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/lit/ - Literature


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21487302 No.21487302 [Reply] [Original]

His whole philosophy has become obsolete. There is zero redeeming value in his writings today.

>> No.21487332

>>21487302
IDK, hauntology seems exactly right. You have steampunk and dieselpunk, essentially an interest in past futurism. You also see it a lot on /pol/ with people looking up to Nazi futurism, and most powerfully in the culture at large with people looking up to the 1950- early-1960s post-New Deal Consensus Era vision of what 2020 might look like.

Capitalist realism sounds exactly right but he is missing the point, which Fukuyama gets at better, although he also misses it by misreading Hegel.

There is no going back and on doing capitalism, but modern capitalism contains its own contradictions that will lead to crisis, sublation, and the emergence of a new form.

Fukuyama missed that capitalist liberalism didn't simply beat socialism and fascist-nationalism, rather is sublated core elements into itself. Every liberal state grounds its authority in nationalism. An Algerian vote for the Algerian people. If Israel was still 70% Jewish, few would accept simply giving Palestinians the vote as acceptable, legitimacy is grounded in liberalism for a certain group.

Likewise, every modern liberal state has pensions, healthcare (even the US spends trillions of healthcare for the poor and old), child labor laws, universal education, progressive income tax, etc., all socialist demands.

Modern liberalism sublated socialism and nationalism. Now mass migration undermines national identity and global problems, water rights, ocean acidification, recalcitrant mega corps, etc. also require extra national solutions to enforce socialism. The new inequality threatening social order is between the developing world and the developed one.

More sublation, the dialectical marching on. Hegel never becomes obsolete.

>> No.21487345

>>21487302
in retrospect, he was pathetic

>> No.21487361

Another whiner who would rather kill himself than his supposed enemies. Every intellectual seems to lean this way. What is intellectual activity these days but endless pussyfooting around the question of who is a net negative and who deserves to be harmed by actual consequences of intellectual activity?

>> No.21487367

>be nick land fan
>only know fisher through land
>which basically comes down to 'nick land was right, time to kill myself' understanding

while tragic, fisher did nothing wrong
there is no future outside nicklandian capitalism ai
marx was the original '2 more weeks' guy, calling for the end of capitalism over 200 times, 200 years ago
soviet union ideological pseuds/intellectuals too predicted over a 1000 the ends of capitalism

the only way out of this tiresome phase, is to accelerate it

>> No.21487375

>>21487332
>The new inequality threatening social order is between the developing world and the developed one.
Reminds me of that time a semi-industrialised country had a socialist revolution and spent forty years trying to spread its ideology in the third world.

>> No.21487384

>>21487302
there was never any value to begin with in any philosophy past Feuerbach. it's just detached petty-bourgeois with ennui masturbating intellectually

>> No.21487413

>>21487332
IMO his hauntology in "Ghosts" is very weak if you've read the work that he's cribbing, which is Derrida's "Spectres." Derrida makes a much more sophisticated argument about the way in which history is a disembodied virtual process (or a spectre) which has a complex relation with justice (which Derrida understands as a fundamentally temporal phenomenon) and the way it creates the possibility of the future. Fisher's vast simplification kinda just says "nostalgia = bad" if I remember correctly.

The rest of what you said is interesting and requires a longer response but I will simply paraphrase Zizek who likes to observe that "now even Fukuyama is not a Fukuyama-ist"

>>21487367
Land's exorbitant rejection of dialectics (as if we can actually access or encourage pure exteriority) seems pretty puerile. There are compelling critiques of his position from Negarestani and Mackay.

>> No.21487460

>>21487413
Isn't Derrida's concept of "Spectres" just an another ripoff of Blanchot's concept "outside"?

>> No.21487536

>>21487413
well dialectics arent an empirical, scientific method
you can always play the pseud word game and just say that landian ai is the final result of dialectics of historical materialism and technological progress and blah blah anyway, no?

idk man i just find nick land a lot of fun

>> No.21487651

>>21487302
getting ironically into mark fisher this 2023, stanning that xenogothic fag. LARPing as a woke ''anticapitalist'' with no political program in order to get a brainwashed harem of goth transgirls and maybe sell fisher themed NFTs.

