Toni Morrison

[Anonymous No.21403616]

Would she have established herself in the western canon if not for her race? Why or why not?

[Anonymous No.21403619]

> This post is extremely low quality.
Chud thread. Discuss her /lit/erature or fuck off.

[Anonymous No.21403631]

Just like any White American author, her position as a Black American informs her experiences. No matter what she wrote, it would have necessarily been the work of a Black author. This goes for any black author, but no matter the level of skill, you could still ask this question. In other words, if you're simply asking whether she has the ability to write well just read one of her books and find out.

[Anonymous No.21403671]

>>21403631
I'm not asking whether she can write well; I'm asking if in your opinion her ability alone would have earned her a place in the canon, or does ethnicity play a role in her inclusion?

[Anonymous No.21403738]

>>21403616
Never heard of her. Is she importing?

[Anonymous No.21403760]

>>21403738
Baby Suggs didn't even raise her head. From her sickbed she heard them go but that wasn't the reason she lay still. It was a wonder to her that her grandsons had taken so long to realize that every house wasn't like the one on Bluestone Road. Suspended between the nastiness of life and the meanness of the dead, she couldn't get interested in leaving life or living it, let alone the fright of two creeping-off boys. Her past had been like her present--intolerable--and since she knew death was anything but forgetfulness, she used the little energy left her for pondering color.

[Anonymous No.21403774]

>>21403616
>black Americans trying not to write about being oppressed whilst winning several prestigious awards and having buildings named after them

[Anonymous No.21403812]

>>21403760
That's actually very well written. It perfectly captures the sound of the African American grandmother. I can hear the voice - like the Oracle in the Matrix, as an example of the archetype; except I doubt this is as comfy as a chat with the Oracle.
>>21403671
Oh, without a doubt it plays a role. Take the Poet Laureate seat, for example. Every single one is a solid poet, some better than others, but even so, just one glance at the list and it is clear the politics of race play a role. However, on the flip side of that, the politics of race have excluded even more than they've included. I do believe the pendulum has swung too far to the other side at this point, but at the time Morrison was coming to fame, it was predominantly on the basis of two things - her skill and her very open feelings on race as a window into the pain of a Black woman for White people. At least, that's how I see her. Shortly after, you may or may not remember, but Hollywood had a strong desire to pay tribute to the plight of Native Americans which went on for about a decade (the 90s). I don't have anything wrong with that. I think there's a lot we can all gain, on everyside, from examining the difficulties of one another's lives. My problem is that the recent trend is one of unjust vengeance, rather than brotherhood, or at least countrymen. On that note, I own Morrison's, "Beloved," but haven't gotten into it yet, though I've tried to start it before. That doesn't necessarily mean much. I tried to watch Jacques Tati's, "Playtime," three times before I actually got into it, and now I regard it as a masterpiece of modern cinema - the Book of Leviticus and of Numbers are other good examples of my initially unappreciated gems. I did want to mention, however, I once read an excerpt from a book of hers on here - Song of Solomon, I think. I found it exceptionally racist and distateful. I would never approve of something like that - no matter the race of the author. I'm not okay with racism against anyone.

In case it isn't clear, my answer is: I think she's a talented writer whose race and time certainly played a role - as it does for most authors. I've heard it said, "An author is necessarily of his time," and the 1980s, the period I believe she came to fame during, were the first time in American history a generation of Black children were reaching adulthood in true freedom, and the gold line of dawn began to show. You may notice Black sung patriotic ballads were hailed in those years... Anyway, I haven't read enough of her to judge, because it hasn't yet resonated with me, despite her talent as a writer.

What do you think of her?

[Anonymous No.21404270]

I read her, wanted to feel smug about disliking her, but Beloved is legit, much better, much more literary, than the slavery misery porn I was expecting
Jazz, Sula and the Bluest Eye are good too.
She's the equal of Bellow or Roth or Updike who also hoovered up a bunch of accolades at the same time but don't have threads like this made about them

[Anonymous No.21404784]

>>21403616
song of solomon is amazing. it has that grotesque realism in the flavor or your oe or mccarthy.

she didn't establish herself because of her race, if anything it's the opposite as her race probably held her back earlier on in her career.

