/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21440565]

Why did Guenon choose to become a Sufi over other traditions like Vedanta, Christianity or other esoteric schools?

[Anonymous No.21440578]

Christianity has no esoteric orders and Vedanta needs no explanation

[Anonymous No.21440594]

Real question, how do I become a sufi as a westerner with 0 knowledge on Arabic?

[Anonymous No.21440612]

>>21440594
will never happen.

[Anonymous No.21440624]

>>21440612
Why not?

[Anonymous No.21440645]

>>21440624
larp

[Anonymous No.21440658]

>>21440565
Because Sufism has always been and will forever be the meme form of Islam for undisciplined, seeker westoids

[Anonymous No.21440668]

>Vedanta
first choice but the eternal anglo denied him a visa to settle in India
>Christianity
initiatically dead

[Anonymous No.21440680]

>>21440668
Not gonna lie, for some reason Sufism seems much more mystical than Vedanta, dont know why. Apparently theres a belief that many of the esoteric orders in the West like Freemasonry were based on sufi orders but this might be complete bullshit I guess

[Anonymous No.21440936]

>>21440565
Probably because the Arab Mediterranean had an organised system of pederasty and male brothels that many European intellectuals engaged in, like Keynes.

[Anonymous No.21441023]

>>21440565
>>21440578
>>21440658
>>21440680
The addendum of cross off the modern world displayed his personal correspondences specifically talking about those things. They mention an esoteric christian order he was initiated to and tried to bring people in it, however he had an argument with the master of the lodge over some of his works minimizing Jesus' centrality in religion (in all truth they got butthurt that he kept praising Hinduism over christianity).
On why he didn't chose Hinduism, it's mostly related to 3 things : first, on birth, as a Frenchman he wasn't related to any caste, and it was something of a problematic when treating how he would insert into hindu society. Second, he "betrayed" his hindu master by revealing the secrets of his initiation in "the king of the world", and thus lost all contact with him. Third, he tried to go to india to look further into it but got his visa denied by the british. It is said that he was introduced to sufism by a swedish painter on the boat going to Egypt, so he wouldn't have moved of there anyway.

Sufism probably also has some specificities that probably convinced him into staying, and it probably had something to do with its laxism or "tolerance" over the beliefs you could endorse in it. To him, it was just another exoteric version of the primordial tradition anyway

[Anonymous No.21441083]

>>21440578
What makes you say that?

[Anonymous No.21441117]

>>21441083
He's retarded.

[Anonymous No.21441284]

>>21440680
Vedanta isn't esoteric, sufism is esoteric, esoteric hinduism is primarily tantra and yoga, and perhaps the whole commentarial tradition that all the dharmic religions got going can also be secretive/esoteric at times, some commentaries are known to have been kept secret on purpose. You also have the hundreds of non-canonical upanishads.

[Anonymous No.21442018]

>>21441117
no

[Anonymous No.21442073]

>>21440680
> for some reason Sufism seems much more mystical than Vedanta
In the sense that Guenon recognizes ‘metaphysics’ and mysticism to be different, this is correct.

[Anonymous No.21442113]

>>21441023
> and it was something of a problematic when treating how he would insert into hindu society
It would be problematic if he tried to larp as a Brahmin and perform Vedic rituals, but it would have been perfectly acceptable and not out of the ordinary to receive an initiation into one of the schools that don’t care about caste etc when admitting people, typically Shaiva and Shaktist schools that base themselves in the Agamas/Tantras.

[Anonymous No.21442269]

>>21441284
>Vedanta isn't esoteric
There isn’t a clear-cut distinction as perhaps found in Abrahamic religions, but in Shankara’s writings he says all the same stuff about how the full details of what he is talking about should only be revealed to those who are properly qualified. Advaitin monks traditionally don’t provide the same instructions to laypeople that they provide to other initiated monks. This fits the basic definition of esoteric.

Even Ramanuja’s devotionalistic Vedanta contains esoteric tendencies, insofar as Ramanuja in his Gita Bhaysa admits more or less that agency is not intrinsic to the Self, but is only due to its contact with the gunas, but that karma-yoga, which presupposes our agency, should still be performed by sannyasins or monks, lest common people give it up. That is to say, he implicitly admits that the Advaita approach to this issue (that the non-agency of the Self means that the illuminated sannyasin can give up works) is a logical and a coherent conclusion, but he advocates nevertheless that sannyasin spend their time engaging in something that is contrary to this (karma-yoga) purely for the sake of the spiritual well-being of others, so that they wont get the wrong idea, so their ideas of everyone being an agent who acts and receives the fruits of those acts will not be disturbed.

[Anonymous No.21443712]

>>21440565
>Guenon
I don't know who that is or why I should care about him.

[Anonymous No.21444144]

>>21440594
It probably involves converting to Islam in the first place, then reading and understanding all the other stuff written by actual Sufi Mystics and practitioners (Rumi, Al Ghazali, Abdul Qadir Jilani, etc)

[Anonymous No.21444202]

>>21440565
It's the most well developed and living tradition of Neo-Platonism that is also the most open to pedestry.

[Anonymous No.21444218]

>>21444202
Neoplatonism is Advaita Vedanta?

[Anonymous No.21444232]

>>21444202
There is no evidence to suggest that Guenon was gay and there is quite a good deal of evidence that he wasn’t

>>21444218
I think he meant Sufism is Neoplatonic, which is arguably mostly only true of certain aspects of the cosmology of certain Sufis, other Sufis have very little to do with it.

[Anonymous No.21444796]

Surprising as it may sound (because of how — forgive me for saying this — straitjacketed, fundamentalist, dogmatic and literalist Muslims can be — just as Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and pretty much all the rest of humanity can also be, note, so don’t accuse me of bigotry), Sufism is one of the most well-developed mystical traditions of the world, with a long history of esotericism, the formation of initiatory orders, and even a serious study of comparative religion and interaction with other religions in its long, complex history, which has included in its ranks thought along the line of the “Traditionalists” for centuries, who sometimes more covertly, sometimes more explicitly believed in a primordial unity of all religions, and in Sufism as the self-conscious unification of oneself with this mystical core at the heart of all authentic religions.

Think about the conquest by Islam of vast swathes of the Middle East, expansion into Central Asia, into Northern Africa, its spread through the Iberian Peninsula and Muslim communities being established in Spain, as well as, later, some of Eastern Europe and the Balkans through the Ottoman Turkish empire. This privileged geographical position made them interact with many and wide-ranging cultures, along with their inheritance of Greek philosophy (and scientific writings, literature, etc., as well as the Hermetic writings) they gained by conquest and set to work translating into Arabic and other Middle Eastern languages, giving the impetus for the Islamic Golden Age.

>The early Caliphs had possessed themselves of more than millions of square miles, uncounted riches, and the political supremacy of the known world of the middle ages. The centers of learning of the ancients, and particularly the traditional schools of mystical teaching, had almost all fallen into their hands. In Africa, the communities of Egypt, including Alexandria; and farther west, Carthage, where St. Augustine had studied and preached esoteric, pre-Christian doctrines. Palestine and Syria, the homes of secret traditions; Central Asia, where the Buddhists were most firmly entrenched; and northwest India with its venerable background of mysticism and experiential religion — all were within the empire of Islam.

