Orthodox Christianity

[Anonymous No.21225878]

Been struggling with the idea of losing my loved ones in the future. I am more comfortable with the idea of my own death than I am of fact that I will more than likely outlive all my loved ones. I love them so much, and can't imagine a life without them.

I studied philosophy and university. I found some solace in Enlightenment(Kant, Hegel) and Existential thinkers(Paul Tillich, Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky). However, they don't seem to get at the heart of the matter of the human condition. I grew up orthodox and it feels like home, despite my qualms about the existence of miracles.

Can anyone relate? Orthodox reading as well as stories of passed loved ones is much appreciated.

God bless and take care.

[Anonymous No.21225937]

Who are the essential Orthodox writers/theologians?

[Anonymous No.21225945]

>>21225937
Jay Dyer

[Anonymous No.21225977]

>>21225878
just live life assuming theres an afterlife. this is the natural way humans operate. its more out of utility than anything else. i also struggle with faith because evolution is so clearly true. good luck anon. spend time with them before they die. dont have regrets

[Anonymous No.21225987]

>>21225977
>i also struggle with faith because evolution is so clearly true
lol

[Anonymous No.21225995]

>>21225878
Have you read Berdyaev? He's a Russian Orthodox existentialist. If you liked the protestant ones like Tillich and Kierkegaard, you might find him closer to home. He has a really good book on Dostoevsky that you can start with him. Another Orthodox existentialist is Christos Yannaras, but he is more theological. Quite different style than the others, but a very good read nonetheless.

[Anonymous No.21226017]

>>21225987
lol but no actual counter argument

[Anonymous No.21226186]

>>21225995
No I am pretty ignorant of the Orthodox Literature outside of Dostoevsky unfortunately. Thank you for the suggestions I will definitely check em out.

[Anonymous No.21226207]

>>21225937
Ask your local priest

[Anonymous No.21226222]

>>21226207
/thread

[Anonymous No.21226245]

>>21225937
From modern to contemporary essential Orthodox theologians and thinkers see Andrew Louth's book Modern Orthodox Thinkers: From the Philokalia to the Present. He gives an excellent overview and introduction to almost all important Orthodox theologians.

[Anonymous No.21226538]

>>21226245
nice rec
thanks

[Anonymous No.21227850]

>>21225878
Read "The Soul After Death" by Seraphim Rose

[Anonymous No.21228047]

>>21225878
My God what a pussy, go read and watch Macbeth.

>>21227850
>your loved ones are going to get tortured by aerial space daemons hiding in the planets who will intercept their souls as they try to exit the solar system to get into heaven and who will cast them back down to Earth and into hell for failing their torture tests
Highly doubt that will help our sensitive soul here.

[Anonymous No.21228158]

>>21225878
Have you read into Fedorov and Russian cosmism? He had the same impulses as you (drawn from the same Slavic character type?), his solution was "the common task" of developing immortality and the resurrection of all ancestors within the present world, to make the promises of Orthodoxy an actual reality rather than an escapist fantasy.
>Using science, art, and technology, Fedorov believed that humanity’s primary goal should be to create the Kingdom of Heaven. He, unlike most Christians who equate this concept with the movement of the disembodied soul to the afterlife, saw the acceptance of death as false Christianity and believed that it was every human being’s duty to work towards abolishing death. “Death is merely the result or manifestation of our infantilism […]” he wrote in The Philosophy of the Common Task. “People are still minors, half-beings whereas the fullness of personal existence, personal perfection is possible.”
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-russian-cosmism-nikolai-federov

[Anonymous No.21228605]

>>21225977
>evolution is so clearly true
>because le current society believes it to be so
If CNN announced today that evolution has been debunked you would instantly stop believing in it.

[Anonymous No.21228681]

>>21225878
I've started reading Christ the Conqueror of Hell, it's small but quite good. Have also had The Departure of the Soul on my bookshelf for the past few years, but from the little I have read of it, it's also pretty good.

