jap/lit/

[Anonymous No.21254987]

Was the twentieth century the best century for japanese literature?

[Anonymous No.21254991]

>>21254987
Yeah, but don't pretend like it stands up to America or the UK.

[Anonymous No.21254995]

Pic related was my first mishima book and first real literature in general
Confessions is very good and recommend it to anyone interested in Mishima or Japanese literature in general

[Anonymous No.21255001]

>>21254987
>not reading in the original language
Ngmi.

[Anonymous No.21255032]

>>21254987
Yes but not because of Mishima, 20th century Japanese lit was pretty much over by the time he showed up.

[Anonymous No.21255067]

>>21254995
This was the actual gayest thing I ever read. Him describing himself ejaculating to his adventure book cover was embarrassing. People that like Mishima are simply repressed fags

[Anonymous No.21255079]

>>21255067
Confessions of a mask is heavily autobiographical
Infact Mishima sent a copy of confessions to his old Phycologist after it was published

[Anonymous No.21255082]

>>21255032
Mishima is just an example, actually I prefer Shusaku Endo and Edogawa Ranpo over Mishima.

[Anonymous No.21255099]

>>21255079
Oh I could tell, anon. Besides, people only really write about themselves anyway. It is funny that his grandmother made hin gay though. He glosses over it very quick. I think he knew but she abused him too hard for him to cope.

[Anonymous No.21255117]

>>21255099
True mishimas fiction is heavily part of himself
In every novel it carries his own beliefs and ideologies
Even in something as like sound of waves it still holds mishimas beliefs of masculinity and virtue of hardwork

[Anonymous No.21255150]

>>21255082
Ultimately I would say the peak of their literature (so far) was few decades on either side of the turn of the 19th/20th century. The western influence becomes more direct after that and it just does not work for me.

[Anonymous No.21255190]

>>21254987
japan is unironically one of the weakest countries when it comes to literature and none of their greats stand up to the worst shit in the western canon, even chinks btfo them

[Anonymous No.21255534]

>>21255190
>japan is unironically one of the weakest countries when it comes to literature and none of their greats stand up to the worst shit in the western canon
not true

[Anonymous No.21255559]

>>21254987
Asked you on the other thread but It got archived. How are the spanish editions anón? Should i read him on anglo or taco?

[Anonymous No.21255597]

>>21254987
Nice. Here's my collection.

[Anonymous No.21255619]

>>21255559
I don't know enough japanese to be able to judge the translations of his work. I do have a japanese copy of "潮騒" (El Rumor del Oleaje), and with my wife's help and compared the first couple of sentences with the Spanish edition, and I didn't find anything odd.

[Anonymous No.21255636]

>>21254987
Yes but not because of Mishima, 20th century Japanese lit was pretty much over by the time he showed up.

[Anonymous No.21255668]

>>21255032
>>21255636
Nigger, it had only just started.

[Anonymous No.21255673]

>>21255597
Te recomiendo esta biografía, fue escrita por un psicólogo español, es un estudio de su vida, obra y muerte. Fue publicada unos años después del suicidio de Mishima.
Escribo así porque los anglos se ponen locas si ven palabras en un idioma extranjero

[Anonymous No.21255681]

>>21255673
Gracias por la información :)

[Anonymous No.21255693]

>mfw reading the temple of the golden pavilion

[Anonymous No.21255725]

>>21254987
That'd be the Heian period

[Anonymous No.21255790]

>>21254987
>translated to spanish
Basically just low quality toilet paper at that point

[Anonymous No.21255803]

>>21255790
Enlighten us with your superb knowledge of the japanese language.

[Anonymous No.21255808]

>>21255803
Don't feed the hispanophobe troll. He's just a retard.

[Anonymous No.21255868]

>>21255803
I'm fluent in Japanese and Spanish, at least to the point of being able to easily read books in either language.
Whatever you're reading is more of a fan fiction than actual literature.

[Anonymous No.21255877]

>>21255808
>hispanophobe
Here's another buzzword for you: midwit

[Anonymous No.21255879]

>>21255082
The last great japanese writer was Dazai

[Anonymous No.21255886]

>>21255877
>buzzword
It's not even used, let alone a trendy word.

[Anonymous No.21255891]

>>21255886
It is if you're a basedlet from south of the civilized world

[Anonymous No.21255893]

>>21255879
Mishima is better than Dazai.

