/lit/ - Literature

File: 45 KB, 280x280, 9814671[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 21:57:46 2011 No.2144583 [Reply] [Original]

>Occupy Wall Street’s General Assembly operates under a revolutionary “progressive stack.” A normal “stack” means those who wish to speak get in line. A progressive stack encourages women and traditionally marginalized groups speak before men, especially white men. This is something that has been in place since the beginning, it is necessary, and it is important.

>“Step up, step back” was a common phrase of the first week, encouraging white men to acknowledge the privilege they have lived in their entire lives and to step back from continually speaking. This progressive stack has been inspiring and mind-boggling in its effectiveness.

What does /lit/ think of the OWS protests?

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:00:46 2011 No.2144589 Unorganized hipsters without a coherent agenda. Phasing them out as we speak.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:01:46 2011 No.2144592 4chan is right-wing

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:02:46 2011 No.2144596 >>2144592 /lit/ couldn't be further away from "right-wing"...which makes their views on OWS all the more interesting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:03:46 2011 No.2144601 Is it wrong that I'd side with the 1% before I'd side with racists?

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:04:46 2011 No.2144603

>A progressive stack encourages women and traditionally marginalized groups speak before men, especially white men. This is something that has been in place since the beginning, it is necessary, and it is important.

Because it's always much easier to shift equality rather than aim for true equality (not that is possible). And haven't they ever read the phrase, 'think before you leap?' Being the last to speak sometimes has its advantages.

>“Step up, step back” was a common phrase of the first week, encouraging white men to acknowledge the privilege they have lived in their entire lives and to step back from continually speaking.

I was poor growing up, fuck you. If you aren't inferior to white men then you shouldn't have to put such authoritarian doctrines into place. 'Liberal' my ass.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:04:46 2011 No.2144604 its not books

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:05:46 2011 No.2144606

>>2144589
i agree that the ignorance of the majority is making a mockery out of the whole idea of protest, but at least they have taken some kind of "progressive" step. im hoping a more educated group will hijack the movement and use it to actually change something

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:05:46 2011 No.2144608 >>2144604 Neither are the 4 homework threads on the fucking homepage, go sage them instead of a once-a-week serious discussion.

>>	Oppressed Womyn of Color !hXhjdNBnb6 Mon Oct 17 22:06:46 2011 No.2144610 File: 19 KB, 449x503, oppressed6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] You know who DOESN'T get a chance to go to the front of the line whenever the time comes to speak? Oppressed womyn of co... oh wait, never mind

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:06:46 2011 No.2144611 >>2144601 that seems a bit counter productive dont you think?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:06:46 2011 No.2144612 >>2144603 *shift inequality My point still stands, I'm ashamed that I was born into the same generation as these morons.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:08:46 2011 No.2144617 >>2144606 >im hoping a more educated group will hijack the movement lol >and use it to actually change something lmao

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:08:46 2011 No.2144618 >>2144611 I'd rather be poor than be discriminated against. So not really.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:09:46 2011 No.2144621

This is why a genuinely effective rebellion against the power of finance capital will have to be explicitly white and populist. Otherwise the usual academic-left suspects will hijack it in the name of their own perverted ideology and material interests.

What do we want?
> More funding for the Womyn's, African-American and Queer Studies departments!
When do we want it?
> NOW!

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:10:46 2011 No.2144625 >>2144606 That is the idea. Or rather we are using it as a recruiting ground. The movement itself is just sort of silly.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:11:46 2011 No.2144627 >>2144592 most people on 4chan seem to be left-libertarians, or the green section in the political compass test.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:12:46 2011 No.2144630

The OWS people are completely insane.

They are anti-trade protectionists that want to raise the minimum wage to $20 and believe that this (coupled with some spending increases on infrastructure) will create so many jobs that it will require open borders to fill them.

Seriously.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:13:46 2011 No.2144631

I'm ok with encouraging white men to acknowledge the privilege they have lived in their entire lives and to step back from continually placing funnels into assholes and then the 2nd whore pukes into it. After the ass is filled with puke, a cock then fucks it until the pressure is all built up. After the asshole has been fucked hard enough, the cock is pulled out and the anal cannon explodes! To top it all off, ass to mouth occurs, with both ladies licking off the fresh mix of vomit and ass for the ultimate progressive stack which has been inspiring and mind-boggling in its effectiveness.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:13:46 2011 No.2144633 >>2144621 >Putting funding into 'Women Studies.' >Not putting funding into encouraging young women to pursue science oriented fields. Well, porn isn't going to make itself.

Oppressed Womyn of Color !hXhjdNBnb6 Mon Oct 17 22:14:46 2011 No.2144637
File: 193 KB, 500x667, oppressed7.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2144631

You know who can't afford funnels because they're too busy working three jobs to support their families?

Oppressed womyn of color!

You need to check your privilege, Anal Cannon guy!

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:14:46 2011 No.2144638 >>2144633 Ironically I hear the Swiss subsidize feminist porn. Have considered making exceedingly cheap low quality porn that technically counts for the sole purpose of obtaining Swiss subsidies.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:14:46 2011 No.2144640 >>2144633 how much do you weigh

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:15:46 2011 No.2144642

I can't even get angry at this. This is just so blatantly racist and such a perversion of the concept of racial and gender equality that I almost can't help but wonder if this kind of shit is corporate interests trying to marginalize this movement as much as possible.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:15:46 2011 No.2144643 >>2144638 That's the Swedish, not the Swiss.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:17:46 2011 No.2144645 Does the term "distributive justice" mean anything to anyone?

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:17:46 2011 No.2144646 >>2144643 It is the Swedes? That makes more sense.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:18:46 2011 No.2144648

>>2144630

This. They correctly recognize that American workers are getting screwed by "free trade," yet they believe that anyone who opposes open borders must obviously by motivated by racial hate.

Again, this is why a successful anti-Wall Street movement will be populist or it will be nothing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:20:46 2011 No.2144655 >>2144618 you appear to have failed to understand the necessary discrimination implicit in a capitalist system

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:21:46 2011 No.2144657

>>2144638
Funny you said that because I have considered making exceedingly cheap low quality porn that technically counts for the sole purpose of placing a funnel into an asshole, and the 2nd whore pukes into it. After the ass is filled with oppressed womyn studies, a cock then fucks it until the pressure is all built up. After the asshole has been fucked hard enough, the cock is pulled out and the oppressed womyn studies explodes! To top it all off, ass to mouth occurs, with both ladies licking off the fresh mix of vomit and ass for the ultimate perversion of the concept of racial and gender equality that I almost can't help but wonder if this kind of shit is corporate interests trying to marginalize this movement as much as possible.
And obtaining Swiss subsidies, of course.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:23:46 2011 No.2144662 >>2144601 considering racism is the belief that there are aggregate differences between races (which doesn't necessitate discrimination), yes, that's very wrong.

Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:23:46 2011 No.2144663

>>2144648

I think populists have to be included, but I think you're underestimating moderates who aren't populist but who don't completely derp when it comes to social issues.

For instance, I'd consider going to one of these forums. If I was told I had to let the black guys and women go first because of White Privileges I'd walk the fuck out: I come from an ethnicity that went through over 500 years of brutal slavery, but I don't fucking advertise it because it shouldn't be a fucking issue unless someone makes an issue out of it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:24:46 2011 No.2144665 >>2144603 >Being the last to speak sometimes has its advantages. It's a conspiracy by the patriarchal male organizers to make retention of information spoken by white men easier for listeners

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:25:46 2011 No.2144667 >>2144662 You missed the most crucial part of racism: that those differences are inherent.

Oppressed Womyn of Color !hXhjdNBnb6 Mon Oct 17 22:25:46 2011 No.2144668
File: 68 KB, 500x375, oppressed8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2144657

But you know whose voices, as usual, AREN'T being heard in the low-budget progressive porno films which Occupy Wall Street is protesting to have subsidized by the Swiss government? Oppressed womyn of co...

No, wait. Shit.

Dammit Anal Cannon, you and your white privilege have outwitted me again!

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:26:46 2011 No.2144670

I found out two of my friends went down to it, and it made me feel kind of disappointed in them. Mainly because it made me realize that they perfectly fit the "unorganized college hipster taking a major they'll never make good money in while just sitting around smoking pot and not trying to get a job" bill perfectly.

That's about it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:26:46 2011 No.2144671 >>2144667 oh, yes. in the same way i don't support animal abuse, i don't think racists necessarily believe discrimination is OK.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:27:46 2011 No.2144672

>>2144640
5'8 and 140.

I just honestly believe that encouraging women to pursue useless degrees is counter-productive. Because rather than making legitimate contributions to humanity, they end up a cocksucker because they can't find jobs.

Tell me, what 'job' can a degree in women studies land besides a under appreciated and undersexed HR representative and/or porn actress? And no, a self-help author doesn't count.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:27:46 2011 No.2144673 File: 11 KB, 362x588, leprechaun.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2144663 amirite?

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:28:46 2011 No.2144675

>>2144648
talk to most modern economist and they will tell you that protectionist policies at most times do not benefit the nation at the whole but rather fucks one side and not the other.
A case in point we decided to place higher tariffs on chinese tires a industry we arent as good at and the chinese fucked up by raising the tariffs we sell a fuck ton hurting purdue and tyson massivly.

does it have good intentions? Yes it does but now the Chicken producers are hurting. The truth is america will probably have an economic collapse because no one will accept the facts or vote for a leader telling us we need to radically adjust the way we live to fix things

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:28:46 2011 No.2144676 >>2144673 slow clap

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:29:46 2011 No.2144679

>>2144663

What a coincidence! I come from an ethnicity that went through over 500 years of brutally placing a funnel into an asshole, and the 2nd whore pukes into it. After the ass is filled with puke, a cock then fucks it until the pressure is all built up. After the asshole has been fucked hard enough, the cock is pulled out and the anal cannon explodes!

