/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.2125313]

I assume this would be the best place to ask.
The Bible is a book after all.

Now I just found out that the Devil, Lucifer, and Satan are in fact different entities that just get mixed together a lot.
Would anyone care to explain the differences between them?

[Anonymous No.2125328]

>Now I just found out this unsubstantiated claim. Would anyone care to explain how this claim came about?

We can't help you unless you help us, op.

[Anonymous No.2125342]

>>2125328
You're right. I should have said that someone put forth the notion that these are three separate entities. This is my first time hearing such an idea and would like a discussion on why someone would think this way.
I am quite ignorant on the subject but I'll start.
From what I've always thought, the Devil was just some umbrella term for all the evil in the world. Lucifer was God's favorite angel who decided to go against god and was thrown into Hell. At this point, they called him Satan now as he was no longer that Morning Star of Heaven but instead a ruler of hell.

[VelvetCrow !0kY4lKysPM No.2125351]

>Lucifer
Traditionally, Lucifer (English pronunciation: /ˈluːsɪfər, ljuːsɪfər/) is a name that in English generally refers to the devil before being cast from heaven, although this is not the original meaning of the term. In Latin, from which the English word is derived, Lucifer means "light-bearer" (from the words lucem ferre). It was the name given to the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, which heralds daylight. For this meaning, English generally uses the names "Morning Star" or "Day Star", and rarely "Lucifer".

>Devil
The Devil (Greek: διάβολος or diábolos = 'slanderer' or 'accuser'[1]) is believed in many religions and cultures to be a powerful, supernatural entity that is the personification of evil and the enemy of God and humankind. The Devil is commonly associated with heretics, infidels, and other unbelievers. The Abrahamitic religions have variously regarded the Devil as a rebellious fallen angel or demon that tempts humans to sin or commit evil deeds. Judaism sees the Devil as an adversary and an accuser whose role is assigned rather than assumed. Others regard the Devil as an allegory that represents a crisis of faith, individualism, free will, wisdom and enlightenment.
In mainstream Christianity, God and the Devil are usually portrayed as fighting over the souls of humans, with the Devil seeking to lure people away from God and into Hell. The Devil commands a force of evil angels, commonly known as demons.[2] The Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) describes the Adversary (Ha-satan) as an angel who instigates tests upon humankind.[3][4] Many other religions have a trickster or tempter figure that is similar to the Devil. Modern conceptions of the Devil include the concept that it symbolizes humans' own lower nature or sinfulness.

[VelvetCrow !0kY4lKysPM No.2125355]

>>2125351

>Satan
Satan (Hebrew: הַשָׂטָן ha-Satan), "the opposer",[1] is the title of various entities, both human and divine, who challenge the faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible.[2] In Christianity and Islam the title became a personal name, and "Satan" changed from an accuser appointed by God to test men's faith to the chief of the rebellious fallen angels ("the devil" in Christianity, "Shaitan" in Arabic, the term used by Arab Christians and Muslims).[3]

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Demons_in_Christianity

[Anonymous No.2125356]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_princes_of_Hell
Lucy and Satan are different princes

[Anonymous No.2125363]

>>2125313
hey asshole, is /a/ thread not enough for you?

[Anonymous No.2125718]

where is OPs pic from?

[Anonymous No.2125868]

>>2125718
http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Megami_Tensei_Wiki

[Anonymous No.2126442]

i want to learn about angels/demons/god etc, but don't want to go through character profiles in wiki articles.

nor do i want to read the bible.

wut do

[Anonymous No.2126443]

>>2126442
realize you must work for knowledge

[Anonymous No.2126561]

>>2126442
Find the following either over the Internet or order from a bookstore:

Clavicula Salomonis ("The Lesser Key of Solomon")

De Coelesti Hierarchia ("The Celestial Hierarchy")

Malleus Maleficarum ("Hammer of the Witches")

[Anonymous No.2126604]

>>2125313
Many names are given in regards to titles or descriptors usually of a given feat. If you look up the etymology of each name you'll see they are literally tranlated into titles.
Satan, Lucifer, The Biblical Leviathan (as a metaphor), Mammon, and Devil are all one entity asshat.

[Anonymous No.2126611]

> that feel when you realize you can't learn anything through absorbing facts from the fucking morons that surround you throughout life...

[Anonymous No.2126613]

Did someone say troll thread?

[Anonymous No.2126618]

The Bible was written by many writers and compiled by many editors.

The Satan figure in Genesis is vastly different from that of Job.

[Anonymous No.2126622]

>>2126618
No shit Sherlock, it's a compilation of Jewish texts then translated into Latin, then translated into English for your whim, so the fucking Catholic Church doesn't get do dictate what color of pants you wear every fucking day of the week.

[Anonymous No.2126637]

>>2126622
> no shit sherlock
> The Bible is a compilation of Jewish texts then translated into Latin then translated...

No shit sherlock, indeed.

I was just (I guess I didn't finish what I meant to say) making the claim that there are huge differences in the Bible it's better to compare certain books to each other rather than some broad sketches of characters that have been warped by centuries of interpretation.