[Anonymous No.21255899]

>>21255891
It's not used at all. Google it and even google corrects it to hispanophone.

[Anonymous No.21255908]

>>21255899
>Hispanophobia or anti-Spanish sentiment is a fear, distrust, hatred of; aversion to, or discrimination against the Spanish language, Hispanic, Latino and/or Spanish people, and/or Hispanic culture.
Easily confirmed as false.
This is why noone likes you people

[Anonymous No.21255910]

>>21255868
>Whatever you're reading is more of a fan fiction than actual literature.
Prove it.

[Anonymous No.21255918]

>>21255908
The fact that it exists doesn't mean it's a buzzword nor a trendy word, retard.

[Anonymous No.21255923]

>>21255879
>>21255893
OP here, I've never read Dazai's work.

[Anonymous No.21255957]

>>21255001
>not reading in the original language
>君は習慣づけるはありません

[Anonymous No.21255965]

>>21255001
Any anon who knows some chink language is a full blown weeb. Disgusting people

[Anonymous No.21255970]

I only have Runaway Horses and The Sailor who fell from grace with the sea. I want to get Sun and Steel, but it's hard to find a cheap price.
>>21255965
ばか!いいえ、あほ!

[Anonymous No.21256033]

>>21255910
私はゲイです

[Anonymous No.21256336]

>>21255893
The Japanese people don't agree with this

[Anonymous No.21256338]

>>21255619
>>21255673
Cheers anons, I'll check both of them.

[Anonymous No.21256356]

>>21254987
The 13th century, for this alone

[Anonymous No.21256380]

松尾芭蕉を読め

[Anonymous No.21256393]

>>21255965
Japanese is a very beautiful language. Unfortunately, I don't think it's worth the investment unless you are a huge weeb, but that doesn't take away from the intrinsic value of the language.

[Anonymous No.21256500]

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that Japanese (a language isolate) simply doesn't translate all that well into most other languages? I'm sure they wouldn't be so hesitant to agree that Japanese translations of western classics aren't so great, regardless of their inability to read them for themselves to see whether or not that's true.

[Anonymous No.21256508]

>>21256500
>Why is it so difficult for people to understand that Japanese (a language isolate) simply doesn't translate all that well into most other languages?
Because people don't care. If literature has anything of worth to say, it will survive translation.

[Anonymous No.21256521]

>>21256500
Japanese translations of western books are blatantly bad. My wife told me that Sam from The Lord of the Rings talks like a redneck, The Chronicles of Narnia was literally rewritten, the translator of a book about Tolkien's work translated "The Grey Havens" as "tengoku" (heaven).

[Anonymous No.21256532]

>>21256521
It's a given that Japanese translations of western books would be bad.

[Anonymous No.21256540]

>>21256521
>My wife told me that Sam from The Lord of the Rings talks like a redneck
I mean, he really is a redneck. His dad Ham or whatever is into agriculture and grows potatoes.

[Anonymous No.21256549]

>>21256532
no it's not
but it definitely requires more skill to translate well into and from jap than, say, into and from french.
this is really apparent in all the jap media I've consumed, from real books to anime, is that they nearly always are extremely obviously japanese in how a large portion of dialogue is phrased.
but it can't be impossible.

[Anonymous No.21256571]

>>21256508
Entirely untrue.
>祗園精舎の鐘の声、
>諸行無常の響きあり。
>娑羅双樹の花の色、
>盛者必衰の理をあらはす。
>おごれる人も久しからず、
>唯春の夜の夢のごとし。
>たけき者も遂にはほろびぬ、
>偏に風の前の塵に同じ。

>The Jetavana Temple bells
>ring the passing of all things.
>Twinned sal trees, white in full flower,
>declare the great man's certain fall.
>The arrogant do not long endure:
>They are like a dream one night in spring.
>The bold and brave perish in the end:
>They are as dust before the wind.
>>21256549
>it can't be impossible.
See the above, though it's pointless in the end if you can't read Japanese.

[Anonymous No.21256582]

>>21256571
>Entirely untrue.
It's true. That's why classics are universally translated.

[Anonymous No.21256583]

>>21256582
All that shows us is that classics are universally translated, not that they are translated well.

[Anonymous No.21256590]

>>21256583
And if they keep being translated and read that means they have something of worth to say to foreign readers. Else, people wouldn't care.

[Anonymous No.21256645]

>>21256393
i know man , while i would love the idea of knowing japanese and just reading literature on it every day i just dont think its a responsible use of my finite time. i wonder how the bronte sisters or henry james would read in japanese.