[Anonymous No.21404789]

>>21403671
her race held her back from being included earlier on in her career, meaning she should've been enjoying the readership she has now, many years ago.

[Anonymous No.21404906]

>>21404270
>but Beloved is legit, much better, much more literary, than the slavery misery porn I was expecting
Agreed, the story really transcends the time and place it takes place in. It manages to be so much fun too.

[Anonymous No.21404944]

I’ve only read Belov’d but I must confess it is as reckomendable as any of the great’st works of Americkan literature, regardless of the composition of its author.

[Anonymous No.21405257]

>>21403631
I've noticed that black authors almost never write books that aren't about black people or black history. Even black science fiction authors like Octavia Butler usually write "black" science fiction. I don't know if this is because publishers demand these types of stories. I might be being unfair. White authors on the other hand will write books set in any time or place. They even wrote books about black people before this was considered "cultural appropriation."

I also don't really think that there's any such thing as a "white experience" or "black experience." I had a very unusual childhood and my life has not been "normal" by the standards of other upper middle class white Canadians. The idea that I have the same "perspective" as every other white person on the planet is just absurd. Of course there is some commonality, but then again there is some commonality between the experiences of a San bushman and an actuary from Paris.

[Anonymous No.21405409]

>>21403774
>he doesn’t understand the pervasive self-otherization and hyper awareness of race which pervades the black experience.
Read “On the Souls of Black folk” by W.E.B. DuBois.
You’re also making a generalization and surface level reading of black literature. In many cases, the very presence of racism or race struggle in a book by a black author does not always indicate race is the main point or conscious agenda. Often race struggle or awareness of race is the ground from which black experience is emerges from—it is the immovable, unignorable.

[Anonymous No.21405421]

>>21405257
>of course there is some commonality
This is exactly what people mean by “white” or “black” experience. Of course, there is no detailed structure of experience which every black or white person’s life fulfills, but there are a few very significant commonalities to the general experience of different races, at least comparable within the same country.

[Anonymous No.21405424]

>>21405257
>I've noticed that black authors almost never write books that aren't about black people or black history.
True. At least, of the ones who get published and talked about.
>I also don't really think that there's any such thing as a "white experience" or "black experience.
Then you're fooling yourself to the point of being very obviously deluded.

[Anonymous No.21405443]

>>21403616
Too political to be universal.

[Anonymous No.21405555]

>>21405443
I don't think she's political at all, at least not compared with her contemporaries.
She never wrote anything like eg Rabbit Redux, Armies of The Night, Our Gang, Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail. Even Pynchon has more openly political stuff with his Nixon jokes than Morrison.
She might easily have written a civil rights/Panther novel, but apart from the subplot in Song of Solomon, she doesn't really deal with it, and even there it's made clear the character is deranged rather than a someone whose thought we are supposed to take seriously.

[Anonymous No.21405568]

>>21405257
>I've noticed that black authors almost never write books that aren't about black people or black history.

Sooo, just like white authors?

[Anonymous No.21405576]

>>21403616
blackity blackity black professional affirmative action racial huckster with a 100 IQ, making her a genius among blacks. An imbecile. No chance in hell she isn't at least 1/8 white.

"I want to see a white man convicted for raping a black woman."
Imagine being stupid enough to say this and think you sound smart.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/20/toni-morrison-race-relations-america-criminal-justice-system

"Too much tail. All that jewelry weighs it down. Like vanity. Can't nobody fly with all that shit. Wanna fly, you got to give up the shit that weighs you down."
Next time you don't get published, remember this ape won the Nobel for flinging feces.

[Anonymous No.21405725]

>>21405568
Most great authors dont really write about "being white/asian" whatever. It colours the book, of course, but it's not the primary motive of writing. Céline didn't write with the goal of making a book about "being French", Dostoyevsky didn't write with the goal of just writing about "being russian". Even if you know nothing about 18th century Germany, Goethe's works can still hold tremendous artistic value. There is far more depth to their works than just that, which is why their appeal is far broader and more universal than authors like Toni Morrison, whose works are just so one-dimensional by comparison. If you're interested in the plight of blacks in the US of the second half of the 20th century, you should read her, but that's it.

