/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21471698]

Baudelaire:
>I found in those of his works which are translated, particularly in Tannhäuser, Lohengrin and the Flying Dutchman, an excellent method of construction, a spirit of order and division which recalls the architecture of ancient tragedies.

Whitman:
>I am again consumed with regret for knowing I have never had a chance to hear the wonderful operas. I say 'wonderful' because I feel that they are constructed on my lines—attach themselves to the same theories of art that have been responsible for Leaves of Grass.

Villiers de l'Isle-Adam:
>He is the very man of whom we have dreamed; he is a genius such as appears upon the earth once every thousand years.

Nietzsche:
>Even now I am still in search of a work which exercises such a dangerous fascination, such a spine-tingling and blissful infinity as Tristan – I have sought in vain, in every art. Everything strange and alien about Leonardo da Vinci is demystified with the first tones of Tristan.

Mallarme:
>Oh strange defiance hurled at poets by him who has usurped their duty with the most open and splendid audacity: Richard Wagner!

Weininger:
>the greatest man since Christ’s time

D'Annunzio:
>In articulating our need for metaphysics, [Wagner] has revealed to us a hidden part of our interior life.

Yeats:
>Wagner's dramas are becoming to Germany what the Greek Tragedies were to Greece.

Strauss:
>Tristan does not, as you believe, represent the "dazzling resurrection" of romanticism, but the end of all romanticism, as it brings into focus the longing of the entire 19th century, longing which is finally released in the Tag- und Nachtsgeprach and in Isolde's Liebestod. . . Tristan is the ultimate conclusion of Schiller and Goethe and the highest fulfilment of a development of the theatre stretching over 2,000 years.

Hauptmann
>[The Ring is] perhaps the most mystifying work of art of the last few thousand years

Joyce:
>There are indeed hardly more than a dozen original themes in world LITERATURE ... Tristan und Isolde is an example of an original theme.

Auden:
>perhaps the greatest genius that ever lived

Lévi-Strauss:
>the undeniable father of the structural analysis of myth

Junger:
>Thoughts about the mighty mind of the dramatist who breathes artificial breath into past ages and dead cultures so that they move like corpses we can quote. A sorcerer of the highest order who conjures with real blood at the gates of the underworld.

Scruton:
>Modern high culture is as much a set of footnotes to Wagner as Western philosophy is, in Whitehead’s judgement, footnotes to Plato.

[Anonymous No.21471712]

>>21471698
Where do I start with Wagner?

[Anonymous No.21471740]

too bad his bombastic music fucking sucks lmao

[Anonymous No.21471783]

>>21471740
Almost every major composer since Wagner's time would disagree with you.

[Anonymous No.21471789]

The Baudelaire quote blows me away that writers could think like that

[Anonymous No.21471928]

>>21471698
>Nietzsche:
>>Even now I am still in search of a work which exercises such a dangerous fascination, such a spine-tingling and blissful infinity as Tristan – I have sought in vain, in every art. Everything strange and alien about Leonardo da Vinci is demystified with the first tones of Tristan.
That genius comes from... Wagner fought against the grain. There is no mastery there but the craftiness and suffering of a slave.

Parsifal shows he never found what he was looking for. Nietzsche knew.

[Anonymous No.21471940]

>>21471712
The Ring Cycle.

[Anonymous No.21471948]

>>21471783
well, fuck them, too.

[Anonymous No.21472166]

>>21471948
>dislikes classical music
>wants to criticise it

[Anonymous No.21472181]

>>21471698
I take the Schopenhauerian approach to Wagner. I like him as a poet but as a musician I prefer composers like Mozart and Rossini. I admire the dedication Wagnerites have for him though.

[Anonymous No.21472216]

>>21471698
Where do I start with Wagner?

[Anonymous No.21472228]

>>21471940
What translation?

[Anonymous No.21472247]

>>21472228
The Operas with subtitles on.

[Anonymous No.21472276]

>>21472228
And don't touch Goodalls.
>>21472247
Don't need to do this since most staging dismiss Wagner's vision.
You can memorize the libretto on your own, or read it till you figure out what is sung. Furtwangler, whilst a "one trick pony" , is said to be the best Wagnerian conductor, or of the ring, at least.

[Anonymous No.21472321]

>>21471928
Nietzsche's famous quotes on Parsifal were all written when he had only read the libretto of the opera and hadn't heard the music. He heard the overture to Parsifal sometime later and wrote to a friend something along the lines of "compared to this, all other music sounds like a mistake."

He had a personal falling out with Wagner and Parsifal provided a handy excuse. In fact, the shocking thing is that Nietzsche, if he were consistent, should've chosen to break with Wagner at the time of Tristan, not Parsifal. Tristan being Wagner's first completely serious Schopenhauerian opera

[Anonymous No.21472325]

>>21472181
>I take the Schopenhauerian approach to Wagner. I like him as a poet
Schopenhauer hated Wagner's poetry. Wagner sent him a copy of the libretto of Die Walküre and Schopenhauer never replied. He made annotations in the margins though, with disparaging comments like "amateurish poetry", "now the clouds play the main role" during the Walkürenritt, etc.

[Anonymous No.21472452]

>>21472325
Not entirely true, he was critical, especially of the stabreim which was grating to his classical tastes, but he did praise the drama at parts. Such as when Wotan in Siegfried (Wagner sent him the full poem of the Ring, not just Walkure), resigned, tells Alberich that 'all things are in their way, you cannot change anything', he wrote in the margin 'how true!'. And Schopenhauer communicated, on various occasions through messengers, that he admired Wagner's mythological story. The website you probably read about this on is extremely biased.

[Anonymous No.21473577]

>>21472321
>Parsifal
Is awful.

[Anonymous No.21473902]

>>21471698
Yes, yes, we know a lot of authors liked Wagner, but what does this have to do with /lit/, and what are you trying to prove here? Are you insecure?

[Anonymous No.21474185]

>>21471712
>>21472216
Tristan und Isolde. But first read the script: http://www.wagnermania.com/dramas/tristan/espanol.asp

[Anonymous No.21474495]

>>21471928
>There is no mastery there but the craftiness and suffering of a slave.
Don't talk about things you know nothing about. As Carl Dahlhaus stated, Wagner's formal mastery in Tristan is undeniable. The criticism of less high minded motives being behind Wagner's dramas is conflated with the idea of less high minded forms being used. But in counterpoint, orchestration, motivic development, etc. he is no less masterful than Beethoven.

[Anonymous No.21475129]

>>21471789
why?

[Anonymous No.21475420]

>>21474495
Craftiness is not mastery. He suffered a lot and this emotion comes through in the music but where is the catharsis? Tristan is pure intoxication. Wagner glorifies the lowliest aspects of man and masks it with a mythical story and pornographic music.

He's glorifying vanity.

[Anonymous No.21475880]

>>21475420
You seem to have trouble understanding the concepts of tragedy and chromaticism. Are Sophocles and Mozart glorifying vanity when they don't regularly engage in a catharsis?

