>If the stories in the Bible didn't happen literally then they have no meaning or value as metaphor either. Why are there so many retarded Christians who believe this?

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Anonymous Fri Dec 9 15:13:19 2022 No.21362379 [Reply] [Original]

>If the stories in the Bible didn't happen literally then they have no meaning or value as metaphor either.
Why are there so many retarded Christians who believe this?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 15:37:03 2022 No.21362448 >>21362379 >If the stories in the Bible didn't happen literally then they have no meaning or value as metaphor either. This is obviously false but If you claim something really happened, but it actually didn't, yeah, that kinda breaks they toy anyway

Anonymous Fri Dec 9 15:55:59 2022 No.21362503

>>21362379
if the supernatural shit isn't literally true, there is no point of being a christian. if the miracles were just a metaphore then the eternal life that's supposed to be your reward for following christ could also turn out to be just a metaphore. paul knew this: if christ did not literally defeat death then christianity is worth nothing, he says as much in one of the epistles.

Anonymous Fri Dec 9 15:59:53 2022 No.21362523

Christianity falls apart the second you apply even the most primitive level of reasoning to its wacky tenets. There are hilarious accounts of jesuits trying to convert native indians and getting btfo by simple lines of reasoning, their only reponse being "muh faith muhfugga".

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:03:53 2022 No.21362538 >>21362503 Non sequitur

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:06:31 2022 No.21362547 >>21362538 which part?

Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:15:18 2022 No.21362581

>>21362503
Right. Without real miracles it is just Brothers Grim Fairytales. Maybe thematically useful but you would be stupid to worship a character in a fairytale, since fairytales don't literally change anything for it's followers. It only changes perspective. So without the divinity of Jesus Christ, Christianity is just the world's most popular fandom.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:16:46 2022 No.21362586 >>21362523 Read Kant's Critique of Pure Reason if you want an explanation for why faith is neccassary for any and all religious views.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:18:21 2022 No.21362590 >>21362379 Are the Christians in the room with us right now?

Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:18:31 2022 No.21362592

>>21362503
to be more specific, it's in 1 corinthians 15:
>...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.
>If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.
he knew: there is no value to be had in making the promises christianity makes "metaphorically." it's either literally true or a monstrous, unforgivable scam. if it's just a trick to teach you cute little lessons about living then all priests should hang.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:20:32 2022 No.21362597 File: 147 KB, 800x789, C7BCE8F3-3897-4BE6-8D98-B0AC74B5301E.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >talking snakes don’t exist ok? >but tiny bugs you can’t see will kill you if you don’t wash your hands with soap and water

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:43:03 2022 No.21362671 >>21362597 meds

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:46:55 2022 No.21362690 You can literally say the same thing about any random scientific doctrine. >B-but we can prove that Insofar as we can explain things with our own senses, whatever that means.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 16:58:02 2022 No.21362735 >>21362671 dilate

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 17:04:22 2022 No.21362752 >>21362592 It is a rhetoric. It is saying that Christ WAS resurrected, otherwise we are stupid to believe in such things BUT CHRIST WAS RESURRECTED.

Anonymous Fri Dec 9 17:22:21 2022 No.21362808

>>21362379
maybe because that the difference between a religion and a mythology. Maybe you should read what a religion is (a belief, if you dont believe in it, then they are stories, not a religion). Its an a priori fundement.

>>21362586
You dont even have to do that, literally any semi theological version of a religion addresses this. Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 19:34:46 2022 No.21363269 >>21362808 Fundement is not a word

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 9 22:36:46 2022 No.21363866 Bump

Anonymous Fri Dec 9 22:50:47 2022 No.21363910

>>21362503
Could you give references to those accounts? It interests me to know what "natural" reactions to christianity are without the abrahamic upbringing we've all been thourgh consciously or not.
The graeco-roman pagans have had nice come up to christian doctrine too but most of their works have been erased by christian copists.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 00:55:28 2022 No.21364368 Christians are dumb as shit

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 00:56:42 2022 No.21364372 >>21362523 the Bible is about mathematics you fucking British homosexual

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:23:08 2022 No.21364598 Bumping

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:26:49 2022 No.21364608 >>21362379 read the fucking book. He didn't split the sea like in this picture. It took a whole day and night and it happens in real life when you get a strong wind blowing in one direction

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:36:13 2022 No.21364634
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>Dude everything is just a symbol! Buy my course and I'll tell you what it teally means!
This is unironically a more pseud take than just taking the stories at face value. Anti-supernaturalists who try to mangle scripture to fit whatever symbolic interpretation is in vogue are beneath contempt, and some of the least critical thinkers around.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:37:31 2022 No.21364635 >>21364634 Great arguments pseud