[Anonymous No.21256657]

>>21256393
The only problem with japanese is kanji and that will be solved by technology in very short time. Anyone not accumulating casual exposure to kana, vocab, and spoken japanese is going to miss out.

[Anonymous No.21256661]

>>21256645
Henry James sucks in every language, especially in English.

[Anonymous No.21256662]

>>21256571
that looks and reads beautifuly anon . do you know japanese and if so how long did it take you ? i use daily anki and immersion but for french and it has been so fruitful but im afraid that it will take a lifetime with japanese and i dont know if its worth it when i can just learn on top of french, german and italian

[Anonymous No.21256665]

>>21254987
The Edo era didn't produce a lot, in fact almost nothing, only thing I can remember is "Stories of Rain and Moonlight" from the 18th century. And 21st century is Globohomo, so yes, it started with the Meiji era and ended with Showa in 1989.

[Anonymous No.21256669]

>>21256657
>The only problem with japanese is kanji and that will be solved by technology in very short time
How is it a problem? How will it be solved?

[Anonymous No.21256671]

>>21256661
you should read him in french , i wholeheartedly say that he reads better than in english . Same goes for Poe but he was translated by Baudelaire himself

[Anonymous No.21256719]

>>21256669
It inserts a massive extra memorization task into reading by obscuring written phonetics behind an arbitrary symbol that you need to guess the reading of. There is no kanji in spoken japanese. Things like AR tech to help travelers to other countries read signs or paperwork on the fly are rapidly improving, assisted kanji reading in casual environments is a trivial aspect of that.

[Anonymous No.21256750]

>>21256590
They're translated because there are enough people who don't know the languages they were originally written, who also don't care to learn those languages. They're translated because of their value to the culture they were born from, not because of their value relative to the foreign reader. The translations are read as a substitute to the original only because the readers do not understand the original. I'm not seeing your point.
>>21256662
>that looks and reads beautifuly anon
If you're referring to the English translation, then I agree. It's quite good on its own, but it fails to serve as a good translation. This is of no fault of the translator, mind you, it's because of the numerous differences between the two languages which at the outset cripple any attempts at delivering a faithful translation.
>how long did it take you ?
Hard to say. That's Heian Japanese, which you would need to learn separately from modern Japanese, and likely after you'd already built a very strong foundation in it. That's what I did, at least. I can say that I was able to read (with a dictionary at hand) most novels I was interested in after two years of constant study, though those novels were written largely after the Taisho period.
>im afraid that it will take a lifetime with japanese
It won't, as long as you're diligent in your studies.
>i dont know if its worth it when i can just learn on top of french, german and italian
That's something you'll just have to decide for yourself. I'm currently learning German myself, but the problem is motivation. Are you more motivated to pursue Japanese, or French, German, and Italian? I'd already started with a very strong core motivator when I took my leap into studying Japanese, but with German my only motivation is that I like how it sounds.

[Anonymous No.21256762]

>>21256719
Japanese has a lot of unique linguistic intricacies from Kanji that make poetry and literature more fun. Kanji isn't a problem just because you wh*toids can't handle it.

[Anonymous No.21256799]

>>21256750
>I'm not seeing your point.
The point is that it doesn't matter. If literature has something of worth to say at all, it will get translations and will be read by foreigners who will find something good in it. If not, it will fade away into obscurity. It's irrelevant whether readers know the original language.

[Anonymous No.21257106]

>>21256750
thank you for the thoughtful reply anon . As you said i guess its just a choice i'll have to make . Hope your studies go well

[Anonymous No.21257178]

>>21256762
That's cool but I'm still buying AR glasses to stick furigana to every kanji I ever lay eyes on.

[Anonymous No.21257198]

>>21257178
>AR glasses explode when they come across 擦る

[Anonymous No.21257221]

>adverb used as a following sentence for extra adverbial emphasis
Why are writers like this?

[Anonymous No.21257225]

>>21255597
How many times you gonna post this?

[Anonymous No.21257248]

>>21257225
Huh? It's the first time I've posted this. You underestimate the number of Hispanics on /lit/.

[Anonymous No.21257277]

>>21257198
Based on what chatbots are already capable of I don't think a context-sensitive readings list is going to be outside their capabilities.