[Anonymous No.21475883]

>>21475420
>Wagner glorifies the lowliest aspects of man and masks it with a mythical story and pornographic music.
True

[Anonymous No.21476574]

>>21475420
>Wagner glorifies the lowliest aspects of man and masks it with a mythical story and pornographic music.
You're fucking retarded

[Anonymous No.21476632]

>>21475420
His music can at times depict sexuality, but to call Wagner's music pornographic is to misunderstand what pornography is. Wagner's music does not call people to partake in sexual behavior in the way jazz music does with its rhythms, and while something like Tristan may depict sexuality and sexual yearning, it goes beyond it, to something far greater.

[Anonymous No.21477277]

>>21476632
It's the death urge. To fuck until you don't give a fuck, as if that were love.

[Anonymous No.21477306]

>>21472228
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRIfcmt0AV0

[Anonymous No.21477827]

Tristan is the perfect dramatic adaptation of Gottfried's poem. It is entirely in the spirit of that work.

>I, too, felt driven to this "Whence and Wherefore?" and for long it banned me from the magic of my art. But my time of penance taught me to overcome the question. All doubt at last was taken from me when I gave myself up to the Tristan. Here, in perfect trustfulness, I plunged into the inner depths of soul-events, and from the inmost centre of the world I fearlessly built up its outer form. A glance at the volumen of this poem will show you at once that the exhaustive detail-work which a historical poet is obliged to devote to clearing up the outward bearings of his plot, to the detriment of a lucid exposition of its inner motives, I now trusted myself to apply to these latter alone. Life and death, the whole import and existence of the outer world, here hang on nothing but the inner movements of the soul. The whole affecting Action comes about for reason only that the inmost soul demands it, and steps to light with the very shape foretokened in the inner shrine.
- Wagner

[Anonymous No.21478423]

>>21473577
It's simultaneously the greatest drama and music ever written.

[Anonymous No.21478522]

>>21478423
At least Tristan has stones. Parsifal is completely lost and simply the tired regret of the old and weary Wagner.

Siegfried has to give you the inspiration and courage to break through my man. If you're not 80 years old.

[Anonymous No.21478601]

>Wagner was incredible. He'd point to a tree 59 yards away and say I'm going to hit that tree. And he'd go ahead and do it. We were all in awe of him, even Cristiano

[Anonymous No.21478698]

>>21478522
Do you have a single shred of reasoning to back up anything you're saying?

Siegfried is my favourite Wagner drama though. The entire third act is perfection.

[Anonymous No.21478954]

>>21478698
After rebelling his whole life Wagner gives up in Parsifal. He's Amfortas.

That last work is the proof that he never made it out. He hated Jews but couldn't make the connection.

[Anonymous No.21478995]

>>21471928
Shut up. NEET-CHUD was just seething that he wasn't Wagner.

[Anonymous No.21479056]

>>21478995
Nietzsche's impact is far greater than Wagner's.

[Anonymous No.21479064]

>>21479056
For your sake, I hope you're joking.

[Anonymous No.21479069]

>>21479056
r/Nietzsche may be more your speed.

[Anonymous No.21479102]

>Nietzsche’s criticisms of Wagner are read and discussed. There is no reason why such readers should be music-lovers, though. They are therefore not normally in a position to take an independently critical view of Nietzsche’s criticism. Even more to the point, they are often lacking in any serious understanding of Wagner’s intellectual capacity and influence and they mistake him for a lesser figure than Nietzsche. They frequently accept and absorb Nietzsche’s disparagements of Wagner at their face value, and then voice these as their own. This happens a good deal, for example, in the philosophy departments of universities.

[Anonymous No.21479234]

>>21479064
>>21479069
>>21479102
I compose both music and poetry, I have a great appreciation for it, but Nietzsche's impact is far greater than Wagner's.

[Anonymous No.21479241]

>>21476574
seethe more

[Anonymous No.21479246]

Nietzsche was correct when he predicted that Germany had no future and neither did classical music. He recognized that music was the last thing that came from a era and signified its end. And he was right - classical music is dead.

[Anonymous No.21479467]

>>21479246
>shitty 19th century firetruck music is dead
Ftfy

[Anonymous No.21479490]

>Um. Really my dude? Don't you know Nietzsche had a falling out with Wagner?

[Anonymous No.21480146]

>>21479234
Repeating your opinion doesn't make it right.

[Anonymous No.21480153]

>>21471698
Thank you wagnerposter. I have listened a couple of his operas but never read him until you started posting excerpts. The guy was a successful Nietzsche. An uberman that found a solution to his psychosis

[Anonymous No.21480327]

>>21472181
>preferring Rossini to Wagner

way to out yourself as a complete fucking retard

[Anonymous No.21480581]

>>21480327
Yes, Schopenhauer was a pseud in his musical tastes.

[Anonymous No.21480625]

>>21471698
The Baudelaire quote blows me away that writers could think like that

[Anonymous No.21480801]

>>21480327
>Filtered by Rossini
Sign of a true imbecile. Piss off

[Anonymous No.21481575]

>>21480327
>t. someone who know absolutely nothing about opera

[Anonymous No.21481851]

>>21480146
Rosenkavalier destroys Tristan both musically and in its message. Strauss understood Nietzsche much better.

[Anonymous No.21482331]

no

[Anonymous No.21482478]

>>21480153
>>21482331
Wagner suffered extremely and was a narcissist that needed every conversation to be about him. His wife Cosima grew up without her father and was abused as a child. Only she could handle him.

[Anonymous No.21483161]

>>21482478
>Wagner suffered extremely
How so? Because he was in debt and had some difficulties until he established his name?
>was a narcissist
Buzzword
>that needed every conversation to be about him
Source?

[Anonymous No.21483274]

>>21483161
>Source?
I don't remember; it was a book about his letters. Read them.

>How so? Because he was in debt and had some difficulties until he established his name?
Because he spent om his money on useless things, had to work as an assistant for years, was broke all his life, hated Jews with a passion but didn't really know why, had an ugly wife, had a gay son, was a midget, was a pessimist, believed in Schopenhauer, was deep down a Christian slave and couldn't free himself. His music is a giant cope for his suffering - that's why there's no catharsis. As Nietzsche said, it extracts the last bit of joy.

[Anonymous No.21483299]

>>21471740
You're not white.

[Anonymous No.21483304]

>>21476632
Based and Adorno-pilled.

[Anonymous No.21483323]

>>21476632
>>21483304
>something far greater
Psychopathy?

[Anonymous No.21483346]

>>21483299
Whiteness has nothing to do with it, larper.

[Anonymous No.21483349]

>>21471740
You have no ear for music.

[Anonymous No.21483366]

>>21471698
I already like Wagner, but when I hear this much fawning praise for anything I become skeptical - even of my own opinions.

