiled and looks for a way to preserve his spirit, which makes seppuku his only choice.
From my earlier post: Isao is perfectly aware that his killing will have at best no political effect and at worst one that makes nationalists seem foolish, he is coming to terms with the political framing and poetical location was vain and that the act has been the important thing all along, to defy the age of decay and stand his ground, even if it makes him a fool in the eyes of society. Even if the earthly reason to kill Kurahara is gone he is still the ultimate symbol of the corruption that clutches the spirit of Japan, the fact that this corruption does not need Kurahara is at this point irrelevant as Isao is now doing this for himself.

>He emulates the League's actions but fails to carry with him any of the spiritual background.

Thats is exactly what he does not: Hes well aware that he wont have a perfectly pure and glorious backdrop for his death because that kind of idea of perfection is the kind an aging nationalistic novelist comes up with to prove a point rather than being something that can be emulated successfully.

[Anonymous No.21534113]

>>21532674
>>21532754
>>21534106
(cont.)
>Hence, his seppuku does not redeem him, and the ending is not glorious.
His seppuku is the only way for him to stay true to the samurai spirit. After all Isaos wish to die already stems from the corruption of the age he lived in and the impossibility of the coexistence pure shinto ideals and honorable samurai with said age.
Isao starts out as a naive nationalist clutching a pamphlet and a journey of harsh realizations ends up coming to the conclusion that the only thing left for someone like him to do in the early showa era is to commit ritual suicide. The fact that he does not simply accept this and goes on to get a job as an accountant or a patriotic schoolmaster is extremely important to the overall meaning of the book. Isaos final action is a radical spiritual affirmation that he refuses to give in. From Mishimas point of view a real tragic hero, from a western perspective not so much. Cervantes considered Don Quixote to be an idiotic fool who should have accepted reality and a vessel he uses to mock traditional spanish values and ideals, Mishima considered Isao to be a warrior on the battlefield of the spirit and a tragic example of how the true japanese samurai was gone forever.

I.e. This book is Mishimas own personal lamentation that in modernity true samurai spirit and dedication to the spirit of Japan the way it was known to them in the old days was forever lost. Youre not disagreeing with Isao, youre disagreeing with Mishima. Your interpretation is essentially what happens if you hardheadedly attempt to read this as a western novel where the japanese elements are some sort of fantasy universe ruleset. If youre unwilling to read Mishima on his own terms youre always gonna walk away from his books not really understanding exactly what it is you just read.

[Anonymous No.21534215]

Mishima threads always have extremely autistic, highly literate discussions.

[Anonymous No.21534356]

>>21534094
>>21534106
>>21534113
I appriciated reading these posts.

[Anonymous No.21534383]

>>21534113
>If youre unwilling to read Mishima on his own terms youre always gonna walk away from his books not really understanding exactly what it is you just read.
Yeah, Mishima is so zealously idealistic that it is impossible to understand without this.

[Anonymous No.21534635]

>>21534094
>>21534106
>>21534113
>The ending of the book shows a tangible lack of glory: Isao's original ideals were naive and irrealizable in the corruption of the Showa era, and he kills Kurahara and himself to protest against that corruption.
This is a good take, but an altogether different one from:
>glorious youth going out in a beautiful blaze never having known decay
which is what was disputed from the beginning.

[Anonymous No.21534764]

>>21534635
Thats the thing my friend, as I have lengthily explained to you, to Mishima Isaos final act IS going out in a beautiful blaze on the battlefield of the spirit which is of course made possible by his splendid and glorious youth and the decay in question here is old age and living knowingly in disgrace.

[Anonymous No.21534809]

>>21534764
>to Mishima Isaos final act IS going out in a beautiful blaze on the battlefield
He goes out in a literal blaze of glory. It's the last line of the book.

[Anonymous No.21534986]

>>21529920
>The idealistic nationalist Mishima saw post war Japan as an emblem of defeat, surrender and extinction but the meticulous and reflected intellectual Mishima was completely aware of the deficiencies in the current nationalist milieu of post war Japan. I think these contradictions among other things lead to him taking the position of the emperors divinity as it marks a strongly old fashioned and uniquely japanese stance that marks him as an old school japanese nationalist that is hard to attack for a japanese nationalist without making concessions on how hardline they are while also being very hard to break down into an intellectual debate without getting abstract (there are many interviews where he discusses his views on policies and more tangible aspects of post war politics and its always very eccentric and almost mazelike.)
I don't have much to add except that this is very interesting and I'm glad you put it to words. I've read all of Mishima's fiction that was translated into English but now I want to take a look at his more tangible writings, I have a feeling I'm going to end up learning Japanese for this.

