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21326000 No.21326000 [Reply] [Original]

Calvin
>Predestination exists.
>Excommunicated. Heretic. Permanently severed from the Catholic Church
Augustine
>Predestination exists.
>Saint. Father of the Church. More beloved than any Pope ever.
What gives

>> No.21326053

>>21326000
Augustine at least attempted to defend free will.

>> No.21326141

>>21326000
checked trips

You can at least kind of squint and interpret Augustine as still promoting a God who at least theoretically allows free will and is maybe kind of benevolent whereas Calvin's deity is in no uncertain terms stated to be an insane sadistic almighty demon who actively caused the Fall of Man and every single sin that was ever committed just so that he could revel in the pleasure of torturing the sinners that he created specifically to hate, and you the reader are also more than likely screwed because God in Calvinism also likes to give counterfeit grace to people and trick them into thinking that they're elect only to pull back the curtain at the last second and then stick them with a punishment in Hell twice as bad (there's a reason that this philosophy literally fucked up the minds of Europeans for centuries and ultimately gave birth to almost everything horrible about modern society)

At the end of the day, crotchety old-age post-Pelagius Augustine and Calvin do both have very similar doctrines of predestination, but the primary difference is that Augustine's can be prettied up to come across as less obviously horrifying whereas Calvin's was so nightmarish that the only way to get people to fall in line with it was for Geneva's government to threaten them with torture and/or death for disagreeing, lest they actually read whole thing and realize that the entire corpus of writings were either the work of a delirious psychopath or actual devils

>> No.21326161

>>21326141
>t. reprobate

>> No.21326173

>>21326141
PELAGIUS > AUGUSTINE

Augustine is a Mithraist.

The Irish Insular Church is the One True Church of the Fathers.

>> No.21326187
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21326187

>>21326141
Without Calvin, there would be no Moby Dick. I'm glad Calvin existed, as he spooked one of the greatest American writers into creating a book that will last forever.

>> No.21326197

>>21326161
Also yes, Calvinism more or less popularized the concept of trading in rational argument for calling someone a chud, incel, or white male (i.e. "The fact that you disagree with me proves you are not elect, therefore you have automatically lost the debate")

Some Orthodox make a stink about how Augustine screwed up western theology for centuries to come - and they very well may be right - but even that is nothing compared to how negative of an effect John Calvin has had on the entirety of European thought

>> No.21326206
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21326206

>>21326187
That's fair, I agree, he also influenced Lovecraft which is pretty based, a lot of cool gothic cosmic horror came out of Calvinism

>> No.21326224

>Due to God's own omniscience, he can see all of the choices we will ever make
>These choices are still made by man due to God's willing that we make them (ie omniscience doesn't imply omni-activity).
I don't see how these are contradictory.

>> No.21326259

>>21326000
Augustine at least attempted to defend free will.

>> No.21326265

>>21326000
Calvin believed in double predestination, meaning that those who aren't the elect are predestined to Hell
>>21326161
I'm sure you're a permavirgin, but on the offchance someone like you somehow tricked a woman into being your spouse, you would probably beat her.

>> No.21326412

>>21326000
because calvin was in heresy on other issues
predestination is an acceptable catholic doctrine, despite what popular catholic apologists might tell you. see: dominican theology, domingo banez, de auxiliis debate between jesuits and dominicans over this very issue

>> No.21326488

I thought the problem was double predestination vs single predestination

>> No.21326509

>>21326206
Bret Easton Ellis, David Foster Wallace and Herbert Shelby too were children of Calvinism.

>> No.21326510

>>21326488
There is effectively no difference between "single" and "double" predestination except from a linguistic standpoint; the effect is still identical insofar as if you aren't one of the elect you're fucked and there's nothing you can do about it

>> No.21326522

>>21326000
The passage of time likely. The church wasn't as solidified when Augustine was writing his tracts in Carthage as opposed to when Calvin penned his stuff in Switzerland and France

>> No.21326524

>>21326509
Terrible job of defending the faith with those selections

>> No.21326559

>>21326524
The point is the opposite; Calvinism is so horrible that it inspired the kind of existential despair that leads to good writing

>> No.21326663

>>21326000
Augustine at least attempted to defend free will.

>> No.21326811

>>21326000

The Catholic cries out in pain as he strikes you.

>> No.21326825

>>21326224
They're not, OP is a sperg.