/clg/ - Classical Languages General

[Anonymous No.21223605]

mfw watching another thread devolve into shitflinging and pointless arguments edition
>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>21181179 (Cross-thread)

>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/9o4QEIIK#P3piz8Bfw-z7jgb7Q8NWDg

>Mέγα τὸ ANE
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

Try to be civil
No youtuber or eceleb discussion
Best way to learn is to pick a textbook and start reading it. Don't ask, just read
Ignore shitposters, do not feed the trolls

[Anonymous No.21223606]

>>21223605
Screwed up already, previous thread is
>>21203261

[Anonymous No.21223812]

quantum odisti feminas in tua patria?

[Anonymous No.21223836]

>>21223812
>quantum
Shouldn’t this be quam?

[Anonymous No.21223849]

Cleopatra moaning in Greek and Egyptian

[Anonymous No.21223852]

The more I study latin the less I like it

[Anonymous No.21223867]

>>21223812
Quod PhD est talis superbiae fons?

[Anonymous No.21223879]

>>21223852
That's because you don't actually care about literature, grammar, rhetoric, or classical studies. You just joined the bandwagon because you saw a Tikie Tokie of someone "speaking" Latin.

[Anonymous No.21223927]

>>21223849
Is it bad I actually think it would be kinda hot if someone talked dirty to me in Latin?

[Anonymous No.21223944]

>>21223927
Pēdīcābō ego vōs et irrumābō,
Aurēlī pathice et cinaede Fūrī,
quī mē ex versiculīs meīs putāstis,
quod sunt molliculī, parum pudīcum.

[Anonymous No.21223978]

>>21223836
no, quam is for exclamations

quam feminas odi! - oh how I hate women!

[Anonymous No.21224042]

remember that guy a few threads back that had tattooed "Σίσυφος" and "Puer Aeternus" on to himself?

[Anonymous No.21224048]

I want to take the Heebpill
Any advice?

[Anonymous No.21224073]

>>21223944
Lol

[Anonymous No.21224257]

>egomericanus soom. cujatis es tooo?

[Anonymous No.21224273]

>>21224042
No, anon. I don't remember. Could you elaborate please?

[Anonymous No.21224277]

>>21224042
>tfw wrote the letter Phi wrong
its over

[Anonymous No.21224586]

>>21224273
>sans serif
grim

[Anonymous No.21224715]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmcI9v3YGfg
>late latin
I'll have to work on making this my default pronounciation since I'm not a christcuck and "reconstructions" are cringe. Didn't even know there were more options.

[Anonymous No.21224745]

>>21224715
>"reconstructions" are cringe
>I'll have to work on making this [slightly later reconstruction] my default pronunciation

[Anonymous No.21224760]

>>21224273
>>21224277
Fortunately you won't live long enough to regret them, you'll most likely be dead from a fentanyl overdose within the next 5 years

[Anonymous No.21224772]

>>21224257
poor woman. imagine some burger theatre kid asking you to be a part of his gay latin video and you're too nice to turn him down.

[Anonymous No.21224819]

>>21224715
>Modern music translated in bad Latin
Why is this a thing?

[Anonymous No.21225293]

>>21224819
The only way to earn shekels with latin

[Anonymous No.21225510]

Has anyone used the Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin book? It claims that with a year of study you should be able to read and understand ecclesiastical Latin.

[Anonymous No.21225602]

>>21224257
Quale video?

[Anonymous No.21225617]

>>21225602
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRUo3YIEpqU

[Anonymous No.21225624]

>>21225510
It's modeled after Latin: An Intensive Course. I have the both, but have only read the latter. It would not take you a year. You could be reading the Vulgate in a few months, and reading authors in less than six. Just pair it with lots and lots of reading. If your goal is Ecclesiastical Latin, then the Vulgate may suffice, whereas for people learning Classical I would recommend more difficult readings.

[Anonymous No.21225632]

>>21225617
This makes me embarrassed to admit that I study this language.

[Anonymous No.21225634]

Im in the middle of trudging through Plato. He’s so much better in Greek. He reminds me a lot more of ancient Chinese literature in how terse and context-dependent it can be. In English translation it’s so dull but in Greek even if I have to look up many words and add then to my anki deck, I feel a huge breath of life from these very real people discussing very real things. I’m starting to think the only way to read him is in Greek.

>>21223812
An actually funny woman on Twitter, what a breath of fresh air.