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:29:46 2011 No.2144682 >>2144673 Nope. Gypsy. You know what we did when we got tired of being discriminated against in the US when we fled Europe? Settled the fuck down and improved our lives.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:30:46 2011 No.2144684 >>2144675 Not to mention that actually putting up new barriers would be diplomatic suicide. Or that free trade stops wars.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:31:46 2011 No.2144687 >>2144682 >Gypsy Excuse me, I believe the politically correct term is "Romani"

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:31:46 2011 No.2144688 >>2144679 That's a pretty good description of Anglo-Irish relations actually

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:33:46 2011 No.2144696 >>2144682 mmm, that's good bootstraps

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:34:46 2011 No.2144698 >>2144687 The usual in eastern europe is Tsigani, which literally means slave. Romani usually pisses off the Italians. Really I don't give a fuck.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:35:46 2011 No.2144699 >>2144679 Is this stuff automated or is someone actually posting it? Is it some fucked up art experiment or a psychedelic trolling attempt? Either way, I like it.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:36:46 2011 No.2144700

>>2144589
They're extremely organised. You think you can invite hundreds of people to camp in a park and expect the logistics to take care of themselves? Believe me, they spend a lot of time organizing. Just because they aren't stepping forward to identify themselves for the police doesn't mean they're not there.

And their demands are perfectly coherent, just very expansive. That's what you get when you have so many people involved and so many things worth complaining about. The central message is crystal clear, no matter how the media is trying to present it as too diffuse to take seriously; they want money out of politics and a fairer distribution of wealth and power. It's bigger than any single issue.

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:37:46 2011 No.2144701 >>2144696 Bootstraps is a silly idea. Your saging is also silly. So are the Occupy Wallstreet people.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:38:46 2011 No.2144706 Don't complain about too much money in politics. Take power away from the people with money.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:38:46 2011 No.2144707

>>2144700
>The central message is crystal clear, no matter how the media is trying to present it as too diffuse to take seriously; they want money out of politics

Nothing like that is mentioned in their list of demands. You're just projecting shit onto the movement now, anon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:39:46 2011 No.2144710 >>2144701 you said people who face discrimination just need to "settle down" and "improve their lives," how is that any different you are gypsy ron paul

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:40:46 2011 No.2144713 >>2144700 and they think standing around is going to make these people just hand them money? modern conditions in the united states dont allow for peaceful change. they might receive some type of pacifying gains but they will always be illusory

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:40:46 2011 No.2144714

>>2144706
>Don't complain about too much money in politics. Take power away from the people with money.

Seriously, this is so fucking trivial...it's a fucking democracy. If you don't want politicians influenced by money in charge, don't vote for them. There ARE alternatives.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:41:46 2011 No.2144717

>>2144663

That may be so. I think most white Americans are sensible but cowed when it comes to race/ethnic relations -- they believe in fair play and hard work and genuinely want to see minorities succeed, but they know that any attempt to challenge the more blatantly unfair aspects of the affirmative action regime will lead the usual suspects to attack them as racist.

I'd like to see a center-populist movement that confronts the race-grievance left head on in the name of fair play while simultaneously attacking Wall Street power. If responsible moderates don't make a case for genuine colorblindness, frustrated downwardly mobile whites will be driven to side with groups that really ARE racist.

Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:41:46 2011 No.2144721

>>2144700

Really? And how do they want to do it? Do they want legislation requiring greater transparency in electoral donations? Do they want greater regulations, or more background inquiries into regulators to ascertain whether or not they have an incentive to perform favors for the people they are supposed to be scrutinizing? Do they have ballot measures or bills they want passed? Have they formed a voting bloc to push friendly candidates into office? Have they set up a lobby of some sort?

When I talk to these fuckers here 99% of the time they have no idea what concrete steps they want to take at all, and they go on about how it's a movement to empower people not to pass legislation.

I think my parents said it best: "It's like it's 68 all over again!"

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:41:46 2011 No.2144722 >>2144706 But that's. Exactly. The same thing. >>2144707 Fair enough then, but that's what I heard from talking to people involved with in the protests.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:42:46 2011 No.2144726 >>2144710 to be fair, gypsy ron paul would be the greatest presidential candidate, vote gypsy ron paul

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:43:46 2011 No.2144727 >>2144714 >There ARE alternatives. No there fucking aren't, not in America, not with that electoral system.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:43:46 2011 No.2144729 >>2144707 Those lists are pretty arbitrary, it's not like they've been democratically construed.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:44:46 2011 No.2144731 OWS reminds me of that south park episode where the hippies convince the kids they're gonna change the world, then they just sit around playing banjos and smoking pot or whatever. Lots of big words, no action.

Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:44:46 2011 No.2144732

>>2144710

No. That applies to gypsies: we can pass for being white. We didn't get social programs like blacks did, at least not in the US, we did in Europe.

Making it from "poor and discriminated against" to "modestly successful" is hard as fuck. It can be done, but you shouldn't have such a fucking hard time of it, not with the deliberate obstacles set up by the ultra wealthy.

You're reading things into what I'm saying that I didn't say.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:45:46 2011 No.2144736
File: 15 KB, 300x197, themoreyouknow.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2144688

The john represents England, the first whore represents Ireland, and the second whore represents the Ulster Scots. The Anal Cannon itself represents the Troubles.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:46:46 2011 No.2144739

>>2144727
Just because they're not on TV doesn't mean they don't exist.

Shit, even though he's pretty kooky, you can't say Ron Paul sucks Special Interests cock. And there are others like that ALREADY IN POWER. If there aren't any honest candidates available, run yourself. That is how democracy works.

You have to exercise your power and your rights to change shit, not sit around in a park preaching to the choir.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:48:46 2011 No.2144745 >>2144700 >It's bigger than any single issue. Except apparently white men wanting to speak at a rally.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:49:46 2011 No.2144748

>>2144721
>Really? And how do they want to do it? Do they want legislation requiring greater transparency in electoral donations? Do they want greater regulations, or more background inquiries into regulators to ascertain whether or not they have an incentive to perform favors for the people they are supposed to be scrutinizing? Do they have ballot measures or bills they want passed? Have they formed a voting bloc to push friendly candidates into office? Have they set up a lobby of some sort?

No, because they're not at that point yet. Because this is a movement about getting people to recognise that something is fundamentally broken in society, and trying to get them angry about it. They're lobbying the public, not the government.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:49:46 2011 No.2144749 >>2144736 1/Read The Anal Cannon. 2/Compare all available translations. 3/???? 4/Profit!

Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:54:46 2011 No.2144757

>>2144748

Lobbying the public doesn't fucking work until it comes time to vote: then you call it campaigning. First you have to have something to campaign on.

If people are getting out and marching in public in a lot of places, you have the manpower necessary to set up a network motivated enough to be continually active that can push through legislation and candidates.

I fucking hate it when protestors say "We're raising awareness man". Okay, my awareness is raised, now what's the fucking plan? Don't have one? Then follow or get out of the fucking way.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:56:46 2011 No.2144760 >>2144739 >>2144739 >run yourself lolololol As if anyone who isn't already very wealthy has any chance at national office.

Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 22:58:46 2011 No.2144766

>>2144760

Run in a local election dipshit. Work your way up. Build up a name and supporters.

The people who succeed in a democratic system are the people who learn to work the system, and until OWS learns to do that I'm just going to plunder them for members.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:58:46 2011 No.2144767 >>2144745 It's not like any of the protesters have anything interesting to say anyway, lol

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 22:59:46 2011 No.2144770 >People complaining about white male privilege. Emma Goldman would be laughing her ass off at how idiotic and misguided these protests are. No doubt they're quoting her extensively, too.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:00:46 2011 No.2144773 >>2144766 Doesn't work that way. The money issue is ever present.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:01:46 2011 No.2144774 >>2144770 There's only one Goldman those guys care about lol

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 23:01:46 2011 No.2144775 >>2144773 You ever try and pass a ballot initiative? Lobby for a city hall candidate? Run for a local office? No? Done all three. Lost the third, succeeded in the first two. Stop being a fucking hipster.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:02:46 2011 No.2144779 >>2144748 OK I'm angry that corporations are evil and want to rape my soul or whatever. What's their solution? Like serious policy proposals that could actually pass if we elect a bunch of these people.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:03:46 2011 No.2144781 >>2144775 heh, those hipsters with their animal collective and their never trying to pass a ballot initiative

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:04:46 2011 No.2144782

>>2144779
>What's their solution?

They don't have one that they can all agree on.

Rick Wolff made a speech proposing worker ownership of the means of production, but they can't even agree on whether or not that would be a good thing. The protesters lack of any goal is what will ultimately drive them into the ground.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:04:46 2011 No.2144785

>>2144773
I disagree, but even if that were so then again, that's an issue with the voters, not "the system", "the corporations" or anything like that. If voters want to exercise their power by voting only on people with money, THAT IS THEIR PREROGATIVE.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:08:46 2011 No.2144790

>>2144785
You moron the problem isn't that politicians are well off the problem is that getting elected requires enormous financial backing and is fucking impossible without generous corporate donors who then own the official in question for their entire career.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:09:46 2011 No.2144794

>Don't complain about too much money in politics. Take power away from the people with money.