I agree with Yeats on him. Nietzsche's comment represents everything I hate about my own writing, lol. Whitman, unsurprisingly, is pretentious. The man of an excessively French name is posturing. Levi-Strauss, as usual, provokes thought. Scruton's comment interests me. I can't claim to know enough to argue for or against it, but I wish some more educated anon than I would, as I'm curious of its veracity.

[Anonymous No.21483469]

>>21471712
I wouldn't start with the Ring or Tristan or Parsifal, though those are his greatest accomplishments. Listen to the overtures first, Tanhausser, Flying Dutchman, Rienzi, Meistersinger. Those are more compact. In opera the intense musical moments are spaced out so you have to be patient if you listen to it straight through without knowing the meaning of the words. Wagner would be way more widely listened to if he wrote symphonies instead of operas. He's the greatest musician ever

[Anonymous No.21483509]

>>21483469
Lohengrin is good throughout.

[Anonymous No.21483558]

furtwängler contra nietzsche, not gonna repost everything:
>>/lit/image/RSZkWBNOmXucFajKcSFCxg

[Anonymous No.21483561]

>>21479234
>I compose both music and poetry

Your status as a creative person has no relevance to these judgements.

[Anonymous No.21483606]

wasn't as good as brahms

[Anonymous No.21483610]

>>21479102
i may have a completely different personality, set of political views, and taste in art as bryan magee, but god i love the man

[Anonymous No.21483662]

>>21471698
Those guys would have been asleep after the first serving of the inevitable 25-minutes leitmotiv.

Wagner is one of the greatest, but out of touch with reality, boring and pompous. I very much prefer Beethoven, Verdi, Puccini.

[Anonymous No.21483809]

>>21483662
The climax of the Walkure shows something though, yes he was all those things, but he was brave like Siegfried. I think he was Siegfried. A midget version of the himbo.

[Anonymous No.21483972]

For me? It's the one hour gradual ascend of the EI-A-EI-A Meistersinger second act leitmotiv in Abendroth's 1943 live recording. I don't understand German nor I have any idea about the plot

[Anonymous No.21484009]

>>21483972
Although one has to consider that they didn't slander life back then as heavily as it's done now. That's why such art was possible.

[Anonymous No.21484050]

>>21484009
>>21483972
Forgot to mention the A-LA A-LA
HEE, A-HA A-HA, TRALA-LAI part

[Anonymous No.21484051]

>>21483972
Wow Abendroth is really good. That Nazi recording is pretty special so far. Thanks for the comment.

[Anonymous No.21484081]

>>21484050
how about händel's haa-le-luja

[Anonymous No.21484098]

>>21483299
It's the opposite, Wagner and Liszt were the first musical suversives who went against the purpose of music (i.e. elevating the mind by offering classical beauty in form for contemplation) in order to make cheap, emotional schlock with mass appeal, a genuine spectacle and the model of all following musical degenerations. This is also why they had hordes upon hordes of fangirls - their music tickles the emotions tremendously. Classical music is masculine, formal, assertive and requires the listener to pay active attention and evaluate. Romantic garbage like Wagner ushers in a psychic, rapturous trance that transforms the listener into a spiritual woman. This is why Nietzsche harshly critiqued Wagner and the Wagnerites, describes hundreds of young German and Bavarian men in a state of emotional hysteria, crying and wailing loudly and embracing each other in public at the sound of the music. It's a very showy music with the qualities of a prostitute, totally unsuitable for Aryans.

[Anonymous No.21484161]

>>21484098
>why yes, madrigals are the peak musical form
>I feel masculine when I reflect on their monotony

[Anonymous No.21484170]

>>21484098
I might just make this the next copypasta

[Anonymous No.21484178]

>>21484161
Strawman. Also if you need things to be colourful and shiny and loud in order to reflect on and contemplate them then I want you to know that you are the pest that is killing music (and everything else). Classical music avoids excessive emotionalism precisely in order to gatekeep people who can only contemplate garish things. Wagner was the first major blow against it, since he opened the doors to music for all things garish.

[Anonymous No.21484179]

>>21479246

Its amazing how that man predicted so many things culturaly. He even predicted WW1. Really we should pay attention to sensitive people like him who are not trend followers because they see the world in its totality in a far more prescient way.

[Anonymous No.21484187]

>>21484170
Be my guest. I only regret not drawing a comparison with the screaming fangirls of the Beatles and of K-pop groups. That would have really brought the analogy together.

[Anonymous No.21484188]

>>21484098
You have to have the masculinity to tame it. The music is a challenge.

[Anonymous No.21484190]

>>21484098
Wagnersisters....
How do we reply here? That critique is solid

[Anonymous No.21484197]

>>21484188
Maybe that would be a good argument if you listen to it once just to see what it's about. A masculine personality will not be drawn to feminine things (like emotional rapture), so generally there would be little of interest in Wagner for a masculine audience. This wouldn't be a problem if the appreciation of music was restricted to men of good character, but men of less sound character and women can easily succumb to the corrosive effects of such music, and according to Plato's Laws, the insolent anarchic spirit of Athens first began with musical corruptions of precisely this sort.

[Anonymous No.21484205]

>>21484170
>>21484187
>>21484190
>>21484197
Grow beyond and watch the music dance for you. I achieved this with Bach first, now Wagner is yielding. It's only if you're decadent to begin with that decedent seeps in. It's only if you we're only degenerating that you degenerate further.

Avoiding the challenge is for pussies like Plato. Be like Thucydides; rise up to his courage; the courage for true freedom.

[Anonymous No.21484209]

>>21484178
>I want only manly austere things that make me feel like a man
>Excess emotion must be associated with women, suppressed and made fun of because it's dangerous and I can't understand it
Is this better

[Anonymous No.21484229]

>>21484098

Nietzsche didn't criticize the music itself as being in the wrong direction. He criticized the message underlying it as superficial. Nietzsche was pretty much on eof the first modernists he had no time for Wagner's emotional bullshit or christian metaphors. Nietzsche would have headbanged to psychdelic 60's and 70's rock music had he been alive in that era. Its not the animating principle that he is opposed to, its the betrayal of Wagner with sneaking a conservative message and taking the tranformative experience back. Beethoven doesn't have this problem because he returns you to a safe haven at the end with his harmony after the bombastic interlude. In this sense Nietzsche preffers someone like Händel rather than whatever Wagner ended up as in trying to please everyone.

