Learning 日本語 to read Mishima.

[Anonymous No.21361284]

Those of you who can read and appreciate literature in 日本語、 do the translations for Mishima Yukio's works do him justice? A year or two ago, some anon opined on /lit/ that it's essentially the same, if not, better in English. Also, I've only read Mishima's works, how are the rest of the Japanese authors' works and their translations?
If the original works are significantly better, I'm thinking of seriously learning the language as a side hobby.
Also, general Japanese Literature thread.

[Anonymous No.21361291]

>>21361284
Learn chinese or korean instead, you're doing a big mistake learning japanese. I warned you.

[Anonymous No.21361292]

Do japs have souls? I really cant tell.

[Anonymous No.21361294]

>>21361291
>Pov: You're a bayonet wielding Japanese soldier in Nanking

[Anonymous No.21361303]

[Anonymous No.21361329]

The world owes me a cute asian gf

[Anonymous No.21361355]

>>21361329
Stupid meme.

You owe it to yourself to become the perfect mate for a cute girl that might actually be Asian.
Now stop being a lazy ass

[Anonymous No.21361360]

>>21361355
Cope.

The world owes me this on a fundamental ontotheological level.

[Anonymous No.21361367]

>>21361292
>He says while he posts Korean plastic dolls

[Anonymous No.21361368]

>>21361284
I have been resistant to reading him because he's like the only author my sister's boyfriend reads and raves about and this guy is the dictionary definition of a fucking peen so that has really turned me off, can someone talk me into it or recommend where to begin?

[Anonymous No.21361378]

>>21361367
The one on the right is japanese and the one on the left is chinese you rascit bastard

[Anonymous No.21361414]

>>21361284
What's a good starting place for learning Nipponese? I know of Genki but are there any other good books for learning Japanese?

>>21361378
They're going to be bent forward and ontheirnese when I'm done with them.

[Anonymous No.21361419]

>>21361368
Read him, disregard the peen. Mishima was a bit odd..., but very perceptive and gentle, which shows in his works. Start with Confessions of a Mask.

[Anonymous No.21361421]

>>21361414
Read manga unironically

[Anonymous No.21361449]

>>21361360
the one thing this world owes you, anon, is your death
and luckily for us it is coming sooner than later

[Anonymous No.21361453]

>>21361449
Cope.

I will never die.

[Anonymous No.21361455]

so wait is this guy gay??

[Anonymous No.21361467]

>>21361453
you are a weak little bitch and you will live and die without mattering to anyone or creating anything worthwhile

>>21361455
u-uh um... well, not in the modern globohomo sense..

[Anonymous No.21361505]

>>21361453
Fuck off Judge, there's a BM thread AND a Cormac McCarthy thread up, go to one of those.

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDY/Ar.iI No.21361515]

WHY BOTHER? YOU WOULD READ IT IN YOUR ANGLO VOICE ANYWAY.

[Anonymous No.21361592]

>>21361360
>Cope.
I just told you to cope, dumbass

[Anonymous No.21361756]

>>21361414
visual novels and manga are the best books for learning Japanese because they can get you reading real texts quickly

[Anonymous No.21361764]

>>21361515
kys pedo.

[Anonymous No.21361849]

>>21361292
ive met plenty white girls with no light behind their eyes

[Anonymous No.21362122]

23 replies, 13 posters, and no substantive answer from someone who reads in 日本語。。。
I only have myself to blame for using the cute girl gif instead of macho Mishima。

[Anonymous No.21362171]

>>21361756
VNs are good for using a texthooker to get through quickly but imo they are kinda garbage for learning to read imo, because most VNs use niche words you won't really see outside of them. Some VN writers specifically use meme words and kanji on purpose. It's very annoying, actually. One of the reasons I kinda quit Japanese was because the only thing my friends were doing was dickwaving about who could read more VNs. They're repetitive and usually don't feel worth it, only stuff like subahibi or umineko even felt worthwhile but I already read those in English prior. The prose doesn't really feel like anything special, VNs are very plot oriented or character driven. To me this makes them feel lacking compared to actual books. The one thing they have is voices though, which can help a lot but not really with reading as kuch as learning in general. If you need to look up words in manga you have to learn how to draw the kanji in a passable manner, which (for me at least) helps solidify the information a bit more than using texthookers.