>To these centers travelled the Arab mystics, anciently known as the Near Ones (muqarribun), who believed that essentially there was a unity among the inner teachings of all faiths. Like John the Baptist, they wore camels’ wool, and may have been known as Sufis (People of Wool), though not for this reason alone. As a result of these contacts with the Hanifs, each one of the ancient centers of secret teaching became a Sufi stronghold. The gap between the secret lore and practice of Christians, Zoroastrians, Hebrews, Hindus, Buddhists, and the rest had been bridged.

[Anonymous No.21444856]

>>21444796
>This process, the confluence of essences, has never been grasped by non-Sufis as a reality, because such observers find it impossible to realize that the Sufi sees and contacts the Sufic stream in every culture, as a bee will suck from many flowers without becoming a flower. Even the Sufic usages of “confluence” terminology to denote this function has not penetrated far. [11]

[This footnote 11 then refers one to an annotation at the end of the book entitled “CONFLUENCE”, which reads thus:

“Just as students of comparative religion have noted similarities in the externals and doctrines of many faiths, in mysticism Sufism has continually stressed the essential identity of the stream of transmission of inner knowledge. In the East the Mogul prince Dara Shikoh wrote the Confluence of the Two Seas, stressing the meeting between Sufism and early Hindu mysticism. The Rosicrucians in the West adopted almost literally the teaching of the Spanish illuminist Sufis in claiming an unbroken succession of inner teaching, in which they included ‘Hermes.’ ... Count Michael Maier in 1617 wrote Symbola Aurea Mensae Duodecimal Nationum (Contributions of Twelve Nations to the Golden Table), in which he showed that the Sufic tradition of a succession of teachers was still being maintained. Among the alchemical teachers were several whom the Sufis also recognize, including Westerners who had studied Saracen lore. They are: Hermes of Egypt, Mary the Hebrew, Democritus of Greece, Morienus of Rome, Avicenna (Ibn Sina) of Arabia, Albertus Magnus of Germany, Arnold of Villaneuve of France, Thomas Aquinas of Italy, Raymond Lully of Spain, Roger Bacon of England, Melchior Cibiensis of Hungary, and Anonymus Sarmata (Michael Sendivogius) of Poland. All Western alchemy, of course, is attributed by tradition to Geber (Jabir Ibn el-Hayyan) the Sufi.”

The text we were extracting then continues thus:]

>Sufi mysticism differs tremendously from other cults claiming to be mystical. Formal religion is for the Sufi merely a shell, though a genuine one, which fulfills a function. When the human consciousness has penetrated beyond this social framework, the Sufi understands the real meaning of religion. The mystics of other persuasions do not think in this manner at all. They may transcend outer religious forms, but they do not emphasize the fact that outer religion is only a prelude to special experience. Most ecstatics remain attached to a rapturous symbolization of some concept derived from their religion. The Sufi uses religion and psychology to pass beyond all this. Having done so, he “returns to the world,” to guide others on their way.

[Anonymous No.21445043]

>>21444856
A note about the bee/flower/honey analogy (one which also turns up sometimes in Sufi folk tales and teaching stories, if not identically then in a similar form): the Sufi here is the bee. Authentic world religions are the “flowers”. The Sufi symbolically extracts nectar from the flowers, but without themselves “becoming the flower”. They study the wisdom and revelations in other religions without themselves forsaking Sufism.

They claim that there is a “Sufism” in any (at least partially) authentic religion, even if it has been veiled by the ages, narrow-mindedness, historical and sociological decay, and is not called and recognized by that name as such. Hence, a Sufic core that could be found in Judaism, a Sufic core in Christianity, in Hinduism, and so forth. As the Qur’an says, “Every nation had a Warner.” Muhammad is not considered as someone bringing an entirely new revelation, never before heard of, but rather as someone who received revelation from the same God of Moses and Jesus, and various other patriarchs and prophets, and was reaffirming and more completely and perfectly expressing this timeless revelation in the form of the Qur’an.

In keeping with the Traditionalists’ assertion of the decay of many religions from their authentic roots, and the progressive veiling of the esoteric truths of religion by exoterism propagated for the masses, Sufism, likewise, holds that traditions like Judaism and Christianity are increasingly “dead” or defunct religions, corrupted relics of former authentic revelations, even if there is some wisdom or truth to be found in them in an often indirect, scattered, degraded form.

Fascinatingly enough, much of the Western esoteric movement and secret societies which fascinate us (the Knights Templar, the Rosicrucians, Masonry, the Kabbalah) can plausibly be tied to Sufic influence as well. Paradoxically, it was the Crusades which set up conditions for interactions between the Islamic world and Europe, and some (somewhat fantastical) conceptions of Sufism hold it as a “benevolent secret society” which made veiled inroads into the West for centuries to spread what they regarded as a higher, Sufic influence which could regenerate the West’s culture and restore the lost Sufi heart to Christianity.

The Rosicrucian Michael Maier (1568 - 1622) includes the Arabic world as one of the sources of the Rosicrucians’ wisdom: “Our origins are Egyptian, Brahminic, derived from the mysteries of Eleusis and Samothrace, the Magi of Persia, the Pythagoreans, and the Arabs,” and the legendary founder of the Rosicrucian Order, Christian Rosenkreuz, is held to have traveled to and learned from “wise men in Arabia,” besides other places. The conjoined symbolism/imagery of the rose and the cross is also identical to that of one Sufi order, started by Abdul Qadir al-Jilani, who himself was also known as “the Rose of Baghdad.”

[Anonymous No.21445057]

>>21444796
>>21444856
Very interesting anon, thanks for the info. Im currently reading Oriental Magic by Idries Shah and after that I will read The Sufis, where do I go from there? How can a westerner become initiated in sufism, is it basically impossible unless I go the Orient or how?

[Anonymous No.21445092]

>>21445043
Fascinatingly enough, interaction between Muslims (Sufis particularly) and Jews in Spain is held, even by Jewish scholars, to have influenced the rise of the Kabbalah and the later Jewish mystical movement of Hasidism — and therefore by this means, societies like Freemasonry who include a study of the Kabbalah in their literature, and countless Western esotericists and mystics besides.

>What are the origins of the Cabala?

>It is a characteristic of Jewish scholarship that honesty and detachment are wedded to a search for truth. And hence we may not be surprised to find that the Jewish Encyclopedia stresses the determining role of the Brethren of Sincerity [an anonymous group of Sufi scholars who created one of the world’s first encyclopedias, gathering all the learning of the day, and brought it from the Near East to Spain] on the production of the mighty Cabala system: “The Faithful Brothers of Basra originated the eight elements which form God,” it says, “changed by a Jewish philosopher in the middle of the eleventh century into ten.”

