/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21233796]

Is he right or is it just him projecting his depression onto capitalisms that he dislikes so much?

[Anonymous No.21233838]

>>21233796
The consensus among colleagues, although it's obvious from his writing, is Fisher believed there was, indeed, no alternative. He ought to be seen as cautionary tale of putting too much emphasis on theory.

[Anonymous No.21233841]

>>21233838
based

[Anonymous No.21234023]

>>21233838
Easy, with, the commas, fuck face. This is not what Fisher believed, his point is in the subtitle of the book. "Is there no alternative?" It's about the widespread perception of their being no alternative and questioning why and how that came to be

[Anonymous No.21234059]

>>21233796
He was wrong about everything.

[Anonymous No.21234221]

>>21234023
Yeah but he offers no real solution does he.
Unless it's the one he himself ultimately chose.

[Anonymous No.21234243]

>>21234221
>noooo you cant just kill yourself even though life is meaningless and only people with money can enjoy it

[Anonymous No.21235448]

>>21234023
Because there is no alternative. The bourgeoise were the subject-object of history, not the proles. Thermidor was the last genuine revolution.

[Anonymous No.21235463]

>>21233838
Ever depressed fucker thinks there's no alternative, that's textbook depression. (we used to just call it despair ya know)

[Anonymous No.21235468]

>>21233796
The only thing I like about it is the introduction of the term "hauntology." I think more books should be based around this theme. Specifically I want a reinterpretation of Hegel as a proto-hauntological historicism.

[Anonymous No.21235477]

>>21234243
All the shitposting I've done today, didn't think I'd get basedjack'd for that one

[Anonymous No.21235702]

>>21233796
No

[Anonymous No.21235779]

>>21233796
https://youtu.be/cNyUx1CBv6Y

I made a video detailing chapter by chapter how this book is full projection. Case in point, all his examples revolve around education. why? because he was a teacher. i mean what are the odds this philosophy book about our zeitgeist has only examples about teachers and students? another example was that he told people in chapter 5 to politicize mental illness. why? because he had mental illness. He was a suicidal depressive and what are the odds his thesis is about hopelessness?

Like ayn rand once said, all these dudes who try to sell you on a bleak existence where man is a doomed character in a world of danger around every corner are just projecting their own psychology. that's all i got out of this book

[Anonymous No.21235800]

>>21235779
Fisher watched movies during his lifetime, what are the odds his philosophy uses examples from film?

[Anonymous No.21235804]

>>21235779
Ayn Rand is a demiurgic jewess, I would if anything take the opposite of anything she says to be true.

[Anonymous No.21235824]

>>21235800
I actually enjoyed his movie and book reviews. It was the best part of this shitty book. He was a shitty philosopher but a good book critic.

But to address your point: every. single. concept he tied back to education and his job. It was all MEsearch not research

[Anonymous No.21235844]

>>21235779
>that's all i got out of this book
And it shows

[Anonymous No.21235858]

>>21235824
I have not read the book, nor have I watched your video. How does this 'refute' anything? You are only critiquing the way in which he chooses to relate his point, not the actual point itself.
Refute my cock, sissy.

[Anonymous No.21235872]

>>21235858
>I have not read the book
>nor have I watched your video

[Anonymous No.21236690]

>>21233796
>faggot manlet with a hilarious voice is threatened by the world and an ideology that requires you to actually be competent to thrive
>spends his life hiding in academia
>kills self out of cowardice
Many such cases!

[Anonymous No.21236695]

>>21233796
I didn’t think this was very insightful or that it had any new ideas. It’s stumbling commie apologia you have already heard in an online discussion.

[Anonymous No.21236698]

projection. saying that since the rise of neo-liberalism theirs been an increase in depression, solely due to the intrinsic nature of deregulated capitalism is clearly a projection.

[Anonymous No.21236703]

>>21235779
positive shilling, thanks op

[Anonymous No.21236803]

>>21236690
>an ideology that requires you to actually be competent to thrive
kek you've never had a job, have you?

