/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21345087]

How do you convince a Salafi Muslim who doesn't believe other cultures and intellectual/imaginative traditions contain truths apart from his own, which he takes in the categorical forms of the Qur'an and the Sunnah, to shed his dogmatism and experience the penetrating psychological vision of Shakespeare, or the sublime philosophy of Plato, or the visionary poetry of Blake, Coleridge, and Hart Crane?

The reason why I ask this is because I myself am a Muslim, and I have been struggling with the anti-cosmopolitan texture of Salafi rhetoric, which denies any veracity to the thought of other traditions, which effectively causes the entire Salafi discourse to be almost suffocatingly monological and self-referential, which I could handle, if only they weren't so disdainful of reading philosophy and imaginative literature. The amount of times I was called a heretic for reading Plato and Freud is astounding. What do I say to these people?

[Anonymous No.21345114]

>>21345087
You show him that his tradition is based on the Judaistic, Platonic and Christian traditions, without which Islam would never exist
Oh he thinks that those traditions are flawed and that the reason Islam had to be introduced to Muhammed? Islam is still a continuation of those traditions then, a addition to preexisting traditions
Doesn't he believe in Allahs omnipresence and occasionalism? Allah is present in Shakespear just as he is present in the Quran, just in a different form. Logos spermatikos
And if anythign you could also understand how the Sunnah and Hadith show that Muhammed and his family were scam artists. God himself told to Muhammed that people shouldn't visit him at certain hours when he didn't like people visiting him? Muhammed believed in magic and told his followers he has done things through magic, or that those followers also did things through magic that they didnt know they have done? That Muhammed flew to the moon and cut it in half, and that trees cried like babies when he didn't rest under them?
Also not to mention that Islam also doesnt understand the Bible or Jesus, and that the claims Muhammed made about the Bible are all false.
There are no ways to reason with the blinded

[Anonymous No.21345128]

>>21345114
>muhh islam is a christian sect
Holy fucking shit, retards like you are actually beyond saving. I'd try to explain how Allah purposefully based every revelation on another, but you do not have the capacity to understand it since you are more than likely an American and anything you know about Islam is superficial, suiting your entire life and the society you live in. Might as well just kill yourself.
>wahh wahh they say he split the moon in half wah wahh
Fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.21345142]

>>21345087
Reject all schisms. Find a spiritual guide/leader (on a personal level) and try to see the Qur'an. Islam as an institution has been infiltrated and desecrated by Jews a long time ago. Abu Hurayra was a crypto-jew, almost any islamic tradition is based on talmudic ones, rulings of ulema who have lived centuries ago should not be cornerstones of values you set for yourself.

[Anonymous No.21345152]

>>21345087
>Salafi
Kek tell him his "tradition" was a legitimate Anglo-Jewish psy-op.

[Anonymous No.21345175]

>>21345087
cant reason with muslims bro

>exmuslim

[Anonymous No.21345200]

>>21345087
Just tell him his cousin Mehmet who threatened to stab him if he drinks alcohol again, went back to jail.

[Anonymous No.21345274]

>>21345087
Why say anything to them? There's lots of cultists of all sorts out there, not worth talking with them too much, especially arguing against their core teachings that they base their life on.
You don't have to tell them you're reading Plato and Freud. I understand that you have a desire to discuss things with people, but you have to find those who are actually interested in dialogue and learning, and not cultists. Those are closed minds that would need years of dialogue to start opening up, it's not worth your effort.
Where do you live, if you don't mind the question?

[Anonymous No.21345287]

>>21345142
Shut the fuck up about the jews. I'm sick of this shit.

[Anonymous No.21345294]

>>21345274
Correct answer. You can't reason with people who refuse to accept reason.

[Anonymous No.21345301]

>>21345087
Isn't there like 15 times "to each people was sent a prophet and a book" in the Qu'ran? Just say their culture is their revelation from God, it is not meant for you muzzies but may still contain divine truth and be worth studying anyway.

[Anonymous No.21345324]

>>21345087
You should study the Islamic intellectual tradition to realize Salafism itself is semi-heretical and it is based on a near complete rejection of the centuries-old intellectual tradition within Islam. Then maybe join a Sufi tariqa and read some Islamic philosophers.

[Anonymous No.21345355]

>>21345274
>I understand that you have a desire to discuss things with people
I think you're taking the way I framed the question too seriously. I'm not really looking for interpersonal advice. I probably should've mentioned this, but I share a lot more common ground with the Salafi tradition than I do any other, so the matter isn't as simple as ignoring the ravings of a foreign cult to me. I'm wondering if there is any way to bring the love of creativity to a tradition that I'll admit is mostly historical fetishism and largely archaic in the way that it engages with new contexts in the form of developing material circumstances and intellectual progress, that go hand in hand with the development of language on a large scale, if all that made any sense.