>The Cabala came from the region of the Faithful Brothers to two places — Italy and Spain. Its system of word manipulation may be derived from parallel and ancient Jewish teaching, but it founded upon Arabic grammar. There is a most intriguing link between the Sufistic stream and the Jews here, which has caused Sufi teachers to stress the underlying identity of the two. These are some of the facts which link the Sufis and the Judeo-Christian mystics:

>Ibn Masarrah of Spain was a precursor of Solomon Ibn Gabirol (Avicebron or Avencebrol), who propagated his ideas. These Sufi tenets “influenced the development of the Cabala more than any other philosophical system,” says the Jewish Encyclopedia. And, of course, Ibn Gabirol, the Jewish follower of the Arab Sufi, exercised an immense and widely recognized influence upon Western thought. God is called by the Jewish teacher Azriel in his system of the Cabala EN SOF, the absolutely infinite, and it was he who undertook to explain the Cabala to philosophers after its appearance in Europe ...

>This Sufi tradition is underlined by the Jewish Encyclopedia, which says, “To the spread of Sufism in the eighth century was probably due the revival of Jewish mysticism in Muhammadan countries at that period. Under the direct influence of the Sufis arose the Jewish sect called Yudghanites” (Vol. xi, p. 579). The effect of the Sufi system upon the mystical Jewish Markabah-Riders was so profound that some of the phenomena (the transition of colors and then to colorlessness, for example) produced in the mystic are identical with those of the Sufi. Hasidism, the mystical piety in practice which arose in Poland in the eighteenth century, is not only “the real continuation of the Cabala; but it must be based on Sufism or a part of the Cabala, which is identical with it.”

[Anonymous No.21445153]

>>21445092
>>It is a characteristic of Jewish scholarship that honesty and detachment are wedded to a search for truth.
Here is what Jewish Israel Shahak has to say about Jewish Cabala scholarship in 'Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years'

>So one will not find in Hannah Arendt's voluminous writings, whether on totalitarianism or on Jews, or on both,[4] the smallest hint as to what Jewish society in Germany was really like in the 18th century: burning of books, persecution of writers, disputes about the magic powers of amulets, bans on the most elementary "non- Jewish" education such as the teaching of correct German or indeed German written in the Latin alphabet. Nor can one find in the numerous English- language "Jewish histories" the elementary facts about the attitude of Jewish mysticism (so fashionable at present in certain quarters) to non- Jews: that they are considered to be, literally, limbs of Satan, and that the few nonsatanic individuals among them (that is, those who convert to Judaism) are in reality "Jewish souls" who got lost when Satan violated the Holy Lady (Shekhinah or Matronit, one of the female components of the Godhead, sister and wife of the younger male God according to the cabbala) in her heavenly abode. The great authorities, such as Gershom Scholem, have lent their authority to a system of deceptions in all the "sensitive" areas, the more popular ones being the most dishonest and misleading.

[Anonymous No.21445174]

>>21445057
I have no clue unfortunately. My posts are also writing about some of the most esoteric and literary teachings, teachers, and parts of the history of Sufism, which glosses over its massive diversity, and the fact that quite a lot of it, in the real world, is just highly devotional, pietistic Muslim practice without necessarily having all this subtlety, and there are also even debates that go on within Sufism about whether or not such-and-such an order is corrupted or decayed, still contains transformative wisdom in it or is just a fossilized relic left behind by a former wise teacher, etc. (Much like the schisms in Judaism, Christianity and all other world religions.)

Also, despite how mystical and iconoclastic this rendition of Sufism makes it sound, in the real world, practically any known Sufi order will expect you to convert to Islam, carry out the life of a Muslim, in order to be initiated by/affiliated with that order. Which is, on average, a rather uprooting, drastic change-of-life for an initially non-Muslim Westerner.

In all truth, my posts are more about the “Dan Brown”-style exciting stuff and pyrotechnics, as I (like many, I’m sure) have the Western-sensationalist bent when it comes to foreign cultures and religions.

However, if you want a suddenly very different (and somewhat more optimistic) answer, Idries Shah, whom I’m riffing off of for much of this information, who was either the Grand Sheikh of the Naqshbandi Order elected by an enclave of Sufis from all over the world who met in Turkey to elect an emissary to send to the West to spread their teachings, or an unprecedented swindler, claimed:

>Shortly before he died, Shah stated that his books form a complete course that could fulfil the function he had fulfilled while alive.

But he may have been saying this to sell more books. Who knows?

[Anonymous No.21445199]

>>21440565
Guenon was the tradition is Islam that was lost elsewhere in the world

[Anonymous No.21445220]

>>21445153
Well, yes, considering where we are I had to expect some flack for bringing up that specific ethnic group. Most Muslims and Sufis don’t hold to those views, clearly, and those are good examples of the decay of religious traditions that both Traditionalists and Sufis consider as having occurred. Clearly, few Muslims or Sufis would proudly point to those exact portions of rabidly anti-Gentile Jewish teachings (clearly not held by all of the Kabbalists or Hasidic zaddiks and followers) with pride at “the uplifting influence Sufism has had on this culture,” since they did not influence those parts and those parts are clearly reprehensible.

The Arabic people, remember, are one of the most common groups in the world to believe that an evil Zionist elite controls the West/is aiming for world-domination, or in the lingo of modern sociologists taking these surveys, “to hold antisemitic beliefs.” (Which clearly seems inspired in a large part by Israel’s historical and ongoing crimes against Palestine.)

[Anonymous No.21445251]

>>21445220
>(clearly not held by all of the Kabbalists or Hasidic zaddiks and followers)
Do you have serious evidence or some sort of grounds to think this is not held or taught by all traditional (not new-age) teachers of Hassidism or is it just an assumption? Shahak in his book cites anti-goyim statements in what are evidently standard Hassidic texts. Is there a kind of school or sect of Hassidism which rejects this?

>What, then, are the views of this movement concerning non- Jews? As an example, let us take the famous Hatanya, fundamental book of the Habbad movement, one of the most important branches of Hassidism. According to this book, all non- Jews are totally satanic creatures "in whom there is absolutely nothing good." Even a non-Jewish embryo is qualitatively different from a Jewish one. The very existence of a non-Jew is "inessential," whereas all of creation was created solely for the sake of the Jews.

>This book is circulated in countless editions, and its ideas are further propagated in the numerous "discourses" of the present hereditary Fuehrer of Habbad, the so- called Lubavitcher rabbi, M.M. Schneurssohn, who leads this powerful world- wide organization from his New York headquarters. In Israel these ideas are widely disseminated among the public at large, in the schools and in the army. (According to the testimony of Shulamit Aloni, Member of the Knesset, this Habbad propaganda was particularly stepped up before Israel's invasion of Lebanon in March 1978, in order to induce military doctors and nurses to withhold medical help from "Gentile wounded." This Nazi- like advice did not refer specifically to Arabs or Palestinians, but simply to "Gentiles," goyim.) A former Israeli President, Shazar, was an ardent adherent of Habbad, and many top Israeli and American politicians headed by Prime Minister Begin publicly courted and supported it. This, in spite of the considerable unpopularity of the Lubavitcher rabbiin Israel he is widely criticized because he refuses to come to the Holy Land even for a visit and keeps himself in New York for obscure messianic reasons, while in New York his anti- Black attitude is notorious.