[Anonymous No.21236805]

>>21233796
Capitalism is super gay but so is leftism so like idk bro. I am just trying to have a good time, accomplish my teleological duty and avoid engaging with the consumerist machine.

[Anonymous No.21236813]

>>21236803
>job
He said thrive

[Anonymous No.21236843]

>>21236813
You don't need "competence" for any number of decently paying jobs.

[Anonymous No.21236853]

>>21233796
>Workers just lack imagination!
Isn't this idealism?

[Anonymous No.21236901]

>>21236813
>>21236843
You don't need competence to be an absentee landlord/capitalist either. You don't even need competence to manage a major company, because you can just hire consultants to do that for you.

[Anonymous No.21237023]

>>21233796
>sees the strokes on MTV once
>"OMG time is folding in on itself! Culture is stuck in a loop recapitulating old st-ACK!"

[Anonymous No.21237038]

>>21236805
Quite lonely over here, isn't it?

[Anonymous No.21237120]

>>21237023
He was mostly right about that though. Movies and tv are still completely stuck on second or third hand nostalgia, just remaking and redoing existing properties now more than ever. Music on the other hand has mostly gotten over it (late 2000s to mid 10s were peak retromania), although it's arguably worse for it, or at least popular music is

[Anonymous No.21237370]

>>21237038
A bit, yeah. I try to look for other "survivors", I suppose, and also to hone my mind and body in case I am ever needed, but it is kind of lonely. Besides, people who share my type of personality, my interests or my loyalties are very rare - much more so if I am looking for people who share all three of these. Odds are that - deep in my heart - I always have been and always will be alone. I would never have expected something like that when I was a kid. It's a bit rough, since I am very sociable by nature, but I'll be okay, and hey, who knows what might happen in the future?

[Anonymous No.21237397]

>>21235468
Actually that was Derrida (in Spectres of Marx), according to Wikipedia.

[Anonymous No.21238209]

>>21237397
Derrida used it in a different way but yeah he did coin the term

[Anonymous No.21238293]

>>21233796
both

[Anonymous No.21238297]

>>21237120
You hit it right on the head, and that's funny because I've thought the same thing for a little while that yeah music has gotten out of the kind of nostalgia baiting of the last couple years but unfortunately the "music of our time" is what? Trap? "Deconstructed club"? Elevator music engineered in focus groups and market researching that owes no allegiance to any particular era? So yeah man I agree that getting out of the kind of backwards looking mindset at least in music has not necessarily helped us either, because the music of the present reflects the hopeless solipsism and greed of said present.

[Anonymous No.21238349]

>>21238297
>the "music of our time" is what? Trap? "Deconstructed club"?
Trap, meme/mumble rap, that slow sad white woman (think lorde/lana del rey/billy eyelash etc) pop they used to call alt r&b or art pop or whatever. Trap (the hip hop kind) took the beats directly from old Memphis rap but I'd say it's its own non-nostalgia based genre now

[Anonymous No.21238381]

>>21238349
>Trap (the hip hop kind) took the beats directly from old Memphis rap but I'd say it's its own non-nostalgia based genre now
Yeah exactly, but no genre, not even "new" and "shocking" like jazz is divorced from its roots in the past. I don't listen to much trap, but I never got the impression there's much room for nostalgia in it, at least not in the most popular variants (like drill, for example, which I also don't want to listen to because I don't give a fuck about NGA Bitchboi's street beefs with PSY Poobah). That's the world we're in. It's almost like we're starting to shake off post-modernism (in some areas), but the modernism of now is still very grim.

[Anonymous No.21238571]

>>21238381
Hip hop (and derivatives like drill and footwork and whatever) has always been very anti-nostalgia compared to pop and especially rock, there's no such thing as hip hop oldies stations and very little quoting or interpolation from its past phases in whatever its current incarnation is. I think zoomer music (or post-mass proliferation of the internet which coincides) in general is especially about living in the now and obliteration of historical memory, couple that with the fact that hip hop is the predominant music of today and that's why the nostalgia bait has largely stopped.