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:38:04 2022 No.21364639 >>21362523 >There are hilarious accounts of jesuits trying to convert native indians and getting btfo by simple lines of reasoning, their only reponse being "muh faith muhfugga". This retard thinks /pol/ meme pictures are true.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:39:09 2022 No.21364642 >>21364368 Atheists think a man can becone a woman by wishing really hard.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:40:29 2022 No.21364645 File: 205 KB, 460x842, christian_identity.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21364635 Gaytheists are dysgenic faggots. They don't deserve real arguments.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:43:07 2022 No.21364655 >>21364645 Didn't say I'm atheist retard

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:43:14 2022 No.21364657

>>21364639
There's tons of books about this, they're just rarely ever translated because there's no audience for them. Go grab a .pdf copy of "The Great Debate" if you want to read about Christian Preacher getting absolutely schooled by a Sri Lankan monk for 1/5 of the book, and then spend the remaining 4/5 getting into the nitty gritty of a Buddhist vs Christian debate by said monk and a convert slash political comprador. Similar things exist in the Chinese context. There's also stuff on the longstanding British vs Tibetan debates, wherein British missionaries argued that, because the British had mapped the entire world and not found mount Meru, Islam was clearly false and the Vajrayana Buddhist Lamas should stop being Muslims and convert to Methodism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:43:45 2022 No.21364658 >>21362523 >And then everybody clapped. HEYAHOYAHEYAHOYA

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:44:50 2022 No.21364661 >>21364655 You're either a Baptist or an atheist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:45:14 2022 No.21364663 >>21364655 Then you're some "traditionalist" retard on an Evola kick or some such freemason bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:47:41 2022 No.21364672 >>21364657 >Sri Lankan monk What do a bunch of backwards shit skins know about logic? You people always say Christianity is irrational and then simp for savages.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:49:07 2022 No.21364673 >>21364672 The majority of Christians are Africans and Mestizos, anon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 02:50:29 2022 No.21364676 >>21364673 After being converted by superior whites.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 04:30:33 2022 No.21364958

>>21362379
it's one thing to be a story that's understood as a metaphor, but they're claiming it's their HISTORY. At best it's edited history.
The whole story of how the Hebrew slaves acquired weapons and an army is obviously made up. Moses parted the sea and the Egyptian army died when the water returned, okay fine, but then the weapons just floated to the surface instead of sinking to the bottom? And the Hebrews collected those weapons and armor and then divided their host up into commanders and generals and sergeants (even though these people supposedly had no former military training) and took over a wealthy kingdom?
it's edited history. At least the Old Testament. It's not about "moral lessons", it's pure propaganda passing itself off as history meant to mindcontrol the masses into obeying the absolute power of the priests (not unique in history, many cultures did this)

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 05:44:18 2022 No.21365191

>>21362503
>if christ did not literally defeat death then christianity is worth nothing, he says as much in one of the epistles.
That is the problem of the thing; it's a paradox and non-sequitur, as the religion insists it's to be taken literally at the expense of ones own life because "immortality for all time!" is the (rather childish) big selling point. I've studied this for years and have actually come to really enjoy it lol ... it's a very strange outcome, though, whereupon the religion - at least when the goyim picked it up - becomes a kind of ouroboros loop of nihilism (hatred toward the world, hating the body, hating heterosexuality, literally: virtue is not important) for the believer.

>pablo
Although it must be said that Paul and Jesus were reforming Judaism (or abramic theocracy, rather) to get rid of the evil things in it, and probably had no idea whatsoever that nations of non-jews would have picked it up centuries later and turned it into a non-sequitur ideology.

I think it's a huge surrealism, and objectively rather a tragic and poor comment upon the general intelligence of the non-jew converts than it is actually 'amusing' as surrealism is supposed to be. It's a lesson in absurdist ideology also, which people would do well to study in order to understand the ideological proclamations of political followers today (and for all time lol).

>>21362752
>otherwise we are stupid to believe in such things
And that's one aspect of the paradox: this could be said to be 'the' true "moral dilemma" posed by belief, you (not you personally i'm sure) disconnect religion/god from having any real world value and base the focus purely upon "immortality after death" - ignoring the world, virtue, doing useful things, despite going to the religion probably for those very purposes, you can't do those things because to focus on those things would require understanding that the religious fables were not 'literally' true and thus the immortality promise not being literally true either, so the 'believer' is perpetually trapped in a seemingly unresolvable brain-teaser.

Add pain of death for non-belief into the equation and the thing becomes quite the little Witch Cult.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 05:55:23 2022 No.21365229

>>21364958
>it's pure propaganda passing itself off as history meant to mindcontrol the masses into obeying the absolute power of the priests
Imagine spewing typical marxist freemason horseshit and accusing others of being "mindcontrolled". Retarded faggot
>Duhhh where did they get weapons
Smithery

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 06:02:30 2022 No.21365247 >>21362379 Brainwashed by secular pop culture like the atheist retards >>21362503 Atheists and American Christians see the world the same way. They're the same religion with slight surface level differences.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 06:05:28 2022 No.21365256

>>21365229
>they got their weapons from smithery
per the story, they were wandering in the desert, not mining and building cities and blacksmith workshops.

>marxist freemason
nope, not either of those.