FOR EXAMPLE, SATAN IN GENESIS IS VASTLY DIFFERENT FROM THE ALMOST NEUTRAL JUDGE LIKE FIGURE OF SATAN IN JOB

So thanks for responding to my post.

[Anonymous No.2126645]

I sure as shit don't remember reading about
"Snappy" the Angel Dolphin
In the bible.

[Anonymous No.2126679]

>pic obviously created by a retard/troll
>>2126637
>ALMOST NEUTRAL JUDGE LIKE FIGURE OF SATAN IN JOB

Paraphrased Summation of Job
>Satan: Hey God, that Job guy seems a bit too perfect. I bet if you take away all the his nice shit, he'll curse you and turn his back on you.
>God: LOL, I'm omniscient, and you don't think I know better? What a retard. I guess I'll just do it to prove a point for future generations to mull over, concerning the complexity that is me.
>Job: God, why the fuck is my nice shit gone? My wife and kids just fucking died and all my friends think I did something wrong against you to cause this.
>God?
>At this point Satan is laughing his ass off because he thinks he just forced God to destroy a perfectly decent human being.
>Job: I wanna fucking kill myself, life is pointless at this point. Take me God! I want to leave this shit hole please!
>God shows up explains in parables and poetic devices that he's basically king, so STFU and stop bitching.
>Mythical Leviathan shows up as metaphor for devil.
Showing how God in end times, will rip him a new asshole.
>God gives Job back everything he lost ten-fold for having to go through everything he did.

Devil is the same entity in Genesis. If he seems different in Job, it's just he's written from a different perspective. He's chaotic, destructive, and rebellious just like Genesis. He still trying to get revenge on God's favorite 'child'. Sibling rivalry if you will.

OP if you're looking for some biblical education without reading the Bible, try reading Paradise Lost and Regained by Milton. Don't know if you're uneducated ass will understand it though.

[Anonymous No.2126685]

>>2126679
>Implying Job's wife dies...

[Anonymous No.2126698]

>>2126679
This has nothing to do with "Snappy"

[Anonymous No.2126699]

>>2126685
I forgot she didn't die, but he sure didn't stick with her afterword. It's been a while since I've read Job, it's 1 AM and I'm tired. Give me a break.
Regardless of my slight oversight, stick with the fucking argument. This needless heckling of unrelated details leads no where to furthering your stand point on the issue.

[Anonymous No.2126708]

>>2126698
Snappy the Dolphin was a later addition to texts around the 12th century. The Catholic Church thought it would be appeal to younger audiences if Jesus had a flying dolphin with him to make patronizing comments concerning his every action.

[Anonymous No.2126918]

>>2126708
>>2126645

[Anonymous No.2126930]

Satan (I think translated "The Enemy") appears in the book of Job. It seems to me that he is working for God as a sort of angel of destruction in that story. As far as I know, the idea of the Devil or Hell (in the Christian sense) doesn't exist in the old Testament, so Satan is definitely separate at that point. I think everyone that died in the old Testament went to Sheol, which was the underworld. Some people were saved from there, but I don't it was a punishment in the sense of Hell.

I believe that the idea of the Devil comes from Zoroastrianism and it's hard to find a direct link between Satan and the Devil solely from the Bible.

[Anonymous No.2126934]

>>2125313
>archangel in low tier....
are you serious?

[Anonymous No.2126943]

>>2126934
Archangels think that they are important but are actually at the bottom of the food chain and everybody else laughs at them behind their backs.
Like you, actually.

[Anonymous No.2126944]

gabriel uriel raphael and michael are arch-angels, arent they? why arent they in low-tier?

[Anonymous No.2126945]

>>2126934
I mean in all the stories you heard as a kid, Archangels are the most power beings out there sans Lucifer and God. Wtf they doing in low tier and if i remembered correctly Uriel and his "four brother tier" are all archangels.....

Also wtf are those other beings? Some look like Hindu gods, heard about Samael in Hellboy.. never did research on him.. The pic you have of him looks like some yu-gi-oh monster the sky dragon or something.

[Franz !!sgbDjCx17BI No.2126964]

>>2126945
Protip: these mythos come from the ancient near east. The real old beings would have been monsteresque.

[Anonymous No.2126972]

>>2126964

[Anonymous No.2126975]

>>2126945
>Archangels are the most power beings out there

Here's a hint: The old stories you read as a kid are not accurate translations of the ancient scriptures.

>if i remembered correctly Uriel and his "four brother tier" are all archangels.....

No, they are seraphim actually.

[Anonymous No.2126976]

>>2126934

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy

Archangels are the second lowest.

Also
>2011
>still thinking angels are pretty people with wings and shiny rings on their heads

[Anonymous No.2126988]

>>2126976
sorry dude ive never seen one, so i had to stick to the pictures

[Anonymous No.2126990]

>>2126988
Seems like you've been looking at the wrong pictures.

[Anonymous No.2127024]

>>2126976
I don't see "Snappy" in that hierarchy.