[Anonymous No.21405730]

>>21405725
>colours
stopped reading right there

[Anonymous No.21406189]

>>21405725
I think your perception of Toni Morrison as only writing about “being black” shows a lack of deep interaction with the material. Take Beloved, for example. Although the tragedy and historical structure of the story cannot be separated from slavery, it is ultimately a story of how one can’t run from their past nor ignore it, and a more general investigation of the intense moral quandaries of motherhood and the loss of children (with an interesting subversion). It’s not just some 300 page racial commentary, it’s not even super political or historically analytical. I think many people view the perspective of a story with black people or slaves and latch too much onto the spatiotemporal setting which is really no different than any other exploring social dynamics (Balzac, Austen, Solzhenitsyn, to name a few). Do you have to have been a victim of unfair condemnation or gone to prison to understand One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich?

[Anonymous No.21406499]

>>21405257
White authors should do the same

[Anonymous No.21406533]

>>21405257
>I also don't really think that there's any such thing as a "white experience" or "black experience."
Out of curiosity, do you also think there's no such thing as a "male experience"?

[Anonymous No.21406839]

>posters calling Toni Morrison not political
>people admitting that Beloved was "acktually p good"
>"black writers only write about being black!"
Toni Morrison is one of the greatest authors of the past 150 years and Beloved is THE American novel of the past 100 years. She was political but in a way that laid hellfire on everyone, not just honkies. She laid bare the issues with Black Americans while holding a mirror up to the horrors of racism.

If you just want to see HOW smart she was, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsiETgcYM7s

[Anonymous No.21406846]

>>21403616
She probably already is the last canonized author. Perfectly represents the modern direction of literature and what is commonly promoted in the canon by academics. Her writing is genuinely good too

[Anonymous No.21406880]

>>21406839
Most posters here agree that her artistic talent overcomes her politics. She mostly deserves her acclaim. But it’s also true that black people almost exclusively just make art based on their race (unless you think hip hop music about drugs and sex is also black art)

[Anonymous No.21406922]

>>21406839
sorry, no, she's not better than Faulkner, fuck off. name anything she's written as good as go down Moses or Absalom Absalom. you can't. what an embarrassing claim you made.

[Anonymous No.21406937]

>>21406880
And yet when Dostoyevsky writes about Russians, no one bats an eye. Weird how that works.

>>21406922
Beloved and The Bluest Eye both completely FLOOR Faulkner's best, much as I love The Sound and The Fury

[Anonymous No.21406943]

Any author from the "hand-=wringing about my oh so important humanity" school exemplified by Morrison and Baldwin is going to be shallow as a puddle.

[Anonymous No.21406968]

>>21406943
shit taste posting hours

[Anonymous No.21406990]

>>21406968
Nah, I just have high enough standards to call out the two authors singularly most responsible for the degradation of literature as an art form.

[Anonymous No.21407042]

Slightly unrelated, but has anyone here read the posthumous Toni Cade Bambara novel Morrison helped edit 'Those Bones Are Not My Child'? I've heard good things and the subject matter seems incredibly interesting for fiction.

[Anonymous No.21407046]

how? Faulker's prose is twenty times better than Morrison's and he's almost as good as Shakespeare at writing characters. He's not a one hit wonder kid either, he consistently put out books at were 8+ along with several 9.5-10s

[Anonymous No.21407060]

>>21406990

[Anonymous No.21407080]

>>21407060
Go back to redit or twitter if you want to celebrate the schmaltzy hacks.
>>21406937
>And yet when Dostoevsky writes about Russians, no one bats an eye. Weird how that works.
The expression of Russian-ness in literature always leads to melodrama and bad philosophizing. We should call Dostoevsky out for being a hack more often.