[Anonymous No.21257311]

>>21256665
Chikamatsu is good
rakugo is also very good but it's an oral tradition
there's also a whole lot of poetry and novels just poorly known overseas

[Anonymous No.21257704]

>>21255668
Well, tell me about Tsutsui, what should I read?

Everything I have read so far from later writers either reads like manga without the pictures or takes in too much western influence for my taste. Those turn of the 19th/20th century writers were developing the novel in a distinct fashion which stood apart from the western tradition and they are quite interesting, but then it just became the western novel set in Japan with the odd nod to those early writers. I find it to clash with much of their writing in the worst way.

[Anonymous No.21258089]

>>21254991
What? UK literature in the 20th century sucks balls, there’s like one or two great authors at most.

[Anonymous No.21258106]

>>21258089
He probably thinks The Magus or some other cuckhold fantasies are the peak of literature.

[Anonymous No.21259276]

I'd say my Japanese reading level is at about middle school level. Should I try reading something by Ryuunosuke Akutagawa, or should I try reading I Am A Cat?

[Anonymous No.21259365]

>>21254987

[Anonymous No.21259760]

>>21259365
I read this anthology and I didn't enjoy it. Maybe is fiction is better than his genre fiction.

[Anonymous No.21259784]

>>21259760
don't know this edition The Woman in the Dunes is a good entry

[Anonymous No.21259889]

Can someone recommend me good Kenzaburo books that are not A Personal Matter?

[Anonymous No.21260023]

>>21256645
>responsible use of one's own time
>he posted, on 4chan

[Anonymous No.21260038]

>>21255001
can you please teach me japanese while we have passive (PAASSIVE with extreme emphasis) sexual intercourse mommy

[Anonymous No.21260039]

>>21254987
Only non-fiction is worth reading in translation

[Anonymous No.21260041]

>>21255150
would you say murakami has western influence? ( i think so....) if so who in particular?

[Anonymous No.21260044]

>>21255190
Kek, is art a competition?

[Anonymous No.21260053]

>>21254987
Most non-western societies only entered history in the 20th-century. Euros perfected any concept modern society will have already in the 19th-century.

[Anonymous No.21260055]

>>21255190
>none of their greats stand up to the worst shit in the western canon
because they are not fucking western you dumb nigger..............they are a different culture with extremely different embodiment of emotion and culture

[Anonymous No.21260061]

>>21256583
the ideas can be translated but the poetics of the language will be hit or miss

[Anonymous No.21260104]

>>21256393
Nip call-centre jobs pay x3 what english-only call centre jobs pay. Chink would be more lucrative for jobs in the long-term though.

[Anonymous No.21260121]

>>21260041
He is western through and through from what I have read. I assume he was influenced by magical realism and probably Kafka (isn't Kafka mention in one of his titles?) but I have not read much of his work, not a fan at all.

[Anonymous No.21260139]

>>21260041
Despite him namedropping western things like every other page, his books aren't western enough compared to early 20th-century japan great literature.

[Anonymous No.21260372]

>>21255965
I'm training every day with Anki + reading manga in Japanese to improve even further. I'm gonna make it :D

[Anonymous No.21260411]

>>21260041
look up what he translated into Japanese
a lot of mid 20th century American lit, Fitzgerald, Salinger, Raymond Carver, Truman Capote, Raymond Chandler etc

[Anonymous No.21260426]

>>21254987
Does anyone happen to know where I can get epub or mobi versions of the classics? Anything from 平家物語 to modern stuff--Mishima, etc. Libgen sucks if you're trying to find untranslated, original versions.

[Anonymous No.21260519]

>>21260426
libgen has a bunch of annotated classical japanese classics with side by side modern translation, look up 新潮社
itazuraneko has books too I think

[Anonymous No.21260543]

>>21260519
Thanks. I tried itazuraneko a while ago but it was clearly lacking in every aspect of the literary Japanese canon.

[Anonymous No.21260737]

>>21257311
>Chikamatsu Shigenori
Thanks for dropping that name, kind of went under the radar. Stories from a Tearoom Window is very comfy.

[Anonymous No.21261134]

>>21260737
hmm I actually meant Chikamatsu Monzaemon
this also seems really good though

[Anonymous No.21261343]

>>21260039
Grow up.

[Anonymous No.21261353]

>>21261343
No, he's right.

