[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 44 KB, 850x400, quote-if-there-is-no-god-everything-is-permitted-fyodor-dostoevsky-8-7-0782.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21426667 No.21426667 [Reply] [Original]

143 years later and atheists still don't have a rebuttal.

>> No.21426686

>>21426667
That's what atheists believe.

>> No.21426692

>>21426667
It's funny how christians always repeat that quote when in fact Dostoyevsky never wrote it. It shows that rightoids don't read and just repeat whatever they hear another rightoid saying.

>> No.21426698

>>21426667
Everything IS permitted. No God's justice. No hell to punish the wrongdoers. Fear of punishment exists in this life only and can only be exacted by other humans

>> No.21426703

>>21426667
Dostoevsky never said that.
Zizek did a write-up on it over a decade ago.
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/if-there-is-a-god-then-anything-is-permitted/10100616

>> No.21426704

>>21426667
can people stop acting like D said this? IVAN said this, a fucking character in a novel, who goes insane and who was himself an atheist. Also the quote says "if there IS no God" not "if you don't believe in God". And that's all we can do "believe" no one of us can say if there is a god or not.

Whether you believe in God or not, it doesn't matter. People kill each other regardless, what do you think how many people suffered and died because of retarded christianity and islam forcing their beliefs onto other people?

>> No.21426711

>>21426692
>>21426703
>>21426704
Ivan Karamazov is a straw man Dostoevsky uses to explain why atheism is bad. At the end of the book he realizes the error of his ways and renounces atheism.

>> No.21426722

>>21426711
Dostoyevsky NEVER SAID this. Rightoids are seriously dumb.

>> No.21426742

>>21426711
ivan is anything but a strawman, Ivan makes by far the best arguments in the whole book and is also imo the most honest, but the problem with ivan is that D wrote himself into a corner, he could not find any arguments to counter Ivan's and so D just lets him go insane because muh atheism bad muh muh love wins muh muh i love to suck jesus dick meh

>> No.21426747

>>21426667
Religiontards are Facebook tier with their epic gotchas

>> No.21426761
File: 476 KB, 545x720, Xian-Golem.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21426761

>>21426667
I'm not an atheist but that's one of the dumbest claims ever made. Braindead and non sense. Only apologists can make it.

>> No.21426763
File: 26 KB, 500x479, 1671021212042.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21426763

>>21426667
The rebuttal is real life.
If God exists and is all powerful he must permit everything that happens in the universe therefore by definition "everything" is already permitted by God.
If God were to cease existing then supposedly something more would be permitted but how could you know what that something would be supposing that you believe God has always existed?

>> No.21426768

>>21426722
>Dostoyevsky NEVER SAID this
Correct. He wrote it.

>> No.21426775

>>21426763
>If God exists and is all powerful he must permit everything that happens in the universe therefore by definition "everything" is already permitted by God.
God allows you to sin, he just doesn't allow you to go to Heaven unless you ask forgiveness.

>> No.21426779

>>21426763
people who arent permitted to do something can still break the rules

>> No.21426782

>>21426742
>D just lets him go insane because muh atheism bad
Ivan goes insane with guilt because he feels responsible for the murder of his father, which he indirectly advocated through his rhetoric. Imagine missing the point of the book that badly.

>> No.21426806

>>21426742
did you even read the book?

>> No.21426808

>>21426667
This is exactly why Semitism has always been a joke. And the 2000 year old infatuation of the Europeans with it, to the point of killing all their paganisms to give space to the jewish god shows Europeans are just pathetic people in the first place.

So first you have to accept that meditation is not standalone. meditation is not done out of the blue to pass time and cast spells.
Meditation is a tool to achieve a goal. It turns out that there are various types of meditation. Once you fix a goal, some types of meditation will be bad and some types will be good. Meditation has nothing to do with a god. Again meditation is tool. Just like knowledge is a tool to achieve something. Knowledge has nothing to do with god. Knowledge is not done for the sake knowledge either.

Now Semitism is just not based on meditation in the first place. Semitism is based on devotion to a jewish guru and the novelty of semitism is that child sacrifice is no longer needed compared to the previous Canaanite religions (think of the jew Abraham who is asked to kill his son to please his jew god, and at the last minute the jew god says ''i changed my mind, it was just prank bro lmao''). Any attempt at bastardizing Semitism into some weird meditative stuff will be ill-formed. And in comparison with the eastern teachings, it will be a brutal mogging in favor of the eastern teachings.
A direct equivalent of Semitism is any eastern cult based on devotion, which is just Bhakti And bakthi is not fucking meditation. Bakthi is complete different method. Typically this is hinduism, vajarayana and mahayana. Buddhism has no devotion in it, Jainisim has no devotion in it.

you believe in a self + you want meditation organic to the teaching=>jainism

you dont believe in a self + you want meditation organic to the teaching=>buddhism

you just want meditation in a religious naturalist setting=> you do drugs recommended by your local shaman

you just want meditation because it's fun=>you do drugs recommended on erowid

you just want meditation and pretend to be scientific about it, like an atheist who fucking loves science=> you do meditation by atheist gurus like Culadasa, Ingram, all the atheists who fucking love zen

you want devotion + you want meditation with an unorganic teaching by your jewish guru or indian guru or tibetan guru or chinese guru praising some king of god or deified buddha=>you do hinduism, mahayana, vajrayana and you don't do yet another flavor of semitism. And the meditation done by those people has nothing to do with the meditation done by the buddhists or the jains.

