/lit/ - Literature

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/clg/ - Classical Languages General Anonymous Tue Dec 20 16:45:17 2022 No.21409393 [Reply] [Original]

Ἀθήναζε edition

>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>21361963

>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw

>Mέγα τὸ ANE
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

Best way to learn is to pick a textbook and start reading it. Don't ask, just read
Ignore shitposters, do not feed the trolls

Anonymous Tue Dec 20 16:50:22 2022 No.21409412
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>>21409393
>Best way to learn is to pick a textbook and start reading it. Don't ask, just read
Couldn't we make a simple infographic with a few recommendations like pic rel?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 16:54:00 2022 No.21409418 File: 9 KB, 200x252, images (6).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Second for Murdoch-Chan

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 17:08:14 2022 No.21409454 >>21409412 No, because every time the topic comes up, the thread descends into shitflinging.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 17:26:39 2022 No.21409506 File: 138 KB, 676x399, 1671164305107097.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21409393 Is Athenaze a good way to start with ancient greek? I'd be self-taught and I know italian, english, a little bit of spanish and minimal latin

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 17:52:26 2022 No.21409584 >>21409506 I personally loved it, took my time with it but enjoyed the journey. Also knew Italian and Latin when starting.

Anonymous Tue Dec 20 17:54:01 2022 No.21409588

>>21409506
Whatever book gets you studying today is good. All books are good all books are shit. I have a printed out Greek paradigm on the wall in my shower that I read while washing my ass. Is this a good way to learn? I don't know but it worked. Put Greek in your brain, that's all that matters.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 18:04:44 2022 No.21409610 >>21409393 Is there an answer key for Moreland and Fleischer's Latin floating around on the Internet?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 18:28:16 2022 No.21409707 Perseus is utter shit. Clicking on words is nearly useless for definitions. Achilles doesn't even bring up the name it just says "grief".

Anonymous Tue Dec 20 18:41:47 2022 No.21409771
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>>21409584
>>21409588
What's up with the greek vocabulary and the english meaning of the word not having a space in between as shown in picrel? Is there a way to fix this?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 18:49:36 2022 No.21409808 >>21409506 As long as you actually learn the grammar as well you won't go wrong.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 18:54:45 2022 No.21409821 >>21409771 where's that from? don't recognize it

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 19:04:30 2022 No.21409847 >>21409610 http://individual.utoronto.ca/ajhicks/moreland_fleischer.html

Anonymous Tue Dec 20 19:11:12 2022 No.21409880

>>21409821
This is the Athenaze website for ancient greek
I'm working through a different text right now but want a more interactive online website, but the vocab formatting is giving me aids just looking at it. I took a couple years of latin already, but am also interested in learning some hebrew if you have any good recommendations for that also

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 19:28:45 2022 No.21409958 Recommend me more latin KINO like this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_OyhWKTmJBo

Anonymous Tue Dec 20 19:34:37 2022 No.21409979

So I'm going to be starting Greek in January with the Cambridge Reading Greek books, but I'm wondering if there are any other textbooks that are worth getting for my own use?

I was thinking of getting Greek an Intensive Course, but I dunno if its the sort of book that is fairly useless without it being marked by a teacher

Anonymous Tue Dec 20 19:50:19 2022 No.21410037

I was going to make a separate thread for this question but I think you folks might be able to help me instead: are you aware of any books comparing the literary style of the sacred scriptures from different religions? Or perhaps can recommend me a book for each religion in regards to what I'm interested in? For example, when Muslims talk about the beauty of the language of the Quran. I cannot read these ancient languages but I was hoping for a work in English on the subject.

Anonymous Tue Dec 20 20:40:29 2022 No.21410273
File: 48 KB, 961x666, Legenda Heroum Galacticorum.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>"Stellas vides?"
>"Stellae sunt bonae. Immobiles, nos custodiunt, aeternae lucidae, constans res sola, quae nobis reliqua est."
>"Comprari illam immanitatem sunt proelia nostra perexigua."
>"Quidem, comprari illud, quod videmus, est proelium nostrum parvum."

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 20:51:49 2022 No.21410355 >>21410273 >"Oculos tuos etiam stellae sunt" >"T-tu quoque"

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 20:57:38 2022 No.21410397 File: 22 KB, 557x550, 1649623503200.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] do you think kikero said "neque is" "nequis" like me

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 22:01:19 2022 No.21410697 >>21410397 sine dubio

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 22:12:59 2022 No.21410733 >>21410397 dubtio

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 22:17:56 2022 No.21410767 >>21410733 grati numeri

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 22:32:09 2022 No.21410835 File: 1.78 MB, 300x242, 1663215111725995.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21410767 grati? aspice hos

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 20 23:00:38 2022 No.21410979 File: 15 KB, 300x300, 1529166782121.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] amicus cum puella venusta quae me de cicerone narrare delectavit factus sum sed amantibus se alis feminis me amare non potuit

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 01:50:54 2022 No.21411572 >>21409958 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWEEN_BIlN8

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 02:03:30 2022 No.21411612 Does learning modern Greek have any relevance at all to the Ancient variant? Will it significantly help me if I know Modern first? Kinda do wanna travel there desu

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 03:04:40 2022 No.21411839 >>21411612 From what I've seen it'll help a little, mainly in vocab, but the grammar is so simplified as to confuse the shit out of me.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 03:10:08 2022 No.21411858 >>21409958 I did two years of Latin at uni and it's pretty crazy that I can actually follow some of this. He's speaking in pretty simple language, so definitely not like Cicero which I had to study. Fuck Cicero.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 05:33:21 2022 No.21412316 >>21409707 Perseus is very useful. You need to click the hyperlink next to "Show lexicon entry". 99% of the time, I go with LSJ. Logeion is making an improved Perseus, but it is only for Mac and is very limited.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 08:18:13 2022 No.21412761 File: 224 KB, 1178x756, 1606428868653.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Are there any New World classical languages?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 09:01:49 2022 No.21412863 >>21409958 ugh, I hate it when vulgar *talians smugly mispronounce Latin with their debased tongues

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 09:10:28 2022 No.21412877 >>21412761 idk but I heard from my linguistics tutor that native american languages are fucking wild with the level of inflection

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 10:10:44 2022 No.21412995 >>21412761 Classical Nahuatl and Classical Maya, if those count.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 10:20:08 2022 No.21413022 >>21412863 ditto for modern greeks

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 10:23:15 2022 No.21413030

>>21412863
I don't think the average Anglophone shoehorning an approximation of Classical pronunciation into their native phonology is doing much better. At least local pronunciations of Latin have history and tradition behind them- I'd rather hear the traditional English pronunciation than thickly accented classical. Do reconstructed well or don't do it at all.

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 11:34:34 2022 No.21413225

>>21410037
This appreciation you speak of is real, but it only matters to someone who can comprehend the language. I love Semitic syntax. Translating Hebrew is fun and mathematical. It can be replicated in English, but to appreciate it, you must know the language. There isn't some grand book comparing the appreciable qualities of liturgical languages. The best you could find are some artsy paragraphs in a book focused on a singular language.
People who talk all the time about how great it is to read a particular language to people who don't know the language are pompous. Muslims tend to do that, yet the Quran is frequently gibberish.
>The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,' but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims—and Orientalists—will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible—if it can't even be understood in Arabic—then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not—as even speakers of Arabic will tell you—there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 11:37:19 2022 No.21413233 >>21413225 What's this quotation from?

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 12:05:25 2022 No.21413291

>>21411612
>>21411839
I think learning Modern would be of some help. There are some huge differences between Classical and Modern, but both will help give you a familiarity with the other. The input method is largely bullshit for dead languages. It's not like you can plant yourself in front of a TV or talk to real speakers with Classical Greek, but you can for Modern, so if you have a real strong interest in Modern Greek, learning it could be worthwhile.
I have one big warning if you're doing this. Keep Classical and Modern pronunciations separate. Learning any language requires effort. Only learn one if you really want to. Getting around Greece with just English is pretty easy. And let me tell you, Greece is an amazing country to visit, except for the Gypsies. If you haven't encountered Gypsies before, you'll know why Hitler tried to exterminate them when you do. No one likes Gypsies but themselves and delusional leftists. I'm not far right by 4chan standards. I just hate Gypsies. The Greeks do too. To be clear, normal, integrated, non-criminal Gypsies are fine.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 12:07:59 2022 No.21413300 >>21413233 Gerd R. Puin. I spent a few minutes looking for the quote. I found it on Wikipedia. Enjoy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Quran

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 12:36:13 2022 No.21413361 >>21413291 >To be clear, normal, integrated, non-criminal Gypsies are fine and rare

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 12:40:45 2022 No.21413371 File: 44 KB, 578x436, Trumpus+Maximus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21410979 carpe eam ex cunno

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 12:41:47 2022 No.21413375 >>21411572 thanks

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 13:03:23 2022 No.21413441

>>21413225
Perhaps I should have asked what anons would use as masterful examples in sacred scriptures. I think it can be somewhat comprehensible for me because I have read about some techniques employed in other languages. One example being an impressive palindrome in the Quran, and another example is from an anthology of Indian poetry I'm reading right now which illustrates a really complex simile. I have never heard of something like this about the Buddhist scriptures or the New Testament. I might add that I am asking this for the purpose of my interest in poetry and seeking inspiration from religious texts.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 13:33:05 2022 No.21413540 >>21410979 > amantibus se alis feminis Quis amat alias feminas, amicus tuus an puella sua?

