Heaven and Hell

[Anonymous No.21433021]

Genuine question. How are you, who shall be in Heaven, supposed to be overwhelmed with a feeling of joy and happiness when there are those who sinned less and atoned more for their evils than you—yet nevertheless did not believe in the Lord—but will be suffering all the while you bask in everlasting bliss?

Why is it that the earthling suffering of others (which isn't real because it doesn't pertain to the soul) supposed to cause you pain, but the spiritual suffering (which you claim IS real) should not?

[Anonymous No.21433028]

This is a literature board.

[Anonymous No.21433035]

>>21433021
This is a literature board.

[Anonymous No.21433076]

>>21433028
>>21433035
Yes, I mean to ask what the Bible meant by Heaven and Hell. I am having difficulty understanding these concepts. I imagine that if this >>21428224 is fine, then mine should be as well?

[Anonymous No.21433138]

>>21433021
I suggest you read That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation by David Bently Hart, OP.

[Anonymous No.21433324]

>>21433021
It’s a question that comes up in theology occasionally, namely in response to questions such as “How can I experience eternal bliss in heaven if my loved ones are in hell?” In response to this, people will cite verses like Revelations 21:4, implying that God will essentially make everyone who has salvation so blissful that they won’t care that their loved ones have been damned. One might point out that this isn’t much better than, say, being inured to the suffering of others and in a state of euphoria such as that which is provided by drug use, but since it’s heaven we’re supposed to pretend that this artificial state of bliss is entirely different and legitimate. There isn’t really a great or moral response to your question other than that God sort of does whatever he wants and we’re too small and stupid to understand the logic behind it. I suppose that, once you are in heaven, though you have a concern for those who are not in heaven, it will not bother you unduly because you’ll exist in a state other than your current one.

[Anonymous No.21433807]

>>21433021
You've definitely hit on something that people, just using their natural intuition alone, have a very hard time to understand. But with faith in God comes a certain kind of trust that He is able to find the most perfectly just solution. So that, if God makes a judgement, then whatever God's decision is must by necessity be the best and maximally just outcome - and better than anything that we could think of. This comes by recognizing that we are limited but God our Creator is infinitely just. Furthermore, it's possible to trust God to the extent that, once we see the judgement made, it will make much more sense at that time, as opposed to our limited understanding in this present life where there are a lot of things that we are not aware of. As one easy example, we don't know what anyone else is thinking, but God does. So, by the time that the judgement is made and the lost are sent to the lake of fire, we may very well be convinced of the truth that said outcome really is the best. The Bible teaches us that there will be a day of judgement where all things that are hidden will be revealed, and so I can see a future where once we learn some of these things, we won't be bothered by the decisions that God makes as to who is saved and who is cast into the lake of fire. It may be revealed to us why His decisions are just in the end. Here are a couple of Bible verses on the matter.

"Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment."
(Job 34:12)

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."
(Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) - the end of the book of Ecclesiastes

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
(Matthew 12:36-37)

"Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."
(Matthew 10:26)

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
(Revelation 20:12-15)

[Anonymous No.21433865]

>>21433324
>I suppose that, once you are in heaven, though you have a concern for those who are not in heaven, it will not bother you unduly bacause you'll exist in a state other than your current one.
>>21433807
>"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
>13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
>14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
>15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

See, this is what I don't understand. Jesus said to love your enemies and to bless those who curse you, but why doesn't God (who is Jesus) do the same? If hell isn't punishment for evil doers than what is its purpose, and what is Jesus saving us from? Why confess sins? I can only imagine that faith in God isn't necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but rather good deeds done with a good heart. However, this doesn't solve the problem of evil. It's all well if Heaven exist because then those good people which were brutally murdered will have their recompense, but I honestly don't believe Heaven or Hell exist. I believe it is better to bend all that goodness which is aiming towards Heaven downwards towards ourselves and towards planet Earth.

[Anonymous No.21433878]

>>21433324
Perhaps we only feel sorrow for wicked people due to our fallen nature? When we are restored in heaven and perfected, maybe we become incapable of feeling such things.

[Anonymous No.21433909]

>>21433865
>Jesus said to love your enemies and to bless those who curse you
True, and it also says this in Romans, which you might find interesting as it helps explain a lot of the reason why we are supposed to be obedient to this command.

"Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
(Romans 12:17-19)

So basically, since God is more just than we are, He is telling us to be good to those that might hurt us (personally), but that God will account for all things at the end. So it's not a total suspension of justice, but rather allowing God to be the one who avenges. And ultimately, this will be more just than what we try to do. As it says in James 1:20, "For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God."