>The fact that, despite these pragmatic difficulties, Habbad can be publicly supported by so many top political figures owes much to the thoroughly disingenuous and misleading treatment by almost all scholars who have written about the Hassidic movement and its Habbad branch. This applies particularly to all who have written or are writing about it in English. They suppress the glaring evidence of the old Hassidic texts as well as the latter- day political implications that follow from them, which stare in the face of even a casual reader of the Israeli Hebrew press, in whose pages the Lubavitcher rabbi and other Hassidic leaders constantly publish the most rabid bloodthirsty statements and exhortations against all Arabs.

[Anonymous No.21445254]

>>21445251
>A chief deceiver in this case, and a good example of the power of the deception, was Martin Buber. His numerous works eulogizing the whole Hassidic movement (including Habbad) never so much as hint at the real doctrines of Hassidism concerning non- Jews. The crime of deception is all the greater in view of the fact that Buber's eulogies of Hassidism were first published in German during the period of the rise of German nationalism and the accession of Nazism to power. But while ostensibly opposing Nazism, Buber glorified a movement holding and actually teaching doctrines about non- Jews not unlike the Nazi doctrines about Jews. One could of course argue that the Hassidic Jews of seventy or fifty years ago were the victims, and a "white lie" favoring a victim is excusable. But the consequences of deception are incalculable. Buber's works were translated into Hebrew, were made a powerful element of the Hebrew education in Israel, have greatly increased the power of the blood- thirsty Hassidic leaders, and have thus been an important factor in the rise of Israeli chauvinism and hate of all non- Jews. If we think about the many human beings who died of their wounds because Israeli army nurses, incited by Hassidic propaganda, refused to tend them, then a heavy onus for their blood lies on the head of Martin Buber.

>I must mention here that in his adulation of Hassidism Buber far surpassed other Jewish scholars, particularly those writing in Hebrew (or, formerly, in Yiddish) or even in European languages but purely for a Jewish audience. In questions of internal Jewish interest, there had once been a great deal of justified criticism of the Hassidic movement. Their mysogynism (much more extreme than that common to all Jewish Orthodoxy), their indulgence in alcohol, their fanatical cult of their hereditary "holy rabbis" who extorted money from them, the numerous superstitions peculiar to themthese and many other negative traits were critically commented upon. But Buber's sentimental and deceitful romantization has won the day, especially in the USA and Israel, because it was in tune with the totalitarian admiration of anything "genuinely Jewish" and because certain "left" Jewish circles in which Buber had a particularly great influence have adopted this position.

[Anonymous No.21445272]

>>21445251
My proof is already stated in the fact that Jewish philosophers tied to the origins of the Cabala were verifiably influenced by Sufi (and other Gentile) theologians and mystics, whom they respected enough to learn something from. For instance, the aforementioned 11th-century Andalusian Jewish philosopher Solomon ibn Gabirol, tied to the origins of Kabbalistic thought, took great inspiration from Neoplatonism, as well as from the aforementioned Andalusian Muslim philosopher Ibn Masarrah.

It doesn’t seem true that 100% of Jews hate 100% of all Gentiles all the time, even if there is Jewish-Gentile and Gentile-Jewish animosity. This is in fact such a bold claim that the burden-of-proof is on you making the claim. I also require you read the “Cyclops” chapter in Ulysses and write me a serious, thoughtful essay on it if you wish to continue talking, otherwise I will ignore you.

[Anonymous No.21445275]

>>21440565
Because sufism not only allows but encourages consumption of opium.
Cope all you want, go ahead and write entire tearful essays in response to this post, that unconvincingly try to paint sufism as the utmost spiritual tradition, knock yourselves out with cope - it doesn't change the simple fact that Guenon was a junkie, and that his choice of spiritual tradition flowed from this.

[Anonymous No.21445310]

>>21445272
>My proof is already stated in the fact that Jewish philosophers tied to the origins of the Cabala were verifiably influenced by Sufi (and other Gentile) theologians and mystics, whom they respected enough to learn something from.
Even if we theoretically grant as true the claim that Jewish philosophers tied to the origin of Cabala were influenced by Sufis, it doesn't logically follow from this as some sort of "proof" that anti-goyim teachings were not always a part of Cabala. That is to say, it is possible to imagine Jews already having an anti-goyim attitude and subscribing to anti-goyim teachings (which they could have gotten from the Talmud), and then learning about mystical ideas from others and integrating those mystical ideas into Judaism, but without ever abandoning those anti-goyim ideas and without finding them to be incompatible with said mystic teachings; they could have been a part of Cabala from its very inception. I am agnostic on the question of how exactly this played out, but you seem to insist on a sort of a priori acceptance of the notion that Cabalistic anti-goyim teachings being a later deviation not present in the original Cabala. Being anti-goyim does not prevent a Jew from learning from goyim, as evinced by Maimonides who includes many vicious anti-goyim statements in his writings despite being heavily influenced by Aristotle, Ibn Sina etc. If this exchange is possible without giving up anti-goyim attitudes in the case of Maimonedes, why would it not also be possible with the founders of Jewish Cabala? It's a serious question

>It doesn’t seem true that 100% of Jews hate 100% of all Gentiles all the time,
Which is not what I ever claimed, rather I was saying anti-goyim teachings are actually rather standard or normative in Cabala and Hassidism (just like the Talmud) instead of being some sort of outlier. Not all Jews follow either Cabala or Hassidism.

I am not going to read Ulysses but it should be evident from my post that I am taking what you say seriously and am posting something serious in response.

[Anonymous No.21445319]

>>21445275
>Guenon was a junkie
Sedgewick says in his books that he permanently stopped using hash and opium by the time he moved to Egypt and that as a Muslim in Egypt he only consumed tobacco and coffee; ie he wasn't a junky

[Anonymous No.21445334]

>>21445254
To clarify, I view this as about as irrelevant to the topic-at-hand, as bringing up the fact that quite a few Muslims actually are narrow-minded fundamentalist intolerant bigots, who view non-Muslims/foreigners as degenerate and outsiders to them (“kafirs”), their own religion as the best and most valid (in a very chauvinistic, militant way), and even often have sympathy for groups like al-Qaeda and I.S.I.S. (which they clearly keep well-hidden if sufficiently Westernized and intelligent enough about the-need-to-blend-in). And, in even further truth, this bitterness also does make some sense considering the U.S.‘s horrific war crimes against the Middle East, but is also still somewhat nasty to consider.

I view this as having as much relevance to Sufism (as the highest production and thought of a culture), as bringing up the psycho-sociological complexes and flaws in the culture of the Jews does to their own (Jews’) most sophisticated thought, theology, philosophy, and contribution to the world of ideas.