>> No.21487674

>>21487302
I thought he was considered much more of a popularizer of Theory than a developer of it.

>> No.21487678

i am interested in what he calls hauntology and the culture, music and overall aesthetics associated but i honestly have zero interest in the capitalism critique
any anons can direct me towards some of his work or other authors?

>> No.21487732

>>21487536
I always understood dialectics as a formalization of the scientific process. If Newtonian Mechanics was a thesis, then its antithesis was the Michelson-Morley experiment, and the synthesis was general relativity.

>> No.21487818
File: 308 KB, 1488x295, capitalistRealism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21487818

>>21487302
I made a youtube video discussing (and refuting) his book
https://youtu.be/cNyUx1CBv6Y

I do find it funny that Bernie bro's "third way" shtick, trying to mark democratic socialism as a third alternative to socialism and capitalism goes against Fisher's whole thesis

>> No.21487851

>>21487732
scientific processes have predictive power
philosophical ones do not
this is why philosophers are always generals after the battle, why they always point stuff out with their 20/20 hindsight, but havent contributed anything useful or predicted anything important since at least scientific revolution

if it has no more predictive power than gypsy fortune telling, i treat is as seriously as gypsy fortune telling, that's modern philosophy these days, /x/ tier shitposting

>> No.21487876

Yet you are still talking about him

>> No.21487968

>>21487361
> who is a net negative

Most people are net negative. They have military superiority & wont allow you to stop them

>> No.21487979

>>21487732
Newtonian mechanics hasn't been disregarded. It's used daily in almost all fields of engineering.

>> No.21488030

>>21487979
It has been. Engineering, and really all of the things we see in our daily lives, exist only as a special case of general relativity where velocities are near zero, at least compared to c. When this is the case, the effects of special relativity are so small as to be unnoticable, and the results of general relativity are roughly equal to those of newtonian mechanics. But newtonian mechanics only exists as an assumption, similar to how engineers will approximate trig identities for small angles with [sin(x) = x], while everyone knows this isn't really true.

>> No.21488118

It's good for understanding the schizophrenic mind produced by academic power-producing mental gymnastics

>> No.21488194

>>21488030
A lot of typing to say we still use Newtonian mechanics for basically everything.

>> No.21488304

>>21487361
>implying negative influence is quantifiable
Also. If you have to kill your intellectual adversary then you’re basically just proving them right, insofar as you’re so incapable of overcoming their arguments that the only alternative is violence. I know you think you’re cool ‘n’ edgy for endorsing it but its clear that you haven’t thought this through

>> No.21488327

>>21488304
>if you kill your enemies they win

>> No.21488519

>>21487460
huh really? which Blanchot text? never knew Blanchot to talk about virtuality with Marx

>>21487536
not sure what you're getting at - do you think Land is an empiricist? he is not

Land is definitely a lot of fun, I just think he has a instinctive fear of politics, and uses a techno-reactionary ideology to avoid the conclusion that power requires violent struggle i.e. interiority

But yeah man, I love Land, and think he's one of the best Anglophone writers living today

>> No.21488522
File: 29 KB, 600x400, 76D4BFC0-FC9D-4C69-B10E-483F84CCA056.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21488522

>>21488327
Yes. Haven’t you seen Star Wars?

>> No.21488582

>>21487345
Listen to his voice, he's a pathetic faggot who kills himself cos le capitalism xD.
I'd think the system was rigged against me if I looked and sounded like this little queer

>> No.21488710

>>21488519
when something is devoid of predictive power and empirical methods, i consider it entertaining
which is why i dont get philosophy obsession on this board
they pretend here that reading philosophy is any different from reading fiction

so when it comes to philosophy, i only appreciate entertaining authors and one of the most entertaining one is nick land

>> No.21488880

>>21487332
I like this interpretatio . Can you suggest more reading material?

>> No.21488919

>>21487413
>in which
lol, ok then

>> No.21489515

>>21488710
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RECuQaaGGfA

>> No.21489522

>>21487302
There is value in his writings, you can see someone BTFO by Fukuyama and documenting his despair to the point of suicide.

>> No.21489532

>>21487302
Philosophy tries to shape morality. What morality do you see? Society is held together by laws alone, and even those are staples stretched to their limits in this modern world.