>i'm not mindcontrolled by my religion, every other religion is a mindcontrol EXCEPT my religion.
okay lol

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 06:11:28 2022 No.21365269

>>21365229
>>21365247
>Brainwashed by secular pop culture like the atheist retards
>Imagine spewing typical marxist freemason horseshit and accusing others of being "mindcontrolled". Retarded faggot
Also of note in absurdist ideologies is that the believers are forced into a position of enmity and animosity against everybody who speaks sense, or against logic itself. Dissonance and preemptive hostility; sociopathy, stemming from the dissonance.

>the absolute power of the priests
It's the same brain pattern and social dynamic the ideological types today; professing a dogma of obvious nonsense which forces the believers to aggress against all persons and against reason of fear of the dogma being more widely recognized as being a nonsense.

The supreme irony there is that the religious follower believes that the ideological follower is completely the opposite of them BUT YET cannot actually express 'why' the hated ideology is bad and does bad because they'd end up debunking themselves in the process. The ideologe can't debunk the religion properly either, for the same reasoning as debunking themselves.

very devious.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 06:15:18 2022 No.21365276

>>21365256
>wandering in the desert
for 16 or 60 years or something, clearly the story wasn't written by anybody living in that region; the trip from Heliopolis to Canaan is about two week by camel, or a distance smaller than Ireland from east to west.

No knowledge of geography is also a trait of believers in this absurdist ideo-religion.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 13:39:46 2022 No.21366361

>>21362547
All of it.

if the supernatural shit isn't literally true ---> there is no point of being a christian
non sequitur

if the miracles were just a metaphore ---> then the eternal life that's supposed to be your reward for following christ could also turn out to be just a metaphore
non sequitur

if christ did not literally defeat death ---> then christianity is worth nothing
non sequitur

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 13:42:54 2022 No.21366365 >>21362581 Retarded post. Metaphor is a type of language. Also a bunch of non sequiturs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 13:47:20 2022 No.21366377 >>21365247 Good point. Literalism is materialism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 17:37:38 2022 No.21366903 File: 713 KB, 1788x1194, lahontant quotes.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21364658 Pic related. inb4 "the chieftain was made up" despite recent scholarship proving his existence and his reputation for intelligence

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 18:48:19 2022 No.21367182 >>21362448 Fpbp

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:04:19 2022 No.21367246 >>21362379 If you don't believe in them both literally AND metaphorically, you aren't a true Christian. You would lack faith and as such be sent to the lack of fire on the day of judgement.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:13:11 2022 No.21367263

>>21367246
oh.
does it matter which faith you believe in? does it have to a specific one? or just any version of Christianity? can it be islam or buddhism or some other religion, just as long as it's a religion?
what if someone adhered to all the rules, but just didn't believe the history or the metaphors of it?

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:40:00 2022 No.21367323

>>21367263
The Summa Theologica is there if you actually want this question answered by someone who isn't just some guy on /lit/.
>THE NATURE AND EXTENT OF SACRED DOCTRINE
>OF THE ACT OF FAITH
>HOW GOD IS KNOWN BY US
>THE MODE OF EMANATION OF THINGS FROM THE FIRST PRINCIPLE
>OF THE BEGINNING OF THE DURATION OF CREATURES
>THE CAUSE OF EVIL
>TREATISE ON MAN
>OF FREE-WILL
>TREATISE ON THE CONSERVATION AND GOVERNMENT OF CREATURES
>OF SUPERSTITION
>OF IDOLATRY
>OF THE TEMPTATION OF GOD

https://anucs.weblogs.anu.edu.au/files/2013/11/St.-Thomas-Aquinas-Summa-Theologica.pdf

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:41:25 2022 No.21367329 >>21367246 Says who? Also who cares about being a real christian, salvation and truth is what's important not your stupid labels.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:45:08 2022 No.21367334

>>21366903
This is literal basic bitch reddit argumentation
>Why would God become man? Man is icky?
>Doesn't understand what original sin acrually means
>DUDE IT'S JUST LIKE LE HECKIN TELEPHONE GAME
All this just means that fedora fags can only reason to the level of some backwards savage.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:46:51 2022 No.21367338 >>21367329 Then you would not call God a liar by doubting his word.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:48:06 2022 No.21367344 >>21367323 so catholicism? or just that book and ignore the rest?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:50:53 2022 No.21367350 >>21362379 Then why not pick any other story?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:51:17 2022 No.21367353 >>21367334 >wtf how could big chief fucks-his-sister not have heard of st. pederasticus's famous treatise "on penances" wherein... christianity is such a reddit religion lmfao

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:57:22 2022 No.21367385

>>21367344
>OF SCHISM
https://anucs.weblogs.anu.edu.au/files/2013/11/St.-Thomas-Aquinas-Summa-Theologica.pdf
Again, you're not going to get anything out of asking these questions to laymen and using their poorly thought out answers against them to win arguments on the internet. These questions have already been answered by much more intelligent men and women than you and I.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:59:48 2022 No.21367398 >>21367353 Says the guy quoting big chief fucks-his-sister from some obscure book as an authority.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 19:59:49 2022 No.21367399