[Anonymous No.21225759]

>>21223605
tell me a cool quote/aphorism/name from a classical language to tattoo
So far I tattoo'd Puer Aeternus and Σίσυφος

[Anonymous No.21225788]

>>21225759
I recommend
>parva pipinna possideo
It has a nice alliteration to it and means
"I conquer all who oppose me"

[Anonymous No.21225940]

>>21225759
χαλεπὰ τὰ καλά

Beautiful things are difficult.

[Anonymous No.21225941]

>>21225632
I miss when I didn't know about /clg/ or cringeymathy

[Anonymous No.21225956]

>>21225788
You could give him something with correct grammar at least.

[Anonymous No.21226022]

>>21225759
Deus built (I am a zoomer who fell down the alt right pipeline and now thinks Christian fascism is so heckin cool and based and would willingly vote in a national socialist government if they promised to own those darn blue haired feminists)

[Anonymous No.21226028]

>>21226022
*Deus vult
I use 4chan on my phone you see so vult was autocorrected to built.

[Anonymous No.21226069]

>>21225759
οὐ φροντίς μοι

[Anonymous No.21226085]

>>21226022
Really? I feel sorry for you, then.

[Anonymous No.21226108]

>>21225759
Brekekekekekekex koax koax

[Anonymous No.21226115]

>>21226028
I thought it was a romaboo+bodybuilder thing
BTW where are all the romaboos? They were everywhere a few years ago, but I can't recall seeing any during my visits to this general.

[Anonymous No.21226210]

>>21223605
can you learn ancient greek to the point where you can read texts roughly as smoothly as you can in your native language, or close? or do you always have to puzzle out sentences with a dictionary?

[Anonymous No.21226273]

>>21226210
If you become an expert in a particular type of literature, you can pick up a book in that genre you've never read and read it without issue, only puzzling over words that occur nowhere else.

[Anonymous No.21226277]

>>21226210
You can get to the point you can read it as quickly as any other L2 learnt in adulthood. A page every few minutes is very achievable. By the time you reach this point though you’ve already read half the major corpus.

[Anonymous No.21226387]

>>21226022
Did you read the New Testament?

[Anonymous No.21226420]

>>21223605
Is there a good English-Ancient Greek translator anywhere? I use google translate for latin but I'm guessing that doesn't work for ancient greek?

[Anonymous No.21226444]

>>21226420
no
I guess it's because it's too niche and much if not all ancient Greek has been properly translated, while with Latin there's maybe potential for automatic translation of obscure medieval stuff and whatever is left untranslated from the last ~1000 years

[Anonymous No.21226446]

>>21226273
>>21226277
makes sense, thanks.

[Anonymous No.21226451]

>>21226420
> I use google translate for latin
It's dogshit for Latin as well, even though not as dogshit as it used to be.

[Anonymous No.21226491]

>>21226451
>even though not as dogshit as it used to be.
It used to be horrendous, but it's really improved a lot for simple and short sentences. It still doesn't know how to differentiate similarly spelled forms with different meanings. And certain verb tenses in the subjunctive it just doesn't recognize at all or differentiate from the future.

[Anonymous No.21226599]

capitulum sextum, puerios. it's starting to get real

[Anonymous No.21226616]

>>21226599
>capitulum sextum
>it's starting to get real
You haven't even hit any of the difficult chapters yet. Give me a progress report after 8 or 13.

[Anonymous No.21226772]

I want to learn how to understand basic Egyptian heirloglythics, specifically in their handwritten form (more elegant than hieratic but not the incredibly intricate carved varient) that I can use for caligraphy with my reed pen and ink. What books or videos should I look into?

[Anonymous No.21226774]

>>21226772
I heard the Assimil course is good, but you'll need to know some French.

[Anonymous No.21226797]

>>21226774
I am in the middle of using Assimil for hieroglyphs and grec ancien to back it up, for >21226772

I would say it’s very good, but Egyptian grammar by gardener is a necessary second resource. There’s almost nothing for non-Hieroglyphic study, especially hieratic. The literature just doesn’t exist for it. Best to just learn hieroglyphs and then look at websites online that have lookups for hieroglyphs to hieratic.

It’s not that hard of a language btw, assuming you’re doing middle Egyptian, and it’s rather rewarding. You think differently when you read hieroglyphs.

[Anonymous No.21226806]

>>21226797
> It’s not that hard of a language btw
Did you learn other classical languages you can compare it too?