>> No.21489560

>>21488304
>insofar as you’re so incapable of overcoming their arguments that the only alternative is violence
Nah, it's not about in/ability, sometimes it's just faster.

>> No.21489576

>>21487302
There isn't much value in any philosopher who just rehashes old ideas but applies a cool sounding word to it to make it sound novel. I mean philosophy has always been like that but these contemporary dudes think edgy equals original.

>> No.21489682

>>21487332
What you're saying is fairly obvious but the general population is so thoroughly indoctrinated that they can only see Liberalism as one of many competing systems that simply won the war. Even supposed opponents of Liberalism only go so deep as to decry "wokeism" as an attack on Liberal civilization. No one seems to understand that we live in an incredibly homogenized global society that has sublated every other worldview, culture, religion, political philosophy and economic system. Even countries like China who are illiberal will still cooperate in this global society and adopt most tenets of market capitalism. There is very little conflict. There is no apocalypse or world war on the horizon. We're just bored, stagnant, depraved and impotent. This decadence produces a myriad of new challenges and contradictions since we're too arrogant to reassess our foundations or come up with solutions.

>> No.21489775

>>21489576
>There isn't much value in any philosopher who just rehashes old ideas but applies a cool sounding word to it to make it sound novel
Fisher is literally doing the opposite with the use of a term like “hauntology”. The word is the same but the meaning is different in that he’s using it to refer to the specific context of neoliberal hegemony and the spectres of alternative futures that haunt it. Why shouldn’t language evolve alongside the complexity of the world it reflects on?

>> No.21490378
File: 3.76 MB, 600x338, 1652994404085.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21490378

>>21487302
Genuine question, what would Mark Fisher say about the general drift away from nostalgic-satirical hauntology (2010s) to disintegration-driven and anxiety-driven hauntology in the 2020s? Because I have a theory that
>analog horror
>liminal spaces
>the caretaker's everywhere at the end of time
>the british windmill scene, music like black midi, bcnr, squid
all represent the same exact tendencies of disintegration and anxiety as a continuation of nostalgia's late-stage transformation into a sort of less-familiar fear brought on by a slip into cultural dementia. It's also weird that uncanny AI (familiar enough but not enough to stop being creepy) has been growing in power lately. Almost as if these superstructural outgrowths really do coincide as they do because of the dialectic of the material base.

>> No.21491227

>>21490378
>Caretaker
Uhhh... Check his blog. Mark took him as serious as Burial.
https://bluelabyrinths.com/2021/02/02/anti-hauntology-mark-fisher-sophie-and-the-music-of-the-future/
Many critics say SOPHIE or hyperpop as a good countercase on Hauntology.

>> No.21491233

>>21491227
hyperpoop is just happy hardcore with auto tune

>> No.21492732

>>21488880
I don't really have a good reading list. It is my own critique that I have worked on in detail but haven't had time to get ready to publish.

Mostly, I read The End of History and The Last Man, both the book and the article, at the same time I as very slowly reading the Phenomenology in concert with Harris's Hegel's Ladder and BernsteinTapes.com's yearlong graduate seminar on the Phenomenology.

Fukuyama's later self critique follows a similar line, but without the recognition of the fundamental flaw in his understanding of the dialectical. The Logic and Blunden's introduction was helpful too. But that's a super dense reading list that is about a whole ton of other stuff. I would just start with the original End of History article.

Fukuyama's two volume opus on state development is fantastic, not just for his own theories, but because it very abley sums up 2000 years of theorizing about what makes some states strong and prosperous. It's a great work but you come away from the second volume wondering if there is something to political decay he is missing. It's a very political science take, not thinking so much in terms of a grand pattern.

But can we see a pattern in Argentina's being one of the very wealthiest countries in the world in the late-1800s, on par with the US, and then its considerable decay? I'd argue the faliure of their liberal system to sublated nationalism and socialism shows the answer. In that case those forces triumphed over liberalism, rather than merging with it and resolving the tension.

Clashes are either resolved in a synthesis or simply continue on. Jihad vs McWorld and The Clash of Civilizations both have major flaws but kernels of truth too.