>>21367353
>>21366903
To be fair, Kondiaronk was being introduced to Christianity through the Jesuits in the late 1600s, and anon is getting butthurt about him not getting the nitty gritty of Thomistic copes, which had been out of fashion among the Catholic intelligentsia for several centuries at that point, and the goofy 1970s post-VII conception of Original Sin that hadn't been invented yet. The fail-sons who were relaying Christian theology to the Indians barely understood it themselves, and they certainly weren't familiar with any kind of apologia for dealing with non-Abrahamics. Arguing for the primacy of revelation from the Jews over empiricism or reason was something these men had simply never had to do, so Kondiaronk asking them how they knew these tales to be true was literally the first time they'd ever had to defend this idea.

The Vatican was, quite literally, not sending its best.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:00:42 2022 No.21367403 >>21367323 The Summa Theologica may be the biggest piece of shit in all of writing. I don't know why cathlarpers on here orgasm over it so much

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:02:15 2022 No.21367412 >>21367398 did you reply to the wrong person? im not sure what this has to do with my post.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:06:11 2022 No.21367432

>>21367398
Kondiaronk is a well attested figure, and was influential in the French colonization of Quebec. He more or less single handedly saved his people from being exterminated by the invading Iroquois, saved the project of New France from being destroyed by Indians, and integrated his people into the economic structure of New France. His life and views come to us from the Jesuits and Voyageurs who met with him.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:07:47 2022 No.21367441

>>21367403
I'm not a Catholic, anon. Just like you don't need to be a Platonist to read works influenced by the philosophy of Plato, you don't need to be a Catholic to read the major works of Catholic doctrine. So instead of asking an anonymous dude on the internet what x school of philosophy's stance on something is, read what the people who shaped that school of philosophy had to say about it.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:16:27 2022 No.21367469

>>21367385
>https://anucs.weblogs.anu.edu.au/files/2013/11/St.-Thomas-Aquinas-Summa-Theologica.pdf
correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it pretty much only catholics who read this and incorporate it into their practice?
I'm reading what you linked, page 1808, and it mentions how it was "Pope Pelasgius that said schism is ..." etc. That means Catholic.
So are you saying that everyone except for Catholics is going to burn in lake of fire?

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:16:41 2022 No.21367470

>>21367399
>>21367432
None of this are difficult concepts that you need to be well-versed in theological minutae to properly grokk. The fact that you're holding up some half-educated spearchucker from the footnotes of Canadian history as a paragon of counter-aplolgetics only shows how mangled your concept of reason is. You cling to the musings of illiterate savages to fortify your position, yet any response is "cope".

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:23:50 2022 No.21367493 File: 179 KB, 1439x1778, atheist_arguments.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21366903 >BIG CHIEF CHEETO DUST SAY IF BIG SPIRIT REAL WHY ME NO SEE HIM HEYAHOYAHEYAHOYAHEYAHOYA!

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:25:10 2022 No.21367499

>>21367469
>So are you saying that everyone except for Catholics is going to burn in lake of fire?
No, just pointing anon to something with more value and authority than my own half-baked guess as to what Christian dogma really is. I could point him towards Orthodox writings just as well, but I'm not Orthodox either. Religion is just a topic I'm interested in.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:49:39 2022 No.21367580 >>21362379 Back in the day people were closer to the Good, with a capital G, nowadays, man's technologies have caused a rift between the spiritual and profane worlds. Thats why no one witnesses miracles in this day and age. Hope that helps

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:56:49 2022 No.21367607 >>21366361 induction induction induction

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:57:21 2022 No.21367609 >>21367580 You're right, they had no tech back then. They magiced those temples into being Retard

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:58:34 2022 No.21367612 >>21367580 Miracles are still witnessed with surprising frequency, anon. Look into the Eucharistic Miracle of Buenos Aires, Legnica, and others. The book here is a good place to start. >>21364634

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 20:58:42 2022 No.21367613 >>21363269 *fundament

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:01:43 2022 No.21367630 >>21362523 >>21366903 >>21367353 >>21367399 T. Some retard who read "Dawn of Everything" and thinks some feathernigger invented the Enlightenment because two anarchist jews told him so.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:03:04 2022 No.21367635 >>21365276 Did you forget the part where they were specifically punished to wander in the desert for their disobedience? Of course not, you never read it in the first place, faggot

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:06:24 2022 No.21367640 >>21367630 >tfw you're christtard who got owned by someone with a caveman philosophy >your shit religion can't even stand up to the questions of people who can't even write Imagine being this much of a failure. How embarrasing