[Anonymous No.21238612]

The alternative to a socialist future is much more retarded and primitivist as capitalist productionist ideology ideology declines and I think that was something he refused to ponder as being to grim of a future. Our times are very much fruitful for a revolution because the people are denied so many oppurtunities both in terms of a cohesive aesthetic and moral world view and in terms of political economy centered on the old european welfare state. Neoliberalism can only last so long before its starts eating itself, at which point it starts canibalizing on itself. I think thats what he coudn't stand in typical British manner, that daily, routine life as we know it would end.

You can also see the absolute coping strategies the Brits are going through currently with all those rituals with the queen, they are a deeply psychologically maladaptive people due to early school trauma programming and have interiorized class down to a psychological level , whereas in most of europe the upper class is just out right alien and is seen with indeference or hatred.

[Anonymous No.21238613]

>>21238349
>slow sad white woman (think lorde/lana del rey/billy eyelash etc) pop they used to call alt r&b or art pop or whateve
This is my favorite genre of music. I think the earliest true example is Mazzy Star
https://youtu.be/avv2IIdDnnk

It has slow core and shoegaze elements to it but I wouldnt put actual shoegaze into the same category. Some other top examples:
Lykke Li - I know Places
https://youtu.be/0DKw_xnzKok

Grouper: Headache
https://youtu.be/8oc8UUzlfwE

Beach House - Somewhere Tonight
https://youtu.be/fTwQvRNWrI8

Lana del Rey - Heroin
https://youtu.be/3-nW3luYvzc

[Anonymous No.21238621]

>>21238613
Dido was one of the first imo although it was less electronic based back then. And also whoever sang like the deserts miss the rain

[Anonymous No.21238643]

>>21238612

Also to add to this, think of the way Lenin or even György Lukács critiqued modernism , they didn't think that "there was no alternative" as proposition. They critiqued modernism on its face as hypocritical, these were learned people and were seeing the tide turn as they lived , they waited for chances for a social movement to be crystalized. Instead Fisher, like Adorno before him critiques popular culture as stupid on its face, because it is stupid and always will be stupid and manipulative. Its a chicken or the egg thing , someone who is cozy in bourgeois capitalism will refuse to entertain alien forms to its standard practices. In fact there is not enough critique today of bourgeois philosophy and its lamentable to me that such a psyop is going on today in the name of political correctness and not critiquing on its face cozy bourgeois academic cultural critique.

Adorno critiqued Jazz , but Jazz could very well be be apropirated by some African socialism movement , how did he know it would not? Because he was cozy in academia, is the answer.

[Anonymous No.21238648]

>>21238571
Hiphop was pretty nostalgic in the 00s. There was an entire subgenre basically just dedicated to taking about the 90s, usually lamenting the present. It seems like that current mostly died out in the 10s though.

[Anonymous No.21238650]

>>21238571
Hip hop (and derivatives like drill and footwork and whatever) has always been very anti-nostalgia compared to pop and especially rock, there's no such thing as hip hop oldies stations and very little quoting or interpolation from its past phases in whatever its current incarnation is

Now see here I have to take a minute and ask you what you mean? The amount of sampling and call-backs and oldhead-ism in hip-hop is staggering and goes back to the 90s. Whether it be rappers interpolating phrases from old and r&b soul songs into their lines or sampling old music, it has always been there. Sometimes it's even wistful too, look at Biggie with "Things done Changed" or Little Brother with "Speed" or many of the songs off "Black on Both Sides" by Mos Def, I think hip-hop has a lot of nostalgia and respect for its past, but the difference is that often times the poppiest rappers encourage and are rewarded for having the "current trend coolest" mindset, unfortunately. I think this has gotten worse and worse as the music industry and the levers of pop culture have bought more and more into hip-hop and rap, so it has, as you said, become more and more obsessed with trendiness and floating rootless in the present (like zoomers in general, as you said).