BTW, I do think Fukuyama's diagnosis of the Last Man problem is spot on. Men in the West today fear becoming bovine consumers more than anything. The whole MRA, pick up artist, manosphere movement, and the chest thumping of various Boog enthusiasts is wonderfully predicted in The End of History. I think Fukuyama under appreciated the threat from the left with disatisfaction over inequality (median US real wages for the bottom 40% would absolutely tank, making people less well off in the decade following his book), but he was right that Last Man Syndrome would come to dominate the right.

In a way, this is cyclical. You can sew huge parallels between the hunger for war, the idealization of it as some great adventure, the fascination of people with a far off war (Ukraine and Syria), etc. with the influential clique that yearned for a war before 1914. It is similar pressures, the erosion of status, etc. that lead men to chase after wars in spite of the fact that every generation forced to actually fight them ends up overwhelmingly regretting them. There is something ominous in pictures of armed rallies today, in that the median age is probably 55, and obesity rates are probably 70+%. These men will not fight a conflict they start, but the old dominate politics.

>> No.21492751

>>21487332
you fell for the atheist -ism...
None of those -isms is supposed to work. All those -isms are pure ''thought experiments'' that atheist love to do in order to entertainment themselves.
It's daydreaming. Anarchism is a one of the hundred -isms made up by the bourgeois revolutionaries to saturate the political field in an attempt to make the plebeians stop thinking that kings were a thing. Atheists rewrite history this way.
With its moronic humanistically wishful-thinking non-aggression principle (NAP), Anarchism is literally the atheist fantasy of ''humanism of the bourgeois, without the legal republic of the bourgeois'' so it remains 100% controlled by bourgeois intellectuals. ie ''humanism is awesome''. And of course it can't be done in real life. It's literally a power fantasy for impotent beta cuck atheists. This is why it appeals to bugmen like tranny-lover Ted Kazincky and vaginally herd-follower Ayn Rand. Before atheists, anarchism never fucking existed and nobody ever though about this crappy religion (or ideology like atheists say, about their own religions).

>> No.21492753

>>21492732
Wars have generally been a massive catalyst for the resolution of conflicts in a system and increased inequality.

The whole of society must be mobilized and men from every level of wealth share an experience. Lower status men return with more confidence and experience leading and demand a more equitable system.

I think that may be less and less the case. Advances in autonomous military systems are exploding. We now have autonomous howitzers and mortars, autonomous spotters drones. You still absolutely need people to fight, but there is a huge substitution effect towards capital and away from labor in warfare on the horizon. The modern militaries of 2050 will be considerably manpower light, and declining young populations in wealthy nations will only accelerate this.

When waging war is more about capital than drawing on labor across classes, what effect do they have on society? I think this is a larger threat than many people give it credit for.

It's the type of capital centric warfare that gave rise to the middle ages' social system, rather than one focused on mass mobilization that led to liberalism and socialism.

>> No.21492758
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21492758

>>21488710
>devoid of predictive power
>nick land

>> No.21492778

Why did he kill himself

>> No.21492832

isnt hauntology basically just another way to say retrofuturism? i dont really see the difference

>> No.21492911

>>21492758
>reading comprehension
>on a literature board

>> No.21492914

>>21487332
INTJ

>> No.21492916

>>21492911
I perfectly understood you, ESL. I was making fun of you, troon.

>> No.21492948

>>21492916
>insults are entertainment
they made a rule against underage faggots, wish they enforced it

>> No.21492964
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21492964

>>21492948
>t.

>> No.21492992

Okay but why did he kill himself

>> No.21493005

>>21492992
Depression. Trying to relate it back to his writings is retarded

>> No.21493022

>>21493005
Why was he depressed?
He was a pretty well respected theorist and leftist.
He had much more than most people.

>> No.21493023

>>21488304
What if the enemy is solipsistic and thus can’t be defeated by intellectual conjecture

>> No.21493042

>>21493022
It’s almost as if depression doesn’t have anything to do with suffering or adversity and that even happy, successful people can experience it (if anything it’s more likely).

>> No.21493044

>>21493042
>(if anything it’s more likely).
How so?

>> No.21493048

>>21492992
Neoliberalism made him an incel. Read Fisher

>> No.21493057

>>21493048
He had a wife and 1 child when he hung himself.