>If hell isn't punishment for evil doers than what is its purpose, and what is Jesus saving us from?
We are saved from our own sins, both the consequences (hell) and just as importantly the control of sin over our life, as it did when each of us was still a lost person: and ultimately we will be able to live in a world devoid of sin once He returns. Sin is no longer our master, but Christ is.

"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
- John 8:34-36

>Why confess sins?
See:
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

>I can only imagine that faith in God isn't necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but rather good deeds done with a good heart.
We are told that someone who has sinned in even a single point is guilty of all. Christ makes a point of showing us that the standard of perfection is beyond any of our capabilities, that's what a lot of His sayings are about demonstrating. But He also says that, while it is impossible with men to save themselves or earn that salvation, yet with God all things are possible. That's why Christ came: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
- Matthew 19:25-26

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."
- Galatians 3:22

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
- Ephesians 2:8-9

[Anonymous No.21434146]

>>21433021
They put themselves in hell and you understand they did so and they deserve it

[Anonymous No.21434550]

>>21433865
I sometimes wonder if there's no Hell and only a Heaven. With God being all powerful, all loving, and all merciful, it just seems strange to cast souls into Hell for all eternity, whether Hell be eternal torture or eternal nonexistence. For an evil person to enter heaven, perhaps their wickedness would be burned away to leave only their kernel of good, in a kind of revelation of all of their misdeeds and what would have truly awaited them if they loved. That's my head-canon of course, based off of my limited understanding of purgatory. If I somehow made my way to Heaven I can only imagine sorrow if my family were not there.
>I believe it is better to bend all that goodness which is aiming towards Heaven downwards towards ourselves and towards planet Earth.
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but I do worry about this beyond individual or communal action. I think of state apparatuses bending the will of the people for some kind of utilitarian "good". Or ideological radicals causing mayhem for the sake of a utopian vision that could not possibly come to pass. When we lose sight of Heaven we pride ourselves into thinking we can perfect our fallen state, and lead ourselves to a hell on earth in the name of some good. When we set our sights only on Heaven we can commit the most basest of cruelties because we believe it is all for the ultimate and only real prize of the afterlife, which feels like following the law and not the spirit of the law.
An ideal that could not be enforced by any state apparatus, only the individual in unison with others, would be to set our sights to Heaven by committing ourselves to Christian, brotherly love here on earth. Within the Christian doctrine we strive for this goal while always remembering we are yet still fallen creatures, which I believe instills a system of "checks and balances" within this way of living as this acknowledgement of fallenness keeps us humble.

[Anonymous No.21434567]

Personally not a christian but most elegant conception of Heaven & Hell to me is that Hell is a state of being. That is the damned and the saved experience the same 'substance' but the damned sees God's presence as eternal suffering while the saved see it as eternal bliss. God doesn't condemn any soul to a specific locale but damnation is the mere consequence of one who is separated from God being in God's presence.

[Anonymous No.21434580]

>>21433865
God blesses sinners and the saved alike but the nature of sin leads one to perceive & experience it as a curse. That is the nature of Hell.

[Anonymous No.21434654]

>>21434567
>>21434580
I've heard of this too, which seems reasonable, at least relative to the fate of the afterlife.
Is there any scriptural accounts of this?

[Anonymous No.21434882]

heaven isnt just you being perfectly normal. basking in Gods glory and existing in a more abstract form will completely overwhelm all negative feelings

[Anonymous No.21434912]

>>21433021
The idea is that they had all the time in the world to become pure. In Dante's vision sinners are in a gradual process of moving out of Hell and up through Purgatory.

[Anonymous No.21434921]

Heaven and hell are both nothing but resentment-filled fantasies to get over the fact you did nothing with your life

[Anonymous No.21434981]

>>21433021
In Dante’s Divine Comedy, they don’t address this question specifically, but they do answer one similar to it, and the answer may be applicable.
In Paradisio, Dante and Beatrice go to the levels of Heaven. They start off in the lowest level and work their way up. Lowest level is for people who broke religious vows but were otherwise faithful. Dante asks them “don’t you feel a bit gypped knowing that you’re in the worst part of Heaven?” The people there give two answers: one is that Heaven is so great that even the worst part is great. The other is that, those in Heaven are so in love with God’s divine justice that they feel overwhelming joy at being placed exactly where they deserve to be placed.
Your question implies residents of Heaven who are more moral than God, that God is a moral monster and you put up with Him to go to Heaven. God is just and merciful, He places everyone in the afterlife where deserve to be. There is no sorrow for those below you and no jealousy for those above you, because every person deserves what they get