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 14:50:24 2022 No.21413752

>>21413540
>amicus tuus
ille dixit "amicus ... factus sum", ille est amicus, non alius homo
>an puella sua
ita, ablativo absoluto prave usus est, mea sententia.
>se (illa) amante alias feminas
aut
>cum (illa) amaret alias feminas
aut
>(illa) amans alias feminas
ego scripsissem, sed non certus sum istas rectas esse

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 14:56:14 2022 No.21413766 >>21413441 the new testament was written with an extremely simple style, and I don't think romans and greeks had sacred texts in the same sense that those other religions have

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 14:57:15 2022 No.21413775 How good is the Latin here? > https://youtu.be/oARjKQZ0dVU

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 15:05:12 2022 No.21413790 >>21413775 seems correct to me but I'm not an expert

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 15:27:51 2022 No.21413859 >>21413775 The sentences are extremely simple ("You are the way, you are the light of life"), but I didn't see anything that's wrong.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 15:32:57 2022 No.21413878 >>21413766 >the new testament was written with an extremely simple style Can vouch that. Even if you only get 20% of an actual Classical text you could probably understand the Vulgate just fine. It is by far the easiest real Latin text out there.

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 15:50:24 2022 No.21413931

>>21413766
>>21413878
I do recall that being the case. Also, I excluded the Vulgate when I said that. I exclusively meant the Greek. I'm still interested in what others might have to say about the Old Testament and the Indian scriptures. Perhaps, the classical Chinese as well. I seem to remember the esoteric meanings of cuneiform texts are also intricate. I saw something about that on YouTube last week.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 15:51:53 2022 No.21413936 >>21413790 >>21413859 What about the pronunciation (what I was asking about anyway)?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 15:53:31 2022 No.21413942 >>21413936 Ecclesiastical, seems fine to me.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 16:51:04 2022 No.21414116 >>21413942 Cool.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 16:52:05 2022 No.21414121 >>21413790 >>21413859 >>21413942 Thanks a lot btw.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 16:56:22 2022 No.21414134 >mogs your favorite Latin speaker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6G6cKYCGrI

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 17:06:42 2022 No.21414176 >>21414134 you may not like it, but this is what peak indo-aryan latin sounds like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjF9Ard1gbE

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 17:13:50 2022 No.21414215 >>21414176 Out-mogged by an Abyssinian Girl > https://youtu.be/VKIBTcWs5ig

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 17:16:15 2022 No.21414224 >>21414176 >englisher accent saars....

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 17:51:33 2022 No.21414363 >>21414134 >"me pudet coram vobis [...] latine balbutire" >speaks what seems to be perfect latin with a slight accent come on

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 18:23:29 2022 No.21414497 >>21412761 Mayan glyphs are beautiful.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 18:25:29 2022 No.21414508 >>21414224 latinum americuissimus is absolute kino https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ8n_Y6bJ_s

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 19:21:23 2022 No.21414732

>>21411612
Modern Greek is worth learning in its own right desu. I started learning modern Greek before Ancient Greek and now I love modern Greek. But modern Greek is probably not worth the effort if you only know English because the beginner resources in English are needlessly bad. If you know French, Italian or German, then pick up the Assimil modern greek course in one of those langs.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 20:29:53 2022 No.21414998 >>21414732 Really? I grew up with tons of Greek classmates who went to Greek school on the weekends. Is the issue that the only English speakers learning Modern Greek are kids in schools, not autists working out of textbooks?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 20:33:18 2022 No.21415010 >>21414998 Idk. All the textbooks just suck, or are good but outdated.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 20:34:01 2022 No.21415014 >>21414508 >white >male >reaganite >first passable harvardian accent will women and PoCs ever close the trilled r gap? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFaszwKWWiE

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 22:58:13 2022 No.21415642 >>21413291 >The input method is largely bullshit for dead languages. Doesn't it just mean reading a lot, in practice? >Keep Classical and Modern pronunciations separate. Why do you say that?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:07:27 2022 No.21415681 Harvfags, in order from best to worst >>21415014 >>21414215 >>21414508 >>21414176

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:32:49 2022 No.21415765 >C. Iulius Cesar What does the "C." stand for? A G. would undoubtedly mean Gaius.

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:35:48 2022 No.21415777

> In Classical Chinese, "Zhīhū" (知乎) means "Know".
Is this true? 知 is "know" already, and 乎 should make it into a question, no? Doesn't it mean something like "Did you know?", then?

t. someone who knows like 3 Chinese characters

>>21415765
No, it's Gaius. The Romans introduced a G separate from C pretty late, but the C stuck around for as the abbreviation for Gaius.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:35:52 2022 No.21415778 >>21415765 To my understanding, C and G were not originally distinct letters until someone invented G as a variant to represent the voiced value; before that C could stand for /k/ or /g/.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:36:36 2022 No.21415782 File: 471 KB, 265x198, throwup.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21414508

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:38:34 2022 No.21415790 >>21415777 >>21415778 >The Romans introduced a G separate from C pretty late, but the C stuck around for as the abbreviation for Gaius. Interesting! I wonder if that suggests anything about the phonetics of that age.

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:39:25 2022 No.21415794

>>21415777
>Is this true? 知 is "know" already, and 乎 should make it into a question, no? Doesn't it mean something like "Did you know?", then?
Yeah pretty much.
>>21415790
Not really, as far as I know it's just something that happened for historical reasons to do with them getting their alphabet through Etruscan.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:41:37 2022 No.21415800 >>21415794 > Yeah pretty much. Uh, I take that as meaning that my conjecture is true and the Wikipedia quote is wrong. Thanks.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:43:48 2022 No.21415812 >>21415800 知乎 more or less means 'do/did you know', yeah.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:45:33 2022 No.21415815 >>21415812 Thanks again.

Anonymous Wed Dec 21 23:48:56 2022 No.21415823

>>21415790
yes, something like Etruscans not having have voiced /g/ in their phonetic repertoire and its variants, so old Greek gamma for them came to represent unvoiced /k/
Latins adopted it, but they like Greeks perceived the difference between /k/ and /g/, so eventually they adapted their own alphabet by adding a little leg to letter C to distinguish the two sounds, even though being native before this reform they knew when symbol "C" sounded like /k/ and when it sounded like /g/

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 02:09:34 2022 No.21416317 Is your Latin on par with Princeton scholars? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMfnw6oBq9w

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 04:04:16 2022 No.21416664 >>21416317 Where's that vomiting gif

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 04:10:58 2022 No.21416694 >>21416317 Fucking Americans t. american

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 05:03:53 2022 No.21416833 File: 56 KB, 661x772, 57AEF910-2648-4CF9-9AC8-B5C259119036.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The fuck is this? It’s Roman but it’s all Greek to me

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 06:08:37 2022 No.21416987 File: 7 KB, 150x150, 1671572764763093.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21416833 >VRIA >MAPIG >FAAA based

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 06:20:01 2022 No.21417012 >>21416833 Hygia ? ?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 07:50:56 2022 No.21417245 >>21417012 Maybe a health charm then? I might drop a bid

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 07:55:13 2022 No.21417253 >>21416833 Some kind of amulet or pendant probably with magical significance but making it out is impossible, where is it from Bottom left could be digamma?

Anonymous Thu Dec 22 08:09:43 2022 No.21417279

>>21417253
Very little info on it. It’s up for auction as a Roman pendant from a private collection. 1st-3rd century CE, I suppose it was from someone who spoke Greek if the appraisal is accurate. I’ll probably get priced out anyway. I don’t plan on spending more than $400

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 08:36:27 2022 No.21417333 >>21417279 Ὑγία μάρις numerals?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 15:22:53 2022 No.21418331 ὑψόσε σευέσθω

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 16:14:30 2022 No.21418502 >>21416317 Grim. The school has strong maths, physics and compsci, but this..

