/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21379287]

Where do i go from here

[Anonymous No.21379290]

>>21379287
To the next book.

[Anonymous No.21379314]

Stop right there.
When I read that book i felt like it didnt have a plot, it was just a guy going on an adventure and things happened but nothing really mattered to the plot. Retards on lit told me to read the next books and everything will make sense, but it didnt. Nothing ever matters to the plot.

[Anonymous No.21379361]

>>21379314
Have you read the coda and the following trilogy and quadrilogy? If not then your opinion is invalid

[Anonymous No.21379378]

>>21379287
Mix it up with Dying Earth, Hyperion, Earthsea, or Lankhmar.

I can never read a series without breaking it up.

[Anonymous No.21379441]

>>21379361
It seems to me that if the story is shit if you haven't read the sequels then the story is objectively shit on its own and relies on the author retconning the shit to make it good.

[Anonymous No.21379458]

>>21379287
Read the next book, and the next and the next and the one after that. Then come back and schizopost about the plot because Severian vacillates between being a liar or being too autistic to notice the big picture.

[Anonymous No.21379465]

>>21379441
Urth is worth reading for the Gosepl section, I teared up at that part.

[Anonymous No.21379634]

>>21379441
>the book is shit because the prologue makes no sense without the rest on the book
What a dumb tranny

[Anonymous No.21379775]

>>21379634
It's not just that it doesn't make sense. The author makes blatantly stupid decisions like killing off the autarch right next to severian so he can wrap the story up lazily. No amount of sequels can fix shit like that.

[Anonymous No.21379828]

>>21379287
Why are Catholicfags the only one that write S-tier literature?

[Anonymous No.21379872]

>>21379828
How is this series Catholic?

[Anonymous No.21379900]

>>21379872
The author is

[Anonymous No.21379927]

>>21379287
you've only just begun

[Anonymous No.21379971]

>>21379927
I try to read a different genre after
each book, and a different author when returning.

Reading Dying Earth now (It's phenomenal), will I miss out if I were to read the first in the New Sun series afterwards then hop back?

[Anonymous No.21380010]

>>21379971
You should read the new sun books altogether. They are confusing so you want to give your full attention

[Anonymous No.21380030]

>>21379971
>>21380010
>>21379927
>wolfefags are now claiming that book of the reddit sun is the "best rendition" of the dying earth genre
AHAHAHAHAH

[Anonymous No.21380033]

Overall, I found nothing unique in Wolfe. Perhaps it's because I've read quite a bit of odd fantasy; if all I read was mainstream stuff, then I'd surely find Wolfe unpredictable, since he is a step above them. But compared to Leiber, Howard, Dunsany, Eddison, Kipling, Haggard, Peake, Mieville, or Moorcock, Wolfe is nothing special.

Perhaps I just got my hopes up too high. I imagined something that might evoke Peake or Leiber (at his best), perhaps with a complexity and depth gesturing toward Milton or Ariosto. I could hardly imagine a better book than that, but even a book half that good would be a delight--or a book that was nothing like that, but was unpredictable and seductive in some other way.

I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never really did. It all plods along without much rise or fall, just the constant moving action to make us think something interesting is happening. I did find some promise, some moments that I would have loved to see the author explore, particularly those odd moments where Silver Age Sci Fi crept in, but each time he touched upon these, he would return immediately to the smallness of his plot and his annoying prick of a narrator. I never found the book to be difficult or complex, merely tiring. the unusual parts were evasive and vague, and the dull parts constant and repetitive.

The whole structure (or lack of it) does leave things up to interpretation, and perhaps that's what some readers find appealing: that they can superimpose their own thoughts and values onto the narrator, and onto the plot itself. But at that point, they don't like the book Wolfe wrote, they like the book they are writing between his lines.

[Anonymous No.21380037]

>>21380033
Then there is the fact that every character you meet in the story turns up again, hundreds of miles away, to reveal that they are someone else and have been secretly controlling the action of the plot. It feels like the entire world is populated by about fifteen people who follow the narrator around wherever he goes. If the next two books continue along the same lines, then the big reveal will be that the world is entirely populated by no more than three superpowered shapeshifters.