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:06:27 2022 No.21367641

>>21362379
>If the stories in the Bible didn't happen literally then they have no meaning or value as metaphor either.
Because Jesus and the Apostles held them to be literal, so if you deny it, you go against teachings of the New Testament.
> no meaning or value as metaphor either.
Who says it? If there's metaphor, it has value by definition. It's just that if you assume the events of the Torah didn't happen, then your metaphors would not be the same as the Christian ones.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:11:16 2022 No.21367657 >>21362523 lol tell me some of these they sound funny

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:14:02 2022 No.21367662 Christianity is founded on jewish thinking founded by jewish rabbis. Of course on further examination its just jewish fuckery.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:16:05 2022 No.21367670

>>21367640
>LOL! Stupid xtians can't even stand up to the heckin nible savagirino with FACTS AND LOGIC!
>Well, none of the arguments are all that compelling. Most of them are superficial and have already been addressed by theologians
>LOL WHY DO YOU EXPECT AN INDIAN TO KNOW ABOUT ANY OF THOSE?!
Stop being a faggot. If Big Chief Firewater's critiques are no better than the average reddit teebager and easily dispatched by basic apologetics, then you don't get to cite him as " le Epic pwner of xtians".

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:16:28 2022 No.21367676 >>21362379 They did happen literally, as in they were written down. The Bible is "literally" true.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:19:26 2022 No.21367684

>>21366361
>if the supernatural shit isn't literally true ---> there is no point of being a christian
>non sequitur
Wrong. Denying the supernatural events denies the dogma of Christianity, so you're no longer a Christian by definition. Of course you can still believe whatever you want and think Jesus was some enlightened dude, but such a belief is not in line with the Christian Church.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:21:39 2022 No.21367689 >>21367662 Jews did not exist until after the New Testament in response to Christianity (See Judaism Discovered by Michael Hoffman). If anything, atheism is more Jewish than Christianity.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:25:45 2022 No.21367708

>>21367670
>>Well, none of the arguments are all that compelling. Most of them are superficial and have already been addressed by theologians
Care to share them? I'm genuinely interested in how Christians addressed these basic and obvious counter-arguments to their religion.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:28:17 2022 No.21367719 >>21367689 Lmao you fucking retard.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:29:52 2022 No.21367725

>>21367635
>Did you forget the part where they were specifically punished
OH YEA, cos that totally doesn't sound like the same random cop-out the hebrews used all the time; if they're bad it's not because hebrew A did XYZ, it's CUZ as a commune-ity they ain't banging their head against the wall of titus hard enough. makes sense.

to a fucking impressionable yet deviant (unwilling to actually take account for A hebrew doing XYZ) retard.

>>21365191
>>21365269
kind of disappointed in the lack of angry responses to this.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 21:49:18 2022 No.21367789

>>21367670
Lol, what an embarrasment.
>by my definition, where 'winning' means being totally embarrased, we totally won!
>when are basic assumptions are being challenged, it's really just superficial and already adressed by padre Pedo, in a tract that I conveniently can't give you

Christlarpers truly are the male feminists of the divine, all pathetic, underhanded and weak.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:29:45 2022 No.21367955 >>21367684 so if you lead a virtuous life and do stuff, it doesn't matter and isn't important, you're inferior to a cult telling people that they'll be immortal for doing nothing but saying 'god' once in a while.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:36:41 2022 No.21367983 >>21367789 >in a tract that I conveniently can't give you There's no one, specific tract you retarded faggot. All of rhis is addressed in any basic apologetics.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:39:04 2022 No.21367991 >>21367719 The Talmud is younger than the Gospels, is it not?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:40:05 2022 No.21367996 >>21367708 Literally any apologetics work.

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:40:12 2022 No.21367997

>>21367955
you're mistaken in believing you could ever be virtuous enough to deserve christ's sacrifice. god loves you despite your sins, not because of the good deeds you've done.
>And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:43:26 2022 No.21368012 >>21367991 HAHAHAHAHAHAH WHAT A FUCKIN RETARD

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:46:05 2022 No.21368018

>>21367997
>you're mistaken in believing you could ever be virtuous enough to deserve christ's sacrifice. god loves you despite your sins, not because of the good deeds you've done.
yeah thats my point, you've relegated being virtuous as way beneath some pedophile who says 'god is good, i am an evil person'. its true for the most dogshit person, but not for anybody else.

you elevate scum above humanity, in short. and worship scum.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:51:04 2022 No.21368039 >>21367996 >apologetics work. Which ones provide the most compelling arguments instead of awkward sophistry?

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:55:08 2022 No.21368061

>>21366361
>>21367955
a christian is someone devoting himself to christ in exchange for salvation from death, with the act that both enables and proves the salvation being the death and resurrection of christ himself. if the act that enables christian salvation did not take place, then salvation is not taking place either and christianity is straightforwardly false.

christianity is specifically a supernatural belief, a cosmic promise of the end of death. if you just think that christ was right about being nice to people or whatever, that makes you a secular humanist who thinks the bible's neat, not a christian. if you just think the world was better when the church had more power and gays had to hide more etc then you're a political activist that finds the bible useful to his project, not a christian. this of course leaves very few real christians on planet earth but that shouldn't be surprising, that shit's pretty wild.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 22:56:12 2022 No.21368067 >>21368018 you're just accusing me of doing a bunch of things i don't, and frankly i have no idea how you could come to that conclusion unless you're trying to get me to argue with you

Anonymous Sat Dec 10 23:42:55 2022 No.21368258

>>21368061
>a christian is someone devoting himself to christ in exchange for salvation from death,
i wish they were more open about this: it's not about actually doing anything good, like a religion might, but about "immortality forever."