[Anonymous No.21362198]

>>21362122
I read books in moonrunes but have barely started reading gogo no eiko because it's comparitively harder to read than normal modern prose. It's not a particularly rewarding challenge to master either since it's basically just learning a dead dialect. Its honestly astonishing how Don Quixote is closer to modern Spanish than Mishima is to Nip.
Not a huge deal as if you're fluent you'll still understand what's going on.
Obviously no opinion yet on Mishimas worth as a writer but beware that translations in general are closer to being a fanfic than to being a copy of the original. Japanese cannot be translated.

[Anonymous No.21362446]

I live in Japan and my Japanese is okay.
I can't read Mishima's works, but know that even it is hard for many Japanese to read. I had Japanese friends in Uni who prefer to read it in English because they said it was easier.
Personally I don't think English and Japanese works are often the same. Essentially the same, sure. Better? I think that's preference.

[Anonymous No.21362454]

>>21361284
konicheewa

[Anonymous No.21363038]

>>21361515
lol

[Anonymous No.21363042]

>>21361292
Asians are more soulless than white people at the very least, but the jews are doing a good job of removing the souls from europeans too.
>t. hapa

[Anonymous No.21363047]

>>21361284
I was wondering why I remembered his name and then realised that he was that dude who killed himself after failed to start a coup against the Japanese government. I've never read any of his works but that sounds morbidly fascinating.

[Anonymous No.21363063]

>>21363047
He knew it would fail, and he intended to die that day. He wanted his death and dedication to rekindle the Japanese spirit.

[Anonymous No.21363230]

>>21361414
I used Anki, Kanjidamage, and Tae Kims guide to japanese grammar. He's updated it since then and made it worse, but It's probably still the best grammar out there.
I combined that with watching tons of anime without subs (painful and pointless seeming at first but super helpful), reading manga (yotsuba first (there are helpful yotsuba chapter by chapter vocab resource stuff out there), then easy romcoms. Eventually I was reading light novels with 80% understanding before I entered college and lost interest.

[Anonymous No.21363333]

>>21361291
No

[Anonymous No.21363475]

>>21361284
I've read the english translation of "A man with no talents", the author is a famous recluse but actually met in person with the translator to iron out any kinks, which greatly increased my confidence in it's authenticity. Worth checking out

[Anonymous No.21363508]

>>21362198
read chingiz aitmatov hes pretty good

[Anonymous No.21364091]

>>21362198
>>21362446
>>21363475
Thank you for your answers.

[Anonymous No.21364233]

>>21361284
There's a ton of untranslated hentai.

[Anonymous No.21364375]

>>21361292
damn this feels like ASMR even though it doesn't have any sound

[Anonymous No.21365278]

>learning japanese
go touch grass incels
have sex incels
leave your momma basement incels

[Anonymous No.21365456]

>>21365278
What?

[Anonymous No.21365819]

>>21361284
i translated one of his short stories from death in midsummer for my japanese translation final exam and i though i did it justice

[Anonymous No.21365911]

>>21365819
That's pretty cool

[Anonymous No.21366153]

>>21361291
muh dikk

[Anonymous No.21366270]

>>21362171
>most VNs use niche words you won't really see outside of them
also 95%+ of the words they use are regular, common Japanese words, which nullifies your argument
>One of the reasons I kinda quit Japanese was because the only thing my friends were doing was dickwaving about who could read more VNs
sounds like a friends problem, not VN problem. but yeah, if you're learning a language for the social aspect, then doing Japanese with internet autists is probably the worst possible choice
>They're repetitive and usually don't feel worth it
thanks to the repetitiveness, they're worth it as a tool for learning to read at a basic level. if you read X scenes that are variations on the same trope, you're going to encounter more n+1 sentences than you would have otherwise
>but I already read those in English prior
that's even better for a beginner learner. it's easier to start with texts you already know. and if you aren't a beginner learner, the post you're addressing wasn't for you

[Anonymous No.21366785]

>>21361284
>Learning 日本語 to read Mishima
not true you piece of weeb shit

[Anonymous No.21367186]

>>21366785
What?

[Anonymous No.21367205]

this mishima cult is really getting out of hand. If he was a white guy NOBODY would care this much

[Anonymous No.21367207]

>>21367205

People read Ernst Junger

[Anonymous No.21367219]

>>21361284
Hmm I've spent the morning pondering and yeah I couldn't do it. I couldn't think of a bigger waste of time

[Anonymous No.21367224]

>>21367207
yeah but Junger is wartime memoirs whereas Mishima is a homosexual man LARPing as an ultranationalist who grooms a bunch of teenagers

[Anonymous No.21367339]

>>21367224
He didn't larp. He wrote multiple and published multiple books, unlike /lit/ larpers. He gained mass, unlike /fit/ larpers. He formed a nationalist group with charisma and leadership. He broke into a military building, tied up the officer, and attempted to incite a military coup. Then he exactly followed the doctrine and philosophy he espoused his entire life and executed himself honorably.
He was the direct and absolute opposite of a larper; that's why larpers love him so much.

