Catho/lit/

[Anonymous No.21393580]

>A Shorter Summa The Essential Philosophical Passages of Saint Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica - Peter J. Kreeft

>Catechism of the Summa Theologi - Thomas Aquinas

>Catholic Catechism of Saint Piu - Pope St. Pius X

>The Confessions of St. Augustine

>Early Christian Writings The Apostolic Fathers - Andrew Louth

>G. K. Chesterton - The Everlasting Man

>History of the Christian Church (Complete Eight Volumes In One) - Philip Schaff

>Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament RSV 2nd Edition

>Mere Christianity - C. S. Lewis

>Orthodoxy - G.K. Chesterton

>St. Thomas Aquinas - G. K. Chesterton

>The Faith of Our Fathers - James Cardinal Gibbons

>The Spirit of Catholicism - Karl Adam Robert A. Krieg

>The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection

>United States Catholic Conference - Catechism of the Catholic Church-Libreria Editrice Vaticana (2000)

>Introduction to Christianity - Pope Benedict XVI
I have all of this in epub/pdf if you want a Catho/lit/ Mega cloud collection to make

[Anonymous No.21393588]

[Anonymous No.21393595]

[Anonymous No.21393598]

[Anonymous No.21394441]

[Anonymous No.21395953]

What the hell do Seminarians learn?

[Anonymous No.21396178]

Any good currently printing copies of the Catechism of Pius X?

[Anonymous No.21396761]

>>21395953
Philosophy, Theology, and Pastoral Care.

[Anonymous No.21398219]

>>21396761
Pastoral Care? Also would you consider their knowledge of Philosophy to be limited to Christian or are they more well rounded nowadays?

[Anonymous No.21398385]

>>21396178
I got the one with the green cover off of amazon
its print on demand but the quality is fine for what it is

[Anonymous No.21398409]

How do I reconnect with Christ as a lapsed Catholic?

[Anonymous No.21398429]

>>21398409
refresh yourself on the catechism
go to church regularly
go to confession regularly
pray daily

[Anonymous No.21398457]

>>21398409
>lapsed Catholic
Join the club with every single "novus ordo" Catholic. What you must know is that the one true faith is Traditional Catholicism which was hidden away by the cult who hate Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and infiltrated the vatican in an attempt to destroy the one true church from within; And in 1969 at the ecumenical council "vatican 2" they created "novus ordo" to accomplish that goal. My advice is to pray to God as best as you know how and start learning about Traditional Catholicism. Here are some videos to start you out.
>Traditional Catholicism vs Novus ordo Catholicism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJxM7Lo2URw
>Miracles of the one true Faith Traditional Catholicism
https://youtu.be/aCeSJw3Qzls
>A primer of the apparition of Our Lady the Virgin Mary at Fatima
https://www.bluearmy.com/the-story-of-fatima/
>the traditions we had
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZcVlYfZZvo
Jesus Christ has always and will always love you, and I will be here for you brother if you have questions.

[Anonymous No.21399143]

>>21398457
larp

[Anonymous No.21399163]

You guys need to read this book. So good.

[Anonymous No.21399168]

>>21399163
everything by augustine should be read

[Anonymous No.21399169]

>>21393580
Hey niggers. Just dropped in to say God isn't real and you should stop believing in 2000 old sandnigger shepherd heat hallucination writings, especially if you consider yourself an intellectual. Don't even bother replying to the post as I won't be coming back to the thread. Peace to you.

[Anonymous No.21399251]

Rereading the Brothers Karamazov really had a huge impact on me. I feel ignited by such a flame of love. I feel as if my faith was far too pharisaic in the past, it was too legalistic and not guided through pure love.
Even in the past I realize my tendency to look for the esoteric was just out of spiritual pride. I have learned humility and in doing so, experienced just a drop of something far more sublime.

Has anyone had any other books impact them in this way? I would love to read a book that is specifically Catholic in this vein. Something about centering oneself in love despite the hardships of the world perhaps.

[Anonymous No.21399268]

>>21398219
Pastoral Care is how to manage a church, spiritually guide parishioners, counsel the mourning etc

[Anonymous No.21399304]

>>21399251
The Practice and Presence of God by Brother Lawrence
The Imitation of Christ by Thomas Kempis
On Acquisition of the Holy Spirit by Seraphim of Sarov (Eastern Orthodox work technically)
Ascent of Mt. Carmel and Dark Night of the Soul by John of the Cross

[Anonymous No.21399306]

>>21399304
Have read most of the others but never read The Practice and Presence of God. Thanks anon plan to read that!

[Anonymous No.21399314]

>>21399306
I hope you enjoy it friend

[Anonymous No.21399321]

What is your opinion on pirating books? It is to my knowledge that the Church has no official position on the digital piracy. On one hand it seems like it would not be something Christ would do and it is a bit scummy if someone is making their living from translating or publishing.

But that being said, online downloads are essentially just copying, it isn't taking something away from someone else. Seems not much different than a library, but at a larger scale. And digital copyright is kind of shady to begin with.

Not really sure what the morally right thing to do is since on one hand it feels wrong and I don't do it, but it does add up to be a fair cost to me

[Anonymous No.21399335]

>>21399321
I don't usually pirate books because I don't enjoy reading off of screens for long periods of time
That being said I think generally its not the worst thing in the world, especially since a lot of literature is in the public domain now anyways
There are also things that aren't in print anymore so if you want a specific book or a specific version of a book your only options oftentimes are to try to find one used or pirate

[Anonymous No.21399344]

>>21398385
Good to know, thank you!

[Anonymous No.21399349]

has anyone read Clarel?

[Anonymous No.21399498]

>>21399349
>Clarel

Was what I read when I had my pilgrimage to Jerusalem when I was still a Christian(Baptist) 10 years ago

[Anonymous No.21399590]

I find it hard to even relate to this shit because there so little Literature written by Reluctant Catholics like me.

Anybody else feel me?

[Anonymous No.21399687]

Catholarping must be the single most pathetic larp of them all. All this roleplaying and virtue signalling.

Why not go one step further and have a counter of how much of these increasing volumes of books you've actually read? That way you can start the holy index, to keep score of who the biggest larpers are, and then we can give the biggest larper the Foam Sword of St. Jesus

[Anonymous No.21399696]

>>21393580
Is it a sin to not have taken the covid vax?

Is it considered pride/arrogance to feel I would be fine without having taken it? Or is it considered pride/arrogance to put more faith in pharmaceutical companies/politicians to protect you with the vaccine?

[Anonymous No.21399720]

>>21398219
I know a lot of Catholic priests and they all had to study philosophy academically. This implies the entire history of Western philosophy from the Greeks to post-modernism.
Some were more interested than others in it, with preferences along the way, but all have a good grasp of what all major philosophical movements and philosophers were about.

[Anonymous No.21399730]

What authors do you recommend to start reading Christian/Catholic stuff in Latin? Is St. Augustine too difficult? I've listened about him in the yt channel Litterae Christianae and seems interesting and approachable (not complex theological stuff)
>21399687
>Catholarping
I was baptized when I was still a baby, though

[Anonymous No.21399736]

>>21399730
tertullian, clement of rome

[Anonymous No.21399738]

>>21399736
thanks

[Anonymous No.21399744]

>>21399730
>I was baptized when I was still a baby, though

That's not the accusation. Larping = you're virtual signalling what you're supposed to be doing

[Anonymous No.21399756]

>>21399744
you still can repent and convert, it isn't too late for you

[Anonymous No.21399765]

>>21393580
why 'avoid the nova vulgata'?

[Anonymous No.21399993]

>>21399687
>>21399744
You are a brain-damaged imbecile. Everytime someone even mentions catholicism some vermin crawls out and starts braying about larping. Catholic philosophy and theology is actually interesting, even to a non-Catholic like me, so shut your garbage drain of a mouth and go to some thread you are actually interested in, you subhuman trash.