>>21368067
you just haven't thought it through properly.
1) you accuse me of "sinning" (and yourself i suppose)
2) you elevate the confession of a failed man (a sinner) above the life of a virtuous man.

what is the point of this religion except that it falls obviously into the trap I typed out earlier today, here: >>21365191
>And that's one aspect of the paradox: this could be said to be 'the' true "moral dilemma" posed by belief, you (not you personally i'm sure) disconnect religion/god from having any real world value and base the focus purely upon "immortality after death" - ignoring the world, virtue, doing useful things, despite going to the religion probably for those very purposes, you can't do those things because to focus on those things would require understanding that the religious fables were not 'literally' true and thus the immortality promise not being literally true either, so the 'believer' is perpetually trapped in a seemingly unresolvable brain-teaser.

eyou believe jesus died for you but you worship him to gain immortality for yourself, your thoughts of you doing anything "good" has been pushed to very back and it is unimportant for someone who "believes in" jesus,

a person who says "i believe in jesus" might be a depraved failure of a human being, but that person saying that is more important than a virtuous person, who you ignore. except to circle back to "only jesus is", which is ... circular.

> unless you're trying to get me to argue with you
yeah kind of, i'm hoping for you see the light and give up on this terrible belief.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 10 23:45:47 2022 No.21368267 >If the stories in the Bible didn't happen literally then they have no meaning or value as metaphor either. Well, yeah, it's basically atheism with extra steps and funny hats at that point.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 00:05:31 2022 No.21368347 >>21367329 anon if you doubt any of that actually happened that means you lack faith in the works and actions of your religious figures, how would you find "salvation" if you aren't faithful to the legitimacy of the Bible's accounts?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 00:12:55 2022 No.21368371 File: 262 KB, 512x499, 1562570479891.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21362379 >he's a plotfag Oh NO NO NO NO

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 00:19:29 2022 No.21368391 >>21367991 The Talmud as a collection, yes, but a number of the texts in the collection pre-date Jesus. Avodah Zarah, for example, was written somewhere between 200-100BC.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 01:04:13 2022 No.21368554 >>21367609 Not an argument >>21367612 I'm sure, but with much less frequency

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 01:39:41 2022 No.21368655
File: 124 KB, 576x810, P97262D.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21362379
>The Exodus isn't real because...IT JUST ISN'T, OK?!
There is more than enough evidence to argue for the validity of the historical truth of the Bible, the only reason to do otherwise woukd be to preserve the flimsy foundation of skepticism on which modernity rests.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 04:01:46 2022 No.21369098 holy shit literalists are dumb

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 04:09:09 2022 No.21369120 >>21369098 Thank you for your contribution.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 04:39:38 2022 No.21369186 >>21362379 If this is bait good job. If not get help.

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 12:20:13 2022 No.21370116

>>21362379
It's kind of true, everything in the Bible is accredited to an absolute, metaphysical source - God. Where did the morals come from, then? Who gave Moses tablets? Who killed Job's children? Who made Abraham put his child to the blade?

The arguments by people such as Žižek fall short because St. Paul and Hegel aren't the norm in history, they're quite the exception and Nietzsche talks extensively about this. In other words, there is no reason to participate in Christian ethics and idealism because the source is The Big Other. The Bible and by extension the Chuch is more about praising God than the hippie, compassionate Jesus have an image of. Most importantly, one is dependent on the other - one falls off, the other does as well. That leaves us with ritual cannibalism having the same moral weight as charity - in a fleeting world with no big other, both are as good/bad.

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 12:33:19 2022 No.21370142

>>21365191
>Hatred towards the world

You're on this website and more specifically on this board. You're someone who doesn't participate in the everyday activities of people and see it as contingency. You're someone who reads books by some dead German shmuck who needs to tell you how to live. You're the one who's denying life by being enclosed within 4 walls playing Genshin Impact and World of Warcraft, so you're far worse than a monastic on Sinai.

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 13:40:57 2022 No.21370271

A lot of assertions in this thread that you have to believe in the literal to be a real Christian, that the literal has to be true or any other interpretation is false or meaningless/without value too etc, exactly what I said in the OP, but none has anything to back it up other than
>because I said so

>>21367641
>Because Jesus and the Apostles held them to be literal
says who?
>so if you deny it, you go against teachings of the New Testament.
says who?
>if you assume the events of the Torah didn't happen, then your metaphors would not be the same as the Christian ones.
says who?