"Money, even more than other good things like beauty, eloquence, and charm, has a tendency to 'seep across boundaries' and to buy things that should not be for sale: exemption from military service; love and friendship; political office itself (thanks to the exorbitant cost of political campaigns). The principle of equality is best served, Walzer maintains, not by ensuring an equal distribution of income but by setting limits on the imperialism of the market, which 'transforms every social good into a commodity.' 'What is at issue,' he writes, '...is the dominance of money outside its sphere.' There is much wisdom in these words, and those who value democracy would do well to heed them. But it is equally important to remember....that economic inequality is intrinsically undesirable, even when confined to its proper sphere. Luxury is morally repugnant, and its incompatibility with democratic ideals, moreover, has been consistently recognized in the traditions that shape our political culture. The difficulty of limiting the influence of wealth suggests that welath itself needs to be limited. When money talks, everybody else is condemned to listen. For that reason a democratic society cannot allow unlimited accumulation. Social and civic equality presuppose at least a rough approximation of economic equality."

--Christopher Lasch, The Revolt of the Elites (pp 21-2)

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:09:46 2011 No.2144796 >>2144779 There's a lot of different ones floating around. Some protestors would be happy with higher marginal tax rates, others are out-and-out anarchists. The challenge is still getting people to recognise the problem.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:12:46 2011 No.2144803 >>2144790 OK, but why is it impossible? Because voters don't vote for people without money. The "problem" is not corporate donors, it's the voters and who they vote for. It's democracy in action, whether you like it or not.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:20:46 2011 No.2144819 >>2144803 Because voters are given no viable options outside of plutocrat-approved Republican and Democrat candidates, and there's an enormous propaganda machine ensuring it stays that way. It's a piss-poor kind of democracy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:21:46 2011 No.2144820 >>2144803 >Because voters don't vote for people without money Except that's wrong. Voters vote for the most well-financed candidate because it's easier for them to get their word out.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:23:46 2011 No.2144826 >>2144820 and not this guy, but to add onto this, don't think that you can cite 5 or 10 underdog candidates who won their respective local elections. Corporate money in politics is a systemic problem across the US and other industrialized nations.

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 23:25:46 2011 No.2144829 ITT: people remind me why I'm tempted to sell out to the man every time I become involved with political movements because working with protestors is like herding hipster cats.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:27:46 2011 No.2144832 >>2144829 You just have the massive sense of self-importance that's infecting all your posts for me now. You might consider de-tripping.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:27:46 2011 No.2144836 File: 409 KB, 3512x2012, 11444661477.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2144829

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:28:46 2011 No.2144842 >>2144583 That shit reminds me of Khmer Rouge tactics. Oh, you happen to wear glasses? Yeah, you're fucked...

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:28:46 2011 No.2144845 >>2144829 brilliant simile

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:29:46 2011 No.2144846 >>2144820 OK, so "having one's word out" is a metric by which voters judge the candidates. They judge that metric positively. Still don't see your point.

Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 23:30:46 2011 No.2144850

>>2144832

Why should I give a fuck what someone on the internet thinks? I trip for convenience in conversations so I don't get conflated falsely with other anons. I also trip because prior to tripping getting accused of being on the far right, the far left, and all kinds of contradictory shit in the same conversation got tiresome, so I thought I'd save people the trouble of a moving target.

>>2144836

You're welcome to not care. I'm not pissed about voter apathy because most of the apathetic are not educated on the issues.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:31:46 2011 No.2144851

>>2144846
My point is that a candidate with a lot of money will more easily be able to spread his propaganda than a candidate with little to no money.

There's a reason why the Green party has never won an election, despite the majority of Americans believing in what they preach.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:31:46 2011 No.2144853 >>2144721 how about you do some research. they want house bill HR1489 to pass, for starters.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:33:46 2011 No.2144856

>>2144819
This is the age of the internet. The are no propaganda machines in the proper sense of the word. People who want to educate themselves about politics can do so easily. People who want to research the candidate field can do so easily. People looking for alternative points of view can do so easily. If they do none of these things, it is by choice.

If people are listening to the "propaganda machines" of fox and msnbc it is by choice.

People aren't brainwashed or hoodwinked into voting for the candidates backed by money, it is a conscious choice, and you don't gain anything by belittling and patronizing the very 99% that the OWS movement claims to represent.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:34:46 2011 No.2144859 >>2144803 holy crap you're naive

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:35:46 2011 No.2144861

>>2144850
>I
>I
>I
>I
>I
>I
You just don't get it. Why do you think being anonymous is the default on these boards? Because nobody gives a shit who you are or what you stand for, and if you have the gall to use a trip, you damn well better have something interesting to say.

But you don't, and that's why we're railing on you. Because your trip is just one sign of unwarranted self-importance.

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 23:35:46 2011 No.2144865 >>2144853 So does everybody who knows what HR 1489 is and isn't in the 1%, which is like... 3%... maybe. Why aren't they being vocal about it to push it up to more than that if they "support" it?

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:35:46 2011 No.2144866

>>2144856
>If people are listening to the "propaganda machines" of fox and msnbc it is by choice.

Or ignorance. You act like people would even begin to know where to look for other potential candidates. Like it or not, virtually all voters are woefully uninformed. This isn't a conscious decision on their part, either. I can't blame a man for not wanting to scour the internet to look for a single page with a detailed list of candidates.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:37:46 2011 No.2144874 >>2144859 Why, because I don't think every single voter is blubbering idiot? If what you say is true, then we're fucked anyways and there's no reason to protest in the first place.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:38:46 2011 No.2144877

>>2144865

they are. just because uninformed dickholes like yourself are too busy wiggling their arms around like spazzy little blowhards complaining about how GOSH NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING OH MY GOSH to pay any attention to it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

just go to bed.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:39:46 2011 No.2144878

>>2144856
>Research shows that older Americans are in danger of being cut off from one of the most provocative communication media of the 21st century.3 In the United States, adults 65 and older make up 12.4 percent of the population, with only 4 percent of this group using the Internet.4 When viewed alongside other age groups, older adults’ use of the Internet pales in comparison. For example, the 2000 Census reports that approximately 80 million adults between the ages of 30 and 49 live in the United States.5 Of those 80 million, 75 percent, or 60 million, have used the Internet.6

woo woo, information age herp de derp free knowledge for everybody

Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 23:40:46 2011 No.2144879

>>2144861

By we do you mean a handful of other people who agree with you? Jesus Christ, don't give me that anon bullshit about the death of the ego over the internet. We're all strangers who are functionally anonymous having a conversation over the internet, I use the word "I", get the fuck over it.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:40:46 2011 No.2144881
File: 61 KB, 464x348, farcry.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

Milling around with some shouting. Not going to change anything unless they change their tactics.

The day of the nonviolent mob is long gone. For better or (more probably) for worse, people are going to have to do some serious fighting if they truly want something to happen.
Two or three well-placed Breiviks >>> all of the Occupy Wall Street movement

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:42:46 2011 No.2144884

>>2144856
yes, you can easily research a candidate, but how many people do? can the average voter tell you say, their local congressman's positions on the issues? i think not. people vote for charismatic personalities, someone they like.

you or me may research our candidate of choice, but joe voter does not. they respond to well produced ads, charismatic speeches, etc.

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 23:42:46 2011 No.2144885 >>2144881 Violent protest is even more of a joke.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:42:46 2011 No.2144886

>>2144878
Are they cut off from the internet by political interests? No.

Seriously, there's a reason they call it "freedom", it's because people are allowed to make choices freely.

Bums are on the internet fapping to porn at my local library. If they can get on the net, anyone can.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:42:46 2011 No.2144887 File: 83 KB, 658x825, FidelCastroSmiling.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2144881 Imagine if we just assassinated anyone who disagreed with us. I think the Bolsheviks had the right idea.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:42:46 2011 No.2144888 Everybody chills the fuck out. I've got the Anal Cannon, and I'm not afraid to use it.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:43:46 2011 No.2144889

>>2144859
not really bro. ultimately this is the fault of the american electorate - it's our fault for electing the entire power system. we're the ones who elected reagan because he offered happy lies and and allowed him to scrap financial regulations (along w clinton and bush). it's our responsibility to be informed and not idiots, and we've clearly failed in that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:43:46 2011 No.2144890 >>2144888 calling your bluff -- where are the puking whores?

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:45:46 2011 No.2144893

>>2144874

it's not that people are idiots--it's just that they're being manipulated. it kind of isn't their fault. you have to be kind of a pain in the ass to begin with (like us) to even realize this stuff.

BUT WAIT! that doesn't mean all is lost. if we push for campaign finance reform and drastically limit corporate and lobby donations, then there's still hope.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:46:46 2011 No.2144895 >>2144879 >functionally anonymous we know who you are every time you post. How is that functionally anonymous? Just because we can't order pizza and send it to your house doesn't mean you're functionally anonymous.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:46:46 2011 No.2144897 >>2144889 see >>2144893 being a misanthrope is counterproductive

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:47:46 2011 No.2144900

>>2144893
sorry but the people still have the ultimate responsibility here. that's ultimately the point of a democracy. if you're just going to throw up your hands and say MANIPULATED then there is no point in having a democracy because there is always going to be someone out there to lie. you gotta way too simplistic view of politics sis.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:48:46 2011 No.2144901 >>2144890 all over the thread

>>	Pseudonym !YgQRHAJqRA Mon Oct 17 23:49:46 2011 No.2144903 >>2144895 That is functional anonymity: no one knows who the other is unless they let them know. You're going with one arbitrary definition of anonymity, the one that you prefer, and pretending like it's the only one that matters.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:49:46 2011 No.2144906 >>2144900 my view is simplistic? mine? you're the one who's saying that corporate campaign finance abuse is the electorate's fault? we literally have no say in the matter.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:50:46 2011 No.2144907
File: 67 KB, 445x333, lenin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2144887
The soviet republic, as shitty as it ultimately was, certainly wouldn't have come about through "the will of the people." Change is usually for the worse, but if you want it bad enough, gotta break a leg somewhere.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:50:46 2011 No.2144908 >>2144900 it looks to me like you're the only one throwing up your hands and walking away. unless you're trying to be ironic...