[Anonymous No.21484237]

>>21484205
I am glad you include those last two lines so that I know you have no idea what you're talking about.
>>21484209
No, I am afraid that's still a strawman. Here's some facts for you:
>clear judgement is free of emotion, because emotion prejudices judgement and makes it partial
>clear judgement is active, because it requires the person judging to elevate himself above the situation and make direct observations and choices on his own
>emotion clouds judgements and uses sub-mental means in order to force a judgement and a choice, engendering a state of passivity in the judge, who should be active.
>It is therefore not difficult to see why emotion is feminine and why clarity is masculine; what is truly masculine cannot help but feel suspicion and contempt for emotion, because it is contrary to its nature. The principle all things in moderation applies here, because it is still valuable to experience a bit of something in order to be able to judge it, but *emotionalism* is totally corrosive to masculinity because it sweeps right judgement entirely off its feet with a flood of sub-mental garbage with no ultimate meaning

[Anonymous No.21484240]

>>21484229
Didn't he like Bizet too? Friedrich sure was groovy and enjoyed a good tune

[Anonymous No.21484246]

>>21484190
>But a great movement of the nineteenth century that pervades the nations of Europe cannot be pedantically trivialized by treating the rest of the world either as a candidat à la civilisation française or as an aspirant to German culture, and by ascribing the predicates German or Germanic to romanticism in addition to those of fanciful and passionate. It is worst of all when such predicates are intended to serve a pedagogical purpose. On the one hand, romanticism appears as a new life and true poetry, as the vigorous and the robust in opposition to the torpor of age. On the other hand, it appears as a wild outbreak of morbid sensibility and a barbaric incapacity for form. For those who take the first view, romanticism is youth and health. Those who take the second view quote Goethe's maxim according to which the classical is the wholesome and the romantic is the diseased. There is a romanticism of energy and a romanticism of decadence, romanticism as the immediacy and actuality of life and romanticism as flight into the past and tradition. Knowledge of what is essential to the romantic cannot proceed from positive or negative hygienic-moralistic or polemical-political assessments of this sort. It may lead to these assessments as a practical application. As long as no clear knowledge is established, however, it remains basically arbitrary how the predicates are combined and allotted here and what is singled out from this extremely complex movement as the truly "romantic" in order to praise or damn it. Under these circumstances, the easiest thing to do would still be to follow Stendhal and simply say that the romantic is what is interesting and the classical is what is boring, or naturally the other way around. That is because this tiresome game of praise and blame, enthusiasm and polemics, revolves around a narrow stick with two ends; it can be grasped from either side.
t. carl schmitt

[Anonymous No.21484247]

>>21484229
This is not the impression I got from Nietzsche Contra-Wagner and another text on the topic the title of which unfortunately eludes me.

[Anonymous No.21484250]

>>21484187
>>21484197
You really are a tremendous faggot.
>IS THAT EMOTION?! IN MY MUSIC?! I'M GOING INSANE!!!!! SAVE ME NIETZSCHE!!!!

[Anonymous No.21484276]

>>21484237
Maybe that's similar to 19 century bourgeois men that thought they were above-the-game impartial masters and labeled anyone that challenged their order a hysterical woman?

[Anonymous No.21484278]

>>21484246
How does this address the comment? By reducing the issue to the platitude that there's good and bad in all things? Because if so, I would certainly object. This obsession with "youth and health" in fact betrays a tremendous senility. It's the lack of youth and health that causes romantic fancies and the wild explosion of the imagination. Romantics sing praise to all things that are going away - the rural, the lush, the cheerfully innocent, and in Germany especially the tragic beauty of things, etc etc because they are fleeing from the modern project, from the world that was coming into being. They did not wish to join it, but they did not have the strength to fight it or even stand their own ground, so they flee into the great distance of imagined Elysian Fields of romantic landscapes and narratives. It's a glorified maladaptive coping mechanism and nothing more. I am not even remotely obligated to accept the claim that there is a shred of "youth and health" about romanticism.

[Anonymous No.21484282]

>>21484247

Nietzsche said in Contra-Wagner that the music in Parzifal was as good as ever. This is the post break Wagner who becomes a Christian. Granted there is personal anumus beatween the two men, but what he says there I think is that Wagner basically became a sentimental idiot. It was Nietzsche that introduced Wagner to the Greek tragedy aspect of the opera, so there is an extra element of betrayal in turning Wagner's music to religious passion plays. Of course today there are myrriad interpretations of the opera itself that veer of in another direction, but for Nietzsche at that time this was very much a personal insult.

[Anonymous No.21484297]

>>21484278
> It's the lack of youth and health that causes romantic fancies and the wild explosion of the imagination.
bruh

[Anonymous No.21484298]

>>21484250
It's easy to tell you've been btfo by your abandonment of argument and descent into simple name calling. Your concession is accepted - it was inevitable, after all, as an admirer of Wagner could not possibly have strong logical faculties.
>>21484276
Just because a 19th century bourgeois man does something does not mean that it is wrong, otherwise you would be refuted by your own standard because hey, guess who went to all of Wagner's concerts? That's right, bourgeois men.
Once again, I am forced to note your inability to address my argument in any way whatever.

[Anonymous No.21484301]

>>21484237
Or be a pussy forever. I love that I can help myself by posting and not have to fear helping any competitors. There are clearly none.

[Anonymous No.21484306]

>>21484282
>Nietzsche said in Contra-Wagner that the music in Parzifal was as good as ever.
That's a different claim that saying it isn't heading in the wrong direction, even excluding the idea of narrative. If I recall correctly, Nietzsche was quite explicit about Wagner's lack of qualities as a musician, and instead termed him a "great liar" who can work wonders with the individual moment but could never hope to put together a cohesive piece of enduring beauty. Essentially, the beauty of Wagner music is the beauty of the emotion of the moment, not of the form.
>>21484297
>no argument
Kneel.

[Anonymous No.21484312]

>>21484306
You're such a fucking faggot. You're clearly bottling up your urge to get fucked in the ass. Or why would you be such a coward?

[Anonymous No.21484313]

>>21484298
>Just because a 19th century bourgeois man does something does not mean that it is wrong
No but at least a few understood that they aren't some out of the game superior logical beings or whatever autistic fantasy you foster

[Anonymous No.21484316]

>>21484313
He's a coward.

[Anonymous No.21484351]

>>21484312
KNEEL.
>>21484313
>still no argument
You kneel too.

[Anonymous No.21484357]

why does this man cast such a large shadow over everyone with the work he did? his influences and tinges and bottled up reactions are found in the most peculiar places. my rotund english teacher even tried to do some quaint satire of him that couldn't help but flatter and reinforce but ultimately misunderstand. being logical is just a failure to be ethical. the failure to be just and find justice is the failure to worship the true God, Christus. God, the creator of all, that mild and merciful Lord. and the lute shall always be more powerful than any weapons of war

[Anonymous No.21484360]

>>21484357
whoops meant to make this a thread

[Anonymous No.21484374]

>>21484351
What argument? This is your argument lmao
>ME = man, moderate, logical, impartial, active, good
>YOU = woman, excessive, illogical, partial, passive, bad

[Anonymous No.21484391]

>>21484351
I accept your kneeling. If a coward Platonist is your limit then that's that. Keep it in check though, or you'll corrupt the youth.

[Anonymous No.21484392]

>>21484374
My apologies, it seems you are an actual woman. I suppose it would be too harsh to argue this with you.