[Anonymous No.21367357]

>>21367339
his "coup" was pathetic and he did it knowing he would fail which makes the whole thing even shittier. Otherwise he's your typical pseudbait author with delusions of political relevance.

[Anonymous No.21367361]

>>21367357
ok retard

[Anonymous No.21367406]

>>21367361
>the general who was sponsoring his paramillitary gets taken advantage of
>soldiers laugh at him
>followers fail to behead him
>"Mishima planned his suicide meticulously for at least a year"

Delusions of grandeur suicide fantasy being lived out in public that dragged ordinary people with him. Not based, just stupid

[Anonymous No.21367716]

>>21361284
hi OP,
the English translation of 日本語 is 'Japanese'
glad to be of service!

[Anonymous No.21367801]

Even most Japanese have trouble deciphering Mishima's writing, given his ornate style replete with rare kanji and arcane words. Not only will you learn countless words of no practical use, but you will burn out in the attempt and probably resent the language. Stick to pic related OP

[Anonymous No.21367879]

Is Japanese the most unreasonable language?
>3 writing systems smashed together
>hirigana is logical and phonetic like a normal fucking language
>katakana is completely redundant, used for stupid shit like "loan words"
>Kanji are runes that were stolen from China that have multiple readings depending on the contexts (often times the runes have completely different meaning in Chinese lol). So a gaijin has to remember what the rune means in his native tongue, then he has to remember what it says alone in nip, then he has to remember what it says and means when its attached to other runes in various contexts in nip

I feel like I could learn Russian, a supposedly super hard language, 3x as fast as this clusterfuck of a language. I don't understand why they couldn't have just dropped Kanji after WWII. I hear people cope and say without kanji theirlanguagewouldlooklikethiswhenwritten but they could just have more pronounced spacing between kana then.
>>21367801
I've also heard like this anon says a large number of the population don't even the majority of Kanji. If this is true the language is beyond fucked and needs to be reformed.

[Anonymous No.21367898]

>>21367879
The majority of americans don't know immanentism but that doesn't mean the language needs to be reformed. It's just you white people that keep griping about a problem no asians complain about (except expat EFL fags)

[Anonymous No.21367920]

>>21367879
>>hirigana is logical and phonetic like a normal fucking language
>>katakana is completely redundant, used for stupid shit like "loan words"
You mean like capitals or italics in English?
>(often times the runes have completely different meaning in Chinese lol)
Often that's because they're based on their meaning in Classical Chinese rather than modern Mandarin, like 走 meaning 'run' rather than 'walk' or 這 meaning 'crawl' rather than 'this'.
That said, despite the above complaints, I agree the Japanese writing system is ridiculous. Interestingly, Japanese Braille is actually a sensible phonetic system.

[Anonymous No.21367952]

>>21367879
It's because japs are bugman afraid of making a move. In order to transition from kanji to hiragana or lating alphabet someone in authority would have to make move towards it, but that's impossible for them. They still wear masks there because everyone is too scared to be the first one to take it off.
>"Oh no, what will people think of me if I take it off"
>"Oh no, what will people think of me if I suggest a better writing sytem"
They got utterly cucked by the ww2 loss, remember that during meiji era they seriously considered switching to latin alphabet due to simplicity. They are by far the most buck broken, spineless orientals.
Their women tight as fuck though because of that.

[Anonymous No.21367962]

>>21367952
It's not like English spelling is exactly good either. It's just a matter of societal inertia.

[Anonymous No.21367965]

>>21367962
>It's not like English spelling is exactly good either
what?

[Anonymous No.21367966]

>>21367920
Italics isn't comparable imo. Because italics is identical to standard text. Like look at this: みミ both of these mean mi and they look nothing alike.

I was also thinking about the absurdity of Japanese Kanji some more. The majority of them are unknown to the average Japanese person. That would be like if the general population couldn't even pronounce words that they didn't know lol. Actually you know what it's even more retarded then that, because the Japanese person might actually know the word but not know that the rune means the word.