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:51:46 2011 No.2144916 >>2144907 >Change is usually for the worse, and more empty statement has never been spoken.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:52:46 2011 No.2144917

>>2144900
Let's pose a thought experiment. Candidate #1 spends $10,000 on his campaign for the presidency. Candidate #2 spends $100 million. Candidate #1 is a great candidate with a great platform that would benefit all Americans. Candidate #2 is an incompetent businessman who got a bunch of corporate donations.

Do you believe these two candidates are on equal footing in this scenario? Do you believe this is a fair election process?

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:53:46 2011 No.2144921

>>2144906
corporate financing of politics IS a problem. money in politics IS a problem. but the final responsibility lies with us, the electorate, and you have to acknowledge that as long as this is to remain at bottom a democratic form of government. your worldview is too simplistic in that there are only two groups: the wealthy (who are misleading/deceiving everyone else) and the deceived. again, i do think that corporate financing is a problem - but what i disagree with is this notion that we somehow have no say at all in the matter. if we wanted to vote for Carter instead of Reagan in '80, we could have. if we wanted to see through the lies, we could have. it is our failure to live up to our responsibilities as informed citizens that is at the heart of this current bullshit situation. and if it's literally impossible for us to overcome that, then we might as well fuck off with this democracy shit. people get the government they deserve, and all that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:55:46 2011 No.2144928 >>2144917 - It is unfair - If Candidate 2 wins, that is ultimately the responsibility of the electorate in a democratic system of government, it is the responsibility of the people to determine who ought to govern them.

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:55:46 2011 No.2144930
File: 115 KB, 397x600, you displease oswald.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>There is no proletarian, not even a Communist movement, that has not operated in the interests of money, and for the time being permitted by money – and that without the idealists among its leaders having the slightest suspicion of the fact.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:56:46 2011 No.2144933 >>2144921 if you acknowledge it's a problem why are you posting all these words making excuses for it

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:56:46 2011 No.2144936

>>2144917

yep. the candidate with all the money will be all up on TV with ads, all up in a bus driving to EVERY battleground state, making speeches, putting out a shit ton of press releases from a dope PR firm and a huge campaign staff, making morning news appearances, etc.

it is not a level playing field when money gets involved. you'll notice that only a handful of republican candidates get national news coverage. you know there are SCORES more in the race, right? ever wonder why they're not on tv? how come we only hear about the same 5 people?

i'll give you a hint...$$$

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:57:46 2011 No.2144937 >>2144907 Is that Lenin beating the shit out of Stalin? What the fuck am I looking at?

Anonymous Mon Oct 17 23:58:46 2011 No.2144939

>>2144933
you're the one making excuses for the situation. i'm the one saying that blaming others for the situation is stupid, that it's on us that this happened and it's on us to change it. you're the one saying that we're literally helpless babies. i'm the one saying we're citizens.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:00:46 2011 No.2144943

>>2144928
>If Candidate 2 wins, that is ultimately the responsibility of the electorate
Are you shitting me? When you go to bed tonight, after you've tucked yourself in, really think about how a man with $10,000 can compete against a man with $100 million. Really, really consider it. And don't handwave it by saying "THE INTERNET" because that's fucking borderline technological determinism.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:00:46 2011 No.2144944

Occupy Wall Street’s General Assembly operates under a revolutionary “progressive anal cannon stack.” A normal “stack” means those who wish to place a funnel into an asshole get in line. A progressive anal cannon stack encourages women and traditionally marginalized groups to put a funnel into an asshole before men, especially white men, and then the 2nd whore pukes into it. This is something that has been in place since the beginning, it is necessary, and it is important. After the ass is filled with puke, a cock then fucks it until the pressure is all built up,
encouraging white men to acknowledge the privilege they have lived in their entire lives and to step back from continually placing a funnel into an asshole. After the asshole has been fucked hard enough, the cock is pulled out and the Anal cannon explodes! To top it all off, ass to mouth occurs, with both ladies licking off the fresh mix of vomit and ass for the ultimate General Assembly!

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:00:46 2011 No.2144945 The Weather Underground had the right idea. The Occupiers should just blow up Wall Street instead.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:01:46 2011 No.2144946 >>2144939 buddy you need to grow up.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:01:46 2011 No.2144948 >>2144939 how is the citizens united decision the electorate's fault

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:01:46 2011 No.2144950 >>2144937 Robot Stalin, even. Hell if I know what it is--someone else posted it a few days ago. Was happy to get an excuse to repost.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:02:46 2011 No.2144951

>>2144893
Dude, you're posting on fucking 4chan, a place famed for its stupidity, and referring to "us" as some sort of enlightened class of intellectuals looking over the retarded masses being led around by their manipulative masters.

It's ridiculous. At some point you have to accept that people make the choices because of the things that they (rightly or not) believe, not because of The Corporations or The Man or The System.

You are not as exceptional as you think you are.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:02:46 2011 No.2144953 >>2144945 i think the weather underground's ideas included blowing up my alma mater's library soooo...no.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:02:46 2011 No.2144954

>>2144943
Because this is a fucking democracy, and in a fucking democracy, it is the responsibility of the citizens to see to it that the best man is put into office. In a functioning democracy, the better man will win, because the citizens will fucking get him there.

and i mean, shit. even the lack of good campaign finance is ultimately our fault as a citizenry. because good campaign finance does make the functioning of a democracy a whole lot easier, and the fact that it doesn't exist is shameful and again at bottom the responsibility of the citizenry.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:03:46 2011 No.2144956 >>2144939 >Just vote to end segregation! >Just vote to dissolve the Bank of the United States! >Just vote against Vietnam!

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:03:46 2011 No.2144957 >>2144944 Hmm...I'm having a little trouble understanding. I think you need to draw us a diagram.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:04:46 2011 No.2144959 >>2144951 it must be really simple living with your head up your ass all the time. probably a little hard to breathe, though.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:04:46 2011 No.2144960

>>2144906
>we literally have no say in the matter.

We have ALL the say in the matter. Corporations don't vote, people do. If people thought that spending money does not constitute free speech, and considered this important enough, they would vote for candidates that supported this position.

In a free society, where the citizens are given the power, they also have absolute responsibility for the results of the exercise of said power.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:05:46 2011 No.2144961

>>2144948
elected candidates with certain views on campaign finance -> appointed supreme court candidates with those views

>>2144956
i am not arguing against the OWS protests, for the record. i am in favor of those protests and any kind of democratic action people want to take.

i'm arguing against the bizarre thesis that the utter failure of the government is not the fault of the electorate in a democracy.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:07:46 2011 No.2144966

>>2144954
No, you don't seem to understand. People didn't even know that Candidate #1 was running. They thought Candidate #2 was running unopposed. Candidate #1 couldn't afford to maintain a website that would even begin to support the traffic needed to publicize.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:07:46 2011 No.2144968 >>2144960 let me guess...you grew up in a very comfortable economic situation, didn't you?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:08:46 2011 No.2144969 >>2144961 okay i'll go back in time and tell my parents not to vote for reagan

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:09:46 2011 No.2144971

>>2144968
listen i see where this is going so i'ma just put this out there

if your argument is that people don't have the time to engage in politics and see through lies and determine who the best candidate is, that they're disengaged and tired and just vote party-line, i understand that argument. i'm sympathetic to it. but the obvious corollary of that argument is that we shouldn't have a democracy.

I'M OUT BITCHES

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:12:46 2011 No.2144978 >>2144971 my argument is that we're being manipulated into voting against our own best interests. this doesn't mean that democracy doesn't work, it means that democracy is being perverted. naive as fucking hell

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:12:46 2011 No.2144980 >>2144971 >if we can't have massive corporate donations to our elected officials, we can't have a democracy This isn't a very good sell, to be honest.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:15:46 2011 No.2144988

>>2144978
no, it means that democracy doesn't work, or that the democratic electorate up to now has failed

>>2144980
hmmm way 2 read

here let me summarize my views for you

- yes OWS protests
- yes campaign finance reform
- yes democratic power of the people
- no to absolving the electorate of responsibility for the massive political fuckups of the past

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:16:46 2011 No.2144991

>>2144980
That's not the argument, the argument is that if people wanted to stop corporations from being able to donate to political causes, they can do so through the standard voting process. They do not. Whether this is right or wrong, good or bad for the country or democracy or the world or the poor is completely and utterly irrelevant. That is democracy. Deal with it.