[Anonymous No.21484395]

all pseuds

[Anonymous No.21484400]

>>21484374
He's a hopeless case.

[Anonymous No.21484406]

>>21484392
Ironically only a woman can save you.

[Anonymous No.21484422]

>>21484406
No thanks, femanon. I'm good. You stick to your Wagner stuff, okay?

[Anonymous No.21484434]

>>21484392
If you actually followed what Weininger was saying instead of reading the Wikipedia article you’d realize he’d think your less than a women because at least the women is a projection of man. In Weininger’s system, there’s man, which is the hardest and most rewarding thing to be, then women, who is sort of like his terrestrial watch dog but she could at least devote herself to the good or her family. Then there’s niggers and faggots. Criminals and neurasthenics, animals and plants, chad and virgin. You’re just the nigger uncle at the cook out going why you reading them books nigga don’t you know you’ll always be a nigger, you ain’t better then us nigga ect ect. You’re the dog that has to be bark to try to refute. You have a ‘realist’ philosophy IE everyone should be a nigger doubting dog like me. You’ll have heart attack and die from the perceived imagination of a snake bite. The faggots take all the guilt in on themselves and die of AIDS. Merry Christmas

[Anonymous No.21484462]

>>21484434
Stop projecting. You are the one who would give up books for sportsball (Wagner). I am not the guy who brought up Weininger either so I have no idea why you're bringing him up.

[Anonymous No.21484533]

>>21484462
Your whole thing about masculinity and formal blah blah blah is just the mainstream corruption of his very large shadow and you don’t even realize it kek. Read the source, Weininger is the only authority on masculinity, and it’s not the logic Wikipedia nonsense about active passive blah blah blah. Epic gender war bro here’s an updoot. This shit is real. Weininger, VVagner, and Christus are the only people in the entire history of the world not to be completely retarded like this, like everyone.

[Anonymous No.21484540]

>>21484392
Do you think 19th century alienists were right to state there are hidden homosexual longings behind proclamations of masculinity?

[Anonymous No.21484592]

>>21484533
Bro your post is totally incoherent it has barely anything to do with Weininger or my argument (which by the way you still haven't engaged with even remotely). Take your meds btw.
>>21484540
No, I think proclamations of masculinity are actually effeminate rather than homosexual, but if you conflate the two then I suppose it could be interpreted as a sensible point, yes. Thankfully I have made no proclamations of masculinity but have instead made proclamations about masculinity. Perhaps you can explain why you think your remark is relevant to the conversation?

[Anonymous No.21484639]

>>21484592
You don’t have an argument. Your a cuck sitting on his cuck couch drinking his whisky and smoking his cigar trying to live the good masculine life with the masculine character of Nietzsche (retard). That’s your argument. You’re a cartoon character playing with shadows because you haven’t read one sentence of Weininger’s yet your aping his wikipedia page and championing Nietzsche who Weininger made look like a weeb retard. Nietzsche called for the enslavement of women in the ‘oriental school’ because he was so weak he thought they were an alien force that had to be controlled instead of a projection of the actual men in his society. That’s your hero of realism, all because Wagner was a bad bad Christian actually in tune with the celestial star dwellers that you foolishly deny.

[Anonymous No.21484696]

>>21484639
Two things to take away from your post:
1) You can't read, you are physically unable to read.
2) You are mentally deranged and have conversations with your split personalities that you project onto other posters. Ergo, take your meds.

[Anonymous No.21484763]

>>21481851
Strauss would obviously disagree. But if you want a lighter work by Wagner see Meistersinger. Nietzsche considered it the healthiest period of Wagner's life.

[Anonymous No.21484778]

>>21484639
That's some enlightening point of view. Please elaborate.

Nietzsche had his weaknesses but ultimately surpassed the men of his era. Through drugs; but whatever.

[Anonymous No.21484784]

>>21484298
You know what's not masculine? Play pretending as a psychopath on a mongolian basket weaving forum. What happened to you that you find emotion "feminine"? Did your dad beat you too hard as a child? Did your mother not give you enough attention? Well adjusted people don't have as strong of a hatred for emotion as you do. Humans have always been motivated by emotion you contrarian cretin. Yes, that includes the classical composers. Do you genuinely fucking believe that Haydn and Mozart weren't motivated by emotion? Nobody is falling for your shit. Screw you for wasting my time

[Anonymous No.21484804]

>>21484763
Strauss is extremely impressive as a person. The way he didn't give a fuck about the war is very impressive. His pathos of distance was great; he was a true noble soul. Wagner is Siegfried.

[Anonymous No.21484819]

>>21484784
Time is never wasted. Love him as you're enemy. His stupidity makes us better.

[Anonymous No.21484821]

>>21484098
>t. hasn't actually listened to Wagner's music except superficially

[Anonymous No.21484862]

>>21484098
Oh my fucking gosh, does all your knowledge about Romanticism come from a Ken Russel movie? These are all cliches. The irony is that you have failed to pay active attention to Liszt or Wagner, and have an understanding of it equivalent to when someone thinks Mozart sounds 'pretty' and that's all there is to his music. To anyone who knows what they're talking about, Wagner belongs to that Germanic tradition of formalism.

>A mature Wagner opera is organized as highly, and almost as purely musically, as a Beethoven symphony. Its organization is on totally different lines; and any analysis that attempts to apply symphonic terms to Wagner is doomed to fantastic abstruseness. But the analysis of Wagner’s music into hundreds of short themes associated with dramatic incidents and thoughts carries us no farther into his principles of composition than the compiling of a dictionary of his words. The music is no more built from these details than the drama is built from its words. Behind and above this apparatus, the music is architectural on a scale actually from ten to twenty times larger than anything contemplated in earlier music; and it is true to the architectural nature of music; its symmetries are expressed in recapitulations as vast and as exact as those of any symphonic music. Words are not thus recapitulated, nor is the singer often conscious of taking part in a recapitulation, since the musical declamation fits the words at every moment, and the voice-part itself, therefore, does not recapitulate.

[Anonymous No.21484865]

>>21484778
Weininger uses Nietzsche as the example of talent without genius. Genius is solely connected to memory, caring enough to remember everything that ever happened would be the greatest most Herculean task. The talented take memory for granted, they’re fine with any sort of little lapses in thought as long as it can be replaced terrestrially through the power that comes from talent. They worship talent, and so they worship the Ahriman, the animalistic mugging of everything taken for granted, remembering anything is just a tool for what fuels their motive for ultimate revenge, the criminals day in court, the talented demand an audience
>one needs the onlooker, the theatre, the pose. Thereby the second person arises. Thereby the criminal is homosexual.
This is what Wagner was actually rebelling against, the theater, his last prison. Nietzsche couldn’t take it

[Anonymous No.21484883]

>>21484865
Fantastic take, I agree, but Nietzsche's memory wasn't bad. And it's mot like Wagner succeeded either, he was a himbo too. Having a great memory is a feminine trait. Strauss is the great one here.