Otherwise, just read Fr Seraphim Rose and the Church Fathers

[Anonymous No.21229387]

>>21225977
>evolution is so clearly true
if you examined this claim critically for even an hour you would come to the exact opposite opinion, that vertical gene-transfer and random mutations is so obviously false, and that the much more significan mechanisms concern horisontal gene transfer and enviroment.

[Anonymous No.21229422]

>>21226207
>ask your local retard
>>21225878
Raised orthodox here. Most orto priests are absolute cretins theology-wise. If you want actual theology, go into the books of the church fathers.
If you want actual spiritual guidance, try talking to a monk at your closest monastery.

[Anonymous No.21229978]

>>21229422
my priest is pretty good

[Anonymous No.21230946]

>>21227850
Yeah I agree with >>21228047 lol, Rose’s works are basically pure schizoposting that are like two steps from a Chick Tract, reading those books without proper context of who this guy was and how fringe his views are has created more LARPing e-ortho nutcases than anything else

[Anonymous No.21231524]

>>21226207
This is honestly the orthodox cope. I can’t take you guys seriously when you say this to every fucking question.

[Anonymous No.21231954]

>>21225937
Take Catechumenate with ur local priest.

[Anonymous No.21232507]

>>21231524
Why are you coming to /lit/ for your religious questions and not someone who studied and trained as a priest who can answer all of it? You tradlarpers are stupid

[Anonymous No.21232545]

>>21225878
Is that Cleopa?

[Anonymous No.21232683]

>>21232545
To my knowledge he did not have the great schema. Kinda looks like him, but also the beard on the guy in photo is a lot bushier than Cleopa's. Also, that variant of the great schema with the hood is popular in Russia, not Romania.

[Anonymous No.21232779]

>>21231524
It's the best advice there is. You're meant to ask him about everything, that's why he's there. If you ask a group of 99 laymen, you get 100 contradictory answers and called a heretic 101 times

[Anonymous No.21232874]

Bulgakov is kinda fun but I still think Sophiology is pointless.

[Anonymous No.21233210]

>>21225977
>i also struggle with faith because evolution is so clearly true
On what basis are you so sure?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noj4phMT9OE
https://archive.org/details/GenesisCreationAndEarlyManTheOrthodoxChristianVision

[Anonymous No.21233289]

>>21232874
I liked his essay about Judas.

[Anonymous No.21233802]

>>21230946
Cope
>>21231524
More cope

>>21228047
Super cope.

>>21225878
Read any books you can find on Elder Paisios (later Saint Paisios), they're dynamite.

[Anonymous No.21234361]

>>21233802
>Elder Paisios (later Saint Paisios)
good rec. also top tier level is St. Sophrony Sakharov

[Anonymous No.21234366]

>>21234361
>>21233802
Have you guys read anything by St. Joseph the Hesychast? I really liked his collected letters.

[Anonymous No.21234389]

>>21234366
St Joseph the Hesychast is also top tier, but didn't write much to my knowledge, just like St Silouan. He was made known more by his disciples Ephrem of Philoteou (later Arizona) and Joseph of Vatopedi. Both of them wrote very good biographies of him.
Someone else in the same league is Elder Aimilianos Vafeidis. He wrote quite a bit, and of very profound spiritual quality.

[Anonymous No.21234435]

I'd rather my loved ones died and stopped existing than the possibility that even one of them could end up going to hell and being tortured forever and ever and ever

[Anonymous No.21234465]

>>21234435
Universal salvation is a thought entertained by many Orthodox Fathers and theologians from St Gregory of Nyssa and St Isaac the Syrian (used to pray for the devil) to modern theologians such as Bulgakov and Ware.

[Anonymous No.21234467]

>>21234465
>entertained by
Key words here. Nowhere is it taught as actual doctrine, nor should it be.

[Anonymous No.21234479]

>>21234467
I agree, both with not being a doctrine, and the fact that it should not be taught. Still hopeful universalism is ok, as a more healthy attitude in many instances. I'm thinking of St Silouan and the ascetic who condemns everybody to hell.

[Anonymous No.21234581]

>>21233802
>Cope
>More cope
>Super cope.