[Anonymous No.21262759]

>>21261343
>reading the translator's summary of the story
Might as well read fanfiction

[Anonymous No.21263911]

>>21254987
By this picture it doesn't lool like it

[Anonymous No.21264128]

>>21261353
>>21262759
No, he's wrong. Monolinguists are usually these types of immature contrarians. They will be ignored. Most of it is perfectly translatable, there only few authors with distinguished prose among the so-called classics, where you can say something as pretentious as 'untranslatable'. But even those have been translated by a gifted translators, who are usually writers themselves, often better, on the level of the sentence, than their subjects. Having a perfect cultural and literary context is much more important than a translation. But posers tend to latch on that.

[Anonymous No.21264864]

>>21260737
ok so I read this and 80% of the anecdotes are just
>There is a famous tea bowl called Ching Chong, which was bought by Lord Ping Pong from Fukensuke, a merchant of Osaka, for 100 pieces of gold. It is said to have been used Sen no Rikyu, who called it Ching Chong because of the sound it made when he accidentally dropped it while serving tea for Hideyoshi. Hideyoshi then had him decapitated. Truly this demonstrates the spirit of the tea ceremony! Other famous tea bowls are Long Wang, Wing Ping and Ning Nong.
>(monochrome illustration of tea bowls)
it was indeed comfy

[Anonymous No.21265051]

>>21255597
>>21254987
>Not buying the hardcover editions.

[Anonymous No.21265071]

>>21265051
I've never seen them irl.

[Anonymous No.21265177]

>>21255067

[Anonymous No.21265200]

>>21260121
the magical realism is heavy in all his books, Kafka on the Shore literally has a tranny main/side character

[Anonymous No.21266601]

>>21258089
Hahahahaha HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Anonymous No.21266909]

>>21255673
Este post fue escrito por un chupapollas que le gusta tener 200 penes negros en su ano.

[Anonymous No.21266961]

>>21266909
Cerra el culo paellanigger

[Anonymous No.21267313]

>>21265051
Why would they buy the hardcover editions if they want to read the book?

[Anonymous No.21267319]

>>21267313
Don't you read hardcovers?

[Anonymous No.21267343]

I'm reading Sources of Japanese Tradition volume 1 right now
It's a pure slog

[Anonymous No.21267352]

>>21254987
>>21254995
>>21255032
>>21255067
>>21255079
>>21255082
>>21255117
The most central and foundational part of Mishima's life, from which everything else flowed, was that he was a giant attention-whoring faggot queen.

This is not to be confused with his homosexuality; his homosexuality is incidental rather than constitutive, but nonetheless derived from the fact that he was a giant attention-whoring faggot queen, namely via the fact that women are not capable of the boundless adoration and worship that men are, necessitating that Mishima become a homosexual to satisfy his giant attention-whoring faggot queen impulses by being adored and worshipped by those most capable of it, i.e. men.

The same fundamental explanation goes for his books, with all their boring bourgeois pseudo-transgression, expertly tip-toeing the exact line between a harmless eccentricity vis-a-vis social norms, attracting large crowds on account of its peculiarity and shocking nature to pearl-clutching normies, but never once crossing the line into real transgression, something that would alienate the normie crowds in his book. Oh wow, the character killed a cat and seems indifferent, very transgressive, such symbol.

However, this not being enough to satisfy his giant attention-whoring faggot queen impulses, he established the perfect situation for himself with his poorly attempted coup: either he would succeed and be the primus motor of a return to imperial Japan, or he would fail and spectacularly kill himself. Both options would secure him a place in the history books, satisfying his giant attention-whoring faggot queen impulses. It could not fail, or so Mishima thought.

In a pure show of ironic force crafted by the hand of God himself, his feeble 5'1 body was not capable of producing enough volume in his voice, in the speech to instigate the coup, for the soldiers below the balcony to hear him - it cannot be stressed enough what a fundamental and metaphysical failure this was for the faggot queen who craved nothing but attention. One can only speculate, but it is possible that this alone was enough for his seppuku to be motivated by more than attention-whoring, that he felt, for once, actual shame. Even further getting blown the fuck out by God, his backup plan, that would honorably remove him from this world in a faggy-aesthetic way, failed - his secondary, who was to decapitate him after he had disemboweled himself, was too weak to do so, and tried three times to separate head from body, failing each time.

In short: he did it to satisfy his narcissist, faggot queen urges; what he attained instead was becoming a joke so sophisticated and perfect that it must have come about by divine intervention.

[Anonymous No.21268218]

>>21267352
Mishima eternally btfo