[Anonymous No.21484889]

>>21484282
>It was Nietzsche that introduced Wagner to the Greek tragedy aspect of the opera,
Almost everything in The Birth of Tragedy was already written by Wagner before it. The fact that you don't know one of the most essential features of Wagner's dramas since the late 1840s, the recreation of Greek tragedy, says everything.

Please refrain from talking about Nietzsche contra Wagner when you don't know anything about Wagner. See: >>21479102

[Anonymous No.21484913]

>>21484804
>>21484883
I really can't understand your obsession with Strauss when you hate Wagner. It's nonsensical. And it's not like you provide any arguments either, just repeat yourself.

[Anonymous No.21484917]

>>21483304
Adorno hated Wagner and misunderstood Schoenberg.

[Anonymous No.21484919]

>>21484205
This. Nietzsche said as much in Ecce Homo.

[Anonymous No.21484936]

>>21484913
I don't hate Wagner.

[Anonymous No.21484939]

>>21484784
It does not follow from what I said that, just because masculinity is foreign to and opposed to emotion, men should never feel emotion in any quantity and any context whatsoever. That is a non sequitur, it is your invention, and is even explicitly contradicted by what I said about "all things in moderation". What I object to is this extremely effeminate attitude:
>Humans have always been motivated by emotion you contrarian cretin.
This is absolutely untrue. If what you were saying is true, there would be no such things as loyalty, honour, duty, authority, or anything even remotely related to masculinity whatsoever. Any example of ethics, down to the most basic examples of a soldier going to battle or a lover remaining faithful, is predicated on the ability of human beings to resist emotion. Not even the most vapid and primitive woman will ALWAYS be governed by emotion. Even you are not always governed by emotion, or so I would hope.

[Anonymous No.21484942]

>>21484913
Each presents a different challenge.

[Anonymous No.21484952]

>>21484939
You write like a young man who has never lived.

[Anonymous No.21484959]

>>21484952
It's just called not being a retard, anon. I don't expect you to understand.

[Anonymous No.21484967]

>>21484939
>masculinity is foreign to and opposed to emotion
How the fuck did you come to this conclusion? Seriously who abused you so hard to come to this conclusion?
>men should never feel emotion in any quantity and any context whatsoever.
Anon, nobody's falling for your fake attempt at acting like a psychopath.
>If what you were saying is true, there would be no such things as loyalty, honour, duty, authority
I really need to stop replying to your bait because this is obviously fucking bullshit.
>any example of ethics, down to the most basic examples of a soldier going to battle or a lover remaining faithful, is predicated on the ability of human beings to resist emotion.
LOVE AND BRAVERY ARE EMOTIONS YOU MORONIC FUCK

[Anonymous No.21484974]

>>21484959
You repress yourself because the world overwhelms you, but you become nothing in the process. You have chosen not to be.

But Dasein! We are here to be!

Take a chance.

[Anonymous No.21484977]

1. Composers have always aimed for sublime emotion.
2. As a concept the sublime was first applied to music by Hoffmann in his description of Beethoven's symphonies. At the beginning of the Romantic period.
3. It was raised to the level of a system of aesthetics by Wagner.
4. This in no way entails a lack of formal logic or masculinity in Wagner.

[Anonymous No.21485001]

>>21484967
>How the fuck did you come to this conclusion? Seriously who abused you so hard to come to this conclusion?
There's an argument right here: >>21484237
You can try engaging with it! No one's done it so far!
>Anon, nobody's falling for your fake attempt at acting like a psychopath.
You quoted me out of context in order to convey the polar opposite meaning. I see that you are mentally unstable.
>LOVE AND BRAVERY ARE EMOTIONS YOU MORONIC FUCK
As are lust and fear. So what, would you be incapable of remaining faithful in love or in battle if you're not constantly feeling love and bravery? A sorry creature, you.
>>21484974
>Heidegger reader
>lacks short term memory and cannot comprehend basic logic
Checks out.

[Anonymous No.21485013]

>>21485001
I had some autistic tendencies too, but I overcame them through sheer courage. Autism comes from trauma, what you think is you is actually not.

[Anonymous No.21485020]

>>21485013
Stop crying, it's embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.21485029]

>>21485020
Who said I'm crying? I'm giving back to /lit/ as /lit/ has given to me.

[Anonymous No.21485052]

>>21484237
There's not a single composer whose music is free of 'emotion'. Your arrogance makes you think you can discover the essence of music by yourself, but instead of recognising the incompatibility of your theory with music you just assume everyone else must be wrong. If you want to say you don't like music and are autistic just say it.

[Anonymous No.21485078]

>>21485052
Bro how many times are you going to make me repeat myself? All things in moderation etc. There is a difference between something featuring merely as a part and something predominating within the whole.

[Anonymous No.21485079]

>>21484967
He probably wants to say that these are sublimated emotions that the masculine pillars of society managed to tame.
It's even more silly if you take it to the extreme. Even Bach has dramatic peaks so he's feminine. Maybe a single note is the absolute masculine expression.

[Anonymous No.21485098]

>>21485078
You're slandering life now.

[Anonymous No.21485111]

>>21485079
>Bach
He drank 12 beers a day. He loved life - not like this faggot. If people like him end up in power we're fucked, he's a tyrant of the worst kind.

[Anonymous No.21485113]

>>21485078
That's relevant not absolute. If a monk from 1450 listened to Bach he'd be thinking that's too much pathos

[Anonymous No.21485130]

>>21485079
My argument never was that every emotion is always bad in every context. That is just binary thinking that retards jump to instinctively. The point is that masculinity always remains above emotions and that specific emotions can either complement it (such as true love and bravery, which are to be found in personal life and not in art) or undermine it (pleasure, lust, greed, fear, ecstasy etc).
>>21485098
Take your meds schizo.
>>21485111
If I had my way, I would introduce state-enforced homosexuality [sodomisation] for (You) only.
>>21485113
If you are bringing in religious standards then yes things become more complicated. The Knights Templar were forbidden from listening to any non-religious music.

[Anonymous No.21485138]

>>21485130
>My argument never was that every emotion is always bad in every context. That is just binary thinking that retards jump to instinctively. The point is that masculinity always remains above emotions and that specific emotions can either complement it (such as true love and bravery, which are to be found in personal life and not in art) or undermine it (pleasure, lust, greed, fear, ecstasy etc).

And what do you want to do with this?

[Anonymous No.21485150]

>>21485138
What is there to do with it? In the context of the conversation this relates to the two types of music I outlined, one which is amenable to the masculine life and one which is not. That is all there is to it.

[Anonymous No.21485157]

>>21485150
I agree, but why do you reject living? You can be masculine but you need to live. That's why everyone thinks you have autism.

[Anonymous No.21485162]

>>21485150
>>21485157
That's another kind of decadence. Go out and procreate, spread the love.