I'm glad zoomers (I was born in '96 so I actually think I count as one myself lol) are trying to form a their own identity, but despite that I think that they are too mired in post-modernist neolib nonsense so that their "new identities" are cobbled together from the cultural detritus and psychological hang-ups from earlier generations. They're trying to form a unique, contemporary identity, but they're not futurists, they're not true modernists, so they can only make that new identity by slapping together leftovers, reheating them, and re-framing them in irony and new technologies. I think this has a lot to do with why so much they do seems like "larping" or just co-opting aesthetics to form their personhood around. Sorry lol, did that make sense?

[Anonymous No.21238653]

>>21238613
Dude don't even compare Mazzy Star to Lorde and Lana. Mazzy is in a class of their own, they're sexy and dark and melancholic and mature. I don't see that depth in Lana, Lorde, or Billie Eilish but I'll admit I don't listen to them.

[Anonymous No.21238654]

>>21238648
Exactly

[Anonymous No.21238687]

>>21238653
Lorde and BE are pretty shallow but Lana imo has depth at times. Mostly though I am just talking about the feel of the music. Lana and MS both (sometimes) have this sort of slow fuzzy/ambient enveloping feeling, where their voices just kind of drift in and out of the instrumental in an almost spectral fashion and it is all immensely soft and smooth, with this sort of "mystical" overtone.

[Anonymous No.21238727]

>>21238687
I guess I'll just have to take your word for it then cause like I said I don't listen to Lana. I just get the overall impression that pop has gotten overall more digital, less emotionally authentic, and lower effort. Maybe it just boils down to me having nostalgia for Mazzy Star's music, because my dad used to play "Among My Swan" in the car sometimes when I was a really young kid and I would be in awe of the effect of Hope Sandoval's voice combined with the sultry, soulful guitar tone and the dreamy bells, it all roused something like an early appreciation for eroticism or something lol.
Shit like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUP7GvRTbAU&list=PLiN-7mukU_RE-G4Xoy4nRvj8krhKJq6FF&ab_channel=MazzyStar-Topic
I had no appreciation for the lyrics but....man...it just made me feel this pulling in the pit of my stomach, something I can't put my finger on. Anyway it's probably just impossible to get that kind of feeling from hearing anything new as an adult, so it's probably just nostalgia or like some Freudian childhood psychology shit.

[Anonymous No.21238776]

>>21235448
Ultimately true and comical. I see this as an absolute win

[Anonymous No.21238782]

>>21238727
I mean I agree with you that Mazzy star are better musicians. Lana del rey is kind of trash, but it's like art trash. Her music is distinctly different than other random female pop stars.

[Anonymous No.21238857]

>>21238782
Fair enough, I see where you're coming from

[Anonymous No.21239032]

>>21236690
>born into wealth
where is the competence needed here? To not buy too many boats?

[Anonymous No.21239062]

>>21238643
>Jazz could very well be be apropirated by some African socialism movement
kek literally Thomas Sankara

[Anonymous No.21239069]

>>21239062
more like Fela Kuti. I think he was some kind of socialist, and he took jazz, mutated in some Nigerian influence, and ran with it

[Anonymous No.21239332]

>>21237038
I find it interesting that the russian 4chan still uses a lot of imagery of dudes with bags over their heads. Its like an eastern western schism of chan internet culture

[Anonymous No.21239377]

>this thread again
this board is a disease

[Anonymous No.21239386]

>>21239332
Russian internet is a lot more like pre culture war western internet. Like 2010 4chan. Although maybe not anymore because of Ukraine war idk I havent browsed there much this year.

[Anonymous No.21240494]

>>21235477
>All the shitposting I've done today, didn't think I'd get basedjack'd for that one

[Anonymous No.21240780]

there is no alternative because the alternative is a different side of the same coin

[Anonymous No.21240804]

>>21238613
>slow sad white woman music
Is that not just Phoebe Bridgers core now?
Holly Humberstone, The Japanese House, Soccer Mommy, Gatlin, Charli Adams, Ethel Cain, etc.
Pump that shit into my veins (not gay btw).