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 16:26:20 2022 No.21418543 >>21418502 >he doesn't know Classics majors at Princeton don't have to know Greek or Latin The grim is just beginning https://thecollegepost.com/princeton-removes-greek-latin/

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 16:27:32 2022 No.21418548 >ui: This diphthong occurs only in huius, cuius, huic, cui, hui. Elsewhere the two letters are spoken separately. is it true?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 18:52:27 2022 No.21419119 Me. Had a teacher for Latin. Studied Latin for a year. Still not good at all. The Jews have one this time.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 19:42:07 2022 No.21419341 >>21418548 seems so the more I think about it perfects like potui ought to be spelled as po.tu.i:

Anonymous Thu Dec 22 19:53:05 2022 No.21419400

>>21416664
>>21416694
>>21418502
How is this any different to someone learning a modern foreign language whilst retaining their native accent. Or foreigners learning English? It's funny when Russians go yes da is not good and cute when Japanese girls uooo I speaku anglishu yes??

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 19:56:06 2022 No.21419417 File: 97 KB, 680x680, 20c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21419400 >uooo I speaku anglishu yes??

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 20:14:14 2022 No.21419504 >>21419400 It isn't they're just seething

Anonymous Thu Dec 22 20:22:42 2022 No.21419549

>>21419400
>>21419504
>is this any different to someone learning a modern foreign language whilst retaining their native accent.
It sounds particularly egregious because they are not even trying. People at least try to do an accent when they speak Spanish, even a bad one. Anglos don't even attempt an Italic accent when speaking Latin. They just pronounce it like it's English rearranged in some kind of code. There's a difference between not being able to pronounce a sound because it's entirely absent from your phonology like the English "L" for Japanese people, and just not giving a fuck which is what those people are doing. Latin phonology is about as easy as it gets for foreign languages and yet people still find a way to drag their feet and refuse to put any effort into it. They are well within their right to do so - and we are within our rights to critique it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 20:23:59 2022 No.21419560 >>21417333 Seems to fit. Could it be mάρις as well? I ended up winning the bid so I’ve got some research to do

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 20:24:59 2022 No.21419565 >>21419549 >Anglos They're American Post dropped >No but I'm le hecking brown and we call English speaking people that. I do not care

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 20:27:22 2022 No.21419574 >>21416833 U/NGIA M/ERIA ?DAA

Anonymous Thu Dec 22 20:31:12 2022 No.21419593

>>21419400
> How is this any different to someone learning a modern foreign language whilst retaining their native accent. Or foreigners learning English?
There is no difference. I'm ESL, but some ESL accents are just as grating, and I'm including heavy accents from speakers of my native language here.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 20:49:15 2022 No.21419655 >>21418548 >cuius >huius doesn't the intervocalic i usually represent a geminated consonant?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 21:14:02 2022 No.21419768 >>21419655 yes, the diphthong is preserved as the first part of the geminated sound >/'cui.jus/

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 22:19:11 2022 No.21420031 File: 21 KB, 680x413, 73a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21419565 >No but I'm le hecking brown and we call English speaking people that. Unironically yes

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 22:25:22 2022 No.21420061 >>21419574 So possibly Maria? Way beyond my experience level so I’m just taking down every suggestion

Anonymous Thu Dec 22 23:44:53 2022 No.21420402
File: 84 KB, 274x326, 1671409160525823.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Are you supposed to read Plautus with meter like you do with the Aenid or what?
I don't mean they have the same meter of course, but while the hexameter of epic poetry is fairly easy to get used to, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be hearing a specific rhythm with Plautus or not

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 23:57:30 2022 No.21420459 >>21420402 I heard the meters of Plautus are super wonky. So yes, there is a meter, but I wouldn't worry about it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 22 23:59:09 2022 No.21420467 >>21419549 Aren't the subtle articulatory details of Classical Latin somewhat uncertain even if we basically know the phonology? Though I agree they weren't those of American English.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:04:29 2022 No.21420494

>>21420467
>Aren't the subtle articular details of Classical Latin somewhat uncertain even if we basically know the phonology?
I don't give a fuck about vowel quantity or elision or any of the so called "subtleties". I'm talking about the general cadence of their speech. The tone of voice is just flat American. Nobody cares about perfectly reconstructing 2,000 year old speech. That's actually their problem - they put 100% of their effort into observing useless (and arbitrary) linguistic reconstructions of how each individual syllable should sound, while not bothering to put a little Spanish or Italian rhythm into it.

When you don't do that, you sound like someone who doesn't speak Spanish reading off of a menu at a Mexican restaurant.
>Can we get two kaysodillers with extra kasso?

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:10:13 2022 No.21420522

>>21420494
How much can we actually know about the general cadence of ancient Roman speech? Do we know it resembled Spanish or Italian? It's been 2000 years, and Latin was spread in significant part by being learnt by non-native speakers. Wouldn't it be more likely that the rhythms of Spanish or Italian resemble those of the native languages of their ancestors before they were taught Latin? Maybe Italian less so. Think of the English-based pidgins spoken in places like Nigeria or Papua New Guinea- the speech rhythms and tone bear more resemblance to their original native languages than to those of Englishmen.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:11:31 2022 No.21420531

>>21420522
>How much can we actually know about the general cadence of ancient Roman speech? Do we know it resembled Spanish or Italian?
I guess you missed the part where I said:
> Nobody cares about perfectly reconstructing 2,000 year old speech.
It sounds bad. End of discussion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:13:43 2022 No.21420538 >>21420531 My point is if we don't know if reading it in a Spanish or Italian cadence actually sounds meaningfully closer to how the Romans would have spoken, what's the advantage?

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:21:09 2022 No.21420567

>>21420538
>My point is if we don't know if reading it in a Spanish or Italian cadence actually sounds meaningfully closer to how the Romans would have spoken
That's not what I'm saying. Idk if you are genuinely not understanding what I'm saying or if you are intentionally arguing against a stawman, but I'll try to explain this again.

I am NOT saying that talking like Mexican will make you sound like a "TRV ROMANVS". I don't care what a "true roman" 2,000 years ago would sound like. You do, that's nice, but you can argue with someone else about that because I am not saying Spanish is a identical to ancient speech. I am saying it sounds less jarring on the ears. Hearing someone from Minnesota with a thick midwest accent refuse to moderate their speech even an bit in ANY language is nails on a chalkboard to listen to, let alone Latin. Spanish or Italian are as close as we can guess IF that's important to you (as I've told you 3 or 4 times now, it's not important to me). It's as close as you can get without doing educated guessing and reconstructing things. Also I'm talking about accents not pronunciation itself. We have no idea what the accent would have been. I don't care. Italian sounds less horrendous. Spanish sounds less horrendous. No one wants to here you quote Cicero with a valley girl accent.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:25:31 2022 No.21420585 >>21420567 But why should we care what personally sounds less jarring to you?

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:27:15 2022 No.21420590

>>21420585
I don't remember saying that you should personally care about what is jarring to my ears. You replied to me asking about Classical phonology and I answered your reply. Why are you engaging with my opinion if you are just going to say "nobody cares about your opinion". Just keep scrolling then. It's like asking someone what they think about a piece of music and then saying "why should I care" when they don't give the opinion that you wanted to hear.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:30:00 2022 No.21420598 >>21420590 Because you're the one who made a comment criticizing them?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:30:48 2022 No.21420599 >>21420598 I explained my criticism because you asked me to. If you didn't want to hear my explanation, then you should not have replied to me asking for me to explain it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:37:28 2022 No.21420616 >>21420599 Out of curiosity, what's your opinion on simply using the traditional English pronunciation of Latin instead of trying to approximate the classical pronunciation in the nearest English sounds?

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:46:47 2022 No.21420644

>>21420616
It probably sounds less bad if you are so stubborn that you refuse to modify your accent. Better to not try at all if you don't like making foreign sounds for a foreign language. As someone above here said before "Do Classical well or don't do it at all". But again, this is a different question than accent. I don't have a preference for a pronunciation convention. I'm just saying with a American accent, if you are that lazy you might as well not even attempt to reconstruct anything.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 00:57:14 2022 No.21420690

>>21420402
There is a meter and it will help a bit if you learn it. Interestingly the main meter used, Iambic Senarii, is fairly similar to blank verse and also considered by the ancients to be the closest to actual Roman speech, which makes sense given how conversational Plautus' works are.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 03:00:45 2022 No.21421167

>Best way to learn is to pick a textbook and start reading it. Don't ask, just read
I want to learn Latin but solely Ecclesiastical. To avoid shitflinging about which book is best, between LLSPI or A Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin, which one should I start reading? The latter might seem obvious because I want an Ecclesiastical endeavor, but I've seen LLPSI treated here and elsewhere as the best place in general to start.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 03:59:14 2022 No.21421391

>>21421167
>between LLSPI or A Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin, which one should I start reading?
Not even the same thing. One is a graded reader and one is a grammar primer. It's like asking should you get a dictionary or a journal. If you are asking because you are poor, then get the primer and use the Vulgate for reading practice.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 04:01:10 2022 No.21421398