[Anonymous No.21226807]

>>21226774
>>21226797
I'm not asking for a comprehensive guide, just something small to begin with.

[Anonymous No.21226817]

>>21226807
Why are you being rude, he's trying to help you?

[Anonymous No.21226822]

>>21226807
Assimil would be the one then. But if you really want to go deep then Gardiner is the best source there is. There’s also A Middle Egyptian Reader and Readings In Middle Egyptian. Assimil is more like a fun immersion into middle Egyptian starting from the basics and going deep by the end. I haven’t finished it yet but I’m getting the sense the finishing the book means you can go to Egypt and read the majority of inscriptions on the walls in tombs and such.
>>21226806
Greek. The grammar is simpler imo, a lot of the difficulty is just the writing system and learning a new vocabulary. I also studied Georgian including old Georgian which makes almost any other language look retardedly easy.

It’s related distantly to Hebrew and Arabic but neither of those will help you. Canaanite and Old Egyptian were already much further apart than German and Hindi are today back when the Middle Kingdom was kicking.

[Anonymous No.21226833]

>>21226822
I feel like Greek, then Coptic, then Middle Egyptian would be the smoothest transition. Am I wrong?

[Anonymous No.21226857]

>>21226833
I don’t know Coptic, I assume it has a bunch of Greek words in there modified to fit the Egyptian phonology. It’s not like Coptic is a fusion language, it’s 90% similar to middle Egyptian and only has some Greek loans. It’s kind of like saying you want to jump from English to Finnish because it has a bunch of technological and scientific loan words, and then to proto Uralic. That first jump would be huge and the second jump much smaller.

[Anonymous No.21226864]

>>21226857
Is there a language to learn before Coptic that is better for an English speaker besides Greek? Do you think that Biblical Hebrew would be better?

[Anonymous No.21226881]

>>21226864
If you want to learn Egyptian I would just learn Egyptian because even the difference between Hebrew and Egyptian is so large that you won’t get much help from it other than the root system being vaguely similar (though Egyptian roots are often one or two consonants and Hebrew iirc is three. They’re also hard to find sound correspondences to). Hebrew vs Arabic however is comparatively close and you could learn both from the other first. Egyptian simply really is its own thing even though it has a bunch of Greek words in its final Coptic phase, and is extremely distinctly related to the Semitic and Berber languages (most estimates, again, say that Proto Indo European is as old to us as the proto language from which Egyptian and Hebrew derive was to them back during the Middle Kingdom.). It has relatives but none of them are useful ones if that makes sense.

Greek on the other hand will help a good deal with Latin and Old Armenian if that’s your thing.

[Anonymous No.21226893]

>>21226857
> It’s not like Coptic is a fusion language, it’s 90% similar to middle Egyptian
Makes me wonder how >>21226797 (you?) description of Middle Egyptian as
> not that hard of a language

I heard students who previously learned Greek were routinely getting wrecked by Coptic.

[Anonymous No.21226894]

>>21226881
I want to learn them all. This is my insane plan:
Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic, Arabic.

[Anonymous No.21226895]

>>21226822
could you please recommend resources for old georgian, the more comprehensive the better?

[Anonymous No.21226902]

>>21226895
I've recommended this before, but you guys need to learn to be a little more resourceful. I always look at the wikipedia, don't read any of the text and just scroll to the bottom of the page for the cited works in the bibliography.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Georgian#Cited_works

[Anonymous No.21226931]

Anons, I'm pursuing a career in classics, and I know that the field is pretty pozzed, so I'm thinking about picking up a 3rd language besides Latin and Greek so that I can "elevate non-Eurocentric voices in the classics" or something like that and make myself more appealing to liberal faculties. What would be a good choice?

Biblical Hebrew seems like not a bad idea since there are ocassionally Hebrew departments in universities, and the Bible would be at least one interesting thing to read.
It seems like some of you are learning Coptic, which also was pretty important to the ancient world and definitely intertwined with Greek. Is there a good corpus of literature for it?
Something about Hittite is attractive to me in some way, but I have no idea why. It's Indo-European, which is maybe a plus as far as learning. Same question, does it have a corpus of interesting stuff?

My interests in Greek/Latin are primarily in didactic and pastoral poetry, if that matters.

Anything to help me choose between these (or another one) would be helpful, and maybe if people could share what made them pick their third language, that would be cool.