[Anonymous No.21485169]

>>21485078
>There is a difference between something featuring merely as a part and something predominating within the whole.
If emotion doesn't predominate within the whole in music then it's not music. There are innumerable aesthetic debates on the meaning of emotion in art, and it may be wrong to say emotion is the purpose of music, but you cannot have music without emotion. What we are describing with the word emotion is essential. Bach doesn't just use emotion as some sort of treat within a logical structure, but the logical structure arises out of a fount of rapture. Wagner said music ends all strife between reason and feeling as pure form.

[Anonymous No.21485174]

>>21485130
>My argument never was that every emotion is always bad in every context.
Now you're moving the goalpost you disingenuous fuck. That's blatantly contradicted by your earlier posts
>The point is that masculinity always remains above emotions
According to a nobody playing at psychopath online on a Tibetan throat singing forum. You're honestly pathetic

[Anonymous No.21485178]

>>21485157
Meds.
>>21485169
It feels like I am talking to a wall. You make me repeat myself like three or four times and still misrepresent me and force bizarre false dichotomies on me.

[Anonymous No.21485191]

>>21485178
So you preach but you don't practice? Why the fuck would you do that? You have lost your instinct to seek your own advantage!

My god this is all so depressing. You are a formidable enemy, you have my love and respect autist man.

[Anonymous No.21485197]

>>21485174
>Now you're moving the goalpost you disingenuous fuck. That's blatantly contradicted by your earlier posts
No, it is not. Ctrl + F "moderation" and you'll see I make my position quite clear very early on in the thread.
>According to a nobody playing at psychopath online on a Tibetan throat singing forum. You're honestly pathetic
The best you can do is name calling, because your effeminacy and dependence on emotions means you are incapable of clear thought and judgement. Too bad for you.

[Anonymous No.21485199]

>>21485191
Take your meds bro. You are funny and all, but take your meds.
>Verification not required.

[Anonymous No.21485209]

>>21485199
>>Verification not required.
I'm getting those too, this is a very productive exchange. I hope you're getting as much out of it as I am.

[Anonymous No.21485213]

>>21484434
Who gives a fuck what a pathetic man like Weininger would have thought?
>becomes a Christian on a whim because Judaism is le feminine
>kills himself shortly thereafter like a pussy, exposing the shallowness of his belief
Only an idiot would even bother with a man like him.

[Anonymous No.21485215]

>>21485197
>No, it is not
"men should never feel emotion in any quantity and any context whatsoever" is your own fucking quote. Seriously stop posting. You're embarrassing yourself
>because your effeminacy and dependence on emotions means you are incapable of clear thought and judgement.
This is pure projection on your part. You must of seriously been abused at some point in your life.
>Too bad for you.
Getting disapproval from you is, in fact, a blessing.

[Anonymous No.21485218]

>>21485178
>It feels like I am talking to a wall. You make me repeat myself like three or four times and still misrepresent me and force bizarre false dichotomies on me.
You couldn't have described yourself better. This entire thread you've spammed your dilettante musical opinions onto everyone (when the thread wasn't even about music), have a shitty dichotomy of logic and emotion, refused to explain when pressed on anything and simply repeated yourself.

[Anonymous No.21485223]

>>21484865
What a load of horse shit.

[Anonymous No.21485229]

>>21485213
>>21485215
>>21485218
I think he's just gay.

[Anonymous No.21485237]

>>21483558
>>21484246
Furtwangler and Schmitt are heads above the clouds. If everyone ITT read them then they wouldn't be debating such superficial trivialities. Smh.

[Anonymous No.21485242]

>>21484939
Congratulations! We're a mere five days into 2023, yet the levels of pseud you are hitting here may go unmatched for the entire year! I really am impressed. Not only would basic intelligence refute all of your braindead assertions here, but with even a basic understanding of neurology you would understand you're full of shit.

Go get your diaper changed.

[Anonymous No.21485267]

>>21485209
You are such a colourful character, anon.
>>21485215
>"men should never feel emotion in any quantity and any context whatsoever" is your own fucking quote. Seriously stop posting. You're embarrassing yourself
Are you genuinely incapable of reading? Do you have a poor grasp of grammar? I already pointed out that you totally inverted the meaning of that misquoted segment before. Why are you doing this again? Do you enjoy being conspicuously unintelligent?
>>21485218
None of the people who responded to me even used logical arguments lol. I am sorry for not being able to take your accusation seriously.
>>21485242
>Not only would basic intelligence refute all of your braindead assertions here
And yet the whole thread no one even makes the attempt to refute them. I wonder why? Perhaps it's because gentlemen such as yourself lack the brainpower to do so?

[Anonymous No.21485281]

>>21484098
>the first

[Anonymous No.21485287]

>>21485267
You are correct on many things. People just don't understand your motivation, that's why you're scaring the hen house.

You are masculine, your logic support you masculinity. now what? Are you sparring just to spar like me?

I'll tell you, you lack a love of life, and have some sort of foreign decadence. It's unsettling.

[Anonymous No.21485307]

>>21485281
Let's hear your esoteric theories anon.
>>21485287
Ah I see, you are asking me why I am engaging in these conversations then? The answer is - currently I am both bored and ill, and I do not have much else to do.

[Anonymous No.21485318]

>>21485267
>None of the people who responded to me even used logical arguments lol.
Let's take an example. Where's your justification in declaring Strauss to be superior to Wagner? Or in declaring composers before Wagner to have been more focused on logic than emotion? To these questions you always respond with simple repetitions of your view.

[Anonymous No.21485327]

>>21485307
>Let's hear your esoteric theories anon.
NTA but it's not esoteric, you're just wrong about a pretty basic feature of music history.

[Anonymous No.21485330]

>>21485318
>Strauss
This is hilarious. He never said that, I did.

[Anonymous No.21485336]

>>21485330
Then you both spam dilettantish opinions without any justification.

[Anonymous No.21485345]

Is there a chart for Wagner anywhere? I've listened to a good many of the operas and I'm definitely going to watch them properly, but I'd love to read his essays or books as well, but I'm not sure where to start beyond a basic chronological bibliography.

[Anonymous No.21485357]

>>21485336
Rosenkavalier truly is majestic. Strauss comes after Wagner, with all the knowledge of Freddy, and he's more refined, more advanced in his pathos. Hopefully you'll get there someday.

[Anonymous No.21485368]

>>21485345
No chart, but I think this is probably the ideal and most simple reading order:

Introduction to his aesthetics:
The Destiny of Opera
The Music of the Future
On Poetry and Composition
On Opera Poetry and Composition in particular
On the Application of Music to Drama

Mature aesthetics:
Beethoven
Actors and SIngers

Introduction to his politics:
Judaism in Music
What is German?

Mature politics:
On German Policy and German Art

Zurich writings:
Art and Revolution
The Artwork of the Future
Opera and Drama

Wagner considered the Zurich writings his most important works and they're the centre of his life. Everything before was leading up to the ideas set out in them, and, once the essential direction was struck, they're the basis for everything done after. But they're best read through Wagner's later works (almost everything listed above) which are reinterpreting, commenting on and bringing forward many of those original ideas as well as benefit from the older Wagner's more lucid temperament and prose. Opera and Drama is his only book-length work and is a tome.