[Anonymous No.21407084]

>>21406839
>Beloved is THE American novel of the past 100 years.
lol no

[Anonymous No.21407098]

>>21407080
no dog in this race regarding either author but
>implying melodrama is inherently bad
embarassing

[Anonymous No.21407105]

>>21407098
>>implying melodrama is inherently bad
It certainly is in the way Dostoevsky does it.

[Anonymous No.21407118]

>>21407105
fair point

[Anonymous No.21407124]

>>21403616
You are incorrect in your assumption,

Harold Bloom (pbuh), exalted high priest of the Western Canon inducted Morrison into the Canonical Pantheon for Song of Solomon (though he considered Beloved to be overrated).

This should end the debate.

[Anonymous No.21407133]

>>21407124
He shat on all her non-Song of Solomon work for being Marxist.

[Anonymous No.21407284]

>>21407080
Finally, a sane man who's tired of weepy, melodramatic crap. These authors are addicted to working themselves up to tears, how anyone without a personality disorder can enjoy people like morrison is beyond me.

[Anonymous No.21407708]

>>21405409
>race and the black experience
It's a tired, pathetic, and boring subject. I'd rather read about almost anything else

[Anonymous No.21407810]

>>21403616

Song of Solomon belongs in any western canon roundup. The rest is meh, but that book is a real diamond in the rough.

[Anonymous No.21408183]

>>21405576
>obvious 90IQ poster
>talks about IQ measures
Everytime

[Anonymous No.21408196]

Overrated. Actual best black writer isn't even on most people's radar, the one who wrote this:

Sonnet For A Writer

Far rather would I search my chaff for grain
And cease at last with hunger in my soul,
Than suck the polished wheat another brain
Refurbished till it shone, by art's control.
To stray across my own mind's half-hewn stone
And chisel in the dark, in hopes to cast
A fragment of our common self, my own,
Excels the mimicry of sages past.
Go forth, my soul, in painful, lonely flight,
Even if no higher than the earthbound tree,
And feel suffusion with more glorious light,
Nor envy eagles their proud brilliancy.
Far better to create one living line
Than learn a hundred sunk in fame's recline.

[Anonymous No.21408880]

>>21405576
Yup

[Anonymous No.21408898]

>>21405409
>Often race struggle or awareness of race is the ground from which black experience is emerges from—it is the immovable, unignorable.

It's the boring and the trite.

[Anonymous No.21408973]

>>21403616
She's just some negress bitching about slavery. Whiny subhumans like her are dime a dozen.

[Anonymous No.21408983]

>>21408973
You should consider euthanasia because the abyss of meanspiritedness you crawled from is only pain for you and the rest of the world

[Anonymous No.21409028]

>>21408983
you have to go back

[Anonymous No.21409641]

>>21405568
I could name a dozen books by white authors that weren't about white people but I couldn't do the same for black writers.
>>21406533
I think that because our experiences as men are so strongly shaped by innate biological forces that there is a male experience. We all know what it was like when we first started to think about girls differently, for example.

[Anonymous No.21409686]

>>21407105
>>21407118
>average nigger lovers

[Anonymous No.21410092]

>>21405576
Okay some sanity in this retarded thread phew

[Anonymous No.21410455]

>>21403616
She looks like a unit. Could've been an Olympic weightlifter instead.
>>21403760
Hmm, pedestrian.

[Anonymous No.21411008]

>>21404270
Roth and Updike didn't win the Nobel, and I'm sure the people who say Morrison didn't deserve it would say the same about Bellow if they knew enough about him to care.
They all seem like decent authors, not great. Maybe there is/was that much of a dearth of laureate talent.

[Anonymous No.21411589]

>>21405257
>Posts a book by a "white" European who wrote about a "white" European
I read a science fiction mystery where there mc was indecently black. It wasn't exactly the black experience, jut a nod that there are black people in the far flung future. All is well with when blacks write about their experience and whites write about theirs and when they write incidental characters of other ethnicities in their stories. I don't see the problem.

[Anonymous No.21413050]

>>21403616
Her books are alright, not to the level of the western canon though.