[Anonymous No.21400090]

Anyone ever read anything by St. John of the Cross? Did you enjoy it? Where is a good place to start?

[Anonymous No.21400107]

>>21399590
Hyusmans and Dali are for you.

[Anonymous No.21400116]

>>21400090
You can start with "The Contemporary Challenge of John of the Cross" by Leonard Doohan, which is a brief but very good introduction to him
ICS Publications has a compilation of, I believe, all of his writings which I would highly recommend, which you should read in the order they are presented

[Anonymous No.21400187]

>>21400107
Thank you for the sincere recommendation anon.

[Anonymous No.21400843]

>>21399696
No, it is not a sin. The Vatican released a statement about this:
"[...] the Congregation recalls that “vaccination is not, as a rule, a moral obligation and that, therefore, it must be voluntary.”
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2020-12/vatican-cdf-note-covid-vaccine-morality-abortion.html

>>21398219
At least in the Archdiocese where I am, there is a wide-ranging curriculum which covers the ideas and history of most major Western philosophers + focuses on Thomism as the primary school of thought.

[Anonymous No.21401030]

>>21399993
expect a
>wow christcuck, that's not very Christian of you. didn't yeshua ben yosef tell you to love your enemies and turn the other cheek?
sort of response from these types. if they actually contributed to the discuss that'd be great but that almost never happens

[Anonymous No.21401200]

>>21399765
iirc it was revised to have a more "classical" latin style at the expense of accuracy.

[Anonymous No.21401435]

>>21393580
>that diagram
NJV is not meh it's the most advance (while not being woke) version of the Bible, using all sources available, especially the original ones
otherwise Meditations on the Tarot should be mentioned, has a foreword by Hans Urs von Balthasar, friend of Benedict XVI and also bugged John Paul II to read it
it's a brick but goes down really easily

[Anonymous No.21401467]

>>21398457
Honestly, why don't you sedes just become orthodox? You are already in schism and reject the infalability of the papacy (and by that also Vatican I). This tradlarp stuff never made sense to me.

[Anonymous No.21401565]

>>21401467
>become orthodox
what orthodox?
russian orthodox?
ukrainian orthodox (lol)?
georgian orthodox?
serbian orthodox?
romanian orthodox?
bulgarian orthodox?
cyprus orthodox?
constantinople orthodox?
greek orthodox?
albanian orthodox?
polish orthodox?
czechoslovak orthodox?
jerusalem orthodox?
antioch orthodox?
alexandrian orthodox?
look man, I got nothing against christian orthodox' but calling others "schismatic" is kind of rich, as technically you have more split churches than you can hold in two hands............

[Anonymous No.21401578]

>>21394441
Is this a recommended reading order or just mixed recommended readings?

[Anonymous No.21401848]

>>21393580
Have there been any christian philosophers that succesfully argued against Buddha or Nagarjuna?

[Anonymous No.21401856]

>>21401848
I want to add, by "succesfully" I mean truly understood their philosophies and refuted them. Most I could find was from people who had very poor understandings of buddhist philosophy.

[Anonymous No.21401890]

>>21401467
they're more Catholic than the Pope, a heavy burden

[Anonymous No.21401900]

>>21398457
sede and feed (the maw of hell with prideful souls)

Formerly Christ's

>>21399163
I'm interested in his account of history but the book itself just sort of seems way too long and meandering. Like it goes over a bunch of theological concepts I already know. Granted, the rhetorical genius that he is, he knows how to coin 15-25 sterling turns of phrase to make each mystery snappy. But yeah, I already know/believe.

[Anonymous No.21401903]

>>21401467
Because they believe they are the only real Catholics and as such will never leave. They will only continue to carve out their own safe spaces and be schismatic.

[Anonymous No.21401933]

>>21399321
it's objectively morally wrong, because it almost always goes against the will of the creator or owner of the intellectual property—i.e: if you were to ask the publisher or author whether you could download it without going through Barnes and Nobel + Kobo or whatever horrible hideous fiasco they're trying to foist on modern man, the publisher would obviously say no...

Publishers don't do what they do because it's fun, but to make a livelihood. That said, even if you were not to impact their bottom line at all, it would still be morally wrong, because the publisher has signed a binding contract with the author which gives them the rights to make money off of their work (in exchange for publishing it, doing all that a publisher does, etc.)

Now I don't know if such contracts have a loophole which entails that the author themselves can distribute their works to those who ask.

But even if there was such a loophole, it's wrong to take from a stranger with the presumption that they'll be ok with it.

what really freaks me out is there's this like genius level autist on Christian/Catholic substack who hosts a massive repository of pirated books, and he fails or refuses to see that what he is doing is morally wrong. I wouldn't say it's a grave matter, but it's morally wrong, intrinsically, and that's pretty fucking obvious.

That said, I pirate books, but my soul is in the dumps in various ways... I guess it's hypocrisy in me? I don't know. Maybe consequentialism is true?

After all, it's a question of laws... and questions of laws/political things are amenable to consquentialism, even on the stodgiest trad picture. Look at Aquinas permitting prostitution so that graver evils would not ensue.

So maybe pirating ought to be legal so that graver evils (physical theft) does not ensue...

This line of thought being so seemingly unrealistically permissive is what motivates me to kick the whole issue up to the level of actual moral acts... but in lieu of some kind of "nature" which I can draw from, I resort to (perhaps a secular?) voluntarism, in which the will is posited as the ultimate agent of things..

We don't accept this move in sexuality (consent does not make any sexual behavior good, on the Catholic picture), but perhaps the interchange of intangible goods is so much less important that we're allowed to do it?

Thoughts? THOUGHTS? FEELINGS??

[Anonymous No.21401990]

>>21399321
jesus pirated a fish

[Anonymous No.21402137]

>>21401990
sounds delicious

[Anonymous No.21402229]

>>21401848
look into Balthasar

[Anonymous No.21402494]

What's the best very old autobiographies of Christians who aren't directly in the church/priests/etc?

[Anonymous No.21402498]

>>21393580
Any guide to read and understand Aquinas from start to finish?

[Anonymous No.21402579]

>>21402498
Ryan Reaves has a good 2 part video on him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xri0AMiAKIo

Before you start look up what a summa is and how to read one. A summa is a type of debate writing from the Middle Ages and is meant to be read like an encyclopedia you don't need to read it from cover to cover. Just look things up that seem interesting to you. Personally, I would not waste your time with "A Shorter Summa" from the op. The editor deliberately didn't put in theological stuff to appeal more to non-religious people so it's all "How do we know that we know?" philosophical stuff which isn't too interesting to me. Also if you remove the cliff notes it is only about 70 pages. I would just get the full summa and dive in. Reading the summa you can tell St Thomas is insanely smart often times he'll come up with a counter argument that's so good it changes your mind and then you read his response and it changes your mind back. Very cool book and written in a format that you don't usually get to experience.

[Anonymous No.21402621]

>>21402579
Thank you

[Anonymous No.21402804]

You should add some novels about missionaries and saints to your list. Sometimes it's comfy to read adventures instead of theory.

[Anonymous No.21402884]

>>21393580
Any good currently printing copies of the Catechism of Pius X?

[Anonymous No.21402936]

>>21401933
"Intellectual property" isn't property. You can't own words. You can't own ideas. It would obviously be wrong to pass off something as your own, because that would be lying, but it wouldn't be theft.
Digital "piracy" is illegal, not because it's morally wrong on an individual level, but because making it illegal ensures that creators (inventors, authors, etc.) can make money off their work, which gives them more motivation to create, which is good for society. Law isn't about the enforcement of morality, but the advancement of common good.

[Anonymous No.21403340]

I'm thinking about becoming a Priest after I retire at 50, would the process be faster if I had a Philosophy and Theology degree? or should I just become a Monk instead?