>>2144978
Again, you have a gigantically inflated sense of self-worth. You are not better than everybody else. People are not idiotic sheep being led around by people with money. They make choices you don't like, and instead of accepting it you choose to live in a fantasy world where someone stripped them of their cognition and is just using them, while you and the other intellectuals look on in horror. That is not actually the case.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:16:46 2011 No.2144993
File: 11 KB, 300x250, kipling 4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2144971
How do you feel about Constitutional Monarchy, anon? All the benefits of democracy, but the head of state is trained from birth to do their job and can have a future time orientation of longer than four years.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:17:46 2011 No.2144995 >>2144978 BUT IF YOU'RE BEING MANIPULATED THEN IT MEANS ITS YOUR FAULT AND YOU'RE DUMB AND DON'T DESERVE DEMOCRACY. I REALLY HAVE A FLIMSY GRASP ON THE POWER OF THAT MONEY HAS TO EXPLOIT AND SWAY PEOPLE. ALSO, I HAVE RANCID ASS GAS.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:18:46 2011 No.2144998 >>2144988 i still don't understand why you don't think people have been lied to and coerced into voting against their best interests.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:20:46 2011 No.2145000

>>2144991

>if people wanted to stop corporations from being able to donate to political causes, they can do so through the standard voting process

again, a supreme court decision made corporate donations unlimited -- are you saying voters should just bide their time until one of the justices dies off?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:20:46 2011 No.2145001 >>2144995 Maybe you should remove the dick so as to relieve the pressure, then.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:20:46 2011 No.2145003

>>2144995
if money is going to sway elections, people should have voted for campaign finance reform. once again, the current shitty system is their fault.

if you really believe that the people are able to overcome this kind of thing, the logical corollary of that belief is a rejection of democracy.

>>2144998
they have been lied to. in a democracy, it's their responsibility to realize that shit or do the research to figure out what's going on.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:22:46 2011 No.2145007 >>2145000 switch in time that saved nine, baby (to put my point more fully, the supreme court is ultimately responsive to the legislature and executive, which bodies are under the control of democratic power)

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:23:46 2011 No.2145010 >>2145003 again, you think your giving voters the benefit of the doubt is the intellectual high ground when in reality it's intellectually shallow and gullible. and name one piece of campaign finance reform that was ever put to a public vote

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:23:46 2011 No.2145012

>>2145003
>if you really believe that the people are able to overcome this kind of thing, the logical corollary of that belief is a rejection of democracy.

this should say unable, not able

sorry i made a typo yall, feel free to use this to discredit all my arguments

just want to point out, again, that my only disagreement here is that you think that the electorate has no responsibility for the current mess and i think it has the ultimate responsibility. i agree with you on most everything else.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:23:46 2011 No.2145013 >>2144998 Even if they have been, it was their responsibility not to, and it is their responsibility to bear the consequences of their voting.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:25:46 2011 No.2145017

>>2145010
if it's a sufficiently important issue - and according to people itt it's an issue of paramount importance - you use it as one of the prime factors in your choice of representatives. you primary out candidates who don't believe in it and you only vote for candidates who do. that is the way our representative democracy works.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:25:46 2011 No.2145018 >>2145013 >i got raped. it was my fault for wearing a skirt.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:26:46 2011 No.2145020 >>2145001 no sir pressure is the main key of the anal cannon platform

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:27:46 2011 No.2145021 >>2145017 so we should also be clairvoyant when certain candidates don't do what we say or don't vote the way we expect...which they do. often. and don't even tell me "well you vote them out" because at that point the damage is already done.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:27:46 2011 No.2145022 >>2145020 there wouldn't be any pressure without the funnel. if the puking whores forget to bring a funnel they'll just have to live with the consequences

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:28:46 2011 No.2145023 >>2145018 If voters are equally powerless and responsibility-less as rape victims, then surely democracy is a farce and should be abolished as fast as possible. I don't think you hold that view, though. So how about some fucking coherency?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:29:46 2011 No.2145026 >>2145023 how about this: democracy works when corporations aren't considered people and aren't allowed to give candidates money.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:30:46 2011 No.2145030

>>2145018
man i do not even want to touch that analogy and i consider it kind of offensive that you're comparing me to a rape apologist. fuck you.

>>2145021
you vote them out next election and hey presto you have a system that respects your views on campaign finance with a sizable campaign finance lobby in washington. and they can vote for new more restrictive campaign finance laws and supreme court justices who won't make decisions like citizens united.

i mean presumably this is your ideal solution here anyway, unless you're asking obama to grant campaign finance law by imperial fiat (seriously what is your solution here, if it doesn't involve something along these lines. are you arguing for a plebiscitary democracy here or what)

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:32:46 2011 No.2145033 >>2145030 your indignation is delicious

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:33:46 2011 No.2145034

>>2145026
>>2145026
How bout this: if that's the case it's still the electorate's fault for not demanding strong campaign finance law.

also, the issue isn't about giving campaigns money, its about corporate funding of independent political broadcasts. just to be precise here.

>>2145033
that's because i take rape seriously bro

just to reiterate once again here: i am in favor of campaign finance reform and the OWS protests, giving the electorate a free pass on our mistakes is bullshit and encourages us in a lax attitude.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:36:46 2011 No.2145041

this guy wants us to each have an army of researchers to adequately sniff out a given candidate's views, voting history and campaign donors before we vote.

listen, that just isn't practical. that's why we're supposed to have regulations in place to minimize the possibility that the system is being exploited.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:36:46 2011 No.2145043

>>2145026
First of all there is ample evidence against that.

Second, let's consider what corporations are: they are a group of people who choose to pool their money together for a common purpose.

Do you think that individuals should be able to donate to political causes? If yes, why do you believe they should lose that right when they are in groups? (This freedom of association line of argumentation is partly the basis of the Citizens United ruling btw). Also, how does that change anything, other than make it a bit more complicated to make the exact same donations?

Third, corporations are not the only special interests. There are gigantic groups of people (grouped up in different ways, some of which you arbitrarily choose to find acceptable or not) who try to sway the political process, so that the group may gain while the nation loses. Public choice theory is pretty good at describing the process by which this happens. What about them?

Fourth, without corporate personhood, corporations can no longer own property, sue or be sued, enter contracts, etc. This is obviously a problem. How would you solve it?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:37:46 2011 No.2145046 >>2145041 are you even reading what i'm saying i support those regulations whole-heartedly just don't give the electorate a free pass on abrogating their responsibilities

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:37:46 2011 No.2145047 >>2145034 this "people need to be punished for voting badly" thing is just straight up just-world fallacy dude

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:39:46 2011 No.2145051

>>2145041
Voting records are public and are scrutinized by a million different researchers already. Campaign promises of prominent politicians are tracked in detail. Donations are also public and scrutinized.

Even if such analysis did not already exist, you don't need them on an individual basis, and it would be trivial for the electorate to either group together and fund such an organization, or simply make sure it is voted into existence and be government funded.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:39:46 2011 No.2145052
File: 7 KB, 259x194, images.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2144630
>Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

>Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all.

>Demand four: Free college education.

>Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

What the fuck. Are these people serious? i thought they were just protesting against corporate personhood and monies in politics. These are solutions a child would give you if asked how they were to solve societal issues.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:40:46 2011 No.2145055 >>2145047 "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H L Mencken

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:40:46 2011 No.2145056 >>2145047 explain to me how i'm saying that thanks

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:41:46 2011 No.2145060 >>2145052 The only one that doesn't make sense is the second. There's nothing wrong with a GMI.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:41:46 2011 No.2145061 >>2145056 >giving the electorate a free pass on our mistakes is bullshit and encourages us in a lax attitude

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:42:46 2011 No.2145063 >>2145052 A French child, maybe?

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:44:46 2011 No.2145066

>>2145061
yeah that doesn't mean what you said it means, though

what i'm saying is that absolving the electorate of responsibility is bad because it is wrong, and also because people should take this shit seriously and understand the responsibilities of a citizenry.

i'm not saying that we shouldn't fix the problems facing us because we caused them. that would be intensely stupid. to say it for the fifth time, i'm in favor of the OWS protests and i'm in favor of campaign finance reform. the only thing i'm opposing here is this notion that the ultimately responsibility for the current political situation does not lie with the american electorate.

the responsibility for the problem is ours. it is also our responsibility to fix it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:45:46 2011 No.2145069 >>2145061 So you're saying that the electorate is completely free of responsibility regarding the consequences of the exercise of their power? That is complete bullshit, and I would love to hear what sort of ethical theory you use to support it.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:46:46 2011 No.2145070
File: 14 KB, 300x301, 1301158519394.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

Could someone explain to me in one sentence what this protest is about?

I've honestly watched hours worth of footage on the news and youtube and I still don't have the slightest clue what the protest's clear-cut objective is - too many people from too many sides screaming too many things.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:46:46 2011 No.2145071 >>2145066 how. do. you. fix. a. supreme. court. decision. though. are you saying wait it out or push through a constitutional amendment or what?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:46:46 2011 No.2145074 >>2145070 The system we have is fucked, and no one has any idea what we should replace it with.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:48:46 2011 No.2145075 >>2145071 >push through a constitutional amendment or what Obviously. If it was something people actually cared about it would be trivial to do.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:48:46 2011 No.2145076

individuals should be able to donate, with the present cap as is. those individuals should not be able to bundle their money and donate in blocks. this includes corps, lobbies and any other special interest groups.

people are not immortal, nor do they commonly wield such wealth and power. a corporation should be culpable for human rights violations, but should not be considered a person, but rather a non-person entity.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:48:46 2011 No.2145077 >>2145043 Still waiting for an answer on those points anon.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:49:46 2011 No.2145080 >people are not immortal lol Aaaaand I'm outta here.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:49:46 2011 No.2145081 >>2145077 He can't. He doesn't realize that the problem is one endemic to capitalist democracy.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:50:46 2011 No.2145083

>>2145071
udansfoasmfdaodnmfaosnfdaosdfasnfoaidfandfoandfa

I am not saying that it is their responsibility in the sense that they have not instantly fixed it.

I am saying it is their responsibility in the sense that they let it GET TO THIS POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE. The way I would have them fix is through using their democratic power as the citizenry. Presumably that's what you fucking want to, so we agree on that. The ONLY thing we seem to disagree on is that you don't think that the current fix we're in is the responsibility of the electorate. AS TO MEANS OF FIXING IT WE AGREE.

he said for the 27th time

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:50:46 2011 No.2145085

>>2145076
>individuals should be able to donate, with the present cap as is. those individuals should not be able to bundle their money and donate in blocks. this includes corps, lobbies and any other special interest groups.