>> No.21426817

>>21426667
its not though.... Its called being a decent fucking person. It is incredibly clear that killing and antagonizing other people is the wrong thing to do. Why they fuck do you need god to believe that??????

>> No.21426822
File: 228 KB, 800x600, meds.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21426822

>>21426808

>> No.21426824

>>21426817
who decides what is decent, and how is that choice and its reasoning not completely arbitrary and meaningless with no objective basis?

>> No.21426828
File: 162 KB, 1079x799, Screenshot_20221224_023054_Brave.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21426828

>>21426817
>It is incredibly clear that killing and antagonizing other people is the wrong thing to do.
What are "people"? Are fetuses people? What about blacks? Jews? Animals? The elderly? The poor? The mentally ill?

>> No.21426831

>>21426824
>who decides what is decent
Whoever controls the media.

>> No.21426834

>>21426817
>good is good because...it just is!
NPC alert

>> No.21426848

>>21426667
"yes"

>> No.21426859

>>21426692
That's also how religion works.

>> No.21426870

>>21426859
Dostoevsky did say it though, he just said it through Ivan, a character he wrote.

>> No.21426894

>>21426859
score 1 for religion I guess

>> No.21426925

>>21426667
Everything is permitted, but not everything is expedient.

>> No.21426949

>>21426722
>Rightoids
Back to red..dit.

>> No.21426957

>>21426817
Dumbest take ever, morality isnt self-evident, majority of people on earth dont think taken a human life is automatically evil, for example, if you ask the average person in the West today if pedophiles should be shot, a large portion would automatically agree, equally if I ask some tribal people if they would kill someone stealing one of their pigs, they would say yes.

Leftoids are stupid this way, they think moral rules almost nobody believes in are self-evident.

>> No.21426963

>>21426957
>>21426817
I could go even further, for example you obviously dont believe that antagonising people is bad, or you wouldnt do so in that post, you make absolutely no attempt to find a middle ground or to state thing in a friendly and social context, instaid its just arrogant and bitchy, try that in the wrong working environment and you automatically become the asshole.

>> No.21426970

>>21426957
>Leftoids are stupid this way, they think moral rules almost nobody believes in are self-evident.
You'll want to read Engels' _Socialism: Utopian and Scientific_

>> No.21426971

>>21426667
The rebuttal has remained the same throughout time.
Everything has always been permitted. This upsets you, kings, emperors, politicians, judges, lawyers, police, clergymen of all sorts, but it has always been and ever shall be.

>> No.21426974

>>21426963
>you obviously dont believe that antagonising people is bad, or you wouldnt do so in that post, you make absolutely no attempt to find a middle ground or to state thing in a friendly and social context
What website do you think you are on, anon?

>> No.21426981

>>21426971
>Everything has always been permitted
Wtf are you talking about?

>> No.21426984

>>21426971
The quote talks about consequences, silly goose.

>> No.21426995

>>21426970
>You'll want to read Engels' _Socialism: Utopian and Scientific_
Communism isnt modern parlementary leftism though. I dont work with weird umbrella terms.

>> No.21426997

>>21426974
>What website do you think you are on, anon?
Sigh, the anon makes moral claims he obviously doesnt follow.

>> No.21427020

>>21426981
I am referring to the quote in the OP

>>21426984
Not really. My post implies it more. The consequences of evident freedom and autistic mechanisms for control are historically evident. What about it?
Dosto's murderer exists with and without god, cleric, judge, cop, etc. There must be a better way to deal with the murderer. If not, at least we could be done with dealing with the social evils the king, the politician, the judge, the lawyer, the police, the clergymen. They never helped

>> No.21427050

>>21427020
>The consequences of evident freedom and autistic mechanisms for control are historically evident.
How are they evident? What were the consequences of America genociding the Native Americans or Spain genociding the Aztecs?

>> No.21427244

>>21427050
>What were the consequences of America genociding the Native Americans or Spain genociding the Aztecs?
A flowering of knowledge, art and culture in the Americas

>> No.21427270

>>21427244
So the consequences of genocide and enslavement was... limitless wealth and power for the conquerors?

>> No.21427298

>>21426667
It's sad thst christans can't have any decency or morals without "muh god" telling them.

Tells a lot about these people.

>> No.21427309
File: 155 KB, 1000x1000, 71GzEjmypoL.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21427309

>>21427298
It's sad that atheists don't have any decency or morals whatsoever.

>> No.21427310

>>21426824
You just ask yourself if the other person would like something and if you don't know ask yourself if you like it.

>hmmm would I like to be killed? Maybe not so I should not kill other people. And the parents of the killed person would be sad I guess. Do I want to make people that sad? Do I lile to be this sad? Maybe not so I should not do it.

>> No.21427315

Zizeks answer is definitive: if there is a God then anything is permitted. If God exists you can just say 'God told me to do this' for any action and God is always higher than any other humans around you so you're always justified in your actions. If there is no God then when people around you say 'what the hell man' you need an actual answer other than 'the clouds told me to', therefore accountability is higher in an atheist world.

>> No.21427317

>>21427310
So you agree that abortion is murder? If I was a fetus I wouldn't want to be killed, after all.

>> No.21427322

>>21427315
>accountability is higher in an atheist world.
Who held Stalin or Mao accountable?

>> No.21427339

>>21427309
Yet I didn't fuck my mother because someone told me to not do it but because I decided for myself that I don't like to do it.

But christians act like they would go murder people and rape their moms the moment they realise a god doesn't exist.