[Anonymous No.21485371]

>>21485318
I have not mentioned Strauss once in this entire thread.
>>21485327
>NTA
Then shut up. Thank you.

[Anonymous No.21485379]

>>21485307
Do you have an ability for tenderness? We're alike in a lot of ways but I can feel and you can't.

[Anonymous No.21485398]

>>21485379
Yes, I do. Is that relevant to the topic at hand?

[Anonymous No.21485404]

>>21485267
Your fucking argument consists of "Emotion is only okay when I say it is and every other time it's feminine and therefore bad". There's nothing logical to your assertions. You can't apply logic to something that is inherently illogical (That is your posts). Your posts consist of nothing but your asinine attempts at sounding intellectual when there's nothing intellectual about your assertions. They are, ironically enough, based solely off of your OWN emotion. That emotion being disdain. You have the mindset of someone whose been supremely abused in the past. Your takes on emotion are mentally unsound. Seek help

[Anonymous No.21485444]

>>21485404
If they are so illogical then why don't you refute them? It should be simple. Here, you can try your hand with this:
>>21484237
You won't be able to do that though. Why? Because the reasoning is ironclad. All you can do is cope and seethe.

[Anonymous No.21485447]

>>21485398
Because you can't feel enough to enjoy music.

[Anonymous No.21485463]

>>21485447
Being able to enjoy music doesn't mean being unable to criticise it. I listen to Wagner occasionally - that doesn't change anything about the nature of his music.

[Anonymous No.21485482]

>>21485444
>>21485463
It's okay, just don't overdo it. Life is to enjoy.

If you loosen up a little do you turn into a raging homosexual? A coke fiend? no? Then enjoy life.

Are you dating this 10/10 that is the most high maintenance ever? no? then enjoy life!

You're doing all this work for nothing.

[Anonymous No.21485492]

>>21485482
Being logical is pleasant and enjoyable to me.

[Anonymous No.21485500]

>>21485492
And what's your ambition in life?

[Anonymous No.21485508]

>>21485357
He's not more refined. Strauss is good in his own way, but to say he is superior to Wagner makes his methods and form look barbarically simple. His innovations in dissonance, leitmotif and orchestration are applications of Wagner's innovations, yet without his mastery. His dissonance comes in large but simple clusters compared with Wagner's detailed use of them, his leitmotifs are far less numerous and structural and are used more for the viewer's recognition (probably coming from his use of them in tone poems) than even Wagner did, and we don't need to mention his orchestration because it's too obvious. It's not just that Wagner's achievements are so much larger than any of his numerous followers such as Strauss, but that none of followers ever surpassed him. It's like saying Beethoven was surpassed by anyone. His works are perfect and cannot be judged by some respective level of refinement. If you want nice sounding music so much then why don't you listen to Meistersinger? Wagner composed it after Tristan, just like Rosenkavalier after Elektra, and it also looks back to traditional operatic, musical and harmonic forms. He called the overture 'applied Bach'.

[Anonymous No.21485521]

>>21485444
He just did refute you retard.

[Anonymous No.21485523]

>>21485444
You refuted nothing of my comments and just referred back to your own shitty argument. Yet you think you can criticize others argumentative skills? Everything about you is disingenuous to the core.

[Anonymous No.21485547]

>>21485508
Listen to the finale of Don Quixote. Strauss produces phrases of a length Wagner was not capable of. He flies higher using less will. That's what I mean by refined, he's just more effective.

Wagner is Siegfried, he's just a titan in terms of will, but the end goal is not there. Strauss's music is philosophical, Wagner is a himbo who suffers.

[Anonymous No.21485579]

>>21485500
Living according to my principles, I suppose.
>>21485521
If he did, then why don't you explain how? I am sure it will be easy for you to do so.
>>21485523
There's nothing to refute in your comments, it's just inane assertions that have nothing to do with what I said. Seethe more, I suppose.

[Anonymous No.21485601]

>>21485579
>it's just inane assertions that have nothing to do with what I said.
Are you really this fucking retarded?

[Anonymous No.21485607]

>>21485601
Leave him alone, he's a good guy.

[Anonymous No.21485766]

>>21485547
What you consider will, should really be called nature. The enormous wealth of creative material that Wagner has, even if you don't like what he does with it, doesn't come from willpower. Your very specific understanding of the 'goal' of music stops you from appreciating it. To many people Wagner is infinitely more potent in effect than Strauss. Frankly I know no more philosophical music than Wagner's. How he transports concepts and poetry into music, it's astounding. His motifs have a universal quality, which, because his genius was lesser (no insult), Strauss' motifs do not achieve, at least to the same degree. Just as the characters of Marlowe are not so inimitable as Shakespeare's. See how the motifs are combined so perfectly, while standing on their own (unlike with many in the Ring), to express Amfortas' religious crisis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHvF0ROiJ8o

I would say that Wagner's music is less affecting on the surface, but more longer lasting. Hence the famous quote about his music being better than it sounds.

[Anonymous No.21486562]

>>21471698
too bad his bombastic music fucking sucks.

[Anonymous No.21486722]

>>21485601
I don't want to hear this from you, thanks.

[Anonymous No.21487437]

>>21484179
I love sucking the dick of a mentally ill german too

[Anonymous No.21488744]

>>21485368
Interesting. I had no idea he'd written so much. Is there anywhere like Gutenberg where these can be found online?

[Anonymous No.21488799]

>>21488744
https://archive.org/details/CollectionOfRichardWagnerProseWorks

[Anonymous No.21489334]

>>21485213
You think like a child. You need to be presented credentialed evidence with phenomena ruled by demonic forces. You don't know what the fruits are or what they look like, fruits are discreet and hidden, they have to be discerned by the spirit. Weininger was haunted by the gheist of a ravening black dog that followed him at night, that's why he was extensively traveling before he died. He heard it howl and the note hit in his heart with a vision of him committing horrible murder. You think he killed himself because he was le sad and couldn't accomplish the things he wanted to in life (projection), but life isn't survival, that's childishness, and he wasn't inept in any capacity. There was nothing Weininger wanted to do that he couldn't do. But life is for the good and the good only, if it's not good, it's not life. But good to you is displays of power as revenge against others, or other trivial things. You're a sick person with no idea what the good or the fruit of good could even look like. Your a child trying to judge a man killing the ravening beast in his heart (he shot himself in the heart and died in horrible pain instead of an easy death to his consciousness) and save his soul. Weininger is now living with the moon men on the golden city of the moon worshipping Menarchus. He's there. I can see him now. And I can see his smile

[Anonymous No.21489709]

>>21489334
Pitiful cope. Keep seething.

[Anonymous No.21489718]

>>21488799
Thanks.