>>21416833
ΥΓΙΑ
ΜΑΡΙΣ
ΕΛΑΑ
The first character in line 1 can't be a nu, so it must be an upsilon. The last character in line 2 is definitely a sigma. They used to write them just like c's sometimes. The first character in line one looks like a digamma, but it could be a damaged epsilon.
If I was to translate this, I would say it means "Mary the healthy olive tree" or "Mary is a healthy olive tree" or vice-versa. Then again, it could be a number or a code, especially in light of the digamma that I am calling an epsilon.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 04:04:49 2022 No.21421415

>>21421167
I would just add a more in depth explanation of >>21421391
that LLPSI is not a textbook. It's a story with graded difficulty. It's reading practice to help build a base vocabulary. It's not a better or worse version of Collin's primer because they are not even the same kind of book. Wheelock is the same kind of book as Collin's primer. You can ask which is better Wheelock or Collins. You can't ask if Collins is better than Orberg because they don't do the "same thing" in "different ways". They do completely different things. You need reading experience and you need grammar. Use both if you can afford both, or just get the primer as previously said. A better analogy is basically that you asked if you should get a car with wheels or a car with doors.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 04:16:23 2022 No.21421441 >>21421415 It's not purely a graded reader, though, it DOES discuss grammar- in Latin.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 04:20:37 2022 No.21421450

>>21421441
>it DOES discuss grammar- in Latin.
Please can we not? It says "verbum deponens = "word". That is not an explanation. It doesn't explain what the fuck a deponent verb is or what the subjunctive is. It will just say "subjunctivus = videam. It does not explain it. It does not discuss it. If you want to say "it doesn't have to explain it" that is FINE if you are of that opinion, but you are a liar if you are saying that it explains anything. Theres a 40 dollar companion book that sells like crazy for a reason. People have no idea what the fuck is going on past the first 1/3 of the book without a teacher.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 04:27:55 2022 No.21421467 >>21421450 Based LLPSI record straightener, fuck LLPSI trannies

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 04:33:58 2022 No.21421483 >>21421450 It teaches it through examples that are specifically designed to clarify how they work. I also distinctly remember things like explaining the difference between the past and perfect periphrastically.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 05:24:24 2022 No.21421605 >>21421483 The book was designed to be used in a European classroom with a teacher. You can quote as many reddit posts as you want, you will never change this or your gender.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 06:00:11 2022 No.21421730 >>21421605 I managed to follow it on its own, though granted I did already speak Spanish.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 06:17:27 2022 No.21421776

>>21421398
Thank you, nice work. That translation isn’t far from what I’d expect of a charm. If it is a digamma, then that’s fascinating. From what I can tell, the dating would either be off to the tune of 1000 years and the culture incorrect, or it’s drawn from a tradition that goes back that far. There’s a very similar one with an aquila, so I’m leaning towards a Greek in Rome. I can get better pics once it arrives.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 06:23:32 2022 No.21421791 >>21421730 >granted I did already speak Spanish. People who speak an inflected language with a more typical IE grammatical system are at a huge advantage. You underestimate the training wheels that Anglos need just to learn Spanish.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 06:29:34 2022 No.21421801 https://youtu.be/a61Dc_EFuI4

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 07:19:18 2022 No.21421931 >>21414176 >>21414215 >>21414508 >>21415014 >>21416317 Why don't they teach the traditional English pronunciation of Latin?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 07:26:30 2022 No.21421958 File: 26 KB, 128x128, pepewW.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21409412 >nooo you can't just read the republic

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 08:44:41 2022 No.21422196

>>21421776
The digamma is used even today in Greek counting. Granted, it appears only in a few modern editions of classical texts to indicate chapter 6. Most editions use Roman numerals, not Greek nor Arabic. Digamma is a consonant that makes a wuh sound (and maybe further complicated stuff, which we don't want to get into here), so there's no way that wlaa makes sense as a word, but it could potentially, I'm not very familiar with Greek counting, be a number: 6+30+1+1 (38). Mary being an olive tree with that digamma actually being an epsilon makes more sense to me. We could go in the weeds a little deeper, especially since you think Mary refers to Jesus' mother, but I'm pretty sure it's the olive tree thing.
I'm interested in buying rather old things. I almost bid on a lot containing a couple Ethiopian texts and some metal objects this week. I never bid, and it went out of my price range. But in that same auction, there were a bunch of signet rings and cylinder seals. I really like the look of that stuff and cameos too. It looks like you might know a thing or two about them. What do you look for in terms of provenance and authenticity? Can you give any further information about your collecting? All the people that I know from university hate privately held antiquities and such, meaning they won't give advice. I'm very much of the opposite position. Several years ago, before even studying Classics, I think I looked at the online store of one of the most prolific and shitty forgery factories before some people at my university exposed it and the FBI shut them down. Thus, I'm quite concerned about provenance and doing my due diligence when a bunch of an item's value is wrapped up in it being really old or made by a particular person.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 09:05:13 2022 No.21422248 >>21421931 Because it basically died out in favor of reconstructed pronunciation. And Ecclesiastical (i.e. Italian) pronunciation in Catholic churches.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 09:23:27 2022 No.21422304 >>21421791 >IE grammatical system are at a huge advantage. Yo No they aren't rorke

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 09:24:42 2022 No.21422307 >>21421730 Fuuuuuck of wog

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 09:36:03 2022 No.21422338 >>21422307 Didn't say I'm a native Spanish speaker, I'm not.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 10:21:45 2022 No.21422464
File: 9 KB, 193x245, Worry.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21409393
Was there ever any important work written in Yiddish? For what was the dominant language among the Jewish diaspora for centuries, there isn't any major book in that language that comes to mind

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 10:25:44 2022 No.21422477
File: 20 KB, 348x499, 413yx6nO5+L._SX346_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21409506
Athenaze is the best way to learn greek if you actually put in the time. But the most important part of using the Italian Athenaze is using the Meletemata exercise books. They make it so you actually learn the grammar in an active way.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 10:35:36 2022 No.21422497

>>21422196
I’m going with that unless anyone happens to recognize it as something else. My best guess is an amulet meant to bestow health and well-being to the wearer, possibly related to the cult of Hygeia. It would be typical for the time period.
Authenticity is tough to verify. Even the best auction houses have sold fakes, and most don’t offer much of a provenance. Still, a reputable seller will be trustworthy enough because they have experts on staff. You can absolutely find real antiquities on ebay, but you will be burned at some point. It’s all about visual inspection and context. Someone who sells metal detector finds and who lives near a site is probably selling genuine artifacts. One with only nice pieces and very fair prices is sketchy, especially if some of those are Egyptian. If it’s not a reputable source, then you have to shop for sellers, not items.
I have a small collection from a few cultures, my best is probably Indus Valley

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 11:50:12 2022 No.21422732 How do I decide on a default accent for my Latin? Is there a sampler?

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 11:54:53 2022 No.21422742

>>21422464
Yiddish was only an important for some but not all European Jews. Then, there also were plenty of Jews living in Asia and Africa. I'm pretty sure Thessaloniki was the largest Jewish city in Europe. I do know the majority of the inhabitants were Sephardim and spoke Ladino (Judaeo-Spanish), not Yiddish. Kafka, for instance didn't write in Yiddish. Spinoza didn't. Yiddish only matters to a few Askenazim. Yiddish is overhyped.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 12:27:25 2022 No.21422825

>>21422464
> Was there ever any important work written in Yiddish?
Singer got a nobel prize, but since this is a classical language thread, I'll instead mention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovo-Bukh, a Chivalric romance from 1500.

It's in Old Yiddish, which seems different enough to have warranted a translation to Modern. Much less slavic influence back then, I guess.

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 12:45:19 2022 No.21422870

>>21422248
But they don't use those pronunciations, or they use them both at the same time rather. I'm just saying, instead of butchering the the Reconstructed and Ecclesiastical pronunciations with their Anglo accents (I'm not being mean, it's clear that they aren't really attempting to use the correct accent), why don't they just speak with the traditional English one?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 14:38:18 2022 No.21423169 >>21421391 >>21421415 thank you anons for the clarification. merry christmas to you

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 16:39:16 2022 No.21423557 >>21420531 Latin with a Scottish/Irish like accent I imagine with the Gauls because of this post. Probably possible since Celtic and Italic are related.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 16:43:51 2022 No.21423569 >>21421167 Maybe just learn the other types of Latin because they’re diaelects pretty much. It won’t be that hard and I don’t really see why you’d regret it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 16:55:50 2022 No.21423605 >> >> >> >> say/write it in latin

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 17:04:37 2022 No.21423648 >>21421415 a car with wheels obviously, how's that even a question which one is llpsi, the wheels or the doors?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 17:07:04 2022 No.21423656 >>21422307 you're learning a wog classical language though

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 17:30:33 2022 No.21423735 So many translations are poor for comparison its actually shocking

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 17:44:08 2022 No.21423774 >>21423656 Rorke

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 18:43:10 2022 No.21424029

>Neque ego hac nocte longiorem me vidisse censeo,
>nisi item unam, verberatus quam pependi perpetem;
the "pependi" here by itself could be a perfect of two verbs, pendeo and pendo, I've seen the phrase translated as the former, so with the meaning of "the night when I was beaten hanged upside down"
but given the structure wouldn't it make sense to interpret it as "pendo", which has also the transitive meaning of "esteem"??
or maybe the double accusative "pendo X Y" doesn't work??
>I don't think I ever saw a night longer than this one,
>except for one, which, while/having being beaten, I deemed endless

Anonymous Fri Dec 23 20:28:14 2022 No.21424585
File: 446 KB, 1000x601, Jugnitz page 305.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

did you ever say to yourself "damn i wish I could read some church documents to practice my latin"? fear not i've found an entire book of those recently

https://www.dbc.wroc.pl/dlibra/publication/19954/edition/17744/content

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 22:10:42 2022 No.21425040 >>21424585 No I haven't

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 23 22:54:04 2022 No.21425200 >>21422870 Because it fell out of use, like I said.