Salvete anones

[Anonymous No.21226963]

>>21226931
Do Sanskrit.

[Anonymous No.21226995]

>>21226931
> Coptic, which also was pretty important to the ancient world
Was it? I thought Nag Hammadi was the only reason people care, apart from linguists.

[Anonymous No.21227025]

>>21226931
>"elevate non-Eurocentric voices in the classics"
>liberal faculties
so presumably you live in America?
>I'm pursuing a career in classics
how? presumably you're enrolled in a program or are about to be or are about to apply, but do you are you trying to/ultimately wish to get a PhD?

[Anonymous No.21227052]

>>21226893
Yeah both those posts are mine

Again both Greek and Egyptian are relatively easy to me because I also reckoned with modern and old Georgian and dabbled with other Caucasian languages that would make your brain rot instantly when you see how hard to conjugations are. Greek is overrated in how hard it is, people get wrecked by the cases and then by things like aorist. The vocabulary is a bigger issue in Coptic and Egyptian in general, but the grammar is really not that bad at all. And a lot of the actual literature we have in Egyptian is going to be in a standard historic or biblical register of speaking that precludes a lot of weird grammatical constructions. Compare that to Greek which has a lot of surviving poetry, philosophy, rhetoric, history, etc for literature. Many more registers of speech. There’s not exactly much in the way of Egyptian lyrical poetry that’ll fuck a student up, for example.

>>21226895
Just learn Georgian first and then do what the other reply said. Old Georgian isn’t that old compared to Egyptian, so if you can do Georgian you can do a lot of old Georgian with supplemental study. It’s like very early Middle English vs English today. The knight in panther’s skin is fully readable by modern Georgians and that’s hundreds of years old.

[Anonymous No.21227058]

I don't want to discourage someone from studying one of the less popular languages, but man...

[Anonymous No.21227062]

>>21227058
What exactly is hard about this? Greek grammar is a lot worse.

[Anonymous No.21227072]

>>21227052
>Just learn Georgian first and then do what the other reply said. Old Georgian isn’t that old compared to Egyptian, so if you can do Georgian you can do a lot of old Georgian with supplemental study. It’s like very early Middle English vs English today.
I know it somewhat. Yeah, I think that is a good comparison.

[Anonymous No.21227077]

>>21227062
>>21227058
To add to my statement that Greek is worse. Take a look at how these are formed. The particles for each piece of the tense are basically additive so you can easily tell what components of tense and mood are conveyed almost completely logically. Greek has a lot of illogical constructions by comparison.

You’re lucky you’re not trying to learn something highly agglutinative if something like this looks hard.

[Anonymous No.21227086]

>>21227077
And I’ll reply to myself one last time since it’s worth mentioning that this is even easier in middle Egyptian. Each of those particles for tense and mood are basically a single hieroglyph so you see a verb root and then a bunch of symbols that tell you how it’s being conjugated in a logical manner. It’s actually really simple and elegant in a way that I wish more languages were.

[Anonymous No.21227122]

>>21227077
>>21227086
Thanks for the insight. The table looked brutal to me because it only contained tenses and would blow up when multiplying it by person, gender, and voice (whichever of these concepts Coptic makes uses).
But if you say Greek is worse, I'll take your word for it.

[Anonymous No.21227125]

>>21226210
Of course, it's simply another language just like any other one, the only added obstacle is not having millions of native speakers to practice it with.

[Anonymous No.21227136]

>>21227025
>>"elevate non-Eurocentric voices in the classics"
>>liberal faculties
>so presumably you live in America?
Could be UK Unis too desu.
I just tried applying for a GCHQ internship and the website literally said "this position is for BAME only". Fuck me I guess.
Anyway, I'd definitely shill for Sanskrit as a non Euro classic.

[Anonymous No.21227146]

>>21227136
Sanskrit, Old/Middle Chinese, Ge’ez, Classical Arabic, Old Tamil, Old Avestan or Old Persian are all great with lots of literature.

For cool languages with less literature but still fun for dabbling, Egyptian (as I posted before is really fun) and Sumerian are awesome.

[Anonymous No.21227203]

>>21226894
For me? It's Latin, Spanish, French, Russian, Japanese, Dutch.

Some rudimentary Chinese if it looks like war is imminent and Greek if I'm 70 years old and have nothing better to do.