[Anonymous No.21534991]

>>21528634
Julius Evola

[Anonymous No.21535234]

>>21534764
I focused too much on showing how Isao's actions differ from the League's and failed to consider enough if that might have merit in itself. I agree completely that the most disgraceful thing to do, in his and Mishima's view, would be to live on. Since the end murder is intensely personal, it doesn't match his pamphlet, but on the other hand it is not puffed up, and shows a whole-hearted repudiation of "corruption" ("As everything in life is but a sham, death is the only sincerity."). There's none of the awkwardness or conceit that he sometimes showed when he was preparing his plot.

Thanks for discussing the book with me for so long. I see how it might have been frustrating, but I wasn't trying to be evasive or move the goal posts. My initial reply was facetious, but here >>21532674 >>21532754 I was actually trying to make myself as clear as possible, so you could answer decisively if you felt like it. I think you have. I've actually read the book fairly recently, so obviously I need to reflect more about it, and read it again in some time.

[Anonymous No.21535640]

>>21535234
Based reasonable anon

[Anonymous No.21535768]

There's a lot to consider in Mishima's views on death, but it's also where to some extent I lose faith in the process of constructing arguments and maybe reason itself, because I can construct any argument I like. I could argue that it's more heroic to grow old, watch your body slowly decay, and endure it, accept it, give up control and observe yourself become physically more pathetic with detachement until the final moment. Is it really more enlightened to go out in a blaze? Escape? And leave your wife and children behind? Also, I think Mishima, like a true actor, needed an audience and his last day was supposed to be a spectacle that would shock people, create a vivid image that would be contemplated by generations. Obviously there is a self-centered, narcissistic component to that which can make it seem like an excersice in vanity. And if he really was obsessed with the thought of his self-imposed death, you can again construct the argument that it would have been a greater achievement to consciously reject that desire and endure life even when everything within you wants you to choose your own death.

[Anonymous No.21535929]

>>21535768
You bring up an interesting topic. First you have to ask yourself what you mean by words such as "heroic"? What is "heroic"? Is it doing what is bad for the self? Is it risking oneself for others? Much disagreement comes from linguistic misunderstandings.

[Anonymous No.21535939]

>>21530706
You have be 18 to post here.

[Anonymous No.21535956]

How come 90% of people completely misread his works and his deeds? All you have to do is read Mishimas biography by John Nathan to figure it all out.
It's right there.

[Anonymous No.21535961]

>>21535956
>reading a biography
>indoctrinating yourself with someone else's biases
Your urethra requires the insertion of razor blades, anon.

[Anonymous No.21535989]

>>21535961
stay clueless boss

[Anonymous No.21536036]

>>21533863
Great post. This is the essence of Mishima and why he was so great.

[Anonymous No.21536043]

>>21533883
You’re not going to do anything.

[Anonymous No.21536207]

>>21528634
Friendly reminder not to become blackpilled, Christ loves you

[Anonymous No.21536226]

>>21536043
Nobody is. You still don't understand. Dust to dust.

[Anonymous No.21536383]

>>21533863
What did Mishima end up doing with his suicide? Idealists seem depraved.

[Anonymous No.21536440]

>>21528961
>You can suffer just as well in peace as in war
A baby screams the moment it is hungry, and an adult does not. Why is hunger such a horrendous experience for a baby but not for an adult? Because the baby doesn't know anything else, while the adult knows pain greater and has character greater than a few hours' hunger. In peace, you can suffer only from untampered desires, unrealistic expectations, or ignorance. If you are suffering in the comfort of a peaceful society, it is quite literally the case that you are like a little baby.

Grow the fuck up and stop honestly believing the sort of asinine shit that's coming out of your brain.

[Anonymous No.21536509]

>>21536383
What do you mean by "end up doing"? He demonstrated the sincerity of his words with the hopes that the Japanese people would realize that he wasn't just another corrupt politician hoping to empower himself on social issues he cares nothing for. Whether he succeeded or not doesn't really matter. Would you look down your nose at someone that ran into a house fire to save his family and died not having saved them? If so, you're just egoistic person and there's no point in trying to understand idealism.

[Anonymous No.21536918]

>>21529121
All seppuku are suicide but not all suicide are seppuku

[Anonymous No.21536920]

>>21536440
Babies scream when they're hungry instinctively because that triggers an instinctive response in their caregiver to feed them.
PS the grass is truly greener on the other side for you. It's never been true for anyone else which is why it's a saying, but for you personally, it's absolutely true! Look how much greener that grass is! Faggot.