[Anonymous No.21403371]

>>21401933
>what really freaks me out is there's this like genius level autist on Christian/Catholic substack who hosts a massive repository of pirated books, and he fails or refuses to see that what he is doing is morally wrong. I wouldn't say it's a grave matter, but it's morally wrong, intrinsically, and that's pretty fucking obvious.

>That said, I pirate books, but my soul is in the dumps in various ways... I guess it's hypocrisy in me? I don't know. Maybe consequentialism is true?

Lol you're such a stereotypical Catholic

[Anonymous No.21403394]

>>21399321
It is theft because it is taking money away from the author. However, hiding knowledge behind a paywall is unfair to the poor. Catholic authors should make some of their works available for free as a form of charity.

>>21401933
>That said, I pirate books, but my soul is in the dumps in various ways... I guess it's hypocrisy in me? I don't know. Maybe consequentialism is true?

Use libby or a real library instead of pirating books. Unless you're pirating stuff that is truly obscure you should be able to find what you're looking for without sinning.

[Anonymous No.21403456]

I do not believe in hell nor heaven. I do not believe in God. What should I read?

[Anonymous No.21403940]

>>21399321
There was a discussion just about this in the torrenting board. I’ll just leave this comment from another poster here.
> Torrenting is not theft, i.e, taking someone else's property and having ownership of it, depriving of the original owner. It's like looking at a book and writing the words of it in another book - copyright infringement, sure, but the original book is still owned and used by the original owner without any new restrictions.
I'd say it does violate some more minor teachings i.e, abiding by the laws of the land. (Romans 13:1-7) But that is overruled when the laws of the land contradict God's teachings. (Acts 5:29).
For keeping peace and avoiding small creators from being starved from sales, its better to be generous and buy the original thing, especially if a sale is going directly to the creator. However if you were never going to buy it (such as not having the money, or it is not available to you in your location anyway) such a thing like internet piracy is a non-issue.
There is also the larger issue of intellectual property as a whole. Is it moral to patent medicine - essentially putting a paywall a cure for a disease - knowing that you have brothers and sisters who are dying of said disease.
>>21401933
I admire your care for the authors who have written the books; but I disagree that copyright benefits the author. Many times the author isn’t properly compensated for their work or middlemen in the industry reap the benefits from their works. The question of an artist’s place in a world where media is reproducible has yet to be answered with satisfaction.

[Anonymous No.21403969]

posting in a blessed thread about the blessed bread

[Anonymous No.21403983]

>>21401848
Chesterton

[Anonymous No.21403989]

>>21403940
> I disagree that copyright benefits the author. Many times the author isn’t properly compensated for their work or middlemen in the industry reap the benefits from their works

My point is just that the author has made a legal agreement with the publisher and as such it is wrong for me, a third party, to violate the terms of the agreement.

[Anonymous No.21404009]

>>21403371
My point is just that I’m not pretending it’s good and it boggles me that he can do so
>>21402936
But I guess the question is then is: is piracy morally wrong? I think we can’t safely assume that any given author would be chill with having someone enjoy his work without him receiving anything in return.
>>21403394
The stuff I read is generally extremely obscure.

[Anonymous No.21404039]

>>21403340
>would the process be faster if I had a Philosophy and Theology degree? or should I just become a Monk instead?
Probably not. Visit a monastery and stay for a weekend or week and see how you like it.

[Anonymous No.21404042]

>>21403456
>I do not believe in hell nor heaven. I do not believe in God. What should I read?
Job and visions of Hildegaard von Bingen

[Anonymous No.21404045]

>>21403340
My impression is that late life priesthood is counter indicated. Why do you want to be a priest or monk? Does thinking about yourself in either vocation make you feel peace or joy?

[Anonymous No.21404111]

>>21402498
You may enjoy "Aquinas at Prayer: The Bible, Mysticism and Poetry" by Fr. Paul Murray, O.P.

[Anonymous No.21404130]

>>21403340
I just read the rule of St Benedict and it make being a monk sound hard. I thought they just bro’d out all day but your life is pretty much controlled by the abbot because he becomes responsible for your soul when you join the order. They have prayer sessions 7 times a day so you are getting up in the middle of the night to have these vigils, no laughing, no unnecessary talking ever too. They do have 2 hrs of silent reading a day which is cool and they do this type of prayer reading where reading the scriptures becomes a good work. Interesting but not for me.

[Anonymous No.21404256]

>>21403340
most religious orders will not admit you if you're over 40
if you feel called to it you should look into the different religious orders and speak with vocations directors for the one(s) that interest you
becoming a priest or monk is not something you do after you retire, its something you devote your life to entirely
if you don't want to do it now then you probably aren't called to it

[Anonymous No.21404281]

>>21404130
the rule of st benedict generally only applies to members of the benedictine order
there are many other orders that have different ways of life, such as the franciscans, the dominicans, the carmelites, augustinians, etc
each order focuses on a different thing or set of things and generally will have a much different way of life than members of a different order

[Anonymous No.21404293]

>>21401578
Would still like to know this

[Anonymous No.21404335]

>>21404293
You can read them in any order you like

[Anonymous No.21404368]

>>21401200
thanks for answering

[Anonymous No.21404486]

>>21403340
>i'm thinking of becoming a priest after i've already done everything i want to do in the world, so that i'll definitely have no regrets leaving it
weak

[Anonymous No.21404553]

I was born Jewish but through several experiences I have accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. I know Catholics are pretty accepting of converts on paper but would I ever be actually accepted into a Catholic community or would I just be seen as an outsider. I remember when I went to synagogue I always thought the converts were weird because so much of Jewish identity is wrapped up in the various bloodlines so it didn't make sense to me why they would want to be Jewish. It seems different for Catholics though since converting people is a pretty big part of the faith but that's me looking in from the outside.

[Anonymous No.21404745]

>>21404335
Doesn't answer my question...

[Anonymous No.21405097]

>>21395953
salesmanship

[Anonymous No.21405110]

>>21398457
lol
buy a fucking ad if you want to promote your youtube channel
lmao

[Anonymous No.21405371]

>>21404553
You would be accepted with open arms. In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek - look at the wide veneration of St. Edith Stein.

[Anonymous No.21405953]

>>21404553
You would be enthusiastically accepted without prejudice. At worst people would be rather naive in how they treated your judaism and for a while they might look at you as if that part of identity made you into some sort of novel curio. But that is at the very worst.

The real difficult part would be finding an actual Catholic community. Often times the impression I get in the US is that the Church is rather barren, just a lot of very old people, few of whom really believe in any of the Church teachings. But it's not like that everywhere.

And congratulations on finding Christ. That sounds rather trite, as if you had simply gotten a promotion or something. Please pray that I may find him, as you have.

[Anonymous No.21405984]

>>21399349
yeah its one of my favorite poems

[Anonymous No.21406099]

>>21404553

Most Catholic parishes I've been a part of have had multiple ethnic groups (Irish, Italians, Filipinos, Africans, etc). It's not tied to ethnicity in the same way that Judaism, or even Orthodox Christianity, is.

[Anonymous No.21406110]

>>21393580
I could use a link to a catho/lit/ discord server...

[Anonymous No.21406181]

>>21399251
Mauriac, Viper's Tangle. The triumph of love is hard-fought.

Bernanos, Diary of a Country Priest. Has a sublime atmosphere of faith, amidst the trials of the world.

On a theological note, Caussade, Abandonment to Divine Providence, the essential message of which is that every detail of life falls under Divine Providence, which in turn is the love of God. A short, but truly profound book. If that was not enough, it is strikingly /lit/, as well.

[Anonymous No.21406747]

>>21401933
What's the substack?

[Anonymous No.21408064]

>>21401848
Nagarjuna is very difficult to refute, I wouldn't expect any christian to do as good of a job as the advaitins did, but Buddha doesn't really need any refuting since his stance is agnostic iirc, he attacks the evidence for the existence of god but I don't recall him ever arguing against the idea that god could exist, like Nagarjuna has.