>>21367684
>Denying the supernatural events denies the dogma of Christianity
says who?

Those who wrote the Bible didn't write about history, the Bible is "divinely inspired".

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 14:38:56 2022 No.21370375 >>21370116 How is your post relevant to the OP exactly?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 16:00:51 2022 No.21370590 The one thing I've learned from talking to christians on 4chan is don't listen to christians, don't take their word for anything, seek truth for yourself

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 16:06:57 2022 No.21370604 >why do people think stupid thing IDK WHY DO ZOOMERS ASK THIS EVERY DAY? WHY CAN'T THEY JUST MAKE THREADS ABOUT THE BOARD TOPIC? WHY CAN THEY ONLY TALK ABOUT OUTGROUP OPINIONS ON THE BOARD TOPIC? MENTAL RETARDATION SUGGESTS ITSELF AS AN ANSWER

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 16:24:07 2022 No.21370648 >>21370604 you forgot something, namefag

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 16:25:12 2022 No.21370651 >>21370590 True. You'll eventually end up back at the Bible though

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 16:29:33 2022 No.21370667 >>21370648 thou forgotst thine meds schizozoom

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 16:30:34 2022 No.21370672 >>21367983 >hey, what answer do you have for this? >a-all of them, r-retard Why are Christtards such embarrasing morons? Also, why are they never ashamed of their own retardation?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 18:42:16 2022 No.21371067 >>21367403 Just got took to the /lit/ wood shed by this>>21367441 >>21367607 Transformer electrical theory ?

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:05:34 2022 No.21371170

>>21370590
>The one thing I've learned on 4chan is [confirmation bias]
Yeah faggot, real profound. You're just going to end up believing some basic bitch atheism or LARPing as an occult initiate like every other "freethinker".
>>21370672
>Just do a google search for this basic answer!
>y-you're avoiding the issue! I win!
William Lane Craig
John Lennox
Robert Sungenis
Catholic Answers
There faggot. I hope I saved you the arduous task of doing a googke search.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:08:21 2022 No.21371182 File: 151 KB, 418x418, ok_fag.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Here is a record of signifigant events >ACKSHULLY IT'S ALL A METAPHOR FOR FATHERHOOD, JORDAN PETERSON SAID SO.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:10:07 2022 No.21371188 File: 29 KB, 807x302, atheism_depression.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Atheists are all depressed homosexuals.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:11:44 2022 No.21371197 File: 96 KB, 680x476, jews-masonry-evolution.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Evolution is occult freemason nonsense.

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:14:40 2022 No.21371207
File: 56 KB, 637x332, pagan_shills.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Notice how atheists can't respond with actual argument, only derision? That's because they have no argument. Only pilpul. Atheism, like all anti-Christian movements is ultimately just an aspect of Jewish subversion. They're either kikes in disguise or useful idiots.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:15:41 2022 No.21371212 File: 295 KB, 1024x1024, jews_islamization.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Attacking Christianity only serves Jewish interest.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:18:49 2022 No.21371224 File: 76 KB, 1007x818, christian_identity2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Christianity is integral to the west. Atheism is integral to clown world.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:30:40 2022 No.21371257 >>21370651 Get my point retard. Didn't say not to read the Bible.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:39:11 2022 No.21371280 >>21371224 The most conservative person I know in real life is an evangelical Christian from Germany. It's unusual to find a non-redneck with similar views in Canada.

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:48:27 2022 No.21371311

>>21362379
>Why are there so many retarded Christians who believe this?
From their perspective they're right.
A story can have meaning but at the end of the day it's just a story.
Christians who concede more and more that the stories didn't literally happen and that they only have metaphorical value are basically just admitting that their religion is just mythology.

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:54:13 2022 No.21371338

>>21362597
Cause it's demonstratable retard.
Doctor used to go from touching blood and shit directly to delivering a baby without washing their hands.
When they made it required for docs to wash their hands the mortality rate for giving childbirth dramatically declined.
Also you can look at germs under a microscope.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:54:34 2022 No.21371339 >>21371257 You have not actually read the Bible, have you? Be honest

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 19:59:05 2022 No.21371361

>>21362690
>You can literally say the same thing about any random scientific doctrine.
>>B-but we can prove that
>Insofar as we can explain things with our own senses, whatever that means.
Funny how Christians become skeptics only when it's convenient.
>you can't trust your senses! Anyways you must believe the words of some rando Semites in the desert was the word of God cause ..um... Just trust us...okay!

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:12:14 2022 No.21371414 In another thread, some guy said that Christians believe that you stay married in heaven, and some other dude said that this is wrong. So, which is it?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:21:55 2022 No.21371468 >>21371414 I just want to know whether you have free will in heaven, and can therefore still sin there and still end up in hell Because that would make Christianity even gayer than it already is

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:23:42 2022 No.21371474 >>21371188 >>21371197 >>21371207 >>21371212 >>21371224 Someone sure is angry. And gay

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:25:00 2022 No.21371479

>>21371414
Are you talking about the thread that just got archived, with the "do souls have genders" debate? The only Christian denomination that believes in gendered souls is Mormonism, and it's also the only Christian denomination that believes that you stay married after death. Catholic doctrine has held, since like 300AD, that the soul is created at birth, and that every soul is unique and genderless. Jews and various Protestants argue that every soul isn't 100% unique, but that they are genderless (or all male). The reasoning for this is that Jesus himself says that there will be no marriage in heaven in Matthew and Luke.