[Anonymous No.2127026]

>>2126976
>>2126944
>It is possible to make a distinction between archangel (with a lower-case a) and Archangel (with an uppercase A). The former can denote the second-lowest choir (arch-angels in the sense of being just above the lowest Choir of angels that is called only "angels") but the latter may denote the highest of all the angels (i.e., Arch-angels in the sense of being above all angels, of any Choir. The seven highest Seraphim, Michael being the highest of all, once Satan fell).

Might be nice to actually read the article you link ...

[Anonymous No.2127043]

>>2125342
>This is my first time hearing such an idea and would like a discussion on why someone would think this way
I think you should stop getting your ideas from Japanese role playing games. As much as I also like Megaten it's not exactly the greatest series to study Christianity and various religions/demonology/mythology from.

[Anonymous No.2127074]

according to the catholic encyclopedia, lucifer can be considered another name for big JC as well

[Anonymous No.2127077]

>>2126975
There's a difference between the term archangel as a choir, and Archangel as a title. The seven Archangels (including Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel) were the highest Seraphim. The actual choir of archangels were basically upjumped angels charged with looking over shit down here.

[Anonymous No.2127337]

This verse shows in one stroke that the Devil and Satan are one entity.
>>2126930
> Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
TL;DR? - Satan = Devil
And this section of Isaiah is the only time Lucifer is ever mention in the King James Bible. If you read the entire context, you'll see it's quite obviously Satan, and therefore same entity.
>>2125351
>>2125313
>Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground,which didst weaken the nations!
>Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart,I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God :I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
>Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
>Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
TL;DR? - Lucifer = Satan/Devil
>>2125355
>>2212535
Learn to read source material before going off and acting like a moron, M'kay? Only mentally deficient people trust information found on the internets.
TL;DR? - Wiki is bullshit.

[Anonymous No.2127376]

>>2127337

Those passages about Lucifer have nothing to do with being the devil/Satan or not. He's just described as being an asshole who tried to be bigger than God there.

[Anonymous No.2127415]

>>2127376
Seeing as it's the only place it's mention, then who pray do you think is this elusive Lucifer character? It follows the motif of Satan, it's just a different name for him before he turned bad.

[Anonymous No.2127421]

Are you suggesting that the Devil/Satan was created evil by God?

[Anonymous No.2127435]

>>2127415
>then who pray do you think is this elusive Lucifer character?

A Babylonian king who was defeated around the time.

[Anonymous No.2127442]

>>2127421
of course.

Christianity is a monotheistic faith. God is everything and anything and he made it all, too. He made Hell, he made the Devil, he still exercises control over them. A lot of Christians try to deny this kind of thing, turn it into a dualistic religion but if you read the Bible that's not it at all. God is the source of all, but the Devil is his own agent of evil.

[Anonymous No.2127487]

>>2127442
Fail.
Albert Einstein described sin as the absence of God.
Like cold is the absence of heat
and darkness is the absence of light.
Chaos as the absence of order.
Lucifer was given freewill and cast out of heaven for pridefully believing he was greater than God and staging a coup.

>>2127435
It looks like that when read in the conglomerate of Isaiah 14 but the tone shifts and is clearly speaking of an entity beyond man afterword. The translation of the word 'man' is meant to be translated from the Hebrew to construe gender not species. It's drawing on a parallel of character in the Babylonian king and the person of Lucifer/Satan.

[Anonymous No.2127501]

>>2127487

Even if this Lucifer was an angel, why does he have to be the same person as Satan? It sounds like Satan was banished because he was a liar, deciever and foe of mankind, while Lucifer was thrown out because he was arrogant and put himself above God.

[Anonymous No.2127548]

>2011
>not creating servants out of shit, sperm and blood

I'm pretty sure one of the alchemists looked for a way to create his own waifu through chemistry and science.

[Anonymous No.2127553]

>>2127435
Another example of a drawn parallel of an ancient king/ anti-Chirst character and the person of Lucifer/Satan.

Eze 28:2 Son of man >(Jesus),
say unto the prince of Tyrus,Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, am a God, I sit in the seat of God,in the midst of the >seas (loosely translated from masses)
; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:3 Behold,thou art wiser than Daniel;
>(which is inaccurate, alluding again to another entity being described/[Satan/Lucifer])
there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden >(Doi? The king of Tyrus was in Eden?)
the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl,the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire,the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
>(poetic allusions to the physical beauty of Lucifer/Satan)
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub >(Lucifer/Satan was the most high angel and was perfect in all aspects of angelhood including singing/praise [music])
that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon >the holy mountain of God (Heaven)
;thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

[Anonymous No.2127556]

Cont'd
>>2127553
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of >the mountain of God (heaven)
: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub
>(Lucifer), from
>the midst of the stones of fire. (Lake of Fire)
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness
>(meaning of Lucifer is enlightened one)
:I will cast thee to the ground,I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries >(children of God)
by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
>(prophecy for end-times scenario)

[Anonymous No.2127574]

>>2127501
>It sounds like Satan was banished because he was a liar, deciever and foe of mankind
>while Lucifer was thrown out because he was arrogant and put himself above God.