At risk of indulging in the “No True Scotsman” fallacy, I’d say those aren’t true Jews, just as the terrorists aren’t true Muslims (in fact, Sufis in the Middle East, and their shrines and mosques, have even been the victims of terror attacks, from radical jihadis who view Sufism as degenerate non-Muslims), and like the torturers and executors of the Inquisition weren’t real Christians.

Maybe that’s just my naive, “New Age” view though, if you wish to call it that.

[Anonymous No.21445376]

>>21445334
>>>21445254 (You)
>To clarify, I view this as about as irrelevant to the topic-at-hand
It was, but this was a low-effort troll thread by mentally-ill OP who seems to have stopped engaging with his own thread anyway, so who cares? Addressing whether anti-goy teachings are normative/standard in Cabala/Hassidism or a deviation is surely a relevant topic for anyone interested in Perennialism. Even if one is to accept that anti-goy teachings are normative in Cabala, that premise can still be integrated into and reconciled with a perennialist worldview, including a "Guenonian" type one that roots itself in non-dualism. I simply have an honest interest in determining the facts about this, which is why I asked you about what was informing your assumptions about Cabala/Hassidism.

>At risk of indulging in the “No True Scotsman” fallacy, I’d say those aren’t true Jews, just as the terrorists aren’t true Muslims
Why would that make them "not true jews" when Rabbinical Judaism and the Talmud that it's based on contain many anti-goyim teachings, instructions on how one should swindle them, directives to curse the mothers of the dead when passing non-Jewish cemeteries etc etc? What you are dismissing as "not true judaism" seems wholly continuous with and in agreement with the attitude towards goyim in the Talmud.

[Anonymous No.21445383]

>>21445376
>It was, but this was a low-effort troll thread by mentally-ill OP who seems to have stopped engaging with his own thread anyway,
Scratch that, I forget what thread I was posting in for a second.

Everything else in the post I stand by

[Anonymous No.21445397]

>>21440594
read a book. this is /lit/ after all

[Anonymous No.21445429]

Reminder esoteric islam will get you executed.
Our shaykh (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: These are the words of heresy and kufr; the one who says them should be executed without being asked to repent, because he has denied that which is known from the sharee’ah. For Allaah has set up the system by His wisdom in such a way that His rulings can only be known through His Messengers who are ambassadors between Him and His creation. They are the only ones who convey His Message and His words from Him, explaining His laws and rulings, and He has chosen them for that purpose
https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/22245

[Anonymous No.21445486]

bump

[Anonymous No.21445538]

>>21445376
The Sufi could be neither a rabid, unqualified anti-Semite, nor an ethnically-exclusivist pro-Zionist Loxist supporting things like war-crimes against the Palestinians, for instance, or holding fervently anti-Gentile beliefs.

Hence, whatever of such moral and spiritual corruption and decay is to be found in a religion, this is more support for the claims of Sufis (and the Traditionalists) that most mainstream religions today are degenerated, even if there are some rare, more isolated pockets of them who have more accurately and faithfully preserved more of authentic wisdom, practices, and beliefs confluent with the “Sufi stream,” or the capacity for divine inspiration and enlightenment held to possibly be able to happen to followers of other religious traditions.

If the Talmud says and teaches these things, it does not have to be revered and taken as one’s gospel simply because one has admitted the possibility of God’s working in other religious traditions, or mentioned how Sufism had some influence on Hasidism and the Cabala. A perennial-philosophical conception of religion is not asking you to “swallow the whole horse,” accept everything of every tradition. Those who believe in the “perennial philosophy”, “Tradition,” and the like, are far from saying every bit of every religion can and should be uncritically believed, and often, in fact, stress how modern religious institutions and traditions CANNOT, in the main, be uncritically trusted if one wants to find “the Real Truth.”

[Anonymous No.21445553]

>>21445538
> A perennial-philosophical conception of religion is not asking you to “swallow the whole horse,” accept everything of every tradition.
I agree, and I never said anything that implied the contrary

[Anonymous No.21445585]

>>21440594
You can't. No reading the Coran, no being a sufi.
And a translation of the Coran is not the Coran, contrary to e.g. the Bible.
Also, you're a faggot so you'd get stoned.

[Anonymous No.21445706]

>>21445553
So then there’s no real meaning to this argument, or it’s not an argument at all. The underlying metaphysical framework of Cabalistic thought and Hasidism can be compared to and is essentially identical with the underlying metaphysics of Sufism (firm belief in the Oneness of God, monotheism, and even more specifically, panentheistic emanationism — which is NOT pantheism, but holds God as also being the transcendent creator of the world and beyond it, while also manifesting within it/underlying the entire world, and all similar to Neoplatonism).

This is the sort of confluence such Sufis (and the Traditionalists) are interested in. If the Jews became corrupted and many fell away from Godliness, then that is indeed what happened, even if there is an underlying metaphysical framework in Jewish mysticism which bears some relation to and can be reconciled with “Tradition.” And for all of Israel Shahak’s (perhaps merited) vituperation, Shahak himself was a Jew, and I highly doubt it that there have never been Jews like Shahak, or good Jews within such traditions (the Kabbalah and Hasidism, and other sects besides) who had some authentic wisdom, piety and learning. For all that Shahak criticizes someone like Buber’s whitewashing of Hasidism, a work like Martin Buber’s “Tales of the Hasidim” is still profoundly beautiful. The idealized Hasidic zaddik portrayed by Buber is essentially the same as a Sufi, and the students of the zaddiks the same as dervishes, and the best of the tales of the Hasidim essentially the same as the parables of the Gospels and the teaching-stories of the Sufis. (About love of God, wakefulness and self-watching, self-reproach, repentance, the transformation of one’s mind and heart, and love of one’s fellow man)

However rare they (saintly Jews) may have been in actuality and however idealized someone like Buber’s portrait of the movement is, some of them had to exist, in accordance with the folkish Sufi belief that saints overall are rare but can potentially be found in every tradition. See Idries Shah’s annotation on “Hidden Sufis” or “friends”:

>There are several forms of invisible saints (“friends”) corresponding with the general human need for a certain representation of psychic or psychological activity in the whole community, according to Sufi teaching. Hujwiri (Revelation of the Veiled, Nicholson’s version, p. 213) says:

>”Among them there are four thousand who are concealed and do not know one another and are not aware of the excellence of their state, but in all circumstances are hidden from themselves and from mankind. Traditions have come down to this effect, and the sayings of the saints proclaim the truth thereof, and I myself — God be praised! — have had ocular experience of this matter.”

[Anonymous No.21445895]

>>21445706
By a genuine synchronicity, I just randomly flipped to a page at the end of Martin Buber’s “Tales of the Hasidim”, in the glossary, p. 336, and my eye caught this exact entry:

>THIRTY-SIX HIDDEN ZADDIKIM: the Talmud (Sukkah 45b) speaks of the thirty-six pious men who welcome the presence of God every day; in later legends they are described as humble, unrecognized saints. Disguised as peasants, artisans, or porters, they go around doing good deeds. They constitute the true “foundation of the world.”