I don't know what the goofy LARPer who was saying otherwise was thinking, this has been a core Christian doctrine for millennia, and could be very easily disproved by googling.

>>21371468
You could have googled this; there is free will in heaven, but the nature of reality is changed such that you can do nothing but sing praises for the divine.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:27:37 2022 No.21371488 >>21371479 >there is free will in heaven, >but the nature of reality is changed such that you can do nothing but sing praises for the divine. Then you don't have free will Retard

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:33:56 2022 No.21371509 File: 59 KB, 420x444, gaytheidm_poll.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21371338 It's also demonstratable that women don't have dicks but you fags seem to think otherwise.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:35:49 2022 No.21371516 >>21371488 After having (willingly) joined your Will itself with Christ's, a soul in heaven would not choose to do anything that would betray the Will of God. What is Apotheosis, deification?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:36:50 2022 No.21371520 File: 21 KB, 720x587, gaytheism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21371468 >>21371474 >fedora fags calling anyone gay

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:49:57 2022 No.21371588
File: 1.98 MB, 1080x792, 1666934302441.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Always found it weird how people drool at the "Fantasy" concept of being melted down into essence to join an infinite, metaphorical pool of boundless consciousness, to be one with the Godhead and so on and so forth, and yet when presented with Christian ideas of Theosis they either can't believe it or just wave it away and divert course to looking into other religions for the same ideas, only needlessly buried in pretentious esotericism and narcissistic ideas of being able to achieve a union with the divine through their own efforts, convincing themselves that they can raise themselves up to face God eye to eye, rather than simply extending an arm to him and accepting his grace to pull them out of sin.
>“I, I am He who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins. Put me in remembrance, let us argue together; set forth your case, that you may be proved right.
>You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would deal very treacherously, and that from birth you were called a rebel. “For my name’s sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not like silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:51:23 2022 No.21371591 >>21371516 Then it has no free will You utter stinking retard

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:53:09 2022 No.21371603 >>21362503 Correct.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:58:02 2022 No.21371620 >>21371509 Actual non sequitur

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 20:59:04 2022 No.21371628 >>21371197 thank you for telling the truth. hopefully all the british will be dead soon

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 21:00:36 2022 No.21371634

>>21371591
so if a child chooses to do as their dad wishes them to do, e.g. doing their chores, eating healthy, and brushing their teeth, then that child has no free will despite the fact that he made the decision, because it's in line with what their dad wanted of them?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 11 22:49:53 2022 No.21372007 >>21371414 Fuck off and make your own thread

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 22:58:01 2022 No.21372039
File: 345 KB, 840x1654, FT_19.01.31_WellBeing_Activelyreligiouspeople_4.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21362581
If religion didn't change anything for their followers, every society wouldn't have come up with some version of it and modern atheists wouldn't be going to stuff like spiritual yoga retreats. Clearly there are benefits to spirituality.

Anonymous Sun Dec 11 23:03:43 2022 No.21372055
File: 50 KB, 576x438, a2c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21371488
Do you think you don't have free will because this reality won't allow you to sprout wings and fly like a bird?

The reality you live in limiting you is not the same thing as choosing to limit yourself.

卐 I V R I × N E M O 卍 !!GgBWHLRiayD Mon Dec 12 01:14:43 2022 No.21372458

>>21362379

1. There are not.

2. One tends toward one's interests, which, in turn, lend themselves to one's interpretations.

The most accurate interpretations stem from those interests which pierce their way to the truth, enabling one to discern, and to reconcile, the literal/concrete with the metaphorical/figurative.

Anonymous Mon Dec 12 04:03:21 2022 No.21373121

>>21367725
The Hebrews got to Kadesh-Barnea fairly quickly, but after the spies gave a negative report and the people murmured, then God determined that they should wander for 40 years before finally returning, and the lives of all those of that generation except for Joshua and Caleb would end before they entered the Promised Land. That's the Biblical account. They were basically forced to do the wandering but only after getting scared of the inhabitants of Canaan and thinking that God wouldn't easily give them into their hand in battle.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 12 04:24:43 2022 No.21373228 >>21372458 >Not many believe the Bible has to be literally true to have any other meaning or value, but I do, and it is the correct view. No, there are many who believe so, and they have no other argument for it than "because I say so".

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 12 04:30:21 2022 No.21373250 >>21372039 >pic poverty makes you happy

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 12 09:17:18 2022 No.21373836 >>21362379 Based and we should burn all books that have a single metaphor in them pilled

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/lit/ - Literature