[Anonymous No.21345462]

>>21345324
redpill me on this.

[Anonymous No.21345602]

>>21345087
In Xenophon's Socratic Dialogues, there are multiple instances where Socrates passes down lessons that are identical to the teachings of Mohammed and Jesus, peace be upon them. In particular, he compares a man to a war horse, saying that he should keep his body trained and ready for anything. This is comparable to the hadith of the prophet Muhammad when he says the best life for a Muslim is to be like a rider atop his mount, always ready to ride in whatever direction to fight and die in jihad. Jesus says the same thing in the famous phrase "the meek shall inherit the earth" , which is actually using the Greek word for warhorse, "meek" being a Roman invention to emasculate early Christians.

Simply put, Socrates confirms what the prophets have said, and expounds on that message. He also has the near divine characteristics of a Muslim prophet. His subversive role in Greek society is another parallel with the prophets, which is why Neitszche called him the most Jewish philosopher. The Quaran itself say that prophets have been sent down to every ground of people, so I would argue that disparaging or ignoring the teachings of Socrates isn't different than kafr who ignore the teachings of the Qur'an.

Most western "philosophy" is just counter initiatory freemasonry however, so I would be careful with reading Freud and co.

[Anonymous No.21345623]

>>21345602
Also continuing on this for a bit, there is an excellent book by Richard Walzer called "Greek into Arabic", which historically tracks the influence of Greek philosophy onto Islamic thought, and references loads of islamic scholars that lived in the time of the companions and argued for the integration of Greek philosophy into Islamic thought. It's worth a read and will give you Islamically sound arguments to fall back on. Something that not many people are aware of is that the Greeks affirmed the tawhid in their own way, but out of respect didn't directly invoke the name of Allah, and instead personified his attributes in the forms of various sub-divinities. This is described in the Golden Ass, which goes into details about some of the initiary religious ceremonies at the time.

[Anonymous No.21345637]

>>21345128
But anon the Islamic “revelation” is demonstratively a regression from Christianity. We have centuries of theology preceding Muhammad, all of it showing thousands upon thousands of people came to holiness through believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

For heavens’ sake, even someone as cosmopolitan and psychologically “modern” as St. Augustine lived before Muhammad! It’s not some murky period such that you can claim without absurdity that Christ’s revelation was tampered with.

[Anonymous No.21345649]

>>21345602
>Jesus says the same thing in the famous phrase "the meek shall inherit the earth" , which is actually using the Greek word for warhorse, "meek" being a Roman invention to emasculate early Christians.

God this patently false militaristic revisionism is so fucking odious. Truly a swinish, swinish misunderstanding of some of the most beautiful words ever spoken. On the level of those dullards who say that “turning the other cheek” actually means to go apeshit and fight back like a barbaric primitive.

[Anonymous No.21345654]

>>21345462
Not the guy you responded to but Timothy Winter is great for this stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Ien1qo_qI

[Anonymous No.21345658]

>>21345649
Seriously, there is something profoundly tragic about letting the core meaning of the beatitudes whizz over one’s head in favor of a regression to mere pagan power worship.

Although He was all-powerful, Christ raised no armies on this earth. He was silent as a sheep being led to slaughter. He came not to kill, but to die, and to give His life as a ransom for many. What a gulf there is between darkness and light, between the barbarian warlord and the prince of peace!

[Anonymous No.21345666]

>>21345649
It literally uses the word "praus". This is in line with a prophetic tradition of advise, which is that man should take his body and soul just like a knight would tame a wild horse before he could ride it. Part of the reason for this is because Christians have a duty to aid the weak and resist tyranny from the strong... Even if that means going to war over it.

The revisionism was done by the Roman Catholic Church in an attempt to castrate their populations of turn slavery into a virtue.

[Anonymous No.21345680]

>>21345658
Christ is the Messiah and will absolutely lead armies on the earth, topple kings, and bring about the end of the world.

Jesus as a historical figure was a Jewish resistance fighter who doggedly opposed the Romans and Edomite financiers who oppressed the lands.

You arent being Christian by mystifying slavery and obedience to earthly rulers.

[Anonymous No.21345685]

>>21345602
Fellow Muslim here. The Biblical expression "the meek shall inherit the earth" is corroborated by the Qur'an in Surah al-Qasas, 5:

"And We wanted to confer favor upon those who were oppressed in the land and make them leaders and make them inheritors."