[Anonymous No.21445945]

There is even a traditional Sufi story which encapsulates their belief in the hidden unity of all religions, or that all religions and all peoples are, consciously or unconsciously, seeking the same goal. It could be called, “The Tale of the Travelers and the Grapes.”

>I report a glimpse of Sufis in a circle (halka), the basic unit and very heart of active Sufism. A group of seekers is attracted to a teaching master, and attends his Thursday evening assembly. The first part of the proceedings is the less formal time, when questions are asked, and students received.

>On this occasion, a newcomer had just asked our teacher, the Agha, whether there was a basic urge toward mystical experience, shared by all humanity.

>”We have a word,” replied the Agha, “which sums all this up. It describes what we are doing, and it summarizes our way of thinking. Through it you will understand the very reason for our existence, and the reason why mankind is generally speaking at odds. The word is Anguruzuminabstafil.” And he explained it in a traditional Sufi story.

>Four men — a Persian, a Turk, an Arab, and a Greek — were standing in a village street. They were traveling companions, making for some distant place: but at this moment they were arguing over the spending of a single piece of money, which was all that they had among them.

>”I want to buy angur,” said the Persian.

>”I want uzum,” said the Turk.

>”I want inab,” said the Arab.

>”No!” said the Greek, “we should buy stafil.”

>Another traveler passing, a linguist, said, “Give the coin to me. I undertake to satisfy the desires of all of you.”

>At first they would not trust him. Ultimately they let him have the coin. He went to the shop of a fruit seller and bought four small bunches of grapes

>”This is my angur,” said the Persian.

>”But this is what I call uzum,” said the Turk.

>”You have brought me inab,” said the Arab.

>”No!” said the Greek, “this in my language is stafil.”

>The grapes were shared out among them, and each realized that the disharmony had been due to his faulty understanding of the language of the others.

[Anonymous No.21446446]

>>21445706
>So then there’s no real meaning to this argument, or it’s not an argument at all.
I never conceived of it as being an argument in the first place anon. What happened was that I found a quote in one of your posts about honesty in Jewish studies on Judaism to be in marked contrast to what Israel Shahak observes about the same phenomenon, so I posted his comments. Then, the conversation shifted to Cabala/Hassidism and the question of whether anti-goy teachings are a normative part of said teachings or whether they are a deviation. You seem to be motivated by the view that these teachings are a deviation or outlier, while on the other hand I'm not so convinced of this and I think there is evidence to plausibly consider it as actually being a relatively normal and standard part of the Cabala/Hassidism as traditionally passed down from Jew to Jew. I am motivated to discuss this question by the spirit of open and unflinchingly honest intellectual inquiry, and not because of some animus.

>The underlying metaphysical framework of Cabalistic thought and Hasidism can be compared to and is essentially identical with the underlying metaphysics of Sufism (firm belief in the Oneness of God, monotheism, and even more specifically, panentheistic emanationism — which is NOT pantheism, but holds God as also being the transcendent creator of the world and beyond it, while also manifesting within it/underlying the entire world, and all similar to Neoplatonism).
Yes, but one can accept all of this while simultaneously asserting (as some Jews and/or Jewish texts do) without contradiction that all non-Jews are totally satanic, lacking anything holy, that they are "non-essential" and more or less exist to serve the Jews.

>For all that Shahak criticizes someone like Buber’s whitewashing of Hasidism, a work like Martin Buber’s “Tales of the Hasidim” is still profoundly beautiful.
I also agree that the hateful rhetoric against goys doesn't mean that the beautiful or inspiring aspects of Jewish mysticism somehow cease to exist. We see the same phenomenon in Islam where Sufism speaks of love but there are endless tales about notable Sufis participating in violence and even encouraging their fellow Muslims to rape, murder and enslave infidels (Sufi participation in the Muslim conquest of Buddhist central Asia is a notable example of this). All the same, claiming that the metaphysical teachings about unity is somehow "more essential" or "more true" than the teachings about goys is actually reading Judaism through a non-Jewish perspective which many Jews themselves wouldn't accept.

[Anonymous No.21446538]

>>21446446
>What happened was that I found a quote in one of your posts about honesty in Jewish studies on Judaism to be in marked contrast to what Israel Shahak observes about the same phenomenon, so I posted his comments.
That’s a fair point, Shah does show a deliberate and slightly over-the-too philosemitism in that comment of his about the “honesty of Jewish scholarship.”

I overall understand your points but think just focusing on the negativity gives a warped, biased picture compared to including both (positive and negative poles); and perhaps only focusing on the positives is also just as biased, too, so it’s fair that you brought up those points as well.

[Anonymous No.21447815]

>>21441284
Most of Sufism is more mystic than properly esoteric in the Guénonian sense. All these pussies thinking they should cuck to shitslam to be a Sufi like Guénon (who was already initiated into multiple Traditions years before moving to Cairo) don't realize that the vast majority of Sufism is more akin to mysticism (like mystic Christianity) than to true esotericism. Guénon says in a letter that people need to to understand the difference.

[Anonymous No.21447826]

>>21445199
Muslims are so dishonest. They are currently actively making the West much more violent, brutalizing their hosts while leeching off their tax dollars for more gibs. Ardent followers of their religion endlessly rape, mutilate and kill European women and children while their leaders say nothing or approve of it, then they turn around and say they are on our side. They are animals who don't belong in the West.

They are basically less intelligent jews, which makes sense.

[Anonymous No.21447854]

>>21445043
>Sufism, likewise, holds that traditions like Judaism and Christianity are increasingly “dead” or defunct religions, corrupted relics of former authentic revelations, even if there is some wisdom or truth to be found in them in an often indirect, scattered, degraded form.
Sufism and Islam are also obviously suffering this same fate.
>Fascinatingly enough, much of the Western esoteric movement and secret societies which fascinate us (the Knights Templar, the Rosicrucians, Masonry, the Kabbalah) can plausibly be tied to Sufic influence as well. Paradoxically, it was the Crusades which set up conditions for interactions between the Islamic world and Europe, and some (somewhat fantastical) conceptions of Sufism hold it as a “benevolent secret society” which made veiled inroads into the West for centuries to spread what they regarded as a higher, Sufic influence which could regenerate the West’s culture and restore the lost Sufi heart to Christianity.
Claims like this are made about other non-Sufist groups as well, which predate Islam in some cases. The secret societies behind the Templars were probably in contact with Sufis before the crusades, and I would say definitely during them.
>The Rosicrucian Michael Maier (1568 - 1622) includes the Arabic world as one of the sources of the Rosicrucians’ wisdom: “Our origins are Egyptian, Brahminic, derived from the mysteries of Eleusis and Samothrace, the Magi of Persia, the Pythagoreans, and the Arabs,” and the legendary founder of the Rosicrucian Order, Christian Rosenkreuz, is held to have traveled to and learned from “wise men in Arabia,” besides other places. The conjoined symbolism/imagery of the rose and the cross is also identical to that of one Sufi order, started by Abdul Qadir al-Jilani, who himself was also known as “the Rose of Baghdad.”
Rosicrucians are Hermetic Masters, and Hermeticism obviously predates Islam by thousands of years. Alchemy (the technique of Hermeticism), according to Guenon and other initiated writers, was passed down by the Egyptians to the Greeks, then to the Arabs by means of the Greeks, and up in Europe at some point, possibly by means of the Arabs but not necessarily, since there are big differences between Arabic alchemical writings and Western writings (like the Rosicrucians, Flamel, and others).