OK, that seems to be a popular position. Now justify it. Preferably not from a consequentialist POV.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:51:46 2011 No.2145090 >>2145081 >endemic to ALL democracy

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:52:46 2011 No.2145092
File: 276 KB, 820x440, apeswr_2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

could someone explain this to me. I find it to be very vague. Doesn't the US government already do this? What's the point of this? would the government impose values onto individuals?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:52:46 2011 No.2145093 >>2145085 democracy is one vote per person, one donation per person. it is how this system works.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:53:46 2011 No.2145096 >>2145092 >Doesn't the US government already do this? Legal discrimination was outlawed years ago. This, I guess, would just be to make sure that it doesn't come back. >would the government impose values onto individuals? No?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:54:46 2011 No.2145097 >>2145093 It is a fact that that is not how the system works right now, and it is a democracy, so that argument is pretty bad.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:54:46 2011 No.2145099 >>2145092 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:55:46 2011 No.2145101

>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070
>>2145070

>please respond
>b-back that ass up

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:57:46 2011 No.2145105 >>2145052 Free education and minimum income are within our power and pretty good ideas.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 00:59:46 2011 No.2145111 >>2145105 Minimum income is probably not a bad idea. Minimum wage is a fucking horrible idea on the other hand, one which directly makes the worst off even worse off.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:01:46 2011 No.2145114 >>2145101 Mommy said I could be anything I wanted, but life is really tough and I don't want to work. Whaaaaaaa. Sorry I couldn't sum it up in a single sentence.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:02:46 2011 No.2145117 >>2145114 where do you work

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:03:46 2011 No.2145118 File: 12 KB, 524x310, Figure_1.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2145070 Society is grossly inequal and nobody is doing anything about it: let's get mad.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:04:46 2011 No.2145121 >>2145118 Because that's always helped things in the past.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:05:46 2011 No.2145123 >Society is grossly inequal and nobody is doing anything about it: let's get mad. Get mad? Let's get even. (In the Rawlsian / restributionist sense.)

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:05:46 2011 No.2145124 >>2145111 You know when people propose a minimum income they mean even for people who don't work right? If you don't like the minimum wage...

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:06:46 2011 No.2145127 >>2145111 So you're saying welfare is good but minimum wage is bad?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:06:46 2011 No.2145130 >>2145121 Well yes, it has. Not enough though, and not often enough.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:07:46 2011 No.2145134 File: 98 KB, 468x335, 20090507-factory-farm-chickens.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2145114 Out on the all American chicken farm. How about you?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:15:46 2011 No.2145154 >>2145105 Yeah, for half a generation maybe. Then it's welcome to thirdworldia.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:21:46 2011 No.2145170 >>2145123 In the Rawlsian sense we have a duty to go for laissez-faire and open borders. Of course in your (and pretty much everybody's in the West), people in other countries are never accounted for in the Rawlsian calculations...

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:22:46 2011 No.2145176

>>2145124
>>2145127
Yes. The minimum wage bans people with low wages from working. Minimum income does have some problems with perverse incentives, but solves a ton of other shit. Right-wing libertarian parties in Europe tend to be for a minimum income, for example...that's how many issues it solves.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:23:46 2011 No.2145178

>>2145111
Why not just raise the average minimum wage to the average cost of living? I'm sure there would be a lot of people who just wouldn't work most of the people browsing 4chan, including myself if we all were paid for nothing. that demand wasn't well thought out or they're really liberalnazisocialistcommie fucktards.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:24:46 2011 No.2145182 >>2145178 Because then we would be even more dependent on fictional capital than ever.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:26:11 2011 No.2145190 [DELETED]

File: 13 KB, 423x336, mclovin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

White guy in the 10% going for a finance degree here. I initially agreed with Occupy with their anger against the corrupt banks and corporations. Somehow it turned into a "We hate the rich white males are privileged and have advantages!". Now it's just a bunch of hipsters and lazy bums not willing to work and work **SMART**. They're really about to fuck this country up, essentially turning it into a communist society, with no incentive to work hard for your shit. If anything, they should be protesting washington.

As for you, occupy: A lot of the rich you hate busted their balls and played their cards smart to get where they are, and now you're trying to rip it away from them? The very people who earned their living in america? Fuck you, entitled racist shits. Should've researched the marketability of your degree before you went out for a $50k+ loan. Quit being delusional, earn your goddamn keep!

>That feel when the family has our wealth oversees away from you lazy fuckers trying to rob us.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:28:46 2011 No.2145194 >>2145190 in what alternate universe is finance "working hard"? you gonna get carpal tunnel from spamming the sell button on etrade?

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:29:46 2011 No.2145196

>>2145178
Because raising the minimum wage doesn't mean that low wage people's wages go up, it means they're fired. The minimum wage has two effects: 1. it leads to some deadweight losses and 2. it directly fucks over the poorest people by denying them the possibility of working.

The minimum wage is fucking evil.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:29:46 2011 No.2145198 >>2145194 He's assuming that by making other people be productive for him, their work will rub off on him. Some kind of labor-diffusion.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:30:46 2011 No.2145201

>>2145052
>Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
Are they fucking retarded?

>Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all.
Are they fucking retarded?

>Demand four: Free college education.
I actually agree with this one, AS LONG AS we guide the education of anyone getting it free so that said person can do something productive when they graduate, stuff that's technical or scientific. If people want to learn women's studies, they can do that on their own dime.

>Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
So would this involve affirmative action suddenly becoming unconstitutional, or would that LOL NOT COUNT JUST 'CAUSE LOL?

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:31:46 2011 No.2145204

Something that I am wondering about is this: why are they not trying to do something political about this?

I can understand a certain amount of anger towards financial issues but to sit outside the center of a fundamentally amoral system and say "look at me" does not seem like a good use of time and effort. Shouldn't they be in DC and getting the attention of shameless sycophants that will nominally cater to them in return for votes?

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:32:46 2011 No.2145206
File: 209 KB, 781x781, 1315651400202.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2145194
Working smart, motherfucker. How's the Liberal Arts degree working out for both of you?

Already got the connections, all I need is the degree. Will be driving a mercedes first year on the job while you're stuck at Burgerking crying, "Shame, shame!". You only put this upon yourself bud.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:32:46 2011 No.2145209

>>2145190
As does everyone with a brain and any considerable assets. That's the tragicomic side of this--if anything actually did come of this and serious legal moves were made to bring harder taxes down on the wealthy, a good portion of them would just leave and take their cash with them. Or not even really leave--perpetual traveler citizenships are where it's at. That's not even counting stuff like captive insurance companies and nonprofit moneysinks.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:33:46 2011 No.2145211 >>2145204 the institutionalization of the protest by the left

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:34:46 2011 No.2145212

>>2145092
>could someone explain this to me. I find it to be very vague. Doesn't the US government already do this? What's the point of this? would the government impose values onto individuals?
This is coming from people who think "equality" is literally forcing white men to go to the back of the line. It would probably more or less just be more racist bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:36:46 2011 No.2145218 >>2145196 Only after a certain point. In this country that is true but without some sort of bottom many companies would lower the wage even when the costs can easily fit within their profit margins.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:38:46 2011 No.2145224 >>2145218 Why do you think so many jobs are outsourced these days? Government taxing the fuck out of businesses . You know, the job creators.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:39:46 2011 No.2145225

>>2144630
>>2144648
>>2145052

Retards detected.

>"(User Submitted)" in title
>Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands.
>they even used bold

Also, that site has published a lot of questionable things. This is the General Assembly:
http://nycga.cc/

And this is their Declaration:
http://nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/

Shit, I thought /lit/ would be able to read.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:44:46 2011 No.2145246

>>2145190
FUCK U U SON OF A BITCH WHY DOES A GODDAMN PERSON NEED ENOUGH MONEY TO LAST HIM 20 GOD DAMN LIFE TIMES OVER. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE BORN AROUND THE WORLD AND HAVE NO GOD DAMN CONCEPT OF MOENY TECHNOLOGY, MASS PRODUCED FOOD OR WESTERN CULTURE WHERE STARVING IS MISSING YOUR FUCKING LUNCH, OR BEING A BLOCK AWAY FROM THE NEXT MCDONALDS. THERE'S NO REASON FOR RICH MOTHERUFCKERS TO SPEND SO MUCH MONEY ON SUCH INCONCEQUENTIAL DECADENT SHIT WHEN MOST OF THE WORLD DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A 1/100TH OF THE CHANCE TO BE A BILLIONAIRE/MILLIONIARE OR ANY WEALTH, BEACUSE OF THINGS COMPLETELY OUT OF THEIR CONTROL. THERE IS NO REASON FOR A PERSON TO HAVE SO MUCH MONEY THEY CAN PAVE A RAOD TO THE FUCKING MOON WITH IT.

i am the 99%

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:50:46 2011 No.2145261
File: 85 KB, 600x600, 1315658708963.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2145246
Alright, great. Here's what you should do: How about you give up your house or apartment so that 5 homeless people can share all of your belongings with you. They obviously need a home more than you do. After this, you must split your income 5 ways to help support your new roomates so they can have a better living. After all, this is the "What's yours is mine." mentality, right?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:51:46 2011 No.2145262 File: 102 KB, 900x506, moonroad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2145246 Hey, some of us have big dreams.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:51:46 2011 No.2145263 >>2145224 I thought it was more due to incredibly cheap wages + lack of protections for workers

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:52:46 2011 No.2145266
File: 833 KB, 170x104, 1269503902807.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

Hold on one moment, please.