Everyone in the book has secret identities, secret connections to grand conspiracies, and important plot elements that they conveniently hide until the last minute, only doling out clues here and there. There are no normal people in this world, only double agents and kings in disguise. Every analysis I've read of this book mentions that even the narrator is unreliable.

This can be an effective technique, but in combination with a world of infinite, unpredictable intrigue, Wolfe's story begins to evoke something between a soap opera and a convoluted mystery novel, relying on impossible and contradictory scenarios to mislead the audience. Apparently, this is the thing his fans most appreciate about him--I find it to be an insulting and artificial game.

I agree with this reviewer that there is simply not enough structure to the story to make the narrator's unreliability meaningful. In order for unreliable narration to be effective, there must be some clear and evident counter-story that undermines it. Without that, it is not possible to determine meaning, because there's nowhere to start: everything is equally shaky.

At that point, it's just a trick--adding complexity to the surface of the story without actually producing any new meaning. I know most sci fi and fantasy authors seem to love complexity for its own sake, but it's a cardinal sin of storytelling: don't add something into your story unless it needs to be there. Covering the story with a lot of vagaries and noise may impress some, but won't stand up to careful reading.

[Anonymous No.21380150]

>>21379314
fridge temp IQ

[Anonymous No.21380206]

>>21379287
Wolfe is a hack

[Anonymous No.21380297]

>>21379441
Nothing gets retconned you inbred illiterate

[Anonymous No.21380328]

>>21380297
>Brings back typhon again after he died like a bitch in botns.
Also it's funny how typhon didn't recognize severian as the conciliator despite having met him before.

[Anonymous No.21380530]

>>21380328
>Also it's funny how typhon didn't recognize severian as the conciliator despite having met him before.
anon... he DID recognize him. That's why he tried so hard to tempt him with dominion over the earth. That's literally what the whole point of the scene is about. Did honestly just read it as typhon offering the literal world to this random homeless vagabond who stumbled upon his corpe on a whim?

[Anonymous No.21380577]

>>21380010
this art sucks

[Anonymous No.21380598]

>>21379927
Is Jack Vance easier then Wolfe? I got lost so many times when reading BoTNS.

[Anonymous No.21380668]

>>21380598
They're completely different in style and tone. Vance writes in series of episodic short stories meant to entertain and make you laugh. I'm not saying that to disparage Vance btw, his stories are genuinely funny and written in a clever style that's unique to him.

[Anonymous No.21380684]

>>21380598
Yes

[Anonymous No.21380852]

>>21379872
Severian is one of the most obvious Christfigures in all of literature

[Anonymous No.21380856]

>>21380037
Why did you copy and paste a post you made a week ago. I’ll tell you now the same thing I told you then - you didn’t understand the book.

[Anonymous No.21380930]

>>21380033
>nothing unique in Wolfe
This is contrarian pseud posturing; you can dislike New Sun without baldly denying how unique it is. Nobody has ever written anything like it.
Plus the guy is dumbly saying "Wolfe" as if referring to his entire career when he's only talking about New Sun.
>Mieville, or Moorcock
Hahaha. Might as well list Martin and Rowling in there. This guy is trying to flex his reading credentials but fails to mention Hodgson, Smith, or Vance. Why in god's name would a person expect Wolfe to read like Peake or Leiber? Because he's a poser. It's strong evidence right off the hop that this guy is a consumer of mainstream and conventional fantasy, and quite simply too stupid for Shadow of the Torturer.
>I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never really did. It all plods along without much rise or fall, just the constant moving action to make us think something interesting is happening.
He kept waiting for something to happen, but it never did, because all that happens is "constant moving action"? This is incoherent. Please don't tell me you rate this guy's opinion on literature.
>his annoying prick of a narrator
Another 'Severian is evil because he occasionally has sex' guy. Many such cases and never fails to make me chuckle.
>I never found the book to be difficult or complex, merely tiring. the unusual parts were evasive and vague
>The whole structure (or lack of it) does leave things up to interpretation
Another blatant contradiction that belies the truth here. He got filtered and is trying to save face.
I get that New Sun isn't some people's cup of tea, but for most of you, the real issue couldn't be said more loudly and clearly: You are not capable of understanding or appreciating something this complex.