But there was no cause for Satan/Devil to be a deceiver and hater of mankind unless he was ostracized for some reason beforehand. And don't use the argument that he was being a tool of God, if that was the case he wouldn't have been punished so severely for doing it.
Please cite sources if you don't want to sound like an idiot.

[Anonymous No.2127635]

>>2126975
OH SNAP I JUST READ THE WIKI
That thing in hell boy that was covered by eyes... was one of the four brother tier?

[satan !OW9DVqIqy6 No.2127648]

I am the greatest tripfag in the Bible

[Anonymous No.2127654]

They are one and the same.

[Anonymous No.2127660]

>>2127648
>saging an on topic thread

[satan !OW9DVqIqy6 No.2127669]

>>2127660

>bumping with an off-topic post

[Anonymous No.2127882]

>>2127669
>tripfaging on an anonymous board

[Anonymous No.2128219]

i like this thread

[Anonymous No.2128237]

>>2127660
>implying the bible is literature and not hidebound to the stalest and most cliched genre tropes of religious myth

[Anonymous No.2128262]

I always assumed that Lucifer was his name as an angel, and he took the name of Satan afterwards. Devil is just a title, like demon is for his fellas.
It doesn't make sense otherwise, storywise.
> Oh look, my favorite angelfu betrayed me. I will banish him to the underworld along other angel bros of his.
> LOL MY BEST ANGEL IS NOT THE LEADER OF DEMONS, IS THIS NEW GUY CALLED SATAN THAT CAME OUT OF HIS ASS.
> LOL LUCIFER IS JUST SITTING ON HIS ROCKING CHAIR SINGING ON A MANDOLIN, NO LONGER APPEARING ANYWHERE IN THE STORY.

[Anonymous No.2128265]

Why didn't Satan use the snake to deliver the apple to Adam and Eve instead of forcing them on a plodding, dangerous trek through Mordor themselves

[Anonymous No.2128266]

>>2128265
you forgot the frodo pic

[Anonymous No.2128376]

>>2128237
It's like you don't even know how old it is. You can't say something is suffering from tropes or clichés it is helping to invent.

[Anonymous No.2128794]

Ok one saved souls
The other steals
/thread

[Anonymous No.2128800]

Ok one saved souls
The other steals
/thread

[Anonymous No.2130119]

>>2128800
souls didn't exist at that point to save

[Anonymous No.2130144]

>>2127442
>God made hell
>made
>hell
Oh snap.

[Anonymous No.2130155]

- Lucifer was the very first fallen angel.
- Satan was the creature that leads all the fallen angels and he's the ultimate boss of the game
- The Devil is just the essence of Satan

[Anonymous No.2130266]

In Big Four Tier, you misspelled Donatello.

[Anonymous No.2130343]

>>2130144
God made hell post insurrection/ freewill Lucifer/ Satan

[Anonymous No.2130344]

>>2127442
the official position is God made the Devil good, but then he fell.

In the arguements of the scholastics, these issues were hotly debated, like whether it happened in the same moment or a moment after creation.

[Anonymous No.2130360]

>>2130344
I think the whole concept of time is meaningless in that case. Time is a man made concept and therefore moot in a celestial/deitic sense. If it happened our finite minds could hardly have a chance to grasp it in it's full entirety.

[Anonymous No.2130389]

I actually know a thing or two about this. Satan started in Jewish beliefs as one who they called The Accuser, who went around accusing people of the sins they committed and reported back to God, this eventually morphed into him being the one who sways people to commit sin. Lucifer was supposed to be an Angel in heaven and Christians made up some story at some point surrounding him and his attempt at usurping God, and eventually being cast out and becoming the devil. True story, ancient Jews didn't believe in an afterlife, and as such most of these just came out of the evolution of the religions attempting to either scare people into following them or adapting to other beliefs.

[Anonymous No.2130415]

>>2130389
Pics or it didn't happen.

Their afterlife was called Abraham's Bosom or Paradise loosely translated. Give source material. Jewish Texts were translated perfectly for thousands of years. They have a set process of writing it even down to the counted to each numeral and amount of space taken up on page.
Their was a conflict between Pharisees and Sadusees as to the existance of an afterlife, both coexisted at the same point.

[Anonymous No.2130476]

>>2130415
Well, I'd love to give sources, but this is coming from years of going to private school. Just from a quick google I found this concerning the afterlife.
http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm

[Anonymous No.2130549]

>Later in the Torah, the concept of conscious life after death begins to develop.
>Daniel 12:2 declares,
>Later in the Torah
>Daniel

The Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible.
The rest of the Old Testament is the Tanach.
I call bullshit on the qualification of rest the article based on that.
I went to (christian) private school as well, and you don't see me bragging about it, except for now you do...
awkward...