[Anonymous No.21240812]

>>21240804
Those are a different genre, they dont have the ambient kino and lull

[Anonymous No.21240831]

>>21240812
They are definitely related to lorde and billy eilish (and taylor swift i guess). They don't have the shoegaze elements that you seem to like, but the guy called it 'art pop'.

[Anonymous No.21240863]

>>21240831
Taylor swift also is not part of the same thing. The closest she comes are songs like Dear John and Sad Beautiful Tragic. Lorde's relevant songs are things like Still Sane and 400 Lux, and for Billie Eilish it is Ocean Eyes, I dont wanna be you anymore, When the partys over, and that sort of thing.

Art pop is a more culturally respectable thing than "sad white girl songs" I think. It has a types of weird people like Dirty Projectors

[Anonymous No.21240990]

>>21235779
ayn rand was a woman who was essentially untouchable by intellectual standards and rode the anti-communist gravy train. She's a stupid whore with no input on how dangerous the world really is
>inb4 you're le, le weak man!
I don't give a fuck, you are retarded. Never post again.

[Anonymous No.21241010]

>>21238612
Socialism or barbarism is true, but barbarism is 100% preferable and all the urbanoids shilling this retarded has-been catchphrase are domesticated weak creatures who belong in a mass grave
CHAZ wasn't barbarism, it was just fucking disastrously pathetic and laughable
For all your talk about shit that's plain on the face of it, in your followup post, you should consider that you are self-evidently repulsive and a disgusting demoralized blob

[Anonymous No.21241017]

>>21235448
Proles and bourgeois are one and the same. There is ontologically no distinction. This is why liberalism and communism are axiomatically identical and differ only in implementation and conclusions: because this is a schism in a world created by the extreme success of Third Estate bellyaching

[Anonymous No.21241032]

>>21233796
Socialists, Communists, and other anti-Capitalists don't have a firm grasp on history. If they did, they would understand that since the Neolithic resources tend to accrue in the hands of a small number of individuals. This cannot be remedied in any way because planned societies are impossible. It is impossible for a group of people to sit down and say, "Ok, these individuals will own this, and those individuals will own that." Therefore we have no control over our destiny. It seems that technology is what drives history. And if that's the case, then Capitalism will always prevail because it is simply more efficient than other economic systems. So yes, Mark Fisher was correct when he stated that it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of Capitalism. It looks like that is the way we are headed, given the looming threats of AI, climate change, and nuclear war.

[Anonymous No.21241044]

>>21241032
Planned economies have repeatedly emerged in history. The existence of elites is not synonymous with the presence of capitalism. Capitalism is merely the term for an economic system which places a major emphasis on reinvestment of wealth to accumulate more wealth. You may think this is obvious, but economic systems abound which focus instead on spending wealth on diplomacy, on religious institutions, on maintaining agrarian outputs, or any other number of priorities besides the growth of invested capital.
The main problem with capitalism is that it is precisely unsustainable. It is taxing on natural and human resources and the drive for profit is catabolic and eventually the society devours itself.
For example, the threats you name are exactly products of capitalist efficiency and any surviving society will by necessity not be capitalist. It won't be socialist or democratic either, but it certainly won't be capitalist. One thing I despise about communists is how they fail to understand that populist utopianist materialism is just as unsustainable and terminally flawed as capitalist organization, which relies on astroturfed pop-utopian-materialism itself anyways

[Anonymous No.21241055]

>fisher realized how easily his ideology could be captured by liberalism to accelerate global control so he killed himself
lmao, I hope he is burning in hell and gets to watch the neoliberals continue their dominance

[Anonymous No.21241064]

>>21241055
you're 1 for 2

[Anonymous No.21242022]

>>21241032
>It seems that technology is what drives history.
and what follows is that history is driven by something completely inhuman. it is naive and overly optimistic to think that capitalism is directly analogous with human desire. it is what Baudrillard means when he says "the object takes revenge". technology needs to become more like the subject; it has to develop a sense of care whilst having a taste for immortality instead of a mineral death-drive.