[Anonymous No.21408066]

>>21401900
just read an abridged edition like a pleb. It's not essential for salvation but if you want to be serious about the Catholic intellectual tradition it is.

[Anonymous No.21408116]

>>21399590
>he doesn’t know about James Joyce and Graham Greene

[Anonymous No.21408121]

>>21401030
True. Trannies like them only know how to seethe and cope.

[Anonymous No.21408713]

>>21393580
How do Catholics reconcile all the obvious paganisms within their faith? How do you deal with the history of cannibalism, sorcery, and pedophilia within the Catholic church?

[Anonymous No.21408827]

>>21408713
>How do Catholics reconcile all the obvious paganisms within their faith?
It's really mostly just a meme because there are non-human images in the church and interesting fabrics. It isn't pagan because in the pagan era they would literally say the god was in that icon or statue.
>How do you deal with the history of cannibalism, sorcery, and pedophilia within the Catholic church?
The eucharist is cannibalism and as such it isn't surprising bad actors twist it. The Church, in a categorical sense, practices true magic and true socery and if you look into demonology you actually get less good things from dealing with the devil and dark forces. Pedophilia is a massive issue in our society and I was molested (not by a priest) at 3 and the only way this made my life worse was that it increased my willingness to have sex and go against the Church Magisterium - all in all, I would put being molested by a stranger as a child as something not great but nowhere near as bad as a genuinely abusive (physically, verbally, or sexually) step- or biological parent and as such I think this idea that it's a priest makes it extra bad but in another sense it is an incredible gift and challenge to use really the only value Christ gives the Church which is forgiveness. In all honesty, the main issue with pedophilia is we hold the molested to pathetic standards when the actual answer is to forgive and pray for them and not sue for the collection plate because your ass has scars. The role of the governing Church is meaningless in the final analysis ans we lose when we do not preach the Gospel to victims of pedophilia, torture, and even small slights alike.

[Anonymous No.21408853]

>>21408827
Keep in mind that I have seen a highly successful man who had his own biological father daily abuse him (physically and sexually) forgive him and the absolute majesty of that, from the Gospel, is a power that is almost to strong to behold and to deny that to victims, that at a certain level of bad you don't have to forgive, is the evilest thing we can do. In short, reporting to a bishop is fine to prevent it but the whole court cycle and media side of this is just as damaging as any revenge cycle and far far worse than being molested in the first place. To never forgive is far worse than to have something to forgive for.

[Anonymous No.21409219]

I'm homeless at the Library. Is it possible for me to attain Catechism? I'm scared to go to the Bishop at my local Cathedral

[Anonymous No.21409220]

[Anonymous No.21409239]

>>21409219
why

[Anonymous No.21409259]

>>21409239
I'm not proud to be who I am, I've done a lot of bad things in my life, some sins afaik, and have always been a burden on others

[Anonymous No.21409337]

>>21409259
That's the whole point of Christ's advent on the Earth, brother. You don't need to go directly to your bishop, but you should go to your nearest parish, and talk with the priest about your situation. Anybody can become a catechumen - being a sinner is not a barrier, it is a necessary precondition. God be with you.

[Anonymous No.21409397]

>>21409259
>And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them. But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

[Anonymous No.21409725]

>>21409219
You wouldn't go to the bishop for that, you'd look for a diocesan priest. The parish might have a procedure for catechism and initation, but it also might not have a formalized procedure.
Your diocesan priest would be responsible for your spiritual guidance, but keep in mind that they usually have many responsabilities, so you need to do some reading on your own too.

[Anonymous No.21409765]

>>21401933
>intellectual property
jewish spook

[Anonymous No.21409789]

>>21408713
paganism is based
canniablism, also based when it’s christ you’re eating
sorcery obviously based
pedophilia semi based (greek style pederasty specifically)

[Anonymous No.21409828]

>>21393580
How do you actually join the catholic church?

[Anonymous No.21409832]

>>21409828
First there's baptism, then confession and first communion, then confirmation

[Anonymous No.21409860]

[Anonymous No.21409868]

https://youtu.be/BJnrz7U9ugU

[Anonymous No.21409886]

>>21409860
>>21409868
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkIfo15jV-8

[Anonymous No.21409898]

https://youtu.be/lbVGlo-e3gU

[Anonymous No.21409901]

>>21409868
>>21409886
imagine choosing your religion because of eceleb debatebros on youtube
surely these people, none of whom are priests or members of any religious order, have solved the debate which has been ongoing since 1054 once and for all
orthodox refuted catholic destroyed epic style top 10 reasons why the orthodox are heretics top 10 reasons the pope is actually hitler on and on and on and on

[Anonymous No.21409908]

>>21409901
There are Orthodox priests in total agreement with Jay Dyer and he has their approval to make his videos.

[Anonymous No.21409934]

>>21409901
Here is Orthodox clergy speaking with Jay Dyer.
https://youtu.be/7T-39dWXwes

[Anonymous No.21409975]

>>21405953
Thanks I will pray for you anon. Honestly it took me being the most desperate I’ve ever been in my life and having nobody for me to turn to but Christ for me to believe

[Anonymous No.21409991]

>>21409828
you go to classes given by some volunteer lady who is probably a moderator on r catholicism then you get water and oil sprinkled on your head and youre in

[Anonymous No.21409999]

>>21409901
Making epic monetized debate videos dunking on ones enemies was the third great commandment read matthew

[Anonymous No.21410006]

>>21409999
This is just piety signalling.
Would you have told Paul to stop debating people? Would you have said "Listen Paul, I think you should be more charitable"

[Anonymous No.21410013]

Do any of you have advice for someone struggling with Catholic justification? I was born and raised Catholic but became atheist very early. I just recently started attending church again, but I feel constant fear for my salvation and feel more at peace with Lutheran theology, while still loving traditional Catholic aesthetics. Any help with this?

[Anonymous No.21410017]

>>21410006
No but I also wouldnt draw a comparison between youtubers and paul

[Anonymous No.21410018]

You know what? All you people who say "Oh Jay Dyer is too aggressive, he's so mean, he's not representing blah blah blah", let me tell you something. Jay Dyer is the one who brought me back to Christianity years ago and got me out of the pagan and Hindu nonsense that I was really believing at the time.
No one else did that for me.

[Anonymous No.21410036]

>>21410018
Brahman is still waiting for you anon.

[Anonymous No.21410038]

>>21410036
Satanic nonsense

[Anonymous No.21410048]

>>21410038
>anything i like is satan

[Anonymous No.21410054]

>>21410018
liking jay dyer is fine the issue is moreso people who act like hes the end all be all of theology who has it all figured out and solved every issue or point of contention and has all the right answers
most of these people haven't read much theology or church history themselves they just agree with whatever jay dyer says in his latest youtube video
if you like him or agree with him its fine really just don't be a sycophant and understand he is no substitute for your own spiritual life
agreeing with jay dyer won't get you into heaven

[Anonymous No.21410077]

>>21404553
Aside from very specific communities with an ethnic character, you're still dealing with western contemporary society. Your parish is likely only slightly less atomized than your local administrative body. No one will care about Jewish origins including antisemites like me.

>>21401565
The fiasco of the "council" of Crete 2016 has revealed how much of a meme panorthodoxy is, and it has grown much worse in the last few years.

>>21399730
Later medieval and modern Latin is noticeably easier to read than ancient writers. Those writers used Latin words but largely followed the standard word order of Romance languages (and English mostly followed French) and use a more formalized and consistent grammar in general.
The obvious exception for easy ancient text is the vulgate itself which was sounds great and yet was readable by semi-literate people.

[Anonymous No.21410095]

Pope Francis is a false prophet and a servant of the devil.

[Anonymous No.21410101]

>>21410095
are catholics who hate pope francis schismatics? or is pope francis the schismatic despite being the pope?

[Anonymous No.21410120]

>>21410013
Someone please respond to this.