[Anonymous No.21227208]

>>21227136
>"this position is for BAME only"
gotta love diversity quotas and/or general libtardness/leftism

[Anonymous No.21227210]

>>21227203
>It's Latin, Spanish,
Pick up Spanish For Reading. You can jump into it immediately even if you are only half through your Latin textbook.

[Anonymous No.21227377]

>>21227025
Yeah, I'm American. I've had the privilege of knowing some excellent professors who truly believe in the beauty and value of classics, but I know that's less common. Are non-Anglophone countries really less liberal aa far as this stuff goes? I can't imagine France or Germany are any better.

I do want to do a PhD. Haven't applied yet, but that's one reason I'm interested in a third language now. The sooner I get on it, the better I'll be at it when it comes time to apply.

>>21226995
I suppose I actually don't know much about Coptic specifically, but there was huge cultural exchange going on between Egypt and Greece and later Rome. Early Greek statuary seems heavily based on Egyptian models, and Nilotic scenes were very popular in Roman visual art. Coptic at least seems more sensible to me than, say, Sanskrit, since Egypt coexisted with Greece and Rome in the same part of the world.

[Anonymous No.21227444]

>>21227377
Coptic is cool but middle Egyptian is probably the more important one. A lot of Coptic literature either rotted away on papyrus or was supplanted by Greek and later Arabic material. Almost any primary source you want of history in that region is going to be either in middle Egyptian, of which a lot of what we have are historical accounts (it’s how we know about the Bronze Age collapse first hand, for example), Babylonian languages, and to a much smaller extent Sumerian and Elamite (since they were barely connected to the Mediterranean greater culture). Again, I do not know Coptic, but if you know Greek and middle Egyptian, I’d like to think you get demotic and Coptic mostly for free.

[Anonymous No.21227445]

>>21227377
>are non-Anglophone countries really less liberal as far as this stuff goes? I can't imagine France or Germany are any better.
no idea, I'm American too. I only asked so I could gauge whether I had anything to add.
>I do want to do a PhD. Haven't applied yet
I see. I don't know when you intend to apply, but from what I've seen colleges typically like that you have some formal documentation (typically through your transcripts in previous schools) of your language ability. so, if you plan to get into a college that teaches Greek, Latin, and some other non "eurocentric" classical language you will most likely have to follow that tradition. the best thing to do though would be to talk to the programs you're thinking about applying to and ask what their requirements for admissions are and how lenient they are with them (especially about formal "proof" of competency in language). how long before you plan on applying to programs?

[Anonymous No.21227447]

>>21226931
You're interested in adding a third language for diversity points, not because you have a particularly strong interest or want to specialize in that language. That would mean you either don't use it much or only teach it to undergrads.
>Hebrew
The problem with Hebrew is that there is a huge field devoted to its study. It isn't a diversity language either. Now, Arabic, that might earn you some points, but there is no Classical overlap.
>Coptic
Coptic might have some diversity appeal, and it does have Classical overlap, but I'm not sold on this having massive appeal. Coptic does have plenty to read, but it's mostly Christian.
>Hittite
Learning any very extinct Indo-European language will not give you diversity points. I don't think it has a very large corpus.
>Other anon's suggestion: Sanskrit
Bingo. This would be my top pick for someone interested in Classics who wants to add a third language he doesn't want to specialize in. Diversity points + huge corpus. I imagine us white folks, assuming you're white, will be in trouble after the Indians will have been in this country long enough. Instead of becoming convenience store owners or doctors, many will turn to Classics, specifically Indian classics. Then, white people won't be allowed to say anything because POC voices need to be elevated.

[Anonymous No.21227458]

>>21227444
*primary literature before the Greeks and phonecians got their shit together, I mean. And even then the Phoenicians don’t have a lot of surviving work, the Hebrew dialect of Canaanite (kek, I always love saying that, never gets old) is most of it and much of it is biblical material that often isn’t used for historical philological purposes. E.g. literature about the Babylonian exile by the Babylonians is preferred to anything Hebrew from what I can tell.

Middle Egyptian is really wonderful in that sense. It’s the oldest record of the Mediterranean and you get to see a lot of history up to 1500 years earlier by learning it.

[Anonymous No.21227476]

>>21227447
Sanskrit may be seen more in the coming decades in the same way as Latin or Greek. The Indian state is pushing for Hindu dindu we wuz ramaz shit so it may be seen no different from those other two in time as India becomes more and more a part of the UK, or vice versa.