[Anonymous No.21234643]

>>21234581
I am native Orthodox and do not hate formerly Protestant catechumens. They bring new life into the Church and regularly attend. Not one could be described by your strawman internet meme. (You) are underage, mean spirited, and ironically terminally online. Touch grass.

[Anonymous No.21234686]

>>21234643
>native Orthodox
>defending Seraphim Rose
I'm a native Catholic and I don't go around defending Nick Fuentes, even if he's the reason for a lot of """""converts"""""

[Anonymous No.21234712]

>>21234686
Seraphim Rose was a Heiromonk and while he had some eccentric views(many fathers have), he was never anathematized and he is well respected in the American and Russian orthodox communities. Nick Fuentes' probably doesn't know basic Catholic doctrine and is a layman at best. There is a big difference.

[Anonymous No.21234774]

>>21225937
Justin Popović

[Anonymous No.21234788]

>>21234712
Aerial toll booths was a borderline apocryphal ideology which was not approved of by many at all before he popularized it. Now it's the defining feature of orthoLARP to the point where there are constant memes about it. Surely that doesn't constitute some sort of heresy to you?

[Anonymous No.21234819]

>>21234788
Aerial Toll Booths have not been the subject of any formal council. The Orthodox Church does not have a dogmatic position on them, although I think they're a probably ridiculous concept. I have not read Fr. Rose's works on the matter, and I haven't read criticisms either so I'm not one to judge.
Either way, a prot or atheist that converts to ortholarpery starts a heretic and turns, possibly, into another form of heresy. But as an ortholarper he may find a Church and receive Catechism, correcting his false beliefs and becoming a genuine Orthodox Christian.

[Anonymous No.21234875]

>>21232545
no

[Anonymous No.21234989]

>>21234819
The amount of OrthoLARPs who become genuine practitioners from it can't be higher than 5%. The sheer embarrassment it causes your religion must outweigh such a negligible benefit

[Anonymous No.21235125]

>>21225878
I refuse to believe these guys can't cast fireballs

[Anonymous No.21235128]

>>21225995
>>21232874
Based and theosophy-pilled
>Sophiology is pointless
Why?

[Anonymous No.21235150]

>>21234989
There's literally no benefit greater than saving souls. 5%, 2%, or 0.1%. Who cares if some teenagers make cringe memes?
I get your genuine concerns. From an orthodox perspective it isn't a problem, but I can see how it might be a big deal from a purely materialist perspective.

[Anonymous No.21235212]

>>21234712
I do not doubt that Rose as a man was well-intentioned, compassionate, and kindhearted, but Rose as a writer is simply a terrible choice for attracting anyone to Orthodoxy or even Christianity in general

As a writer, Rose's tone is practically unbearable; his attitude is more cantankerous than the most short-tempered Zen master, he unabashedly carries himself with the most intolerable sense of self-assured intellectual superiority, he often says things that are outright vicious, spiteful, rude, accusatory, presumptuous, and just plain cruel, he is relentlessly elitist (both ideologically and religiously) and very frequently seems unable to mask an apparent contempt of anything not strictly aligned with his particular flavor of Orthodox Christianity

The kind of people who are actually going to be "won over" by Rose's writing are exactly the sorts that you DON'T representing your beliefs: resentful, misanthropic, disaffected individuals with a penchant for belonging to an "in-group" that nurtures conspiratorial, cult-like thinking, who would prefer to complain about the world much more than they'd actually like to work on changing it

Most people are going to react with horror and disgust at the portrait of God that Rose presents, because it is a cruel and ugly God, a God indifferent and self-righteously apathetic to the vast sufferings of the world, content to leave the vast majority of us to rot under the thrall of demonic horrors - more akin to a big, cold, pitiless eye in the sky without a shred of empathy for anyone than any kind of deity as one would expect to be revealed in Jesus Christ, you'd be horrified if you ever met it, for all of the stink that Rose raises about nihilism the deity he describes is despair-inducingly uncaring

[Anonymous No.21235230]

>>21235212
That's just highly innacurate. Did you even read?
Sure, if there was an elitist and spiteful man then he would not be good to represent Orthodoxy, but that does not describe the man. The problem with Seraphim Rose as an entry point is that his writings are far too abstract, not that he's cruel, a hilariously inacurate accusation.