[Anonymous No.2130631]

>>2130476

Gen 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave
>(Sheol/Hades translated)
unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Gen 42:38 And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.
>(Sheol/Hades)
Gen 44:29 And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring do my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.
>(Sheol/Hades)
Gen 44:31 It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave.
>(Sheol/Hades)
Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit
>(Sheol/Hades)
; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
Num 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit
>(Sheol/Hades)
, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger,and shall burn unto the lowest hell,
>(Sheol/Hades)
and shall consume the earth with her increase,and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
>This is the only areas of afterlife mentioned in 'The Torah'.

[Anonymous No.2130663]

>>2130476
Job is supposed to have been written prior to Moses popping out the first 5 books of the Bible so here is some more before that time period.

Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away:so he that goeth down to the grave
>(Sheol/Hades)
shall come up no more.
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell;
>(Sheol/Hades)
what canst thou know?
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
>(Sheol/Hades)
that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave
>(Sheol/Hades)
is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit,
>(Sheol/Hades)
when our rest together is in the dust.
Job 21:13 They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave.
>(Sheol/Hades)
Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave
>(Sheol/Hades)
those which have sinned.
Job 26:6 Hell
>(Sheol/Hades)
is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

[Anonymous No.2130815]

>>2130343
>hell
>a place or thing

[Anonymous No.2131063]

>>2130815
>>2130476
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
- hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

It is a literal place in Jewish texts I have a translator for each world in the Bible to the Jewish or Greek word meaning depending on the section.

[Anonymous No.2131695]

>this whole thread

[Anonymous No.2131801]

>>2130663
Wait aren't you an Archangel gone Mischief Demon?

[Anonymous No.2131805]

lucifer=satan=devil

light bearer = adversary = fallen angel

same dude

[Anonymous No.2131810]

fyi, the devil was a cherub

[Anonymous No.2131822]

>>2130663
There is also the valley of Gehenna.

A separate destination from Sheol, and a place of torment.

Either torment, or a Void where body and soul are annihilated completely.

[Anonymous No.2131828]

>>2131822
torment

we are eternal beings

[Anonymous No.2131969]

>>2131828
We eternal now.jpg

[Anonymous No.2131991]

Satan (Hebrew: הַשָׂטָן ha-Satan), "the opposer",[1] is the title of various entities, both human and divine, who challenge the faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible.[2] In Christianity and Islam the title became a personal name, and "Satan" changed from an accuser appointed by God to test men's faith to the chief of the rebellious fallen angels ("the devil" in Christianity, "Shaitan" in Arabic, the term used by Arab Christians and Muslims).[3]

The Devil (Greek: διάβολος or diábolos = 'slanderer' or 'accuser'[1]) is believed in many religions and cultures to be a powerful, supernatural entity that is the personification of evil and the enemy of God and humankind. The Devil is commonly associated with heretics, infidels, and other unbelievers. The Abrahamitic religions have variously regarded the Devil as a rebellious fallen angel or demon that tempts humans to sin or commit evil deeds. Judaism sees the Devil as an adversary and an accuser whose role is assigned rather than assumed. Others regard the Devil as an allegory that represents a crisis of faith, individualism, free will, wisdom and enlightenment.

Traditionally, Lucifer (English pronunciation: /ˈluːsɪfər, ljuːsɪfər/) is a name that in English generally refers to the devil before being cast from heaven, although this is not the original meaning of the term. In Latin, from which the English word is derived, Lucifer means "light-bearer" (from the words lucem ferre). It was the name given to the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, which heralds daylight. For this meaning, English generally uses the names "Morning Star" or "Day Star", and rarely "Lucifer".

[Anonymous No.2132039]

>>2125355
This, though as someone who knows Hebrew I would say it should be translated rather as the adversary or one who opposes. The former is most common I believe for interpret Hebrew. In Judaism his role originally was as an angel who was against humanities pre eminent role and who doubted humanity was good. There was no fall and he is seldom mentioned in the old testament, but finds a particular home in the story of Job.

[Anonymous No.2132483]

>>2131991
Lucifer's meaning can be 'Day Star', 'Morning Star' or 'light-bringer'. It's significance is that it is symbolic of being the dawn or first of his kind. The first celestial being created by God and the the first to rebel against him as such.

[Anonymous No.2132511]

>>2132039
And I suppose you think the only talking animal in Genesis was just that, a talking animal.
>serpent

[Anonymous No.2132562]

This thread needs more "Snappy"

[Anonymous No.2133047]

>>2132483
Lucifer just butthurt that Jesus came along and was on God's right hand side.

[Anonymous No.2133087]

>The Bible is a book after all.
No, it's a text.

[Anonymous No.2133112]

When I think of the bible I always wonder when did God create the Hell. Like, it isn't described in the seven days of creating the world, but the Snake is present and evil around the time people were created. And when were the angels created? And Hell? I asked priest teaching religion in my school but all he told me was rubbish because he actually was derping around not giving me any specific answer.

[Anonymous No.2133120]

>>2133047
Jesus was begotten before time. Learn your creeds.

>We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
>the only-begotten Son of God,
>begotten of the Father before all ages.
>before all ages.
-nicene creed

Secular hedonists are ridicolously ignorant.