[Anonymous No.21410131]

>>21410101
neither
you're allowed to not like the pope

[Anonymous No.21410142]

>>21410101
Hating the poope doesn't make you a schismatic unless you are actively working against him. Sedevacantists think everyone since John XXIII is fake ass, including the current anti-pope Benedict.

[Anonymous No.21410148]

>>21410131
True but Catholicism also has internal debate over the infallibility of the pope, the validity of councils, etc. You could be effectively schismatic even while claiming to remain Catholic like many pre-Lutheran reformers were, for example by being an extreme conciliarist or claiming Francis is an antipope, and then when Francis and his administration sanctions you for this, obviously replying that their sanction is invalid for the very same reasons you made your initial claims. So it doesn't really answer the question of what would happen if a very large number of Catholics actively repudiated, say, the direction of the post-Vatican II church while claiming to remain perfectly orthodox. This can only go on so long as both sides are unwilling to accuse the other of being fully broken from the church and trying to assert this view in some way (say, continuing Latin rite after it's been banned, or trying to banning it). At that point, you effectively do have an antipapal/conciliar schism, even if both sides claim to be the true church.

[Anonymous No.21410384]

>>21410013
Lutheran/protestant justification is literally transgender ideology applied to soteriology.
They deny the reality of gender/justice (or merit), replacing it by a mere imputation (16th century vocabulary) or identification process (21st century vocabulary).
Luther himself admitted his theory was equivalent to saying "I sincerely believe I am justified therefore I am justified". Any resemblance with currently fashionable doctrine is not coincidental. It is the replacement of the recognition of the real attributes of a subject by mere "as if" pretense.
You could write volumes, and indeed many volumes were written on the comical consequences of the bizarre doctrine of justice imputation. If nothing else it necessitates that God makes incorrect judgement because no matter what He has to agree with a judgement of the form "This [unjust] person is just" along the way.

[Anonymous No.21410452]

>56 unique posters
Isn't it a sin to waste your life on imageboards? Some mixture of sloth, acedia, and pride (especially here, with all the posturing)?
Isn't it kind of an insult to creation to spend your youth shitposting? Like, God gave you the light of consciousness, the most precious gift there is, and you spend it on 4chan.
That is the reason why I wished I could have faith - so that I could take life seriously, and not waste my time - but seeing that faith does not save tradcats from it at all is pretty demoralizing.

[Anonymous No.21410484]

I feel genuine grief over the many schisms across small-o orthodox Christianity. Will the Great Schism ever be mended? Is such a thing even for the better?

[Anonymous No.21410590]

>>21410101
they are either "merely" in a state of grave sin (it should be obvious that a Christian should not hate anybody, least of all the Roman Pontiff) or positively schismatic (if they deny that he is the valid pope)

[Anonymous No.21410594]

>>21410452
If you don't have faith then by what standards do you judge certain behaviors as good or bad?
I don't know what exactly your worldview is but if you are say, a materialist atheist for example, then by what standards can you say "Why are posting on 4chan, how embarrassing"
Your own subjective standards? Then why should anyone else care? You can't have real objective standards if you are an atheist.

[Anonymous No.21410639]

>>21410452
idk what to tell you anon. lately I feel like I've grown old enough to become truly weary of this place. feels like a young man's game. people buried so deep in their own vanity, conceit and artifice that it's just exhausting talking to them—unpacking the centuries of lies and delusions that've been fed to them by a culture which is almost pure antichrist. and if people aren't merely intellectually deluded, they're extremely morally evil. like venomous snakes or ugly insects. the moral decline we have seen in this country in the past few generations is really harrowing. And it only ever seems to get worse. the gap between millenials and zoomers is admittedly less than that between gen xers and millenials, but that was only because they had so much less far to fall.

But yes, it's impossible to browse 4chan at all without placing yourself in near occasion of grave sin, subjecting yourself to temptation to the point that you may as well be committing the sin itself, even if you happen to resist it atm.

You're right to notice the tone of cruel pride, vicious harshness and contempt. You see it all over the internet among trads. They have received nothing from Christ. They go away with their hands empty. At least the sodomites (meaning everyone "left," not just homosexuals but anyone who is ok with non-procreative sex) are "kind,"—even if their effeminate kindness insults God just as much as the red team, just in an opposite way.

But all that said, you must realize the darkness of the Christian picture. It is not a perfectist ideology like every secular system. Christians believe that we all sin every day. So maybe we have some "buffer zone" through that.

>>21410484
All we can do is pray and leave it in God's hands. At the least we can say that the Latin Church is so much more irenic than in her dark days, there is much greater chance for reconciliation and union than there has been in centuries. Just remember that we are moving in the right direction, and that God is in control.

[Anonymous No.21410690]

>>21402498
Summa of the Summa from Peter Kreeft

[Anonymous No.21410743]

Why does Roman catholic church make people get the covid vaccine
I won't get it. I don't want it or need it.

[Anonymous No.21410759]

>>21404553
Catholics, in far right circles, prefer converts. Welcome, brother.

[Anonymous No.21410761]

>>21410452

Is it a sin to watch films, read books for pleasure or perform any other unproductive task? What a silly question.

[Anonymous No.21410785]

>>21410761
Augustine thought so

[Anonymous No.21410841]

>>21410761
I think that it depends on the film, book, etc.

[Anonymous No.21410847]

Interview with Andrei Tarkovsky Jr.
https://youtu.be/LntyDYM92HA

[Anonymous No.21410883]

Sometimes I go through periods where I don't practice the sin of masturbation for months or weeks at a time, and other times I go through a period where I do it like pretty much every day. Do you anons struggle with this?

[Anonymous No.21410918]

>>21410639
>damn kids and their moral decline

[Anonymous No.21410997]

>>21409789
Are you even a Catholic??

[Anonymous No.21411044]

>>21410918
I see it in myself more than others

also, why should this POV be rejected prima facie? Look at our culture's stagnation, its obsession with nostalgia. Aren't these obvious signs that everyone acknowledges that the past was somehow better than the present? It barely needs to be argued, it imbues the very air we breathe

[Anonymous No.21411051]

>>21410883
>Do you anons struggle with this?
duh

[Anonymous No.21411059]

>>21410785
Latin fathers paradigmatically erred in or towards rigorism (Tertullian), Greeks erred in or towards Laxity (Origen)

>>21410743
Part of being a good citizen is taking measures to ensure the common good. When you can avoid grave harm befalling your fellow citizens at only a mild inconvenience to yourself, I think it's obvious that it's swinish not to. It's the RW version of not returning the shopping cart. Unless you're genuinely convinced that it's dangerous, in which case I can refer you to evidence which shows that it isn't, or at least that it is reasonably safe.

>>21410594
Anon, he was accusing you of hypocrisy and saying that such hypocrisy turns him away from the Christian Church. It's a seriously effective argument which Christ Himself uses (by their fruits ye shall know them).

The bad behavior of Christians is the world's greatest evil, because by it people are turned from the truth. When infidels sin, it only testifies to the emptiness of their beliefs—when Christians sin, we sin against Truth itself.

[Anonymous No.21411065]

>>21410590
So you support Francis then even though he is a Satanist? You support the pope no matter what?

[Anonymous No.21411077]

>>21411059
We can talk about hypocrisy among Christians and that's fine, but nonetheless it is a valid question to pose to an atheist: If you are a secular atheist, then by what standards do you judge any behavior as good or bad? You have no standards. It is meaningless to make value judgements from the atheistic paradigm because there is no such thing as right or wrong if you say that there is no God.

[Anonymous No.21411083]

>>21411059
>Origen
He was condemned as a gnostic heretic.

[Anonymous No.21411101]

>>21411059
Regardless of any more lies and Antichrist propaganda you want to bring forth, I will never get the covid "vaccine" and that is final.