[Anonymous No.21235299]

>>21235230
>Sure, if there was an elitist and spiteful man then he would not be good to represent Orthodoxy, but that does not describe the man.
The man himself, I have no reason to believe was elitist or spiteful, but his writing simply cannot help but give this impression off

I really don't want to just wantonly shit on the guy, I have no enmity for him as a person, but it's difficult because a lot of his writing centers around wantonly shitting on other people, he gets pretty shockingly nasty towards people who hold different viewpoints than him a lot of the time to the point where I, personally at least, was genuinely put off by how bad his attitude came across

The worldview that he presents in his writings is extremely cruel by basically any metric: the entire world is under total control by essentially all-powerful demons (the sheer breadth of abilities that Rose attributes to demons are so vast that it almost reaches the level of Descartes' thought experiment where you literally can't trust any of your own senses), science is effectively useless for determining any kind of knowledge whatsoever due to the aforementioned demons, you are absolutely fucked and God will toss you to the wolves if you belong to any religion that isn't a specific sect of Christianity and even if you are part of that sect you're most likely fucked anyway since you're basically in the Matrix and there's no escape in any area of your life from the Worldwide Gangster Frankenstein Computer UFO Demons - not even in death, because to put it bluntly you've got a better chance of winning the lottery than you do of making it past those tollhouses

If someone genuinely held to Rose's worldview wholesale, I don't know why they wouldn't just take the final leap and become a full-blown Gnostic; both viewpoints seem to lend themselves to the same sense of schizophrenic paranoia, only the Gnostics are willing to also vilify the creator of this twisted gauntlet whereas the traditional adherents will find some excuse for why it's not actually God's fault that we're all being psychologically tortured in a nightmare hellscape 24/7

I want to emphasize that this is solely a critique of trying to sell someone on Christianity with Rose's writings; as far as I'm aware the man himself was a perfectly fine and most probably genuinely pious person, he just wrote a lot of very weird offputting shit

[Anonymous No.21235324]

>>21235299
Then I don't really have a problem with what you're saying. He's definitely blunt about certain facts, for instance salvation isn't just "if you're a good guy." Sure, it might not sell Christianity, but you Christians shouldn't be nefarious salesmen. I just don't see any spite or rudeness, just corrective rebuke and a justified intolerance of what is wrong (obviously, if you're a Christian you believe in the power of faith leading to absolute Truth, and the Church believes dogmatically that they're the only Truth. Tolerance of wrongness leads to corruption.)

It was interesting to hear your perspective and various comments, I suppose I'll get to reading about the Aerial Toll Booths.

[Anonymous No.21235330]

>>21235324
>>21235299
>but you Christians shouldn't
The "you" here was a typo.

[Anonymous No.21235346]

>>21227850
Recycled Near-Eastern myths about the soul rising into space and having to fight daemons hiding in the planets before escaping the solar system into the heavenly empyreal space of the fixed stars beyond the Kuiper Belt. Really dumb stuff.

[Anonymous No.21235355]

>>21235324
>He's definitely blunt about certain facts, for instance salvation isn't just "if you're a good guy." Sure, it might not sell Christianity, but you Christians shouldn't be nefarious salesmen. I just don't see any spite or rudeness, just corrective rebuke and a justified intolerance of what is wrong (obviously, if you're a Christian you believe in the power of faith leading to absolute Truth, and the Church believes dogmatically that they're the only Truth. Tolerance of wrongness leads to corruption.)
Hence my expression of confusion of why if you genuinely believed that shit was this utterly terrible you wouldn't just become a Gnostic or at least some kind of misotheist; offering worship to a deity perfectly content to torture you and probably a lot of people you love in a cosmic concentration camp does not seem like a particularly moral course of action

Any entity running the tollhouse racket posited in some Orthodox works probably doesn't have your best interests in mind (it's also apparently cooperating with demons, which is pretty weird)

[Anonymous No.21235380]

>be me
>find out about the Fools for Christ and read the life of St. Simeon Salus
>mfw found out you can act like a total schizo and play a bunch of pranks on people and be canonized as a Saint for it.
Can anyone recommend me books on lives of Saints?