[Anonymous No.2133121]

>>2133120

hi married oldfag

[Anonymous No.2133125]

>>2133121
nope

[Anonymous No.2133128]

As far as I am aware, Lucifer originally had nothing to do with the Devil. It was just some Babylonian King or something. Then people misinterpreted it as part of the Devil's story, and it was cemented in the public conscience as such with Milton's Paradise Lost.

[Mad Scientist Hououin Kyouma !!RBaVX6t0twu No.2133132]

I always thought:

Devil: Species
Lucifer: Obviously the one who got kicked out of Heaven:
Satan: Entirely different person to Lucifer.

[Anonymous No.2133185]

This seems to stem from the misconception that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are different entities as well, when they are all, in fact, different names for the different manifestations that God takes.

[Anonymous No.2133193]

>>2133185
Depends on your religion. In Christianity, The trinity are three names for three different roles played by the same character. In Mormonism, Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct, biological organisms. Elohim is the father of both Jehovah and Lucifer. They all disagreed on some stuff, and Jehovah basically kicked Lucifer out so that he and the archangel Michael could create the earth together. Then Michael became Adam and the progenitor of the human race, and Jehovah waited around for a while until he showed up as Jesus, at which point he ministered to the Native Americans secretly for many years about how they are actually the descendants of Hebrew Jews.

I wish I was making this stuff up.

[Anonymous No.2133210]

I read old mythological texts so that I can catch the references in my japanese interactive toys

[Anonymous No.2133217]

>>2133193
As a Christian I will agree that the Bible says some silly things, but damn, that's just awful. I thought just the story of Joseph Smith and Brigim Young were bad, but that's just silly. That basically makes God not the most powerful being ever, and thus some one not to be worshiped. How does this make sense to anyone?

[Anonymous No.2133239]

OP is a fatlus neckbeard /v/irgin

[Anonymous No.2133242]

>>2126442

In the Bible, as far as I can recall, only the angels described as the 'Big Four' in OP's pic are mentioned: Raphael, Gabriel, Michael, and Uriel. Not even Lucifer is mentioned directly.

All of those other angels come from other religious works and may or may not be considered cannon.

[Anonymous No.2133264]

>>2133242
Mentioned by name, you mean. The others are mentioned, for example the Seraphim in Ezekiel I believe.

[Anonymous No.2133290]

>>2133193
>Depends on your religion. In Christianity, The trinity are three names for three different roles played by the same character.

this is sabellianism, which implies patripassianism. It is deeply heretical for all mainstream christian sects.

As a general rule, don't use analogies for the Trinity, as there is nothing like it under the sun.

[Anonymous No.2133303]

>>2133264

>Mentioned by name, you mean.

Yes exactly.

[Anonymous No.2133313]

There is not right answer, because Judaism and Christianity were never static. All sorts of different people at different times absorbed other people's gods into and changed the celestial power chart. It's a good PR campaign, you know. "Well I already have a God" "Ha! little do you know, Your God is just my God's flunkie!"
The greeks did it, the Romans did it, the Jews did it. Religion is fluid - best that we know that from the beginning.
But if you're really into this OP, the medieval monks were really into getting the hierarchy of heaven written down. Of course, it matches their own social model but... anyway, have at it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy

[Anonymous No.2133330]

Why should the hierarchy even matter? It doesn't directly influence the religion at all. The Bible contains no hierarchy chart because it's irrelevant to the mortal condition.
The early Christian church was truly monotheistic and not concerned with the other celestial beings because all were secondary to God.
The Roman Catholic Church was the true culprit for integrating other religious traditions into this otherwise unsullied following. The various saints, angels, and 'the Virgin Mother' were integrated later to create this paraxodical polytheistic religion within a monotheistic one.

[Anonymous No.2133331]

Think of it like this:

The bible has been co-authored by at least 15 different people, all of which have a different idea how this whole thing is supposed to work.
Maybe they thought if they introduced new characters every now and then, the reading wouldn't get so stale (I mean imagine if the power rangers were still fighting Bandora, wouldn't that be kinda lame?).

[Anonymous No.2133347]

>>2133331

The Power Rangers fought Rita Repulsa. Bandora was in the Japanese show.

[Anonymous No.2133348]

>>2133330
prot revisionism, veneration of mary was legit at the first council of ephesus and was widespread before evidenced by art in the catacombs.


Sage for the UCC today, Unitarian tommorow crowd.

[Anonymous No.2133349]

>>2133330
>Why should the hierarchy even matter?

Because everyone loves talking about powerlevels.

[Anonymous No.2133372]

>>2133331
Good God I want to reach through my computer and strangle you. Have you ever even read the Bible? On that note how many on this forum have actually read the Bible? I see plenty of people writing like they're experts on the subject yet without any references or shreads of proof. I'm the only person on this forum who has actually given references. Yes, it's written by different authors, but it succeeds in creating a cohesion of narrative unfound in any other document spread throughout that many various generations. I implore, I beseech you to find contradictory statements within the Bible.