[Anonymous No.21411102]

>>21410452
And the 1.3 billion catholics that are NOT posting in this thread don't inspire you?
Are we uniquely important to you, or are you posting in bad faith?

[Anonymous No.21411112]

Evolution is false. Modernist theologians who simply say "Creation in Genesis is an allegory" are ignoring the traditional understanding which is that creation in Genesis is both literal and allegorical at the same time, not merely one or the other. This has always been how it was understood.

[Anonymous No.21411120]

>>21411083
Origen was condemned for a lot of things (almost all false accusations) but not gnosticism.

[Anonymous No.21411123]

>>21410120
>>21410013
>I was born and raised Catholic but became atheist very early. I just recently started attending church again, but I feel constant fear for my salvation and feel more at peace with Lutheran theology, while still loving traditional Catholic aesthetics. Any help with this?

I started to write a response but got tangled up in all the nuances of justification, and the differences between the Catholic and Lutheran understanding.

This, however, is a good video by a solid Catholic scholar who addresses himself to question of assurance of salvation from a Catholic perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpUHJSzvDkw

As Pitre notes, although the Catholic Church does not endorse the idea of an absolute certitude of salvation, that does not mean that Catholics doubt God's mercy or the love of Christ or the power of the Cross. A Catholic can have a certitude of faith that God loves me and gave himself for me, as Paul says in Galatians.

And as such, a Catholic can have a moral—not absolute—assurance of salvation, as explained here:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/yes-christians-do-have-an-assurance-but-not-an-absolute-assurance-of

I hope these are helpful.

[Anonymous No.21411198]

>>21411065
He's not a Satanist. Only someone whose mind is clouded by diabolical pride would think so

[Anonymous No.21411205]

There is no problem with reading books which are most certainly not Catholic, but that have historical/philosophical/artistic value, right?
If I'm not mistaken Pope Benedict XVI read and made a refutation of Judith Butler's work, so me reading Mao's Quotations should be fine, right?

[Anonymous No.21411237]

>>21411083
Yes, so was Tertullian. Doesn't mean that their works were entirely without merit. There are a handful of brilliant Greek saints who loved Origen. And I don't think it was Origen or even Origenism as a whole which was condemned, but only certain heresies in Origenism... apocatastasis and denial of the literal meaning of scripture

>>21411101
Let's actually debate the pros vs. cons of taking the vaccine. Like, google it. It's so fucking easy to do that. All the evidence is right there. It isn't antichrist, it isn't satanism. What IS antichrist is the denial of truth in consciousness, refusal to listen to or inquire into small-t truth because of your own small-minded factionalism (religion subsumed into politics). I get that most blue team people worship moloch, but that's no reason to go against absolutely everything on that side. This swinish americanism is destroying the Church.

But seriously. Just like... read this:

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/is-the-covid19-vaccine-safe

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/are-the-vaccines-safe

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/why-vaccination-is-safe-and-important/

Or if you have an authority problem (how Christian!), we can actually go to the studies themselves...

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2110475

Which are totally transparent about the actually existing yet vanishingly rare adverse effects.

[Anonymous No.21411253]

>>21411198
In what sense is Francis not Satanic?

[Anonymous No.21411256]

>>21411205
>Judith Butler
Is she the pedo enabler? Or was that a different feminist? I don't know they're all kind of the same really

[Anonymous No.21411262]

>>21411077
the problem is that God has made the world so full of goodness that as Plato says (somewhere in the Laws), you can be an atheist and at least superficially morally good, even if you ultimately have no foundation. so it's not entirely true that morality goes out the window immediately without God. To a large degree our problems come from that it doesn't — that sin is not immediately punished.

One could for example be an Aristotelian about morality, that good morality leads to flourishing, all while leaving the question of underlying metaphysics and God's existence not addressed. Not saying that Aristotle did it, but it's certainly possible.

Although in Anon's case he has probably not examined these things beyond what secular culture prescribes, that evil is pain and goodness is pleasure.

yet even this isn't that far off the mark. For we believe that, barring some edge cases, the righteous man's life is more joyous, both on the level of nature and above nature.

[Anonymous No.21411269]

>>21411112
I think St. Augustine never quite squared Genesis with what science knew at the time. It's a failure of faith (and morally evil) to force the issue and deny known scientific truth for the sake of faith. A more Islamic than Christian hermeneutic IMO. Pope Benedict basically gave what I think is the best account, that Genesis describes humanity as rational creature... not his evolution as animal, but as a creature with a rational soul.

I'm weary of the dialectic wherein trad cat larpers revolt against those few intellectual goods which modernity has given us. why don't you fight against the actual evils of modernity, not the small scraps of truth we've gotten from it?

[Anonymous No.21411279]

>>21411123
The way I see it, we can be reasonably sure we are or are not in a state of grace at any given time, can't we? Like, if we have made use of the sacraments and have no grave sins on our conscience—doesn't that mean that we know that we're in God's good graces (literally)?

I mean, I always thought that the Catholic POV was that salvation is something which is only truly cinched at death. We are meant to stay vigilant because we are sinners—we cannot safely assume we will stay morally good our whole lives, but we can try.

[Anonymous No.21411305]

>>21411253
In what sense are YOU not satanic? Between the Roman Pontiff, obviously a kind, gentle, wise man who loves Christ, and you, a random internet troll who accuses his own father, more father than his own earthly father, of being a slave to the devil—your evil is far more shameful, outrageous, egregious and wrong, intolerably wrong.

With some exceptions (the infamous footnote in amoris laetitia etc.) Pope Francis' encyclicals have been extremely Christocentric and his various homilies full of wisdom, love, and encouragement. The spirit flows from them; they are full of love and joy—they represent a radical return to Christ (as against the sterile rationalism of our age).

Yes, there are points or he has made statements where it seems undeniable that he is in a state of material heresy. His incautious remarks and stumbling-blocks are grievous...

But your hyper-toxic stance of criticism (with no fucking shred of reverence or propriety—your impudence is just shockingly shameful, like a child spitting in the face of his father, it's truly an abomination) is itself so much more antichrist than the Holy Father's misguided statements or beliefs.

You are like Ham, mocking his own father's nakedness... and this is definitive proof that you are fatherless. This hideous, grievous blindness.

[Anonymous No.21411341]

>>21410013
Attend an LCMS congregation. It’s “Protestant” theology and “Catholic” aesthetics.

The Catholic position is that faith (Jesus) and works (sacraments etc) bring salvation together. The Lutheran position is that only faith (Jesus) saves us, but as a result of that salvation we desire to attend worship, love one another, receive sacraments etc. Lutherans posit that “faith” with no evidence of works is not real faith. It’s just posturing. Faith leads to salvation AND works, while Catholics hold that faith AND works in tandem lead to salvation.

A pretty fine difference desu, but it really does make a big difference

[Anonymous No.21411345]

>>21411237
>This swinish americanism
Frenchism*

[Anonymous No.21411363]

>>21411341
>LCMS
These are the conservative Lutherans rights? My understanding is that there are two different Lutheran groups, and one is very conservative, while the other is what 4chan would call "pozzed".

[Anonymous No.21411408]

>>21411269
>why don't you fight against the actual evils of modernity, not the small scraps of truth we've gotten from it?
They don't fight against them because they don't know them. They're surrounded by them, indulging in them, propagating them. If you're drifting along in a river of sin, it's easier to simply lash out against whatever offends your sins, whatever shines a light and brings awareness to you of your sins than it is to recognize yourself sinning as you sin. In a similar way, it's easier to point out the sins you're not guilty of, the sins clinging onto and dragging down the man bracing himself against a stick far away from yourself than it is to recognize the sins you share. Essentially, it's what makes it hard to pluck the beam out of your own eye.

[Anonymous No.21411414]

>>21411269
>>21411408
So you just don't believe the Bible then?

[Anonymous No.21411416]

>>21411341
interesting point to debate on.
i like Lewis' analogy best: "it's like asking which blade of a pair of scissors is more important"

[Anonymous No.21411419]

>>21411363
LCMS are the conservative ones, yes.