Christian Rosenkreuz was probably not a real person and I think you're taking his story too literally. Rosicrucians often allude to travelling the world and communicating with different masters, so it seems like you're cherry-picking. There is a Rosicrucian order with documents going back to 1317 (at least on paper) who claim they went to India.

Those rose is an initiatic symbol that goes beyond Western esoteric Traditions and Sufism, see Apuleius being initiated into the Isis mysteries, for example. So again, you are cherry-picking, to make Sufism seem special....

[Anonymous No.21447864]

>>21447854
...Like the rose, the bee is also an important symbol, associated with Frankish Royal families, and many other groups around the world.

There are people who claim that Dante and his circle of initiates (the Fidele d'Amore) were actually influenced/taught by Muslim initiates, but Guenon actually does not think this is so, and that the Traditions instead share a common root.

I think that Trad Westerners should really study Hermetic Alchemy just as much or more than Sufism, although it could be more difficult to learn about the esoteric aspects of it, and there are so many "satanic" frauds abound, but a good grounding from Guenon will allow you to see through the majority of them. Just my opinion though, Sufism is probably more readily available, although I'm not sure of how legit it is, and a lot of it is just mysticism that you can find in Christianity and not true esotericism, or worse (frauds), so converting to Islam just for that does not seem worth it.

Also, I am highly skeptical of Freemasonry mixed with Islam, almost all of Freemasonry seems totally perverted, apart from a few Trads/esotericists who try to reform it into something better, but in that case, at least from what I have seen, they do this through Hermeticism. Maybe there are Sufis trying something similar, it would be worth knowing.

[Anonymous No.21447879]

>>21444796
>just as Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and pretty much all the rest of humanity can also be, note, so don’t accuse me of bigotry)
Cucking to political correctness right out of the gate is not a good sign. It seems like you are trying to groom others into Islam, which I have seen in other Traditional circles, and it disgusts me. Just like the grooming gangs in the UK specifically preying on innocent vulnerable white (and sometimes Indian) children, you are preying on vulnerable, lost young men who might think that totally upending their lives by converting to a religion presently attempting to conquer their entire civilisation will somehow save them. Trannies also do this sort of thing on discord. This proselytizing is so typical of Abrahamic religions, which is why some initiates see the latter as being a deviation from the original Logos/Dharma. It is also antithetical to the concept of true aristocracy.

I also don't see what was so good about Islamic "empires". They were basically brutal, stupid slave hordes destroying everything. Much worse than the Romans. Islam shares many of the same unfortunate Semitic tendencies as Christianity, but at least the heart of Christianity is more akin to the Western spirit than Islam, and has a long history/growth in Europe. As a Westerner, I really don't see how Islam overall is not just a foreign invasion to be fought back against. Sure, Sufism is different in some ways, but they are still Muslims.

[Anonymous No.21447885]

>>21447879
t. chud

[Anonymous No.21447894]

>>21447885

[Anonymous No.21447909]

Also, how are you supposed to know if a Sufi order is regular? (according to Guenon, obviously). In most cases they probably aren't, especially if they are shilling their orders to Westerners. I don't doubt that there are probably real regular Sufi orders out there somewhere (even esoteric ones, not just mystical), but finding them and converting is just as difficult or more difficult than finding regular lineages from different Traditions.

If you aren't willing to step outside of Guenon's strict criteria for regularity (which are contestable, especially given the times), you may as well just keep on reading books, which isn't a bad thing and you will be avoiding great dangers.

Beware of the Muslim groomers.

[Anonymous No.21447950]

>>21447879
>this is your mind on /pol/
You have to go back

[Anonymous No.21448493]

>>21440594
Go to your local Mosque and convert, then take it from there.

[Anonymous No.21448584]

>>21447879
European Nicene-derived Christianity is only a little bit better than Islam because they never normalized circumcision, but it is still significantly inferior to the Dharma. Neither Jesus nor Muhammad were enlightened figures.

I honestly hate both Iran and everything west of it, and I find it difficult deciding which ones I dislike the most. I think Arabs and Europeans have more in common than they'd like to admit, and you are natural allies.

[Anonymous No.21448710]

I invite you to our server about Tradition:
https://discord.gg/HmyXaD72

[Anonymous No.21448995]

>>21447879
If I made it sound like that, I apologize. I think there is much to be criticized in Islam, too, and its nations and cultures, including even the fact that it, too, can be criticized as an increasingly dead or defunct religion, on the whole.

In fact, I’d even like to say clearly, I do not recommend specifically converting to Islam.

Sufism is difficult to talk about both in the East and in the West, and often can get a skeptical look in both regions. In the (Middle) East, its reputed place of origin, because (as you partially suggested), these are now increasingly overpopulated authoritarian shitholes, who have historically looked askance and continue to look askance at some of Sufism as potentially heterodox. Sufis on the whole have responded to this by often being extremely outwardly pious and adherent to the norms of Islam, so that they can’t be accused of “being heretics,” but some cultural tension still remains.

In the West, they’re looked at askance because they’re tied to Islam. If figures like Pir Inayat Khan or Idries Shah stress the universalist nature of Sufism more in the West (where they can more freely talk about it), then, paradoxically, they’re then accused by Western “Traditionalists”, as well as by other Muslims, and even strongly Muslim Sufis/members of Sufi orders, of being non-Muslim heretical New Agers.

So which side of Sufism to stress? As the heart of Islam, or the secret heart of every religion? As parochial, or universal? Both sides exist, and talking about one of them will bring up someone’s animus. Perhaps it’s better not to talk about Sufism at all.

There are indeed major issues in trying to “transplant” religious and mystical traditions from their organic roots in some area in the East, to the West. Most Westerners are not organically Muslim, organically Buddhist, organically Hindu, so trying to graft the outer cultural rituals of these religions into the West, is more likely to lead to exoticism-for-the-sake-of-exoticism. For instance, the zendo (where Zen Buddhists sit and meditate) looks and feels very exotic in the West. You can go into a retreat in a Western zendo and it feels like a cool trip. But in Japan, the same zendo (even with the same architectural layout and setup of the rooms) is precisely meant to be extremely functional, bare, utilitarian, humdrum and mundane (nothing special). Similar “trips” can go on with Sufism or any other tradition, the Sufi robes, turbans, dancing/whirling, chants and music, architecture and the like all fascinating the Westerner and somewhat obscuring what there is to be learned from it.