[Anonymous No.21380933]

>>21380037
>Every character you meet in the story turns up again, hundreds of miles away, to reveal that they are someone else and have been secretly controlling the action of the plot.
Not true. Go ahead and name all the characters who fit this description.
>It feels like the entire world is populated by about fifteen people who follow the narrator around wherever he goes.
Name the 15 characters.
>If the next two books continue along the same lines, then the big reveal will be that the world is entirely populated by no more than three superpowered shapeshifters.
Did he ever follow up on this? I doubt it because he would have to walk his lies and exaggerations back.
>Everyone in the book has secret identities, secret connections to grand conspiracies, and important plot elements that they conveniently hide until the last minute, only doling out clues here and there.
False. Name the characters and give examples.
>Every analysis I've read of this book mentions that even the narrator is unreliable.
This is an astonishing statement given that he's apparently halfway through the series at the time of writing it. He's ass deep in the story and needs "analysis" to explain what he's reading to him.
>This can be an effective technique
Again, a very telling statement that should be making someone reading his review raise their eyebrows. It "can be" an effective technique? Well, is it?? You are reading the story! You are the reviewer! Tell us whether you think it is an effective technique, based on your reading.
He honest to god can't, because he's an unwitting Dunning-Kruger case study who was not capable of a meaningful reading of New Sun.
>Wolfe's story begins to evoke something between a soap opera and a convoluted mystery novel, relying on impossible and contradictory scenarios to mislead the audience. Apparently, this is the thing his fans most appreciate about him—I find it to be an insulting and artificial game.
This is like when you have to write the essay the night before it's due. He has no grasp of the material and nothing to say, and is trying to meet a word count. This continues to the end of the post. Everyone who went to post-secondary school knows what bullshitting like this is, and how to do it.
But the next two parts stand out enough to comment.
>There is simply not enough structure to the story to make the narrator's unreliability meaningful. In order for unreliable narration to be effective, there must be some clear and evident counter-story that undermines it.
I highlight this because he fails to provide any examples from the text to back up his argument.
>I know most sci-fi and fantasy authors seem to love complexity for its own sake
Likewise. Give us examples of the other authors. Give us examples from New Sun. Compare and contrast. Again, he is bullshitting.

[Anonymous No.21381015]

>>21379287
Wolfe is a hack.

[Anonymous No.21381040]

>>21380852
You know nothing of Christianity.

[Anonymous No.21381838]

>>21380598
Yep, a much lighter read. Having said that, as another anon said, there is a lot of humour present in Vance's fantasy and his style that really works. You said you'd like to mix it up, so instead of reading his Dying Earth stuff, try the first Lyonesse novel called Suldrun's Garden. His prose is less dense than Wolfe's but still quite lovely.

[Anonymous No.21382015]

>>21380530
you're just imagining things to cover up plotholes
furthermore that doesn't change the fact he was introduced as a major player only to be killed off.

[Anonymous No.21382088]

>>21380930
>>21380933
dude, it's just a low effort copypasta, no need to feed the troll

[Anonymous No.21382447]

>>21380033
>Mieville

[Anonymous No.21382530]

>>21382088
The replies were also copypasta.

[Anonymous No.21382535]

only 2022 /lit/ could ruin a book with copypasta like this

[Anonymous No.21383595]

>>21382088
Simply refute me. Otherwise, I remain unrefuted, having raped JG Keely in the bussy.

[Anonymous No.21383609]

why do sci-fi fags keep trying to escape their containment thread with mr. walrus man

[sage No.21383620]

I read the first one and thought it was boring too. All my friends love it though. I don't understand the hype

[Anonymous No.21383668]

>>21379775
So you've read the whole Quartett? Also book of the new sun is one book in four parts that poore Dr. Robotnik had to split up for money. But there is no need to read long and short sun, unless you've liked the fist series, of course. Urth is like a cheat sheet to spoonfeed the tards.