I’m a regular member of an LCMS congregation and I’ve never heard anything in the pastor’s homily, or made by the synod president, that’s ever annoyed me.

It’s a good group of churches, anon, you’d probably like us. Very academic, nice liturgy, fully vested officiant etc. The technical term is “evangelical catholic” for what most of the LCMS congregations are all about.

Read the Book of Concord if you’d like to know more. Start with the Augsburg Confession.

[Anonymous No.21411425]

>>21411416
Ha, that’s a good one. Nice description

[Anonymous No.21411427]

How can a Christian believe in evolution? Think about it for a minute. If that is your position, then you are saying that death existed in nature BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned. That sort of throws everything in the Bible out the window really. Christianity understands death to be a consequence of sin, not something that God created in nature.

[Anonymous No.21411439]

>>21411425
Mere Christianity is a gold mine. i wonder why therr are so many Christians who don't look into apologetics and theology.

to go over his proper point, for apologetical sake:
works help you keep faith, and faith results in you wanting to do the most good you can.
a nice little cycle of works strenghtening faith, and faith bringing on good works.
(much better explained by the author, of course).

[Anonymous No.21411450]

>>21411427
The Fall was a transcendental event. It’s not properly thought of as occurring in time and space, really. The pre-Fall “world” was perfect and good, with all of creation in tune with God. But God gave the pinnacle of creation, Man, the choice to know that there is evil, and that he will never defeat it himself, or he can attempt to be better than God and defeat evil himself.

We chose the second option and now things are thoroughly gay.

[Anonymous No.21411458]

>>21411439
>. i wonder why therr are so many Christians who don't look into apologetics and theology.
Do you like Saint Maximus the Confessor? He goes into great detail on metaphysics, the Trinity, the natures of created things, and so on.

[Anonymous No.21411472]

>>21411450
But are you saying that there was death before the fall? Was there evolution without but without death?

[Anonymous No.21411479]

https://youtu.be/Y0sdPLJO3cE

[Anonymous No.21411481]

>>21411439
>i wonder why therr are so many Christians who don't look into apologetics and theology

Theology is philosophy with a special focus on the Divine. Philosophy is not something Joe Smith is much interested in.

Pastors are responsible for teaching their congregations this stuff every week in their homilies and teaching children and new members in catechism.

Shame that many pastors neglect this duty.

[Anonymous No.21411490]

>>21411472
The Fall “occurred” far “before” the temporal and spatial existence we know came to be.

So, no. There was no death or evolution (however you want to define that term) before the Fall.

[Anonymous No.21411495]

>>21410743
It doesn't.
"[...] the Congregation recalls that “vaccination is not, as a rule, a moral obligation and that, therefore, it must be voluntary.”
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2020-12/vatican-cdf-note-covid-vaccine-morality-abortion.html

[Anonymous No.21411511]

>>21411458
i actually haven't gotten to reading him yet. have heard good however.
a summary of his works, if possible?

[Anonymous No.21411533]

>>21411511
I second this anon, any recommendations on good editions of his work? A lot of the Eastern Fathers are hard to find in print.

[Anonymous No.21411537]

>>21411279
>The way I see it, we can be reasonably sure we are or are not in a state of grace at any given time, can't we?

I agree 100%.

>Like, if we have made use of the sacraments and have no grave sins on our conscience—doesn't that mean that we know that we're in God's good graces (literally)?

>I mean, I always thought that the Catholic POV was that salvation is something which is only truly cinched at death. We are meant to stay vigilant because we are sinners—we cannot safely assume we will stay morally good our whole lives, but we can try.

Likewise the rest of your post. That's well said.

[Anonymous No.21411568]

>>21411511
>>21411533
What I am reading is On The Cosmic Mystery Of Jesus Christ by Saint Maximus the Confessor.
It's not that long but it is very dense with really serious, deep philosophy, so it isn't really something that you can just breeze through quickly.
Here is a short video reading a passage of his work.
https://youtu.be/G0Budc4ib8I

[Anonymous No.21411624]

>>21410452
I think we all have unique situations. In my case, I am on Christmas break from seminary studies, and so I like to visit here and contribute in an edifying way if possible, because people from here helped me on my journey in a significant way.

[Anonymous No.21411973]

When I started investigating religion some years ago I was drawn to the more liturgical forms of christianity. But I think I poisoned my mind with G*rmans and Eastern religion and iconoclastic figures like Tolstoy and Ellul and I can’t take it seriously anymore. Maybe it was divine providence that put me in such an age and I wasn’t meant to be Christian (or at least not Churchian) My mini blogpost for the day

[Anonymous No.21411985]

>>21399306
I’ve read many books in this thread and this was one of my favorites along with Way of the Pilgrim. Short to the point and simple although by no means easy, very much like the words of Jesus in the Gospels

[Anonymous No.21412092]

>>21411973
Tolstoy was in fact quite strongly disliked by many conservatives in Russia at the time. He was seen as extremely liberal/progressive for his time.
Saint John of Kronstadt, an Orthodox priest, wrote a letter to him in which he said that he ought to have a stone hung around his neck and be lowered into the depths of the sea.

[Anonymous No.21412110]

>>21411973
>G*rmans
Why are you doing this?
All men of every nation are created in the image of God. God loves everyone in the whole world and there is nothing you can do about that.

[Anonymous No.21412116]

>>21412092
Yes a dedicated churchman is going to hate a man that shits all over the church

[Anonymous No.21412135]

>>21412116
It is referencing a verse from the Bible. It is what Jesus Christ said about people who bring children to harm.

[Anonymous No.21412166]

I saw some old footage of Bolshevik propaganda from the early days of communism and I'm telling you anons, you would be amazed at how much it looks like current day liberal propaganda.
>women dancing around (like those covid nurse tik tok videos) wearing signs around them that say things like "The time of priests is over! Now we listen to the scientists!"
>people dressed in demon costumes burning down churches and smashing icons
If it were in color instead of black and white and maybe if you updated some of the terminology a little bit, it would be literally identical to some kind of modern day liberal politics video from reddit/tik tok/whatever that people here would make fun of.

[Anonymous No.21412220]

I saw some polish theologian get mentioned on this board and I can't remember him now.
He was mentioned alongside the man that wrote homo abyssus as having a particularly interesting or intellectual take on the faith. I believe there was a post about one of his books on the notre dame press website. I can't remember any of the names though. Any ideas?

[Anonymous No.21412885]

>>21399251
Read and reread the Imitatio Christi bro. Best catholic book, although I don't believe in the concept of the messiah any more.
>>21393580
http://www.traditionalcatholic.co/free-catholicbooks/

Personally I think Duties of the Heart is the best theology book.

[Anonymous No.21412890]

>>21399321
All the best books on theology are over 400 years old anyway.

[Anonymous No.21412897]

>>21399730
Go to Latin mass, follow along with the recitations in English and slowly begin memorising basic prayers in Latin.

[Anonymous No.21412943]

>>21410452
>It's the sick that need the physician, not the healthy.
Again, not a catholic but I don't consider it a waste of time to be discussing divine matters with sincere people.

[Anonymous No.21412950]

>>21411205
Reading isn't a sin anon.

[Anonymous No.21412955]

>>21411279
I think the key thing here is to understand repentance is a constant process. I don't think you want to assume your "in a state of grace". Just always try to be getting better and coming closer to God.

[Anonymous No.21412967]

>>21411427
Humanoid animals died before God breathed life into Man, then the fall happened and Man knew death. That's how I look at it.

[Anonymous No.21412969]

>>21411472
I am, but I'm not Christian. I read the garden of Eden as state with consciousness in harmony with God, then the fall happens and you have disharmony resulting in Man knowing about death.

[Anonymous No.21412973]

>>21411973
God is more than religious dogma defines it to be. Keep truckin anon.