[Anonymous No.21242543]

>>21234023
Bugs, easy, on the, commas…

[Anonymous No.21242567]

>>21241044
>Planned economies have repeatedly emerged in history.
This isn't true, and a planned economy doesn't communism. A planned can have slavery, capitalism just fine. Ignoring that, this argument is extremely weak on it contradicts Marx's own argument. A mode of a production is a product of its conditions; so called "planned economies" of thousands of years ago aren't relevant to today when the world is different.
>The main problem with capitalism is that it is precisely unsustainable
This isn't true. This is just the climate change/ environmental alarmism that's pushed by leftoids. You embellish problems that are purely technological, and you do this because you're a humanities major. You're not someone with the knowledge to understand the logistics of economic and biological management.

[Anonymous No.21242581]

>>21237038
I'm sitting in that very position as I scroll through this thread.

[Anonymous No.21242596]

>>21242567
I don't give a fuck what Marx said, he doesn't have a monopoly on the concept of planned economies, socialism, or communism for that matter. Even if he did, I'm not a communist
>retarded screeching
>you're a humanities major
you're going to love this, but I'm actually a virologist
Anyways, read Linkola

[Anonymous No.21243056]

>>21240990
Based on how retarded "mainstream" philosophers are, and the retarded crap they've said, she is no more "untouchable" than them. Derrira said text precedes speech. Marxs economics are laughable to any economist and his physics are laughable to any physicist. He said they movement can come out of nothing. Nietzsche talked out of his ass for thousands of pages and didn't prove anything. They all did

If you actually read her books, and not just what other people say she said, you'd see she perfectly predicted and refuted the modern woke movement.

[Anonymous No.21243109]

>>21242596
Not him but...

Marx said the source of all evil is capital. By taking away capital you'd then take away evil.
Your definition of capitalism is "to reinvest capital to create more capital" which you said was unsustainable. Sounds pretty Marxist to me.

Your alternatives to capitalism is using capital for diplomacy, religion or agricultural output. Sounds like a planned economy to me.

How long are you going to keep waiting for capitalism to fail? Do you predict it in your lifetime?

[Anonymous No.21243359]

>>21241032
Globally planned economies already exist. They are called Amazon and Walmart, to name a few. It may not be possible for humans to plan an economy, but computers sure can.

[Anonymous No.21243584]

>>21233796
>>21233796
He uses tarkovsky as an example of the aesthetic superiority of the Soviet system, ignoring the fact that tarkovsky defected and then had to pay for his cancer treatment through the charity of western filmmakers who, unlike him, owned the rights to their work.
Even before his defection, censorship boards hated Tarkovsky's work and hindered him at every turn.
Fisher takes out of context examples like this to argue his point. Some of his ideas are interesting but his willingness to misrepresent reality discredits them.

[Anonymous No.21243589]

>>21243359
Those are not economies. You have been repeatedly btfod about this exact point numerous times already

[Anonymous No.21243601]

>>21236805
Disgusting Untermensch

[Anonymous No.21243721]

>>21243601
How is anything I said untermensch-like?

[Anonymous No.21243863]

>>21238612
Any day now huh

[Anonymous No.21243970]

>>21233838
>>21234023
>>21234221
>>21235463
'Is there no alternative' is a response and reference to the Thatcher quote 'There is No Alternative', that there is no alternative to the neo-liberal capitalist order.
Are you people stupid? I didn't even read this book and I instantly understood this.

[Anonymous No.21244026]

>>21243970
Stop the thread everyone. This guy who hasn't read the book figured out Fisher was just larping, and being suuuuppper sarcastic

[Anonymous No.21244046]

>>21243970
Yes, and my point >>21233838 was he ended up agreeing with Thatcher's assertion. Like the infamous neocons, her lot made reality while the Ivory tower tried in vain to keep up.

But the fact that I assumed what you said was a given, understood by everyone here and not some amazing high IQ feat of insight appears novel to you. Fag.

[Anonymous No.21244197]

>>21235779
t. least pseud /lit/ poster

Ayn Rand lol, lmao even. You can't make this shit up

[Anonymous No.21244209]

>>21244197
Your entire post is constructed out of stock phrases