[Anonymous No.21449002]

>>21447909
>In most cases they probably aren't, especially if they are shilling their orders to Westerners. I don't doubt that there are probably real regular Sufi orders out there somewhere (even esoteric ones, not just mystical), but finding them and converting is just as difficult or more difficult than finding regular lineages from different Traditions.
Strongly agree.

>>21447854
>Christian Rosenkreuz was probably not a real person and I think you're taking his story too literally.
I knew this and tried to suggest it by saying “legendary founder” but I see that was bad word-choice as “legendary” can also be used to refer to real people in a very positive way.

Currently busy but may respond to these later.

[Anonymous No.21450069]

>>21440594

> data(dot)nur(dot)nu/Kutub/English/Qushayri_Risala.pdf

Good luck, fren

[Anonymous No.21450264]

>>21447950
>sjw snowflake in a Trad thread
Kek

Nice Trump quote btw

[Anonymous No.21450289]

>>21447854
>Rosicrucians are Hermetic Masters, and Hermeticism obviously predates Islam by thousands of years. Alchemy (the technique of Hermeticism), according to Guenon and other initiated writers, was passed down by the Egyptians to the Greeks, then to the Arabs by means of the Greeks, and up in Europe at some point, possibly by means of the Arabs but not necessarily, since there are big differences between Arabic alchemical writings and Western writings (like the Rosicrucians, Flamel, and others).

The Arab/alchemical-Hermetic tie is what’s being stressed here. For instance, the 12th-century Muslim philosopher Suhrawardi, tied to Sufism and interest in him revived by Henry Corbin, claimed he was

>assisted by those who “have travelled the path of God” and mastered the ‘science of intuition’, the likes of “the inspired and illuminated Plato”, Hermes, Empedocles, Pythagoras, etc. among the Greeks and Jamasp, Frashostar, Bozorgmehr, etc. among the Ancient Persians (PI, §3; cf. Suh. 1993a, 502–4).

From the Stanford Encyclopedia entry on him. Idries Shah’s section on him in his “The Way of the Sufi” also gives similar testimony.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suhrawardi/

Islamic esoterism and even early Muslim scholarship has attributed identity of the prophet Idris mentioned in Quran 19:56-57 with Hermes Trismegistus.

>Mention, in the Book, Idris, that he was truthful, a prophet. We took him up to a high place.

__
>Hagiographers and chroniclers of the first centuries of the Islamic Hijrah quickly identified Hermes Trismegistus with Idris, the Islamic prophet of surahs 19.57 and 21.85, whom Muslims also identified with Enoch (cf. Genesis 5.18–24).

[Anonymous No.21450330]

>>21447854
Knights Templar and Islam/Sufism. I’m just going to post pictures from a book (Idries Shah’s “The Sufis”) because I can’t be bothered typing it all down/extracting the most worthwhile bits.

Other interesting point not mentioned here: some have tied accounts of Templars heretically worshiping the “demon” or “goat-headed” Baphomet, to being a corrupted transliteration of Mahomet, an archaic transliteration of Muhammad from Middle English and preserved in the French spelling.

[Anonymous No.21450339]

>>21447854 #
Knights Templar and Islam/Sufism. I’m just going to post pictures from a book (Idries Shah’s “The Sufis”) because I can’t be bothered typing it all down/extracting the most worthwhile bits.

Other interesting point not mentioned here: some have tied accounts of Templars heretically worshiping the “demon” or “goat-headed” Baphomet, to being a corrupted transliteration of Mahomet, an archaic transliteration of Muhammad from Middle English and preserved in the French spelling.

[Anonymous No.21450366]

[Anonymous No.21450404]

>>21440680
>>21450339
>>21450366
Partially discussed here, by the way. The claim also being made here is that some Sufis/Muslim esoterists regarded themselves as following a timeless teaching (a “perennial philosophy”) which could also be found in traditions like Neoplatonism and Hermeticism.

Some of Idries Shah’s subtle chauvinism comes out in saying the origin of these orders can be ENTIRELY traced back to Sufism, instead of just having it have been one major source of influence. However, combined with the Rosicrucians’ own mythology of them/their mythological founder having learned from “the Arabians” or “wise men of Arabia” (among others), it makes a pretty compelling argument. Joachim and Boaz, the two pillars of Masonic mysticism, are also plausibly tied to a Sufic origin here >>21450339.

[Anonymous No.21450436]

>>21450404
Another bit of Idries Shah’s slight chauvinism: rosaries were in use by early Christians (and even traditions such as Buddhism and Hinduism, as a support for meditation or the recitation of a mantra) before Islam, even if in a different form such as a knotted rope. Nevertheless, Shah is still a fascinating source of many things not before known to much of Western scholarship on Sufism.

[Anonymous No.21450653]

>>21440578
>Christianity has no esoteric orders
Rosicrucianism, but the only accessible entities calling themselves Rosicrucian were and are shams.

[卐 I V R I × N E M O 卍 !!GgBWHLRiayD No.21452367]

[Anonymous No.21452503]

>>21450653
>Rosicrucianism
Not real, christian esotericism is constituted by christian hermeticism and hesychasm. Modern Masonry is judaized philosemetic counter-initiation.

[Anonymous No.21452536]

>>21440565
holy shit cattos with fezes are the cutest. hashish and milk all day while intellectually discoursing with other old money felines

[Anonymous No.21453138]

>>21452536
Hello sweetie, does your husband or father know that you're using the internet? Have a nice day.

[Anonymous No.21453143]

>>21452536
>fezes

[Anonymous No.21453755]

>>21447854
Hermeticanon spotted,
>Rosicrucians are Hermetic Masters, and Hermeticism obviously predates Islam by thousands of years. Alchemy (the technique of Hermeticism), according to Guenon and other initiated writers, was passed down by the Egyptians to the Greeks, then to the Arabs by means of the Greeks, and up in Europe at some point, possibly by means of the Arabs but not necessarily, since there are big differences between Arabic alchemical writings and Western writings (like the Rosicrucians, Flamel, and others).
All correct, it is a tradition passed down by titans/fallen angels/nephilim/giants/egregores/watchers etc.
>>21447864
>Trad Westerners should study Hermetic Alchemy
They try and get completely filtered by Evola's Hermetic Tradition, either skimread it or dont finish it, and end up with some intellectual-symbolical opinion on it, without contacting any of the spiritual suprahuman states, they can only conceive of some idea that a sentence like "dominating the waters," may "intellectually correspond to," they have not been penetrated by the supernormal reality of it, and just repeat generic takes here, like "white >> red," thats all I see which is something rhetorical gleaned only by the most superficial summary of the matter, just check the /lit/ archives, noone here mentions "philosophic incest," materia prima, green dragon, "mercury," "arsenic" etc. not that they can even "comprehend" what any of it is really about, instead trad anons just debate contemporary historiography, and some intellectual synthetic concepts, all with some political-racial bent like islam, west, east, temporal conditions of X traditions. When really its all there available in the microcosm already, for whatever operation to those who are truly in contact with the metaphysical and supernatural, anyway none of this needs any further elaboration.

[Anonymous No.21453861]

>>21440565
Sufism allows gay sex