Isn't it so that:

>capitalism is a system that thrives on taking more than your share

?

And you all expected a fair game to be played on these ground rules?

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:53:46 2011 No.2145269

>>2145209

This is what so many idiots keep on saying with no proof to back it up.

Tax the rich and they'll just leave huur duur!!

They might invest more overseas but they won't leave, America is the engine of world growth and will remain that way for decades no matter what a few rich people do.

The majority of US assets are large knowledge base companies and the rest are small businesses and local (state) economies. Even the banks wouldn't leave because we have the most active financial sector in the world and, AGAIN, they. won't. leave.

People have been saying stuff like that since before Ayn Rand and her crazy ass ideas.

Even that guy a few posts back talking about his rich family keeping their money overseas as a tax dodge isn't going to have that option much longer with the loopholes being closed in the big budget deal....

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:54:46 2011 No.2145271 >>2145261 Still waiting on an answer for this. If you don't agree, then why should I share my hard-earned money with you?

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:56:46 2011 No.2145276

>>2145271
because it makes more sense to provide them housing by taking from someone with unimaginable levels of wealth, instead of someone just keeping his head over water.

instead of forcing some dude to invite 5 guys into his apartment, let's take somebody's spare mansion

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:57:46 2011 No.2145278

>>2145261

I think his point wasn't
>poor people should give up all their shit to poorer people so the lower classes are all on an equal but scraping-by lifestyle
but more
>no one should own far far more than they could ever possibly use, when they could take the vast majority of their wealth, improve millions of lives, and still be super wealthy and living the most comfortable lives possible

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 01:59:46 2011 No.2145284

>>2145276
Sure, we can use the spare mansion, but only if you're willing to spare room for 5 other individuals and carpool them to work. It's only fair, these people are much more poor than you. It's only fair, man. You can't just take take take, you got to give too. You're one rich man compared to these poor fellows starving on the street.

>>2145278
Well, not everyone can be winners. What incentive would there be to work hard if anyone knows they'll be reseive the same rewards as someone too lazy and not pulling their weight?

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:00:46 2011 No.2145287

>>2145269
>they. won't. leave.
Yeah, keep chanting that to yourself. The neat thing is, they don't even have to leave. One of the conveniences of globalism is getting to pay taxes wherever you want, provided you have the assets and legal knowledge.

Most of the big companies have already moved 90% of their production (Apple had a total of 50 production workers in the US at Jobs' death), and most low-end "knowledge based" jobs are quickly getting exported as well.

Not saying they shouldn't pay more than they do--they should. But globalism is a two way sword that nobody but the rich can dodge.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:11:46 2011 No.2145306

>>2145225
>They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

So giving work to poor as fuck people in third world countries is bad? Jesus these people aren't just racist hippie idiots, they're nationalistic hatemongers.

>They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

...and conspiracy nuts.

>They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

Yup.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:17:46 2011 No.2145315

>>2145284
>Well, not everyone can be winners. What incentive would there be to work hard if anyone knows they'll be reseive the same rewards as someone too lazy and not pulling their weight?

Things like iPhones and nice cars and the ability to travel. Just because we live under a system which relies on a constant pool of unemployment to regulate labor and is innately unequal in the availability of opportunities doesn't mean you should look at people sleeping in the street and starving around the world and go, "Haha, I win!"

Provide the means (not just welfare, but jobs -- many corporations massively cutting back on jobs to raise profits and CEO bonuses) for people to live decent lives, and they can do more with their lives! They can have the comfort and time to learn a trade, or maybe if public education wasn't so shit in so many places more people would feel competent enough to pursue becoming engineers and doctors and scientists.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:21:46 2011 No.2145326 So what is the point of their movement? Are they wanting to make politicians run on equal funding? That might be interesting... I don't know shit about this really.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:27:46 2011 No.2145336

>>2145306
>So giving work to poor as fuck people in third world countries is bad? Jesus these people aren't just racist hippie idiots, they're nationalistic hatemongers.

Because having an economy dependent on other nations thinking of you as good cheap labor is an ideal, stable situation. You act as if outsourcing is an act of charity. Also, note the full statement to understand their complaint (you even included this information in your quoting!). They're playing on the dispensable nature of most jobs to avoid offering fair pay, fair treatment, or any sort of worker assistance.

And you act like oil companies and their friends (other companies + government officials) don't have totally selfish interests in trying to maintain the dominancy of oil. Developing new forms of energy isn't just an environmental good, but it'd create many jobs. The only problem is the wealthy who have too big of an investment in the oil. You can't monopolize the sun.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:34:46 2011 No.2145340

ITT: people rehashing bottom tier common knowledge arguments and get nowhere, people looking to have informed discussion leave thread early. Trolls trolling trolls, some hipsters, some occupy people, and some mad folk.

Why does it always descend to this /lit/?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:35:46 2011 No.2145341 >>2144861 I think they just wanted to put a funnel into an asshole, and a 2nd whore pukes into it.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:35:46 2011 No.2145345
File: 775 KB, 320x240, 1317544009029.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2145315

So instead of working your ass off just to survive, you work your ass off to own flash cars and shiny gadgets?

And those who don't work get to live a no-frills comfortable life?

Not sure what I think of that, but it seems like an innate human motivation to want to be "above most other people", and I think that drive will keep enough people working anyway.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:36:46 2011 No.2145346 >>2145326 read a newspaper you slug

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:39:46 2011 No.2145353

>>2145336
>Because having an economy dependent on other nations thinking of you as good cheap labor is an ideal, stable situation.

It's called trade, and yes interdependence of nation's economies is an extremely good thing because it prevents wars. I never said outsourcing is charity, I said it gives poor as fuck people jobs. It does. It does more good than bad if you're an egalitarian or utilitarian, and I don't see why anyone would be at these protests if they were not of those two.

The Wealthy are not a group, and if they were, they would not be dependent on oil to maintain that status. And yes, solar energy can be easily monopolized (much more easily than oil production in fact, which is a cutthroat competitive field).

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:39:46 2011 No.2145354 >>2145346 Ok but I think I'd trust anons on this more. It seems like a 4chan movement. And douche thanks for the help and the insult.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:55:46 2011 No.2145377

1. If you work hard, and become successful, it does not necessarily mean you are successful because you worked hard, just as if you are tall with long hair it doesn’t mean you would be a midget if you were bald.

2. “Fortune” is a word for having a lot of money and for having a lot of luck, but that does not mean the word has two definitions.

3. Money is like a child—rarely unaccompanied. When it disappears, look to those who were supposed to be keeping an eye on it while you were at the grocery store. You might also look for someone who has a lot of extra children sitting around, with long, suspicious explanations for how they got there.

4. People who say money doesn’t matter are like people who say cake doesn’t matter—it’s probably because they’ve already had a few slices.

5. There may not be a reason to share your cake. It is, after all, yours. You probably baked it yourself, in an oven of your own construction with ingredients you harvested yourself. It may be possible to keep your entire cake while explaining to any nearby hungry people just how reasonable you are.

6. Nobody wants to fall into a safety net, because it means the structure in which they’ve been living is in a state of collapse and they have no choice but to tumble downwards. However, it beats the alternative.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:56:46 2011 No.2145378

7. Someone feeling wronged is like someone feeling thirsty. Don’t tell them they aren’t. Sit with them and have a drink.

8. Don’t ask yourself if something is fair. Ask someone else—a stranger in the street, for example.

9. People gathering in the streets feeling wronged tend to be loud, as it is difficult to make oneself heard on the other side of an impressive edifice.

10. It is not always the job of people shouting outside impressive buildings to solve problems. It is often the job of the people inside, who have paper, pens, desks, and an impressive view.

11. Historically, a story about people inside impressive buildings ignoring or even taunting people standing outside shouting at them turns out to be a story with an unhappy ending.

12. If you have a large crowd shouting outside your building, there might not be room for a safety net if you’re the one tumbling down when it collapses.

13. 99 percent is a very large percentage. For instance, easily 99 percent of people want a roof over their heads, food on their tables, and the occasional slice of cake for dessert. Surely an arrangement can be made with that niggling 1 percent who disagree.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:57:46 2011 No.2145379 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SaZF4FJ2eUA http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=l3Y9CARUwio#!

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 02:57:46 2011 No.2145380

>>2145353
>It's called trade, and yes interdependence of nation's economies is an extremely good thing because it prevents wars.

Hmm thanks for that, I will take your opinions in mind person from 1913 who thinks that Germany and France will never go to war because their economies are too closely entwined

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:08:46 2011 No.2145395 File: 162 KB, 800x533, TheLastBastion.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2145261 >Implying I don't live in this. Nigga, please. I classify as homeless.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:09:46 2011 No.2145398

>>2145345
Well, the economy runs on the labor of the masses, so you can't just opt not to ever work and be given an apartment and all the food you could want, but with people working we have the resources to provide much more food, housing, and medical care than we currently do to those in need.

Of course, it's important to keep developing and making it so that people can work (which most people want to do, it's just increasingly not an option for everyone).

And it's not just a matter of luxury items as the incentive to work. People shouldn't be out in the cold, starving, and dying of untreated yet treatable diseases just because we found a way to not have to pay them to work, but there are very basic advantages to actually working. Want to live in a nice apartment or house all to yourself / your family and be able to afford nice food and snacks and take nice vacations? Get a job.