Anonymous Sat Dec 24 00:02:59 2022 No.21425482
File: 59 KB, 1024x556, prffftprt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Some time ago I asked here which one is the classical language with the smuttiest works. Back then I wrote
> I thought Literary Chinese would have a shot with The Plum in the Golden Vase, but I see now that it's written in Vernacular.
but I see now that I was completely blindsided by the amount of stuff there is!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_literature#Asian_erotic_fiction
(Not all of these are Classical Chinese, but a good number seem to be).

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 00:06:30 2022 No.21425504 Is the reconstruction of proto-italic more valid and trustworthy than the reconstruction of proto-indo-european?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 00:08:49 2022 No.21425516 >>21425504 On the one hand, it's closer in time to historically attested languages. On the other hand, there's only one really well-attested Italic language, while we have extensive attestation of IE languages from multiple branches.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 00:10:37 2022 No.21425528 >>21424029 >>except for one, which, while/having being beaten, I deemed endless it makes perfect sense imho, more than >"the night when I was beaten hanged upside down" (does pendeo perpetem makes any sense? isn't pendeo intransitive?)

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 00:14:24 2022 No.21425547 >>21425528 >perpetem unless it refers to unam (noctem) quam

Anonymous Sat Dec 24 00:20:00 2022 No.21425572
File: 18 KB, 344x342, 1646184687351.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21425528
>>21425547
indeed
but still it doesn't really make much sense to me
the default translation on Perseus goes
>I do not think that I have ever seen a longer night than this, except one of like fashion, which livelong night I was hanging up, having been first whipped
but also an Italian translation I looked up and the French one on Wikisource seem to also suggest this meaning, a German one as well(though I guess they may be drawing from the same well), so I'm not sure if I'm missing something, if it's some interesting wordplay maybe where one interprets it as meaning both

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 00:23:39 2022 No.21425585 >>21425572 Might be worth a try to track down a modern (i.e., not yet public domain) translation.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 00:34:19 2022 No.21425622 File: 522 KB, 750x740, 1607289468346.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Where tf do I get a PDF or eBook of Macrobius' Saturnalia in Latin? I checked the mega, libgen and gutenberg

Anonymous Sat Dec 24 04:24:07 2022 No.21426248

What is a good way for someone with good experience with romance languages to learn Italian? I know Latin and Spanish, and I'm planning to learn Italian in order to read the Italian Athenaze, but most of Italian learning resources I find on the web are anglophonic-focused, and I think I could take advantage of knowing some romance languages to learn Italian quickly.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 04:42:19 2022 No.21426309 >>21426248 Start reading the Divine Comedy with a dictionary. Thomas Jefferson learned Spanish using his knowledge of French and Latin by reading Don Quixote with a dictionary.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 05:51:10 2022 No.21426509 Latin or Greek?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 05:56:50 2022 No.21426537 >>21426509 Are you a woman? Neither. Are you a man? Both.

Anonymous Sat Dec 24 05:59:31 2022 No.21426552

>>21426537
Yeah, it's hard to decide. I feel more drawn to Latin, it seems culturally closer and more interesting from a linguistic perspective especially since I can kind-of read French already.
But there's tons of Greek philosophy I want to read while I'm not really dying to read Caesar's Commentaries or anything.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 09:14:03 2022 No.21427066 >>21409393 >Classical Languages Is there anything more pretentious? More attention seeking than this?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 09:14:57 2022 No.21427070 >>21427066 How do you figure?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 09:29:10 2022 No.21427101 >>21427066 >studying something alone is attention seeking Yikes

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 10:38:32 2022 No.21427234 >>21425622 try thelatinlibrary and Anna's archive

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 12:38:49 2022 No.21427583 >>21426248 Just read L'italiano secondo il metodo natura. It's like LLPSI, but without grammatical sections at all, which you won't need if you already know Spanish.

Anonymous Sat Dec 24 14:07:52 2022 No.21427867

From Catullus 36:
> Nunc, ō caeruleō creāta pontō,
> quae sanctum Īdalium Ūriōsque apertōs
> quaeque Ancōna Cnidumque harundinōsam
> colis, quaeque Amathunta, quaeque Golgōs,
> quaeque Durrachium Hadriae tabernam,
> acceptum face redditumque vōtum,
> sī nōn illepidum neque invenustum est.

Everyone translates the beginning to something like
> Now, o [Venus],
> who haunts [list of places]
But there's no verb corresponding to haunting in the original, in fact there's no verb at all. None of the commentaries I found even mention an implicit verb in this sentence.
Is this kind of address to gods so common that it's not even worth picking apart? Does someone know any other examples from other authors in the same format (i.e., the god or pronoun in the nominative, and a list of places in the accusative, without any verb)?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 14:22:54 2022 No.21427920 >>21427867 >in fact there's no verb at all colis?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 14:29:15 2022 No.21427944 >>21427920 Oh shit, thanks! (I read it as "collis", assumed it belonged to one of the locations, and ignored it.)

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 15:24:10 2022 No.21428169 >>21425622 >wikipedia >external links >http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Macrobius/Saturnalia/home.html

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 17:36:49 2022 No.21428545 Why the fuck does web browser render my "。" as "曷" if change the writing direction to vertical?

Anonymous Sat Dec 24 20:11:25 2022 No.21429033

>>21409393
So I decided to learn some Greek just in case of future learning and it’s easy compared to some other IE languages. Maybe it’s the more complex rules that make challenging but it seems easy. It’s really different from the other european languages.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 22:25:32 2022 No.21429533 I know there are some romancefags lurking here, so I would very much appreciate hearing you alls pronunciation of Latin.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 24 22:41:48 2022 No.21429596 >>21428545 Your browser has a vertical writing option?

Anonymous Sat Dec 24 23:04:24 2022 No.21429660
File: 45 KB, 240x380, Image-Al-Kitāb_al-muḫtaṣar_fī_ḥisāb_al-ğabr_wa-l-muqābala.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Christmas, or whatever you celebrate at this time of the year, greetings. Anons, I am an aspiring scholar on the history of mathematics. I have a good grounding in classical Greek and Latin, but I also want to acquire at least minimal reading comprehesion when engaging with mathematical texts from the medieval muslim world. Should I study classical Arabic grammar and vocabulary or is Standard Modern Arabic grammar close enough to read Al-Kwarismi's Algebra treatise or Alhazen geometry texts with some adaptation?

Anonymous Sat Dec 24 23:23:18 2022 No.21429708

>>21429596
You can set the writing direction in the CSS (writing-mode).
Anyway, I solved my problem simply by installing another Chinese font.
No idea how the previously chosen font could fuck up things this badly. Or maybe there's still some linguistic reason for why this is allowed.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 02:20:37 2022 No.21430215 File: 135 KB, 550x535, 1661506203547828.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21429033

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 02:36:49 2022 No.21430263 >>21426309 >>21427583 Thanks for the recommendations, and merry christmas to all!

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 09:04:03 2022 No.21431299 So above you all were saying reading the Vulgate is a good place to practice Latin. Which would be the easiest books? Old or new is fine. Also, it's not too far from 1st century BC Latin is it?