[Anonymous No.21345691]

>>21345666
I presume you’re referring to the same Catholic Church which called for a crusade? Literally the largest military expedition motivated by purely spiritual ends in human history? And one which, n.b., was motivated by precisely those lofty motives of defending the weak which you claim Catholicism forcibly suppressed?

[Anonymous No.21345697]

>>21345680
More retarded revisionism. We have no evidence that Christ so much as picked up a sword. Rather, He chastens Peter for doing so. He does drive out the money-changers. But seriously, stop trying to make Him into an expy of your barbarian warlord. He’s much more profound than that.

[Anonymous No.21345709]

>>21345697
Christians don't read the Bible anymore? Read Revelation:

"11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself. 13 He is clad in a robe dipped in[b] blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. 15 From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords."

[Anonymous No.21345722]

>>21345691
Being tricked into murdering fellow Christians by an elite pedophile ring that then goes and murders the most successful crusaders and steals their property isn't a good thing. There's a difference between jihad and war for the sake of war.

[Anonymous No.21345727]

>>21345685
Fair enough brother. But I believe that Christ (pbuh) is refering specifically to horses, or at least to steadfastness, in the relevant section.

[Anonymous No.21345754]

>>21345709
Christ's second coming will be in justice; the war which He will wage on this earth will be such that we will see that all prior wars, no matter how bloody or devastating, only existed to give a crude, carnal symbolism of it.

I was saying that in His first coming, He was gentle and meek as a lamb. I halfway agree with you; to say that "meekness" is synonymous with cowardice is a misreading of the term. It refers to a kind of magnanimity, preferring gentleness over the strength which one could bear. This is, in truth, the imitation of Christ.

>Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

Christ is not weak. Rather, He is stronger than all creatures. But He keeps His strength in abeyance for the sake of mercy.

[Anonymous No.21345807]

>>21345754
I'm not the anon who said 'meek' is a Roman insertion (in fact I said the Qur'an confirms it). But still, be that as it may, Muhammad, blessings of God upon him, was also by all accounts a very gentle and kind man. He was fierce and unforgiving in war against the enemies of God, but he was very gentle otherwise towards the people. To call him a "barbarian warlord" only betrays a lack of knowledge about early Islam and an inablity to think beyond platitudes and cultural myths.

[Anonymous No.21345843]

>>21345602
>Jesus says the same thing in the famous phrase "the meek shall inherit the earth" , which is actually using the Greek word for warhorse, "meek" being a Roman invention to emasculate early Christians.
So, "the war horse shall inherit the earth"? That's a pretty odd figure of speech.
Can you point to literally any source that claims that "praus" (πραεῖς in the text, I take it is not in nominative here) means "warhorse"?

[Anonymous No.21345849]

>>21345807
That's fair. It's not as if Muslims are not capable of extreme cultural refinement... it seems inarguable that during your golden age, it was we westerners who were the barbarians. My mistake, really, was confusing the civilized/barbaric spectrum as equivalent of the good/evil spectrum. Obviously highly civilized people are capable of some of the most depraved acts.

But to be fair, Muhammed *was* "barbaric" in that most essential sense that he was unlettered. Isn't this one of the selling points of the revelation? That no mere illiterate merchant could compose such beautiful texts? As for the term "warlord," pejorative as it may sound, I don't think it's inaccurate.

One could just as properly apply such a term to Joshua or King David in the Old Testament. However you like to cut it, the fact remains that Muhammed waged aggressive wars of conquest for the sake of his nation.

[Anonymous No.21345883]

>>21345849
>Obviously highly civilized people are capable of some of the most depraved acts.
So Muslims are refined but evil? Kek. You seem to imagine us as cartoon villains.
>But to be fair, Muhammed *was* "barbaric" in that most essential sense that he was unlettered.
Pre-Islamic Arabs only used writing sparingly for administrative and business purposes, but they still highly valued eloquence and beautiful speech (poets were highly valued and there was a well-established canon of poetry in the form of an oral tradition). What we have of the sermons of Muhammad, blessings of God upon him, reveals that he was an exceptionally eloquent man. To call him "barbaric," in the sense of lacking knowledge and refinement, is completely inaccurate.
>the fact remains that Muhammed waged aggressive wars of conquest for the sake of his nation.
Just as Jesus is going to do according to your book, right?

[Anonymous No.21345905]

>>21345128
Islam isnt a christian sect, its a pagan jewish syncretic religion that includes Jesus for no reason

[Anonymous No.21345910]

>>21345128
>Makes thread complaining about how Islam is closed minded
>Gets mad when someone talks shit about Islam
Always the same, maybe one day mudslims will grow up

[Anonymous No.21346755]

Bump

[Anonymous No.21346830]

bump because I find OP's question interesting

[Anonymous No.21346844]

>>21345287
Jew detected.