[Anonymous No.21383679]

>>21383668
Urth is still good.

[Anonymous No.21383682]

>>21383620
>All my friends love it though
Where are your friends? Can I be friends with them. None of my friends read anything

[Anonymous No.21383686]

>>21383668
>there is no need to read long and short sun, unless you've liked the fist series, of course. Urth is like a cheat sheet to spoonfeed the tards.
The fuck. Many people would argue that Short Sun is the best. While Urth is very good on its own

[Anonymous No.21383701]

>>21383609
Wolfe discussion on /lit/ predates /sffg/, tourist.

[Anonymous No.21383705]

>>21383679
>>21383686
I love urth and the tard thing was hyperbole but I do belive that book of the new sun doesn't need any sequels. But who wouldn't want more of the good shit.

[Anonymous No.21384093]

[Anonymous No.21384333]

>>21379287
I read this about 10 years ago and I still remember entire sections vividly.
I'm not gonna claim I understood everything about it but the bits that I did were outstanding and memorable. And I can't wait to revisit it one day.
This book is one hell of a filter for people with no imagination or poor imagination.

[Anonymous No.21384345]

>>21384333
>I have no way of knowing whether you, who eventually will read this record, like stories or not. If you do not, no doubt you have turned these pages without attention. I confess that I love them. Indeed, it often seems to me that of all the good things in the world, the only ones humanity can claim for itself are stories and music; the rest, mercy, beauty, sleep, clean water and hot food (as the Ascian would have said) are all the work of the Increate. Thus, stories are small things indeed in the scheme of the universe, but it is hard not to love best what is our own—hard for me, at least.

[Anonymous No.21384487]

>>21384093

[Anonymous No.21384505]

>>21384333
>>21384345
Trite, amateurish prose

[Anonymous No.21384565]

I would have liked it more if /lit/ hadn't blown it up as some great work of literature. It was good. Not my favorite genre fiction or even more literary genre fiction. I liked Red Shirts (also takes a bit to pay off) and Vurt more.

I liked Dune, Hyperion, and The Darkness That Comes Before more too. Thankfully, I read The Darkness That Comes Before before retarded Bakkerfags and retarded fanboy false flag Bakkerfags (seems equal mix both) spammed the shit out of /sffg/ and the board more generally or I probably would have felt let down there too.

Not that popular opinion or critic's opinions are a great metric, but it does seem like the really good sci-fi and fantasy gets elevated to the general fiction section of book stores and libraries. For example, Borges isn't considered fantasy, neither is 100 Years of Solitude or Beloved, not Pelevin or Murakami. Likewise Brave New World, The Handmaid's Tale, The Remains of the Day, 1984, and The Road aren't generally thrown into the sci-fi category.

Having read those, I would agree they are a meaningful step above the genre work in general. Wolfefags make it out like this is also one of those; I really don't think it is.

[Anonymous No.21384599]

>>21379290
/thread

[Anonymous No.21384761]

>>21382015
>you're just imagining things to cover up plotholes
no. it's not imagining anything. It's literally the only way to read the passage that makes any sense. it's not even a debate.

[Anonymous No.21384881]

>>21380933
>Again, a very telling statement that should be making someone reading his review raise their eyebrows. It "can be" an effective technique? Well, is it?? You are reading the story! You are the reviewer! Tell us whether you think it is an effective technique, based on your reading.

You sound like a shitty high school English teacher, or worse, someone who thinks their shitty high school English teacher was smart enough to imitate.

He was saying that reveals and ambiguity aren't necessarily bad in his opinion, but that they are bad in this case. It's like the difference between "I didn't like the meal because it was fish and I hate fish," and "fish can be good but this fish was not."

[Anonymous No.21385127]

>>21380856
It's copy pasted from a GoodReads reviewer who takes themselves way too seriously.

[Anonymous No.21385943]

>>21379287
Continue with the Claw of the Conciliator and the rest of the series, you have 11 more novels to go.
>>21379872
The Torturers (the Honorable Order of Seekers for the Truth and Pentience) are canonically the evolution of Catholics.