[Anonymous No.2133445]

I always found Thrones interesting since they aren't a creature described as a fusion between living creatures(example, a human + 10 wings + a bear head). The unusual shape really gives the feeling that they would have a mind and priorities that we cannot understand. It's a real pity they made it look human.

[Anonymous No.2133526]

>>2133348
The Romans already had their foot in the door at that point, Constantine was self appointed as the new head of the religion before this. He saw the flaw in his predecessors attempt to irradicate this fresh and zealous movement, and seized the opportunity to solidify his position
>with fallacious claims of vision and endorsement
as a demi-god within it. The Romans hated the Christians because they wouldn't accept their precious emporer as a deity. Peter wasn't the first pope, because popes have nothing to do with christianity. Try and find one reference to popehood in the KJV Bible, I dare you. As the years went by, with council after council adopting various aspects of other religions,
>(Father/Virgin Mother/Jesus[Pope\Emperor] = Osiris/Isis/Horus[Pharoah] paradigm)
>Minor gods = Saints
you see this mangled whore of a church that was once a budding bride, turn to things that the masses of the time found more easily accessable.
I reject all ecumenical councils
>325 - 787 AD
as canon christianity.
>Early Christians were hunted down like rabid dogs.
>the early hierarchy was more of anarcho-syndicalist mentality
You talk about negationism, but what force had near absolute control over history in Europe during the middle ages?
>the Papacy

[Anonymous No.2134243]

>>2133217
That's just the beginning. There's plenty of other gems like that in Mormonism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BqLZ8UoZk

[Anonymous No.2134264]

>>2126976
>The Ophanim (Heb. ofanim: Wheels, also known as Thrones, from the vision of Daniel 7:9) are unusual looking even compared to the other celestial beings; They appear as a beryl-coloured wheel-within-a-wheel, their rims covered with hundreds of eyes.

Holy shit that's awesome.

[Anonymous No.2134277]

>>2133193
What?? No. But I... seriously. You AREN'T making it up?
>>2134243
Oh, now I see. You're just quoting the shit about Mormonism that other people have made up. Come on, man. Virtually nothing in that cartoon is true. The Baptists have a long history of grossly, grossly distorting Mormon beliefs in order to present a sickening spectrum of strange beliefs designed to repulse traditional Christian believers.

That's all horseshit. If you want to know what Mormons believe and teach, you ask one, or you read their scriptures. What you don't do is use defamatory material produced by their enemies to discredit them and pretend it has any basis in fact.

Okay, so why am I defending Mormonism? Well, I wouldn't say I'm defending Mormonism so much as I'm pointing out your idiocy. You're probably new to critical thinking, but FOUNDATIONAL to all critical thinking is the phrase, "Consider the source."

I'm not Mormon. I'm not Christian. But I was raised Mormon and didn't really get away from the church until I was 18 or so. I'm not saying isn't Mormonism isn't full of shit. It is. It's just not the particular shit you're using to shit talk them.

[Anonymous No.2134282]

>>2126618
There is no Satan figure in Genesis, that is a Christian conception. Thanks for adding to the misunderstanding dumbass.

[Anonymous No.2134296]

>>2134277
I'm not that guy. And I should correct myself - that is not what modern Mormons believe (they removed all the embarassing stuff from the core doctrine), but what Joseph Smith believed - yes, I have read a few Joseph Smith texts other than the book of Mormon. Only things I found problematic in the video are trying to make everything sound sci-fi (celestial this, celestial that) and the added sexual references.

[Anonymous No.2134305]

>>2134277
>>2134296
If you still don't believe me, I can give you direct sources from Mormon texts. It's not problematic at all, it'll just take a while.

[Anonymous No.2134313]

>>2134305
LOL. Be my guest. Though you should understand, going into the conversation, that Mormon doctrine is specifically, because of the particular nature of Mormon belief, open to interpretation in such a way that, unless you can actually authoritatively state, "This is what the text says and this is how Mormons interpret the text," you'll be wasting your time. I can predict very easily where you'll go wrong. Your interpretation of the text will differ from how Mormons teach the text. If you want to have a discussion about "Mormon beliefs" while pretending that what actual Mormons believe isn't relevant, we probably shouldn't bother. If you want to have the discussion though, you're more than welcome to hunt down the text, post it here, state your own person interpretations of the text, and then listen as I explain why your interpretation doesn't jive with how Mormons teach it and thus, doesn't jive with what Mormons believe, I'd be happy to indulge you in that process.

[Anonymous No.2134323]

>>2134313
I don't see why you have such a disdainful attitude towards me, even though I admitted the partial errors in the video. Eh, I don't want to waste 20 minutes on fully sourcing the video for someone who'll just stubbornly be against anything I say. I have found a somewhat incomplete list of sources, so if you want to argue with someone, argue with that. I don't want to waste any more time "debating" religion on 4chan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q6brMrFw0E (description)

[Anonymous No.2134326]

>>2134313
I don't see why you have such a disdainful attitude towards me, even though I admitted the partial errors in the video. Eh, I don't want to waste 20 minutes on fully sourcing the video for someone who'll just stubbornly be against anything I say. I have found a somewhat incomplete list of sources someone else wrote up, so if you want to argue with someone, argue with that. I don't want to waste any more time "debating" religion on 4chan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q6brMrFw0E
(description)

[Anonymous No.2134337]

>>2134326
In other words, you're copping out. Okay, that's fine. But don't pretend it's because I took a disdainful attitude toward you. I didn't. I know what Mormonism teaches because I was in the religion for 18 years.