[Anonymous No.21367981]

>>21367965
https://ncf.idallen.com/english.html
Like, it's not as bad as the Japanese writing system, but it's not good.
>>21367966
>Italics isn't comparable imo. Because italics is identical to standard text. Like look at this: みミ both of these mean mi and they look nothing alike.
Uppercase letters, then. Many of them barely resemble their lowercase counterparts.
>I was also thinking about the absurdity of Japanese Kanji some more. The majority of them are unknown to the average Japanese person.
Aren't most of them also rarely used?
>That would be like if the general population couldn't even pronounce words that they didn't know lol.
I think that applies to English too. Like, you can make an educated guess, but you have a decent chance of being wrong.
>Actually you know what it's even more retarded then that, because the Japanese person might actually know the word but not know that the rune means the word.
That happens to English speakers too. I've heard of people pronouncing "scheme" as "sheem" in their heads and failing to realize it was in fact the spoken word "skeem" which they heard regularly, or similarly with, say, "epitome" or "synecdoche" or... That said, I agree English spelling isn't AS bad as kanji, but it's still pretty bad.

[Anonymous No.21367989]

>>21367966
>>21367879
>Italics isn't comparable imo. Because italics is identical to standard text. Like look at this: みミ both of these mean mi and they look nothing alike.
then it's funny that you brought up Russian as an example, because Russian 'т' looks like 'm' in cursive

[Anonymous No.21368002]

>>21367981
>Like, it's not as bad as the Japanese writing system, but it's not good.
I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. Are you aware that english language is not the only one which uses the latin alphabet? It is also one of the few in which graphemes do not match up with the phonemes. Only english and french have serious problems with this. Most other latin alph. using languages either have perfect or near perfect phoneme to grapheme match up.

[Anonymous No.21368029]

>>21368002
As far as I know French at least has a fairly consistent mapping of spelling to pronunciation, just not the other way around, so if you see it you can say it, but if you hear it that doesn't mean you can spell it. But yes, I agree English is unusually bad as alphabetic orthographies go. I'm just saying, everyone complains about Japanese orthography but never talks about English.

[Anonymous No.21368115]

>>21368029
Probably because there is over a dozen countries which use english as the official language so it would be a disaster trying to coordinate the creation of a new alphabet. I mean sure, one country could their own way but the inertia of the others plus the lingua franca status kinda makes it hard to modernize the alphabet. You can see how none of these problems apply to japan. I guess this is just the way they are.
I'd just add that the biggest problem with logogram based orthography is how much time kids have to spend in school to acquire even the basic literacy knowledge compared to using a perfectly phonemic alphabet. This has some ramifications down the line with mental/personality development, but I won't go down that rabbit hole in this thread.

[Anonymous No.21368173]

>>21368115
They still have the same inertia problem- they'd be rendering all the books printed pre-reform illegible to those educated afterwards. And they'd have to replace all the road signs. And so on. I think that's the main reason why they haven't changed, even if objectively a phonetic system would be much better.

[Anonymous No.21368493]

Mishima says a whole lot of nothing with no substance

why do people like him?

[Anonymous No.21369174]

>>21365819
How beautiful is his composition in Japanese? Does he choose distinctively beautiful words and arranges them in a beautiful manner? I guess what I'd like to know is how his command of the japanese language compares to other jap authors. Do you have any insights on that?

>>21367801
>practical
I'm not concerned about the practical, I just want to experience firsthand his so-called beautiful writing.

>>21368493
I couldn't care less about politics or anything of 'substance'. I like him for his style. Beauty triumphs all.

[Anonymous No.21369211]

>>21368493
He says a lot with a lot of substance. Have you read his essays?

[Anonymous No.21369231]

>>21366270
Most VNs are just literally "I would rather read a book instead."
Inflated word counts and boring prose. They usually have cool moments but as a whole they feel lacking. Almost like they're made just for the moments themselves, to get some sort of reaction from the reader, rather than being cohesive. They are simply too long and every damn time I'm slightly disappointed in the end result.