Anonymous Sun Dec 25 09:22:59 2022 No.21431330

>>21409393
Why does Gothic have no independent literature? It seems like something of more note as the main east germaniac language. There’s not really anything besides some writings and the Bible. Is there any real reason to learn if there only thing of note is ‘destroying’ Rome.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 10:24:20 2022 No.21431431 >>21431299 I would say Vulgate Latin and 1st century BC Latin are quite different.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 11:21:26 2022 No.21431552 File: 108 KB, 1200x1200, 1671872995329273.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Wishing your Latin bros a "happy Saturnalia": based or cringe?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 11:26:09 2022 No.21431566 File: 1.32 MB, 671x863, 1669870284399.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21431552 it's pronounced Nātīvitās, pagan

Anonymous Sun Dec 25 12:32:27 2022 No.21431729

>>21431330
>Why does Gothic have no independent literature?
Because nobody bothered to preserve whatever else there might have existed.
> Is there any real reason to learn if there only thing of note is ‘destroying’ Rome.
Philology, and you can read a few modern exercises, notably poems from Tolkien.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 13:30:21 2022 No.21431829 >>21431729 It seems really similar to north and west Germanic grammar. Like if someone just combined the two. How deep does the influence go on into the Romance languages, if we even know?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 14:07:15 2022 No.21431874 >>21431552 Saturnalia happened a week ago

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 19:11:08 2022 No.21432660 File: 93 KB, 1070x728, 6qe_w_K77h8a-Gf9hTee5Afo4bxnnqmSJXukZLSRObk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] has someone here read all of those?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 19:14:41 2022 No.21432675 >>21432660 forgot to ask, do you think it's worth the time? it seems like after the fabulae syrae (which I liked btw) the books are mostly composed of selected original texts with annotations

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 19:36:55 2022 No.21432740 Is there some heuristic to easily tell whether some text is classical or modern Chinese? Like, for example, in Hebrew, if the text is full of של (or its declensions), then you can be very sure it's modern.

Anonymous Sun Dec 25 19:39:19 2022 No.21432743

>>21432660
>>21432675
I've only done two or three of the authentic readers.
> forgot to ask, do you think it's worth the time?
Well, you presumably want to read the texts they're based on anyway if you're learning Latin? So you might just as well read the annotated selections first.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 19:42:22 2022 No.21432750 >>21432740 > then you can be very sure it's modern or Mishnaic, but whatever.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 19:52:20 2022 No.21432782 File: 55 KB, 354x419, 1642667906701.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21431431 Bummer. That's also a time of interest. But I want to read the Vulgate too. Do you know which part might be easiest to start?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 21:22:04 2022 No.21433094 >>21432750 >no classical hebre but... Le simpler classical hebrew Based retard

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 21:24:08 2022 No.21433105 >>21409393 Νιγγερ

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 21:26:11 2022 No.21433118 >>21433094 I don't understand what you're trying to say. few של -> Biblical lots של -> not Biblical

Anonymous Sun Dec 25 22:13:01 2022 No.21433293

>>21432782
I'm not that anon, but have you read those Eliade books? Are they worth reading (and what about for a person who's read the first four Stories of Civilization by the Durants)?
Otherwise I haven't read the Vulgate, but I'm guessing starting with a shorter book with a fairly simple plot like Ruth sounds reasonable.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 22:44:29 2022 No.21433378 >>21432782 Also not that Anon, but to be clear: the problem is with going from the Vulgate to 1st century BC Latin, the other way is fine. No need to search for an easiest book if you can already read Caesar.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 23:37:58 2022 No.21433564 >>21421931 >Why don't they teach the traditional English pronunciation of Latin? Because it sounds terrible.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 25 23:55:37 2022 No.21433637 >>21432743 thanks for your answer >I've only done two or three of the authentic readers do you remember if those texts were very different from the originals, or if they were just selected an annotated?

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 00:03:32 2022 No.21433674

>>21433637
The selections are mostly, but not always, cut at paragraph boundaries, but as far as I can tell the text that does end up in the reader is unmodified. (Of course there will still be minor differences like you would expect across editions, but that's classical languages.)

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 00:04:42 2022 No.21433677 >>21431566 I wonder if learning Latin in the present day attracts a disproportionate number of actual pagans. I knew at least on Kemetic pagan who was learning Egyptian for religious reasons.

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 00:13:18 2022 No.21433718

>>21433293
No, sorry they are on my to read list. I just wanted a somewhat appropriate pic. They come highly recommended though. I do like Ruth, so I'll try that.

>>21433378
Ok, good to know. Does it always go that way? Would 5th century BC work for both, but not the other way?

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 00:13:19 2022 No.21433720

>>21432740
If you see a bunch of 的, 了, 這, 個, 你, 就, 沒, 他, 那, 們, 嗎, 吧 it's modern. If you see a bunch of 矣, 曰, 則, 乃, 乎, 哉, 焉 or sentence-final 也, it's probably Classical. It's a little harder for a layman to tell something is definitely classical than to tell it's definitely modern, because modern Chinese borrows a lot from Classical, much like the Romance languages borrow a lot from Latin.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 00:19:28 2022 No.21433744 >>21433720 Oh also 的, 了, 這, 個, 你, 就, 沒, 他, 那, 們, 嗎, 吧 in Simplified is 的, 了, 这, 个, 你, 就, 没, 他, 那, 们, 吗, 吧. And then 矣, 曰, 則, 乃, 乎, 哉, 焉, 也 is 矣, 曰, 则, 乃, 乎, 哉, 焉, 也.

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 00:28:19 2022 No.21433763

>>21433677
That seems unlikely; if anything Latin attracts way more tradcath larpers. The vast majority of people don't recgonise any real difference between Greek and Roman gods and just see the Romans as having copied the Greeks and changing the names. I can't say I've ever seen a pagan worshipping specifically the Roman gods and not the Greek ones, and I imagine most grecoroman pagans would just learn Greek instead because it's the "original".

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 00:32:13 2022 No.21433777

>>21433718
> Ok, good to know. Does it always go that way? Would 5th century BC work for both, but not the other way?
We have very little Latin from before the classical era, mostly Plautus, who isn't even that old. I'm not sure there's much that makes Late Latin easier per se, it's just that the Vulgate is written in an easier (or at least a more familiar) style.

>>21433720
>>21433744
Wow, thanks! I better save this list away somewhere.
So, I should have been more precise: What I'm really interested in is in being able to tell whether a given pre-1919 text uses classical or vernacular Chinese, even if it's technically written in literary Chinese.

(But I can barely pick my way through parts of 孔子, so it's possible I'm having some misconceptions about Chinese to begin with.)

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 00:56:34 2022 No.21433839 >>21433674 thanks fren

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 01:42:48 2022 No.21433959 >>21433777 That would basically be what this list would help distinguish, yes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 02:12:09 2022 No.21434060 Does pronouncing Visarga without repeating the previous vowel break poetic meters? I don't like that echo-ish effect.

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 05:45:43 2022 No.21434693

I'm on Chapter 10 of Lingua Latina per se Illustrata. I recently started copying down complete chapters and labeling the accusativus, genetivus, dativus and ablativus along with pronomen; Connecting each with arrows according to their relation. How possible is it to reach Chapter 20 by the end of January? Quite possible, right?

Good luck all, and Merry Christmas

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 08:14:52 2022 No.21434995 File: 1.32 MB, 865x1481, 1671528294360920.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] What is the best book to learn ancient (koine) greek from? And where can I get it?

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 08:25:05 2022 No.21435023

>>21434693
>How possible is it to reach Chapter 20 by the end of January?
I'm on 25 and it's very possible. I almost finished the book this month, but was slacking hard. You can honestly get farther than that. Most of the chapters after 13 are not that bad and won't take more than a few days. Some chapters barely add any vocab and are only a few pages because they introduce a new tense or person. If you are already familiar with the basics of Latin grammar, you can breeze through them since they are less of a slog and aren't too heavy on the vocab. You do start to slow down again in the early 20s just a warning.

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 08:50:34 2022 No.21435067

>>21432782
I'm the anon who replied to you. The Vulgate is both easy and real Latin. It is somewhat compromised Latin, since it is trying to emulate Hebrew (and Greek, but Greek emulation is common) at times, but it is more real than the LLPSI or Winnie Ille Pu. Reading any Latin that will hold your interest is a worthwhile way of using your time. I saw you say you like Ruth. I haven't read Ruth since reading it from a children's Bible, so I can't comment on how hard it would be in Latin. Since it's short and something that interests you, I'd say good choice. I'd also like to recommend Mark. He is really easy to read in Greek and Latin. That isn't to put you down if it isn't so easy for you. I don't know where you are in your Latin journey.
If you wanted 1st century authors, for prose, you could read Cicero (or Caesar), and for poetry, I'd first recommend Catullus, Vergil, and Ovid. But by all means, read the Vulgate. It'll be good for you too.
I haven't read Eliade, but I've thoroughly enjoyed some tangential authors. Enjoy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 09:55:54 2022 No.21435181 >>21435067 >but it is more real than the LLPSI or Winnie Ille Pu. Why is Winnie Ille Pu always catching strays in this thread?

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 10:32:43 2022 No.21435220

>>21433777
Nta, but you should know that *early* pre-classical Chinese does not use 矣 or 也. Its nominal sentences use 維 / 唯 / 惟 as a positive copula and 非 as a negative one.