[Anonymous No.21412999]

So here's my question for the thread: if you don't assume any christian dogma, why do you need a messiah? I believe in God whole heartedly, I just don't see the need for any intervention or what I see as unnecessarily complex theological positions like the trinity or atonement. I think to be like Job is all you need.

[Anonymous No.21413154]

>>21412999
Job knew God, followed His commandments and even made sacrifices to God (like in Job 1:5)

[Anonymous No.21413181]

>>21412999
oh, i had misunderstood the question.
because all the prophecy and Law leads to Christ.
try, wholeheartedly, with all your being, to keep God's commandments and laws.
you will fail, as all of us have (as did Job, questioning God as if he were right). we need Christ because we cannot be holy before God through our own efforts.
Christ is God becoming flesh so that we may follow His example. God coming down so that He may open the way for us to follow Him up.

give Mere Christianity a read, it is an extremely good book for those fundamental topics, and a very pleasant read.

[Anonymous No.21413224]

>>21412999
and, on the trinity, that just comes from studying the Bible.
you can see it in the first few words of Genesis even.
the first few words "In the beginning God made" in hebrew are "bereshit bará Elohim"
"Elohim" is a plural word, while the verb 'made'(bará) is in the singular tense.

a bit further forward, God saying "let us make man in *our* image"
God is spirit, so where does that image comes from? there's Christ.
God's spirit hovering above the water.
and many more examples, both in the OT and NT.

and a nice curiosity, Genesis begins with the hebrew letter 'bet', and Revelation ends with the hebrew letter 'nun'. them together writes out "ben", which means son. And it is all about the Son of God.

[Anonymous No.21413232]

>>21413224
>And it is all about the Son of God.
writing this better, everything in the Bible points to Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

[Anonymous No.21413263]

>>21413181
Christians fail as well. Everyone fails, as it says,
>For there is no just man upon earth, that doth good, and sinneth not.
Are you saying there aren't plenty of righteous, virtuous, holy people who aren't Christians, or are you just assuming christian dogma in your definition of holy? Also I don't see why we need Christ to have grace? Look at Joseph. God helped him and things turned out for the good for him without any conception of the messiah.
You say Christ is God becoming flesh, well a) I asked you to not assume christian dogma b) this already happened at the immaculate conception or the nativity and c)
>God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?
Numbers 23:19. It is also written, "your ways are not My ways."
And why can we not follow the ways of others who were righteous like Job? We've already given proof that no there is "no man who is righteous and sinneth not".
As for following him up, I think you can just look at Jacob's ladder and his story and see a fine guide.
It just doesn't seem that compelling. The messiah was a Jewish belief that didn't really ever apply to gentiles except in the sense that when he came he would throw off the gentile yoke, which Jesus didn't do. I just don't see why you need to introduce another complicating factor into the theology especially when it creates contradictions in the text like
>To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness
Daniel 9:9. The only way you can make this work os if you assume Christian dogma.

[Anonymous No.21413270]

>>21413263
you quoted the books of Numbers and Daniel
I want to know by what standard do you think those books are canonical, that is, inspired by God.
if you reject the theology of the people who decided the canon for you, you lose the ability to even quote the OT. because who gets to decide which canon of the OT is correct?

[Anonymous No.21413282]

>>21413224
I dunno man. Even James says
>you believe God is one, you do well,
Then there's Deuteronomy 6:4
>Hear O Israel... the Lord is one.
Which Jesus quotes at Mark 12:29. I read the Genesis quote as God speaking with angels.

[Anonymous No.21413292]

>>21413270
That is a different topic altogether and your question dodging but,
God decides what is canon. Man proposes and God disposes.
>A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure
Proverbs 16:9.
In short I believe everything happens because God ordains it.

[Anonymous No.21413304]

>>21412220
Erich Przywara?

[Anonymous No.21413310]

>>21413263
because that was before the Messiah's coming. like Abraham being shown righteous for following God.
what about all the other Israelites, like the ones who asked Moses to go up mount Sinai? because they weren't strong enough to follow God like the patriarchs, should they perish?
the holiest men themselves are not perfect examples. Moses didn't get to enter the promised land for his show of wrath and disobedience. Noah got drunk. Abraham lied. David committed adultery and murder. Solomon became a polygamist, and descended into idolatry. even Joseph, who doesn't have any major sins to his name, sinned. for as the verse goes "all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Joseph was a type of Christ, but still not perfect.
if any man, of any time, went into the holiest of holies, thinking himself clean, he'd fall dead like the sons of Aaron.
should God leave us all to perish? or have our sins atoned for, and open a path to salvation?

on your c point, that is figurative language.
to paraphrase "is God *like* a man (i.e. imperfect) that He may lie?"
Job was following God, so you're just proxying doing the same.

[Anonymous No.21413341]

>>21412999
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dEh25pduQ8

[Anonymous No.21413372]

>>21413310
>should God leave us all to perish?
Creations aren't in a position to tell their creator what he should do. Besides as it says in the pic of the this post >>21412999 if we welcome good should we not also welcome bad? What sort of loyalty is that if we only worship God when we have good things? Besides repentance and good works are how we atone for sin and salvation belongs to God to decide.
I think you just want it to be figurative because that suits your dogma. If God wanted it to be figurative it would read and we'd read "like" but it's definitive "is not a man".

[Anonymous No.21413393]

>>21413372
if God left His crestion to perish He wouldn't be omnibenevolent. it's sinple logic.

and what gives our repentance any value before God? how can any good works atone for the thousandfold worse things we've done?
we don't have the strength, or control over being able to simply "let go" of sin like that.
we're tangled up with a snake, trying to choke us. we chose to have it there, so God won't just remove it. He shows us how to be freed from it, and Christ, the only one perfect, who could truly do so, helps us do the same. we, however, being imperfect, will keep getting bitten, by our desires, urges, and sin.

you're arguing in bad faith twisting Numbers and such.

[Anonymous No.21413399]

>>21413393
well that's a lot of typos.
*creation; simple.

[Anonymous No.21413422]

>>21413282
there is only one God, precisely.
the Trinity isn't "three gods";
it's the three persons of God.
that verse of James is easy to gramatically alter the meaning of. the words don't translate from greek in the exact order.
"echad" which is the hebrew for one in deuteronomy, also means 'united', for a little curiosity.
for something else Christ said
>"the Father and I are one."
John 10:30

[Anonymous No.21413426]

>>21413341
>"I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”"
Gen 3:15, in order to read this as messianic prophecy I'd argue it's necessary to assume chrisitian dogma. Otherwise it's just saying there will be enmity between people and whatever you want the snake to represent. I'll grant that Isaiah 53 reads very much like a protogospel but I think it can be explained by either a) gospel writers emphasising points of commonality between the two narratives or b) this isn't meant on Isaiah's part to be taken as a description of something to come but a prescription for what makes a righteous person.
At any rate, the point remains, if the father can't forgive the sins without the son that means that it is a limitation of the omnipotence of the father, if he can then what is the need of the son? If they are the same then why do we make a distinction? Would God mislead us and deliberately confuse us? Then he is not omnibenevolent. If they are different and one can forgive sins and one can't one is God and not the other and the one who does forgive sins is God and the other not.
I just really don't get it.

[Anonymous No.21413428]

>>21413282
>i read the Genesis quote as God speaking with angels.
they are not alike God for Him to say He would "make them in our image". the angels and God are not the same, so that cannot be it.

[Anonymous No.21413447]

>>21413426
we need Christ because God gave us free will. it's not a limitation of His power, it's agency He freely gives us.
Christ is the way for us to get to the Father.
recognizing our sins and errors, repenting, and following the path and example God made and set.
it's the choice of following God fully being made open, while before Him our path that way was closed by our own sinful ways and desires.

again, take a copy of Mere Christianity, Lewis also goes over the Trinity.
Christ is God's Word, through whom everything was made.