[Anonymous No.21369297]

>>21361284
I unironically think that Asian "w*men" are the worst and most conspiratorial, manipulative, superficial and ultimately evil, not to mention soulless, due to what I've come to call "eunuch/harem culture". Through centuries of courtly intrigue, conspiracies and schemes, these "people" have had their genes themselves modified to think that manipulation and subterfuge are the best ways to deal with interpersonal problems, this is since their only power is sex and relationships because their bodies fail them due to frailty and smallness. This behavior has been selected for, since the most cunning concubine was the one that got their son in power, such that an arms race of manipulation happened across all courts. By consequence, when you see the stories of crazy girlfriends that fabricate all sorts of claims and scandals to fuck with someone's life, usually their partner's, they're ch*nese, j*panese or k*rean, since it has sadly become their nature to do so. They have a need to conspire, even if they have no one to directly affect. Though, I really dunno, I've never been with a yellow "w*man" in my life, this is just my insight from the outside.

Either way, Chinese is more useful and less retarded than Japanese, but if you really insist just go to actual classes, be them in a university or another institution; teachers are good because they give you the process and material already semi processed, like fire and food

[Anonymous No.21369399]

>>21369297
based
>t. hapa

[Anonymous No.21370102]

>>21367879
I hear Coptic, Tibetan, Thai and the languages that used cuneiform are all similarly bad or worse
I think Tangut takes the prize for absolute retardation though

[Anonymous No.21370117]

>>21369231
am I talking to GPT? you can't just "read a book instead" if you're a beginner learner. that's the entire point

[Anonymous No.21370124]

>>21367879
>Is Japanese the most unreasonable language?
Yes. Even the average Japanese thinks that having 3 writing systems is completely retarded. It's a shame because the language is gorgeous for poetry in particular, but it's such a pain in the ass to learn. I'd rather just learn Chinese, even though the character count to be fluent is a lot higher

[Anonymous No.21370256]

>>21369174
i cant speak to his japanese composition because i wasnt fluent when i did the rranslation and i hardly am still.
i remember being really happy with my prose because it included all the verbosity of japanese without sounding too clunky.
it was fountains in the rain, you can read it online and see how it feels. doing a quick skim theough rn and it does seem like its lacking something unique to japanese itself

[Anonymous No.21370754]

>>21361449
Imaging being so high and mighty that you think you can speak about what another man owns to himself while wishing death on that man just for him wishing to experience (at least partailly) the same thing all his ancestors did.

[Anonymous No.21371047]

>>21370117
The point is reading VN schlock will drive you up the wall because it's garbage, and on top of that it can get to be harder to read than a book because of the unique words. The only benefit it has is hooking, but you're probably better off reading manga.

[Anonymous No.21372307]

Bumpu

[Anonymous No.21373317]

I'm reading Yotsuba&! right now in Japanese next to doing daily Anki training. Good manga :D. Also very good if you want to start reading something in Japanese. This and also Flyng Witch.

[Anonymous No.21373479]

>>21370102
What's so bad about Coptic? It's a straightforward alphabet. I don't think Tibetan or Thai are comparable to Japanese, they're basically many-to-one with slightly complicated rules. Cuneiform might be up there though.

[Anonymous No.21373517]

i couldn't even finish mishima the last debate because it was just so boring. A bunch of pseudo intellectuals talking about nothing

[Anonymous No.21373528]

>>21373517
you wouldn't get it.

[Anonymous No.21373724]

>>21369211

yes i read sun and steel. it's nothing but forgettable gibberish
there is nothing of value in it

[Anonymous No.21374010]

>>21373724
shame.

[Anonymous No.21374501]

>>21368493
he underlined his writings with suicide and made people think there must be substance to it

[Anonymous No.21374616]

>>21367406
You could have just called him gay and saved us some time. Typical narcissistic faggot behavior.

[Anonymous No.21374944]

>>21368002
Only kind of related, but German is incredibly easy to read once you learn the sounds and spellings (e.g. the sch, ch, eu, ie, ei, and umlauts). It's kinda funny how people always make fun of it for being so "difficult" looking, but once you learn the ground rules it's basically child's play.
Only annoyance is when they randomly pronounce loan words with the French accent, e.g. chance.

[Anonymous No.21375535]

>>21374944
Yeah, most languages have better orthographies than English. I think English orthography might be the worst non-logographic writing system, other than perhaps Mongolian. (Or maybe Book Pahlavi if you're willing to include non-current systems.)

[Anonymous No.21376889]

Best /lit/ that's close to Subahibi. I'm game for either schizo psychological thriller and/or forbidden selfcest romance.

[Anonymous No.21377548]

>>21367357
he died at the height of his powers living out the philosophy that he espoused his entire life.
millions of people read his works and know his name 50 years after his death.
no one remembers you when you leave the room.

[Anonymous No.21378001]

>>21361291
how to learn mandarin my dear laowai