There's quite a bit of variation in literary Chinese. "Classical Chinese" as a language typically refers to the literary language used in texts from the 5th to 3rd century BC (the essential educational assets of subsequent centuries and millennia were created during this period, hence "classical").
To get a feeling for just how much the literary language generally varies, I'll quote: https://hxwd.org/concept.html?uuid=uuid-418ea48e-b91f-4303-8076-be3ca87f9da5 (I highly recommend using this site, btw)
>The final particle yě 也 is interpreted by some as a sentence-final copula, but it is properly regarded as a sentential particle marking non-narrative modes of predication.
>The standard copula in Warring States Chinese is wéi 為, which tends to have human subjects and is by no means as common in Chinese as the copula is in Western languages.
>Yuē 曰 is current as a copula in listings of items and the like.
>Yún 云 is a rare archaising copula in ZUO.
>Zé 則 is copula-like after contrastive subjects.
>Nǎi 乃 is copula-like and contrastive and stresses that the subject is none other than the predicate.
>Dāng 當 "act as, fulfill the function of" is copula-like, but there is only a slight degree of grammaticalisation in the direction of a copula.
>Wèi 謂 "be counted as, count as" sometimes moves in the direction of copula-like uses.
>Shì 是 is a resumptive demonstrative pronoun which on very rare occasions can come to function very much as a copula.
>Zhòng 中 has some copula-like uses in GUAN, when the word means "amount to, cost" and sometimes even stands before ordinary nominal predicates.
>Yǐ 以 "as a SUBJECT" functions quite regularly as a subordinate copula in classical Chinese.
And that's just something as basic as copula (not to mention, only a few ones at that). Also, keep in mind these characters all have dozens of different context-dependent definitions too.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 10:58:10 2022 No.21435264 Xenophon is surprisingly easy so far. How much harder does Greek prose get? Who's the gold standard for Greek, like Cicero for Latin?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 11:28:41 2022 No.21435316 >>21435264 >Who's the gold standard for Greek As in difficulty or style? Thucydides is easily the hardest writer, while (imo) Demosthenes and Plato are the greatest prose stylists.

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 12:41:01 2022 No.21435448

>>21433959
>>21435220
Thanks again, to both of you.
Early Chinese writings are fortunately easily identified because they're so rare.
I'm more concerned with Ming writings, where vernacular seemed to creep into the literary language, and Wikipedia often doesn't mention language other than plain "Chinese".
The reason for my question was that, having looked a bit into Classical Chinese, I'm wondering how far it will take me. I'm pretty sure I'll never learn vernacular.

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 17:34:37 2022 No.21436142

Has someone here learnt greek (or latin) only after having achieved proficiency in the other language? It seems that both are usually taught at the same time in highschool and college courses, but I was wondering if learning one of them only after having mastered the other would make the learning process easier. They seem to share quite a few grammatical features which are lost in contemporary european languages, similar to how contemporary european languages share some grammatical features which may have evolved independently and are absent in ancient languages, like the use of the verb to have (haben, avere, haber, avoir, ter) to form perfect tenses.

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 18:32:01 2022 No.21436290

>>21436142
needless to say that learning a language is after all a never ending process, I started Greek after reaching a decent level of proficiency in Latin, that I think was generally the norm historically, at least in Europe
it definitely does help, even if after all the two tongues diverged quite early
if self-learning, I'd recommend starting with one only

Anonymous Mon Dec 26 19:18:22 2022 No.21436418

>>21436142
>Has someone here learnt greek (or latin) only after having achieved proficiency in the other language?
Not the kind of people who argue online about Latin & Greek, no. Most of these people failed high school French. They get everything they know about language learning from YouTube vloggers and then they just repeat it when 'educating' others on how "true acquisition" works.

Basically it's like listening to a virgin who watches a lot of porn lecture you about how to please a woman. The way they describe language learning is virtually all second hand.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 19:46:02 2022 No.21436522 >>21436290 >it definitely does help, even if after all the two tongues diverged quite early interesting, thanks

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 19:56:11 2022 No.21436559 Monks all learned Latin by studying grammar mainly syntax despite what many Latin book publishers write in their awful books today.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 19:57:12 2022 No.21436564 >>21435264 Plato is meant to be the best

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 20:39:35 2022 No.21436714 Any of you guys have any experience with ancient Celtic languages? Their poetic forms seem intricate which interest me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 20:49:49 2022 No.21436745 >>21436559 >syntax do you mean morphology? https://youtu.be/a61Dc_EFuI4?t=1509

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 26 20:55:00 2022 No.21436772 >>21436745 Please > Ignore shitposters, do not feed the trolls it's the same bait every thread.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 01:38:32 2022 No.21437688 File: 274 KB, 720x521, 1644336480322.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] fratros... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5G9gQdtSyY

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 03:01:33 2022 No.21437912 >>21435448 Classical Chinese is a broad umbrella, but everything up to around the Han or so is pretty unambiguously under it, and most formal writing until the May Fifth movement is.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 03:04:02 2022 No.21437922 >>21437688 Somehow when I hear Latin in a Spanish accent it just feels like I'm listening to really old-fashioned Spanish.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 03:33:41 2022 No.21437998 Don't know if you're reading this Ethiopian anon, but thank you so much for the Weingreen answer key. >>21437688 Sounds exactly like Spanish, but I find that cute

Anonymous Tue Dec 27 05:08:55 2022 No.21438217

>>21436714
Not an expert or even avid but there’s alot sixth century welsh poetry and irish poets around the centuries until late 1800. Taliesin and Aneirin are of major note for Welsh. I mention Welsh and Irish because Pictish died before anything of note and all goidelic languages spawned from Irish and Brythonic from Welsh so they general have more. Breton and Scottish Gaelic have a bit too but not as much. Not much point to learn Cornish or Manx unless you live there or want to learn all Celtic languages since they lack historical and literary and even speakers to learn.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 07:28:56 2022 No.21438568 >>21437688 She's da best

Anonymous Tue Dec 27 12:59:58 2022 No.21439110

>>21436418
>Basically it's like listening to a virgin who watches a lot of porn lecture you about how to please a woman. The way they describe language learning is virtually all second hand.
This is the best way to describe such people. I'm going to remember this.

Anonymous Tue Dec 27 13:30:49 2022 No.21439160

>>21437998
>Don't know if you're reading this Ethiopian anon, but thank you so much for the Weingreen answer key.
You're welcome. I'm here frequently, but I don't often sign my posts. Suggestions, includimg yours, for expanding the ANE library are appreciated. I have a growing collection of files in my personal library, but simply uploading everything I have wouldn't make sense, and in the case of the Weingreen answer key, I didn't have one, although it is a good thing to have. Good luck with learning Hebrew.
By the way, you'll be hearing from me in the near future.
t. Ethiopianon

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 13:46:17 2022 No.21439193 >>21439110 he's one of such "virgins" itself, though

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 13:50:35 2022 No.21439199 >>21436745 No I don't

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 13:54:00 2022 No.21439209 >>21436714 >>21436714 >ancient No ancient materials in any Celtic language exist apart from names and random tablets

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 13:58:35 2022 No.21439220 >>21439209 I thought that denomination was incorrect after I said it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 14:06:52 2022 No.21439248 >>21439220 Ancient generally means in Celtic languages before Christianity because around that time they all became heavily simplified in grammar.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 14:15:07 2022 No.21439273 >>21439248 I meant to refer to the language of the literature on the mythology. The old poetry.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 14:17:36 2022 No.21439277 >>21439273 Then there's probably nothing you'd like to read. Certainly not worth years of effort to understand it

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 14:21:49 2022 No.21439291 >>21439277 Why not? For some reason, I thought Irish and Welsh had a rich compendium of poetry.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 14:29:21 2022 No.21439306 >>21439291 So you know basically nothing about it yet want to study

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 14:32:59 2022 No.21439318 >>21439306 That's how many people learn.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 14:39:50 2022 No.21439343 Where to start with Classical Chinese? I can read modern okay but only really in conversation/everyday communications, not academic or formal works, and certainly not literary.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 14:42:02 2022 No.21439355 >>21439318 Have fun giving up soon

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 14:52:17 2022 No.21439387 >>21439291 Most intelligent /lit/ poster

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 15:09:49 2022 No.21439453 >>21439199 then you're wrong

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 15:17:16 2022 No.21439481 >>21439453 The monks were lying in their records then

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 17:17:26 2022 No.21439903 >>21439481 post primary source then, let's see that syntax

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 19:04:17 2022 No.21440380 What's the best online dictionary for Greek? Currently using logeion.uchicago.edu/

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 19:42:58 2022 No.21440587 >>21440380 logeion for detecting forms LSJ for reference https://lsj.gr/wiki/Main_Page

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 19:56:13 2022 No.21440653 >>21437688 Cute. If you intended to imply there's anything wrong with this, you should at least have used an actual Latin word.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 20:04:53 2022 No.21440701 >>21420494 Agreed. This is why the Italian Ecclesiastical pronunciation is the best. Not because it's accurate, but because it's pleasant and has a natural rhythm.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 21:10:53 2022 No.21441016 >>21439248 Old Irish grammar is already pretty ridiculous, are you saying Primitive Irish was even worse?