[Anonymous No.21235388]

>>21235346
Actually this is really cool

[Anonymous No.21235396]

>>21225937
Read Saint Gregory of Nazianzus's On God and Christ, St Athanasius's On the Incarnation and St Basil the Great's On the Holy Spirit. God bless.

[Anonymous No.21235422]

>>21235299
I mean, based on your description, Rose is not really all that wrong from a holistic standpoint or view of reality. And if God is the only hope of salvation from the hellscape, then there is simply no reason not to put your entire faith in Him. Anything else would be "fighting against the tide", a tide which by definition has no end and will only lead to perpetual torment. Refusing God's Grace would be akin to holding your hand against a burning stove just to spite the person who originally gave birth to you. I don't really see how this is a cruel worldview anymore than the world is already cruel itself. If you were to see a child doing the above, you wouldn't kindly explain to them why it's futile, you'd smack them and tell them not to do it, assuming they didn't learn the hard way.

[Anonymous No.21235428]

>>21235388
As long as you switch your brain off and pretend Galileo never existed, which is the Orthodox head in the sand method of keeping the peasants dumb and obedient to the Ottomon Caliph or Russian Tsar; stagnant and dead Platonic omphaloskepsis whose end result is dressing in apotropaic magic pajamas (OP pic) to scare aware daemons the same way a modern crystal-collector wears a Hamsa/Eye of Fatima medallion around her neck.

[Anonymous No.21235436]

>>21235428
Yeah, but have you ever heard of demons eating an apotropaic magic pajama clad Hieromonk? Hmm...

[Anonymous No.21235466]

>>21235436
Within their own discourse they constantly explain away everything bad that happens to their fellow monks, like madness, suicides, murders, rapes, thefts, and internal discord (Orthodox continually fight eachother internally in venous wars of denunciation and counter-denunciation), as being the work of daemons. So by their own standards, yes the daemons bypass the apotropaic magic pajamas.

[Anonymous No.21235489]

Scott

[Anonymous No.21235495]

>>21225977
>>21225987
>>21228605
>>21229387
Some of you are just pride nutjobs and it shows. Evolution is true, this is official Church doctrine. You would rather LARP Alex Jones than follow God, his Church and his tenets. Disgraceful.

[Anonymous No.21235504]

>>21231524
So you don't want advice from someone that studied the Bible extensively? How does that make any sense?

[Anonymous No.21235512]

>>21235495
Evolution is not part of Church dogmas.

[Anonymous No.21235550]

>>21233802
>Read any books you can find on Elder Paisios (later Saint Paisios), they're dynamite.
Based. Modern saints should be read more than anyone else because their advice are more pertinent to us than everybody else.

[Anonymous No.21235562]

>>21235422
>And if God is the only hope of salvation from the hellscape, then there is simply no reason not to put your entire faith in Him.
That's like saying that the guy holding you hostage in his murder basement is the "only hope" of your salvation because he has the keys to open the door of the place where he trapped you to begin with

It's technically true, in the same way that giving a mugger money does indeed (usually) "save" you from being shot, but you're putting your faith in the same party that also threw you into this mess to begin with

[Anonymous No.21235589]

>>21235562
It's not, because in that case the guy holding you hostage is not the only hope. It's just a false analogy.

[Anonymous No.21235738]

>>21235504
I do but my problem is I never even get to learn enough about orthodoxy to get the the point where I’d even want to bother with speaking to a priest. Anytime I’ve asked basic questions about orthodoxy to see if I’d be interested I get the response “ask your local priest”. I get that response if I was a an orthodox already or maybe asking a deep obscure question. But not basic things that’s separate orthodoxy from other Christian sects.

[Anonymous No.21235783]

>>21235738
It's not like you have to get to any point or be qualified in some way to ask a priest a question. You can email one at any time if you don't want to go in person and get a much better answer to whatever you're asking, even if it's a basic question, than you would get from 99% of the posters here.
Honestly it's kind of strange that you would ask 4chan first since you'll always have to wade through garbage responses and trolling before anyone seriously responds to you while it's literally part of a priest's job to answer the questions of inquirers.