>> No.21493059

>>21493044
Depression is what happens when you feel empty with no specific reason as to why you feel that way. If there was a reason for it you’d call it sadness or despair or whatever, not depression. Poor people get sad because they can’t afford to feed their family. Rich people get depressed because they feel empty in spite of their riches.

>> No.21493063

>>21493057
A wife doesn't guarantee sex and I'm not sure he was into kids

>> No.21493091

>>21492992
some kind of chemical imbalance

>> No.21493114

>>21492732
thanks for the list.

what field are you in that you get to publish work of this sort?

>> No.21493194
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21493194

>>21487302
Vaporwave and Hauntology is and always will be one of the most important theories on White culture. Vaporwave is the last White art. Mark Fisher was just pointing out what many already knew instinctively but the name he gave it sounds cool so he will always be an important note in history. The term Hauntology never would have detached itself from Communism and Derrida if not for him.

>> No.21493202

>>21488880
Making of the typographic man

>> No.21493221
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21493221

>>21492992
>>21493005
>>21492778
>>21487302
Mark fisher serves as an excellent guide for the type of thinking to avoid, because his thinking directly drove him to suicide.

When you elevate your personal problems to the status of a giant, untouchable systematic machine, you lose touch with your own agency, sense of being-in-the-world and you relegate yourself to the status of a whiner. As retarded as christniggers are, even they unconsciously recognized that whiners who believe nothing is in their control are liable to kill themselves, and you don't really want your slaves doing that

Fischer forgot that the purpose of leftism was to make slaves not feel guilty about being a leader of other slaves remember, to a slave, a leader is evil . At the same time, through wisdom and weakness, he stayed out of any sort of leadership directly. As a result, he was permanently stuck in an intellectual limbo, where his beliefs insisted that he rise and lead his fellow men up against his "evil masters", but he felt too weak to do anything about it. Sit in that kind of limbo for too long, and you're probably going to kill yourself.

In other words, he deserved it

>> No.21493393

>>21487302
Finally someone gets it. Fuck Fisher and fuck his fanboys

>> No.21493402

>>21487384
Feuerbach was an idiot too. I'd wager half the blame laid on Hegel can be placed on him instead

>> No.21493414

>>21487979
Yeah in fact it hasn't stopped being developed either

>> No.21493418

>>21493059
Only normalfags have empathy. Us superior autistics have no use for it

>> No.21493462

>>21493221
>>21493393
>>21489576
>>21487345
>>21487361
>>21487302

Who is the modern antithesis to Mark Fisher? Someone less depressed?

>> No.21493507
File: 2.25 MB, 2448x3264, IMG_20221218_052232766.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21493507

>>21493462
Me

http://adolfstalin.substack.com

>> No.21493563

>>21493418
Justifying your mental illness as a superpower is a cope a mother would say to her 5-year old child when they start presenting. I highly doubt you’re the highly functional, mentat-style maths whizz of autist, more likely the screaming and punching yourself in the head kind of autist.

>> No.21493567

>>21493507
>anti-landlord
Fuck off

>> No.21493593

>>21493507
nigger

>> No.21493597

>>21493563
>highly doubt you’re the highly functional, mentat-style maths whizz of autist
I am

>> No.21493661

>>21493563
>>21493567
>>21493593
I'm so happy I make you faggots angry. It gives me an erection. 2 inches. Owned

>> No.21493692
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21493692

>>21493462
Byung-Chul Han

>> No.21493998

>>21493692
>I wasn’t only pretending to be retarded, I’m actually retarded because it’s the only way to escape the pre-decisional matrix of capitalism
It’s a nice thought. but retarded and not a real solution

>> No.21494009

>>21493998
>I wasn’t only pretending to be retarded, I’m actually retarded because it’s the only way to escape
fucking kek it's true isn't it?
"ignorance is bliss", no, ignorance is the only way to survive

>> No.21495194

Bump

>> No.21495619

>>21492732
>haven't had time to get ready to publish.
Is it a book or an academic article?

>> No.21495716

>>21487302
dead end

>>21487413
>There are compelling critiques of his position from Negarestani and Mackay.
Shadow boxing won't save them from Outside.