Anonymous Tue Dec 27 21:14:44 2022 No.21441027

>>21439343
Personally I started with this textbook, though it's old enough that it uses Wade-Giles, which you may find inconvenient.
https://archive.org/details/introductiontoli00branuoft
For other resources, r/classicalchinese has a wiki page with a bunch of links to resources; Lexicity has an Old Chinese section and Lexilogos has some Classical Chinese materials mixed into its general 'Chinese' section.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 21:17:18 2022 No.21441043 >>21416317 That's actually deka glossai. He's probably more based than you, fag.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:12:15 2022 No.21441235 >>21441043 Hi Joseph. Fix yout Latin pronunciation, it's disgusting.

Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:13:25 2022 No.21441240

>>21440701
That's actually not what I was saying at all. I was saying people who have pleasant accents with natural rhythm tend to use it. The accent itself is nothing special. Reconstructed tends to be used by people with shit anglo accents. Therefore they make it sound worse than it actually is. Correlation is not causation.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:15:28 2022 No.21441250 >>21439291 Welsh does, Irish does not. Classical Gaelic has some, but Welsh has more Celtic stuff that isn't overtly Christian.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:17:20 2022 No.21441259 >>21439193 >he >itself For context, this guy is accusing people of not knowing how to learn a language.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:18:39 2022 No.21441265 File: 56 KB, 715x402, XXEverywhere.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21441043 >>21441235 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=61Kk7VkoWbc

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:21:12 2022 No.21441275 >>21441259 I was assaulted by doubts about "its" humanity mid sentence

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:22:59 2022 No.21441282 >>21441275 Nice save, but please use punctuation next time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:44:11 2022 No.21441365 Guys. Latin or Greek? I'm too retarded for both. So just pick one for me. I've spent the entire day trying deciding which one will be my autistic obsession for 2023.

Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:49:57 2022 No.21441384

>>21441365
why are you even thinking about learning any of them in the first place?? what interests you?? that should usually be the main motivator to choose one over the other
in any case, assuming you are westerner, everything else being equal, Latin will be the easier one for a beginner

Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:51:47 2022 No.21441392

>>21441365
Start with Latin. Greek grammar will mirror it, but have twice as many forms and a significantly larger vocabulary for each author with much fewer cognates than Latin has with English. You will basically have an English word that comes from damn near every Latin word. Greek will be far more challenging in every regard besides syntax.

Do not ask what textbook to use. Buy any Latin textbook and work through it. If you ask for textbook recommendations, you are a faggot. You cannot complete a Latin textbook and not know Latin unless you are a literal moron, therefore anything from a reputable publisher will work.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:52:18 2022 No.21441394 >>21441384 I just want to read cool untranslated shit

Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:56:23 2022 No.21441409

>>21441394
I'm pretty sure except maybe some inscriptions or boring linear B tablets everything from ancient Greece that is extant has been translated, while for Latin you'll have more obscure stuff from the middle ages(of doubtful interest in many cases I geuss), though from its classical period you also have more or less everything translated.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 22:56:52 2022 No.21441412 >>21441392 >>21441384 Thanks bros

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 23:04:24 2022 No.21441439 >>21441016 Alot of Old Irish is in German interestingly enough. The closest tongue in the continent is German for non-Celtic German and Irish have very similar rules for some reason.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 23:07:02 2022 No.21441449 >>21441439 What the fuck are you talking about? They're from entirely separate branches of the Indo-European family.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 23:09:47 2022 No.21441461 >>21441449 I said for some reason. I don’t know why. Some germans have an easier time learner Irish then Welsh.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 27 23:12:00 2022 No.21441467 >>21441461 Where can I find out more about this?

Anonymous Tue Dec 27 23:18:51 2022 No.21441483

>>21441467
Mostly in german studies. I learned this from Jackson Crawford’s podcast on Celtic and Norse. Looked at some German studies on european languages and they account for strange connections in Old and Modern Irish to German and West Germaniac. Probably conversion from old Proto-Central European days.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 00:52:29 2022 No.21441904 >>21441027 Thanks pal. I'll check those out.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 01:08:54 2022 No.21441986 >>21439306 >So you are basically starving to death yet want food

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 04:41:57 2022 No.21442738 >>21409393 How similar would say Greek and Latin are. At least percent wish. Or how much Greek influenced Latin.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 04:44:10 2022 No.21442749 >>21442738 In grammar, quite a bit. In form and vocab, not really.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 06:00:42 2022 No.21443021

my uncle who claims he knows more latin than me because he studied it 60 years ago in seminary just gave me "ego sta amandum te" as an example of the similarity of latin to modern spanish. the irony is "yo estoy amando te" isn't even a well formed sentence in spanish.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 06:11:51 2022 No.21443059

>>21441392
I think starting with Greek might be the best bet for >>21441384. One would assume that he is using autistic figuratively, but he is committing himself to either language for the next year on a whim. That could be autistic. In that case, I think Greek is the autist's language of choice. Don't let something as silly as a different alphabet hold you back. Fraternity and sorority members have to learn the alphabet too.
Unlike the anon before me, I will make a textbook recommendation. Anything but Athenaze. It's the worst language textbook I've used. I hated it, and my university is abandoning it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 06:15:07 2022 No.21443070 >>21441409 Much of Galen is untranslated. Also, when the anon gets to reading real Latin and Greek, he'll find that translations aren't perfect and that knowing language yourself is highly beneficial to understanding a text.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 06:23:10 2022 No.21443100 >>21443059 It's crazy how many fraternity and sorority members I've talked to didn't even know what their organization's letters stand for.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 06:30:22 2022 No.21443127

>>21443059
>Anything but Athenaze. It's the worst language textbook I've used. I hated it, and my university is abandoning it.
The new language echo chamber online is the worship of Athenaze. Literally never heard a single bad thing about it and I 100% believe you that it sucks because of how cultishly it is pushed in the same circles as...well you know...the other book for that other language written in a similar fashion.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 06:43:42 2022 No.21443171 So what's the best book or method for learning Ancient Greek? There's a million resources in the OP but no structure or guidance.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 07:54:39 2022 No.21443367

>>21443059
>>21443127
The Italian Athenaze is a great reader after you have finished a more grammar heavy textbook. The English edition wasn't that bad either when I took a look at it. Ancient Greek is a hard language and no textbook will make it smooth. Athenaze is just about the most painless way to learn Greek there is so it sounds like you were just filtered by the language itself.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 08:01:13 2022 No.21443380

>>21443367
>The Italian Athenaze is a great reader after you have finished a more grammar heavy textbook.
This. The problem is not that these meme books are bad, it's just that they are often recommended from the start and people are told not to use English at all when studying a dead language - which is just wildly idealistic.
>Athenaze is just about the most painless way to learn Greek there is so it sounds like you were just filtered by the language itself.
Nah, for people like me, not having any upfront grammar is frustrating. It's only painless if you hate grammar or are terrified by it. If you find grammar useful like instructions for Lego, it actually boosts your confidence to understand how things work and then do hard XP grinding with reading later.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 08:02:34 2022 No.21443383 >>21443171 Reading Greek or Greek: An Intensive Course. You can judge by the titles which is better for you, as they are pretty characteristic of the internal contents.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 09:30:57 2022 No.21443574 >>21441986 Uhh no.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 10:36:36 2022 No.21443716 >>21443367 I wasn't filtered. I read real Greek in my university classes. I'm one of only a few students who is in Advanced Greek.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 10:48:45 2022 No.21443762 >>21443716 Of course anon

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 13:32:53 2022 No.21444130 Any Greek grammar textbook recommendations for non English speakers (ESL)? I'm looking for something in either Italian or Spanish, but feel free to recommend textbooks in other languages as well, since I'm pretty sure I'm not the only ESL here.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:31:24 2022 No.21444407 Which Vulgate should I read?

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:37:38 2022 No.21444419

>>21444407
Clementine is the classic one, used for 500 years. Stuttgart is a revision based on Latin manuscripts to get as close to what Jerome would have written. The Nova Vulgata is another revision by the church but using the most up to date Hebrew and Greek texts. Don't listen to anyone who says it's a brand new translation, as it's actually just the Clementine with changes to fit the Greek and Hebrew.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:06:57 2022 No.21444650

>>21444130
Italian Athenaze gets shilled to EFLs all the time in this thread, so you might want to try that one. I'm the guy who wrote against Athenaze a little earlier, so I'm definitely not a fan. If you don't have any luck here and Italian Athenaze isn't your thing, you could try writing to a prof at a university in your country.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:19:43 2022 No.21444895 >>21444419 Thank you very much

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 21:38:19 2022 No.21445556 What's the new 4chan bump limit?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:31:13 2022 No.21445769 NOVUM >>21445767 >>21445767 >>21445767

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