I went to Church every Sunday. Each night my family sat in a circle and read 1 chapter from the scriptures as we cycled our way through them. I went through the meetings, the interviews. I was a home teacher. I held "The Priesthood." Studying and understanding Mormon beliefs was (unfortunately) the larger part of my life. I had no choice in the matter. I didn't believe in the teachings and as soon as I left home, I was out of it.

Being disdainful toward you has nothing to do with it. Very, very simply: Mormons don't believe what you are saying they believe. You are using, as your source, intentionally twisted interpretations of Mormon doctrine specifically designed to make Mormonism seem sickening to traditional Christians. I can quite readily sit here and correct those misinterpretations, if you like.

If not, that's fine too.

[Anonymous No.2134348]

>>2134337
No, I'm not withdrawing because I disliked your attitude, and not pretending to do so. I'm withdrawing because this would be a waste of time for both you and me. I wasn't using the video as a source, just a collection of the ridiculous parts of Mormon doctrine. When reading the texts, I interpreted them exactly the same as in the video. If you're so sure that it has nothing to do with Mormonism, I'll just ask my friend, an ex-Mormon (who first recommended that video to me, by the way) about that tomorrow. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll be off to bed (it's 4:20 AM here). Have a good night, sir.

[Anonymous No.2134357]

>>2134348
Have some dignity dude. Stop with the theatrics and the hysterics. That's the thing about 4chan. When you want to bail out on a debate, you can just fucking bail. Nobody knows who you are, so it doesn't matter.

[Anonymous No.2134366]

>>2134357
But these aren't theatrics, I just wanted to explain myself before I left, so you don't get an impression that this was an argument that resulted in nothing. I am not hateful towards Mormons, and will definitely ask about this subject tomorrow. If you want to say what's wrong with those sources, then do so. I'll read them in the morning.

[Anonymous No.2134462]

>>2134366
But that's absurd. You were the one who proposed putting together all the teachings and having me respond to them. All I said was, okay, if you want to do that, I would, but it would probably waste your time because your premise is flawed at the outset. Now you're saying you're leaving the conversation, but you expect ME to find all the sources and debate myself and you'll read it in the morning?

Christ, that's so fucking retarded. Why would I do that?

[Anonymous No.2134521]

>>2134462
he gave you a list of sources at
>>2134324
you fucking moron. now start a new thread.

i'd sage but this thread is too damn good. shame it turned to shit with you two arguing about mormonism.

[Anonymous No.2134526]

i meant
>>2134326

fucking auto thread updaters.

[Anonymous No.2134700]

>>2134282
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil
>(cunning/crafty/prudent)
than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
>there you have the serpent; the deceiver (Devil) and the adversary of man (Satan)

[Anonymous No.2134746]

>implying Lucifer isn't the anti-hero of The Bible and the fictional character that should be worshiped...

Sure is Lawful Evil in here....

[Anonymous No.2134779]

>>2134746
Fun fact: there is a stream of theology that believes the God of the Old Testament, יהוה, is a force of evil, and that the God of the New Testament is the true, good god, who revealed himself to the world through Jesus Christ.

[Anoneemouse No.2134781]

In Christianity:
Demons are fallen angels who were tempted to follow Lucifer, the most beautiful of all the angels, because he got arrogant and thought he could play god. There are many demons (comes from daimon, meaning deity in ancient Greek), but only one devil: Lucifer. Lucifer is also known as Satan because it comes from the ancient Hebrew word for adversary: Ha'Satan. These names are used because people were afraid to speak his name out loud. The more you know.

[Anonymous No.2136134]

>>2134746
>implying anti-heroes are anything more than morally ambiguous protagonists.

IMO being an anti-hero is taking the easy road.

>Furthermore Lucifer couldn't be the protagonist because he's nothing more than an occasional footnote.

[Anonymous No.2136154]

>>2134700
ISHMAEL, YOU DIRTY SEMITE.

[Anonymous No.2136178]

>>2136154
?
I am Confucius...
>Ishmael
>Semite

[Anonymous No.2136193]

>>2136178

[Anonymous No.2136195]

>>2126442
go to /x/

[Anonymous No.2136292]

>>2136239
Okay, I skimmed the wiki.
What sources does he cite to give his philosophy credence?
How is that relevant to the argument?
Are you proposing Genesis isn't translated properly from the Hebrew to English?
Speak, damn you, speak!

[bassetsquirrel No.2136299]

>>2136292
shall i call you Edward Hickman, or i, which one of us will live out happier years.

[Anonymous No.2136326]

>>2136292
Linked the wrong one. I was talking about Ishmael.