>>2145353
Read about stuff like the corruption of the IMF if you think labor installations and trade systems with third-world nations are beneficial to the people. This is a pretty good documentary that deals with one instance of that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWPkOUxxm4M

>>2145326
Sorry, Anon, it's a bit complicated to just sum up in a post. As to election funds, that is one problem. There's no agreed-upon solution as to how to combat this (though many different ideas have been going around for years). But it is certainly an issue that elections in the US generally equal out to finance wars and the candidate who dumps more money into his campaign wins.

If I recall some good comprehensive sources of info I'll post them here, but its an open movement so you're best bet is to read around, watch some videos, maybe even head down to a local occupation and check out a General Assembly or something. Here's one pretty article to start with:
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:12:46 2011 No.2145405 >>2145398 >Read about stuff like the corruption of the IMF if you think labor installations and trade systems with third-world nations are beneficial to the people. Look at Chine if you think they are not.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:17:46 2011 No.2145414
File: 422 KB, 1014x895, China Strong.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2145395
You live in a shack in a public park? That is homelessness, yes.

>>2145405
I hope you're not citing the working conditions of China as ideal. And just because one large nation ended up gaining a good deal of global power through trade doesn't mean the system isn't widely exploitative and problematic. Most countries are not in good positions.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:25:46 2011 No.2145426 File: 75 KB, 750x750, thatfeel.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUHSuH2wRyo How does this make you feel?

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:31:46 2011 No.2145439

So much bullshit. Seriously, I firmly believe that such practices of favoring 'minorities' (including women) are one of the biggest dangers to anything like equality evolving. If jobs are given to women, gays and ethnic minorities with equal qualifications instead of white male heteros in a regular basis, that might create a lot of resentment in those non-gay white males that do not get the jobs although they are just as qualified, and even those of them that actually do get the jobs will have the feeling that they had to fight harder than the women, gays and ethnic people who form their peers at work and will thus secretly feel superior. Way to advance equality, retards!

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:33:46 2011 No.2145440

>>2145426

Mostly indifferent, though I dislike the fetishization of brand names in a competition to physically assert financial and social dominance. Expensive cars is one of the most reasonable aspects of this, though, as the designing and engineering involved is pretty impressive. Things like handbags which cost thousands of dollars are a much bigger issue.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:40:46 2011 No.2145449

>>2145439

I agree, though I want to present one argument for diversifying (unrelated to this OWS stack system) that seemed pretty fair. It's important for women and minorities to succeed and get into positions such that they can serve as examples to following generations. If you're black or asian or latino or a woman and you look at a field with good prospects and it's all just white males (whether by privilege or chance) it's discouraging. And another part, which is related to this, is that having these "traditionally marginalized groups" speak allows one to get a diversity of viewpoints and counteracts discriminatory biases built into our normal way of thinking. I haven't seen anything with OWS where people have been outwardly denied the right to talk in such a fashion. Like at one talk I went to, a few men spoke first, so one of the moderators asked if any women would like to give input.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:43:46 2011 No.2145451

>>2145439
Play nice. What goes around comes around. When the Chinese and Indians own America, hopefully they will impliment affirmative action policies to employ a few white males, even if they are underqualified and can only read and write at an 8th grade level.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:43:46 2011 No.2145453 >>2145449 Blah blah blah blah blah This thead is solo boooooorinnngg!

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:45:46 2011 No.2145454 I have found a solution to inequality. Special glasses that make you perceive everyone as a white male.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:49:46 2011 No.2145459 >>2145453 You know what's not boring? It starts with inserting funnels into anuses.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:49:46 2011 No.2145460 >>2145453 1/Ctrl+F 2/"Anal Cannon" 3/???? 4/Profit!

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:50:46 2011 No.2145461 >>2145459 >>2145460 ANAL CANNON MIND

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:50:46 2011 No.2145462
File: 8 KB, 307x62, ficial.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

Let me know if I'm wrong here but,

wouldn't the ideal situation for equality be that everyone is treated as just a "person"?

Just a brain that happens to inhabit a body that has a certain shape and color?

Isn't it wrong to say that if a lot of men have been allowed to do something, some women should do it too for equal measure?

That's just my ficial humnif anyway.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:52:46 2011 No.2145464

>>2145459
You mean like this one time where this guy just came in and started placing a funnel into an asshole and the 2nd whore pukes into it? And after the ass is filled with puke, a cock then fucks it until the pressure is all built up? And after the asshole has been fucked hard enough, the cock is pulled out and the anal cannon explodes? And to top it all off, ass to mouth occurs, with both ladies licking off the fresh mix of vomit and ass for the ultimate anal dessert?
Is that what you mean?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:53:46 2011 No.2145465 >>2145462 Women can have children. Men are inferior.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:55:46 2011 No.2145470 >>2145464 Something like that, yeah. But instead of a funnel, it's trickle-down economics.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:56:46 2011 No.2145474 >>2145465 >Implying relationships are better when you have children as opposed to relationships without them. Nothing calcifies lover faster than a pregnancy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:58:46 2011 No.2145477 >>2145465 Children can be made without women

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 03:59:46 2011 No.2145478 >>2145474 Pshaw, yeah, for the man. When they have to support a baby, their life is over. Women, on the other hand, have a live Cabage Patch doll to play with. Women: 1 Men: 0

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 04:02:46 2011 No.2145483 >>2145477 They aren't children if that happens.

>>	Vlad the Implyier Tue Oct 18 08:30:11 2011 No.2145789 ctrl+f: queue >>mfw no one has mentioned that the 'progressive stack' is actually a queue

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 08:43:46 2011 No.2145808 >>2144732 >hat applies to gypsies: we can pass for being white. HAHAHAHA HA HAHAH AHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Actual "white" european here. NOPE.avi.mp4.exe

>>	Vlad the Implyier Tue Oct 18 08:46:46 2011 No.2145817 >>2145808 There are different kinds of gypsies, some look less caucasian than others.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 08:54:46 2011 No.2145827

>>2145817
Some have a funnel placed into an asshole and the 2nd whore pukes into it. After the ass is filled with puke, a cock then fucks it until the pressure is all built up. After the Asshole has been fucked hard enough, the cock is pulled out and the Anal cannon explodes! To top it all off, ass to mouth occurs, with both ladies licking off the fresh mix of vomit and ass for the ultimate caucasian look!

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 09:09:46 2011 No.2145834 >>2145817 A brown is a brown. Unless they are mixed (Nobody mixes with gypsies), they aren't going to pass as a "white". I have a feeling you are mixed yourself. No hard feelings, gypsie.

>>	Vlad the Implyier Tue Oct 18 09:13:46 2011 No.2145839 >>2145834 I have a feeling you are 0/10.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 09:14:46 2011 No.2145840 >>2145789 lmao

>>	The Anal Cannon Girl Tue Oct 18 09:40:46 2011 No.2145841 I wish the anal cannon guy makes me laugh so hard I shoot semen through my nose.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 09:40:46 2011 No.2145842 >>2145839 Way to refute my statement and pull the troll card. Just what I'd expect from a gypsie. Try again.

>>	Vlad the Implyier Tue Oct 18 09:46:46 2011 No.2145853 >>2145842 There is nothing to refute there, really.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 09:47:46 2011 No.2145854 >>2145853 >Unless they are mixed (Nobody mixes with gypsies), they aren't going to pass as a "white"

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 09:47:46 2011 No.2145855 >>2145842 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKsw6xaw9n0

>>	The Anal Cannon Girl Tue Oct 18 09:48:46 2011 No.2145856 He's so dreamy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 10:00:46 2011 No.2145861 >>2145855 Get back to /mu/, hipster scum. You're next on the list.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Tue Oct 18 10:09:46 2011 No.2145864 File: 82 KB, 610x785, Copy of getadamnjob.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 10:23:46 2011 No.2145869 File: 428 KB, 741x613, riot_2011_looterscum.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2145864

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 10:24:46 2011 No.2145870 >>2145869 is this a troll? or is somebody actually that fucking stupid?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 10:26:46 2011 No.2145871 My view of protests of any sort? The chickens coming home to roost, basically. Also do we need a thread on OWS everyday? You guys post this shit on /sci/ too.. Seriously, go to a message board.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 18 10:29:46 2011 No.2145873 >>2145861 oh sorry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRuon9bV5-I

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 10:51:46 2011 No.2145918

I support that they want the financial corporations who were mostly to blame for the financial mess to be held accountable and that they want to remove corporate influence from government. But I don't like that they've sought to emulate hippies rather than the well-dressed and respectable men and women of the civil rights movement. Unfortunately, image is very important to a lot of people and by trying to be the hippies of today, they have alienated a lot of potential supporters.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 10:53:46 2011 No.2145921

I think the masses are misguided and always scapegoat a cabal of people without understanding the big picture.

Just a few years ago these same idiots were raising their pitchforks because they thought the Neoconservatives were the root of all evil, now they think it's the investment bankers, in Nazi Germany it was the Jews (Fuck Godwin).

When I hear these protestors say that the banks are evil and all we need to do to fix everything is tax them more and spend more I feel the same revulsion that occurs when I see a pregnant woman smoking.

Unless these people take to Washington and rally for a dramatic change in government that causes representatives to be more accountable to the people voting for them - you're never going to receive the same benefits that the top 1% gain and you'll scapegoat another minority. How about fast food CEOs? YEAH, those greedy fast food CEOs, fuck them. FUCK THEM.

Anonymous Tue Oct 18 11:04:46 2011 No.2145936
File: 147 KB, 444x600, presidential.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>>2144583
The participants are quite vocal about their opposition to the capitalism, which resigns the movement to being a significantly of a partisan nature, which wouldn't be a big deal if preparation for a major election season wasn't afoot.

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]