[Anonymous No.21537023]

>>21528961
You're right.
>>21536440
Suffering for the purpose of experiencing pleasure? Worthless. Suffering to create a lasting future for your people, one that is not a decadent slide into depravity and nihilism? Meaningful.
More suffering now to prevent an immense increase in future suffering is a good thing. War can be a justified manner in which future suffering can be prevented.

[Anonymous No.21537314]

>>21528715
truly based analysis of our twentieth century's greatest author

[Anonymous No.21537422]

>>21528634
How come nobody did a pointing Basedjak edit with Mizoguchi pointing towards the Golden Pavillion? It's practically begging for it. I even think he mentions making this face at some point due to his stuttering.

[Anonymous No.21537446]

>>21536226
You like being a Lastman. Some people don’t and are forced to do something, anything, about it. You have all your rationalizations lined up which all coincidentally enable your endless masturbation, comfort seeking and convenience addiction. You are a faggot coward of the highest order.

[Anonymous No.21537532]

>>21528935
nobody cares about this faggot because unlike Mishima he produced no valuable art
>>21528948
>>21529017
>>21528980
notice, dear reader, how obsessed with fitting in every single one of this cretins is-and on an anonymous anime imageboard no less. this all of this people will ever have, no matter how much society changes and no matter how much they might needlessly suffer because of it they will never alter their attitude

[Anonymous No.21537539]

>>21537446
Fighting a strawman just proves you're an idiot. You do realize how blatantly you are doing that, right? Its embarrassing. You aren't defending your point at all. Materialist nihilism still all time undefeated champ. Keep coping.

[Anonymous No.21537547]

>>21537539
So what? Capitalism is the undefeated champ. So fuck all the worthless retards that fight back, right?
Muh white patriarchy is the undefeated champ. So fuck the retards that fight back, right?

[Anonymous No.21537563]

after reading a whopping grand total of 1 (one) mishima book, i get the feeling that he just couldn't accept that the age of the samurai had come and gone without him ever having experienced it
with the idea of samurai being replaced by more contemporary professions like factory workers i guess he just had to find ways to channel his frustrations and being an artist at heart, he created art

[Anonymous No.21537568]

>>21537563
Very simplified view, but you're on the right track for only one book read.

[Anonymous No.21537573]

>>21528948
You're gross and pathetic and people who think the opposite of you naturally stir the hearts of men for a reason.
Anyway Mishima doesn't deserve to be ridiculed for that he deserves to be ridiculed for basically idolizing giving up and dying over fighting. The image of resistance, rather than the reality. It's repugnant.

[Anonymous No.21537578]

>>21537568
what do you think

[Anonymous No.21537593]

>>21537578
What you say is actually true, although he wasn't motivated only by frustration for not living in the era of samurai.

[Anonymous No.21537601]

>>21537593
he also liked seeing young men in those japanese man-thongs

[Anonymous No.21537605]

>>21537593
i mean what are your thoughts on mishima

[Anonymous No.21537683]

>>21528733
He didnt plan to succeed. It was a renunciation of modern Japan and an attempt to distance himself from the age that surrounded him. The first half of Spring Snow spells it out, and the entirety of Runaway Horses makes it so obvious that its crazy how anyone can possibly read Mishima and not understand this

[Anonymous No.21537814]

>>21537683
I've read spring snow but honestly I couldnt quite make the connection between the plot of that book and Mishimas politics and actions. Could you elaborate maybe?

[Anonymous No.21537873]

>>21537814

[Anonymous No.21537894]

Do japs even care or know about Mishima at all? Obviously nobody in the west even knows who he is. Just losers on 4chan from what I can tell. If I asked 10 random japs off the street could they name one of his books? any of his ideas? I doubt it.

[Anonymous No.21537898]

>>21537894
Most Japanese boomers know who he is but very few zoomers.

[Anonymous No.21537936]

>>21537898
Guess he is being obliterated by materialist nihilism like everything else, huh.

[Anonymous No.21537949]

>>21537936
Yes. Idealists don't fight because they think they'll win. You literally do not even have the ability to understand. To you everything is a balancing act of how much a person can benefit from some act.

[Anonymous No.21538024]

>>21537949
No, to me it's all a zero sum game brother. It ain't nothing to me.

[Anonymous No.21538042]

>>21538024
To elaborate a little, it's just basic thermodynamics. We are going back to zero. Nothing matters at all. Zero.

[Anonymous No.21538488]

>>21529101
>Nanking

[Anonymous No.21538686]

>>21532843
>t, eternal pedant completely unable to contextualize other minds/cultures
Different connotations. Different culture. You're a retard.