[Anonymous No.21235971]

Ortholarpers are like "why yes the Immaculate Conception is a bizarre novelty that is not authentic Christianity anyway why yes after you die your soul will float up to a truckstop in the sky and you must defeat demons in a game of Bop-It"

[Anonymous No.21236154]

>>21235971
I will be fair and say that 1v1ing planetary demons after you die is pretty badass from an aesthetic standpoint.

[Anonymous No.21236157]

>>21235512
It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible or dogmatic texts, of course, nor does the Church deal with it philosophically. It's just acknowledged as an empirical fact. The Church doesn't dabble in empiricism and positivism so it doesn't have much for things like this other than statements. The point is exactly who cares

[Anonymous No.21236198]

>>21235783
not to mention the bs that is thrown around here. Anons tend to have the most bizzare and outright extremist gay opinions.

My point is that for religious matters one should not ask on 4chin. Info on religion is something you should get from someone moderate. Notice how most anons are discussing the validity of orthodoxy and not answering OP's question. This goes to show this is not the place to ask important questions.

[Anonymous No.21236209]

>>21235512
Yeah electromagnetism isn't a part of Church dogmas either. What's your point?

[Anonymous No.21236222]

>>21234581
this is such cringe bruh. Why are you like this? Are you 16 yo or what?
>I don't understand much theology but it's based.
Yeah you don't need to.

[Anonymous No.21236227]

>>21225878
>despite my qualms about the existence of miracles.
Not an Orthodox author but you should give Miracles by CS Lewis a look

[Anonymous No.21236794]

>>21234686
Seraphim Rose's books were sold in every Orthodox book shop in Russia long before all this online traditionalism.

[Anonymous No.21236824]

>>21235495
>Evolution is true, this is official Church doctrine
which fucking "church"? Because any christian church would assume the doctrine that man was created by God.

[Anonymous No.21236839]

>>21236157
>It's just acknowledged as an empirical fact
Evolution, the biological theory that has failed to accrue empirical verification over 150 years of attempts is an empirical fact? I you had at least appealed to Lamarck I would take you a bit more seriously. Anyone that has actually studied biology cannot escape realising how rickety the theoretical framework of darwinian evolution is.

[Anonymous No.21236881]

The Orthodox engaged in the greatest ecclesiastical abuse in the history of church, in their selling of absolution certificates, with the full consent of multiple patriarchates.

[Anonymous No.21236883]

>>21236881
what are you talking about? The Orthodox didn't have indulgences.

[Anonymous No.21236913]

>>21236883
The Orthodox Church sold indulgences called Absolution Certificates in which you could pay an amount of money to have your or someone else's sins directly absolved without repentance or penance. The practice occurred from the 1500s to the early 1800s.

It was ruled to be proper apostolic tradition at the Council of Constantinople (1727) by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, and Jersualem. It was later condemned at the Council of Constantinople (1838).

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Eastern_Orthodox_Church

[Anonymous No.21236925]

>>21225878
>dostoevsky
>existential

What?

[Anonymous No.21236941]

>>21236913
oh...I stand corrected. indeed a Babylonian captivity of the Orthodox Church as Florovsky described it.

[Anonymous No.21236956]

>>21236941
>It's the West's fault even though the West never did anything this corrupt
A bloo bloo

[Anonymous No.21236969]

>>21236157
>>21236209
It means it has nothing to do with whether one is saved or not.

[Anonymous No.21236982]

>>21236956
>even though the West never did anything this corrupt
the Western Church invented indulgences and used them way longer than the Orthodox. for the Orthodox it was never official doctrine, it was just local practice.

[Anonymous No.21237011]

>>21236982
Indulgences in the west had nothing to do with absolving sins and pertained only to purgatory, regarding sins that had already been forgiven through repentance and the sacrament of penance. It's not the same thing.
>it was never official doctrine
How was it not when it was confirmed in a council by multiple patriarchs?

[Anonymous No.21237213]

>>21236982
It was officially part of the treasury of Orthodoxy until it officially wasn't.