>> No.21496947

>>21487345
>>21488582
haters mad because they are unable to gaze into the abyssal, torturous machine we have created - for future generations to suffer at the whims of - and surrender to the futility of overcoming
i don't think he was ultimately correct but he certainly was sincere in his beliefs, and for that it is likely he won't be forgotten anytime soon.

>> No.21496955

Well lets see music has been wittled down to pop and pop rap.
movies are nothing but remakes, reboots, and cape shit.

If anything he has been proven right over and over again

>> No.21496964

>>21487302
Thank God he died, covid would have made him even more neurotic.

>> No.21496967

>>21496947
No but that's precisely the thing. His conclusions were correct but he was the living proof that following these conclusions to their inevitable consequences will invariably lead to despair and suicide. Gazing into the abyss, being aware of the horrific construct we have unleashed, and of the machinic future that awaits is enough given that no one can change anything at this point for it's too late. He stared into the abyss too long and it consumed him. It is a bad fate to encounter

>> No.21496977

the guys itt who hate him think he killed himself because of culture, when really he probably killed himself based on the stuff he wrote in escape from the vampires castle

>> No.21496985

>>21496977
I always assumed this was it. He felt like his 'side' had been completely co-opted or sublated into what it was meant to stand against.

>> No.21496997

>>21496977
No, he only killed himself because he was a mentally weak loser.

>> No.21497000

>>21496967
yeah, but that's all the more reason to see him as a sort of martyr. he is the archetypal neurotic scholar who desperately tried to find some form of sense in the madness. i hope someone writes a cohesive bio about him because i think many up and coming 'intellectuals' could learn a thing or two form his demise..

>> No.21497002

>>21496977
He killed himself because twitter leftists were cancelling everyone? That's even more pitiable.

>> No.21497014

>>21488304
>If you have to kill your intellectual adversary then you’re basically just proving them right, insofar as you’re so incapable of overcoming their arguments that the only alternative is violence
And when your intellectual adversary is willing to use violence against you?

>> No.21497017

>>21488304
>If you have to kill your intellectual adversary then you’re basically just proving them righ
No. Because the winner writes history.

>> No.21497027
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21497027

>>21496947
>gaze into the abyssal, torturous machine we have created - for future generations to suffer at the whims of - and surrender to the futility of overcoming

>> No.21497044

>>21497027
LMAO this. Like legitimately WHO gives a shit, just go outside and touch grass lol

>> No.21497055

>>21497017
Tell that to Jesus. Martyrdom is a very real consequence of political violence- it emboldens those who were intended to be silenced by it. The reason why Christianity endured is precisely because their most sacred figure was killed. Do you think if Jesus wasn’t crucified the religion would be anywhere near as significant?

>>21497014
That’s a whataboutism. If both sides are using violence against each other it’s no longer an ideological conflict but a real one.

>> No.21497062

>>21497027
>>21497044
personally i find your response much more uninspired than Le Abyss Gazing

>> No.21497095

>>21497062
it was a perfectly appropriate response to geriatric kvetching about le technocapital hellworld

>> No.21497145

>>21497095
i guess you're still afraid of having Bad Thoughts? it's okay, you won't always be a scared little hedonistic 15 year old

>> No.21497172

>>21497062
>>21497145
Just quit being a fucking edgelord and do something with your life man

>> No.21497746

>>21487678
Ghosts of My Life

>> No.21498017

>>21496985
did he even participated in politics in any meaningful way? note writting shit from isolation doesn't count as political action

>> No.21498030

>>21498017
he released jungle ep in 90s

>> No.21498469

>>21493692
>like the sound of this guys thoughts on psychopolitics
>look at ebooks on Amazon
>80 page pamphlets for ten bucks

>> No.21498841

>>21492758
oh god, someone gave him the go ahead for estrogen

>> No.21499254
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21499254

Few things are quite as pathetic as Mark Fisher defending Russell Brand as a leftist who makes the proletariat "sexy" and "cool" again. It was his last intellectual contribution before killing himself out of despair that his shitty ideology is useless

>> No.21499362
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21499362

>>21498469
>paying for books

>> No.21499784

>>21493462
Bronze Age Pervert