A classical Dravidian language, one of the Buddhic holy languages, Tibetan are all cool picks too. Again, ge’ez is cool, middle Egyptian is the actually useful elder form of Coptic (and a great niche given Egyptology was more of a thing a century ago). Classical Japanese and Chinese are obvious options too, but you’ll be contending with natives in the modern tongue who basically can speed run it while you take a decade to reach them. Old Persian/Avestan remains a beautiful and easy to learn language with incredible literature

[Anonymous No.21227527]

since there's been some discussion on Sanskrit, for anyone who's studied it, what would you recommend for someone wanting to get into it? and what are some of the easier authentic texts? if it helps, I am particularly interested in Buddhism, but generally enjoy fiction as well regardless of language

[Anonymous No.21227539]

>>21227445
That's what I did with Greek. Basically taught myself the first year and then tested into an upper-level class where I could get some documentation. Saved a lot of money and time that way. I haven't done a master's yet so I'm probably a ways off from a PhD.

>>21227458
Is there any great reason people usually seem to recommend learning Coptic first before Middle Egyptian?

>>21227447
I would think Hebrew has some diversity appeal. Semitic people perpetually ruled by other empires year after seems like a prime candidate. Or do you mean it doesn't have diversity appeal because there's already a large field devoted to it?

I had thought about Sanskrit, but the lack of any classical overlap with the part of the world I'm already familiar with is a huge downside for me desu. A big part of learning a language, especially with self-study, is motivation, and Sanskrit doesn't excite me in the way others do. I'll look into it more though since you and the other guys raise good points.

[Anonymous No.21227556]

>>21227210
Thank you anon.

[Anonymous No.21227601]

>>21227527
>I am particularly interested in Buddhism,
Isn't that stuff written in Pali? I've seen people in this thread say Pali is basically like the Koine of Sanskrit, but idk if that's horseshit or what.

[Anonymous No.21227632]

>>21227601
>Isn't that stuff written in Pali?
I guess I just assumed there was a lot of both, since I know there are doublets like 'sutra' and 'sutta', but from the little research I've done it looks like most of the generally considered canonical texts were in fact written in Pali

[Anonymous No.21227709]

>>21227632
I'm pretty sure the Tibetan, Sanskrit, and Chinese Buddhist texts are mostly translations of stuff originally written in Pali. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

[Anonymous No.21227967]

>>21224715
But this is a reconstruction too. If you want something that's not Ecclesiastical or reconstructed, there's a lot of other traditional pronunciations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_regional_pronunciation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin

[Anonymous No.21227972]

>>21226277
>You can get to the point you can read it as quickly as any other L2 learnt in adulthood. A page every few minutes is very achievable.
I can definitely read more than a page every few minutes in my L2. If you're even remotely fluent, you'll be able to.

[Anonymous No.21227975]

>>21223849
was cleo a whore?

[Anonymous No.21227977]

>>21226833
I've heard of some people who, rather than learning the Egyptological pronunciation (which is not even a plausible guess at how it might been spoken at some point, it just reads the semivowels as vowels and fills in 'e' as needed), learn Coptic first and then learn to pronounce older stages as if they were Coptic- like how Chinese speakers read Classical Chinese in their own dialect.

[Anonymous No.21227992]

>>21226931
You could learn Classical Chinese.

[Anonymous No.21228110]

>>21226115
adsum

[Anonymous No.21228118]

>>21227539
> Is there any great reason people usually seem to recommend learning Coptic first before Middle Egyptian?

I’ve never heard of this but I’m not doing this as part of academia. I just say learn middle Egyptian if you want to learn middle Egyptian. Simple as that. You can always go forward in time if you want Coptic too. If you want Coptic only then just learn that. You’ll be missing out on hieroglyphs though which to me is a more beautiful system of writing than Chinese.

[Anonymous No.21228123]

>>21227972
I mean I can read the same speed in French and English and French I gained reading fluency only in adulthood. But for an ancient language you’re not going to be skimming Plato at native speed unless you’ve read the entirety of the Ancient Greek corpus at least once through. There’s simply not nearly enough input material like you have in living languages to get to that level of competency. Even famous philologists in the 18-19th centuries weren’t reading and writing attic Greek at the speed of their acquired living languages.

[Anonymous No.21228261]

Realistically, how many people on earth are competent in Latin? (fluent reading, picking up words from context, can have a functional conversation)
It's got to be less than ten thousand.

[Anonymous No.21228328]

>>21228123
I think there might be for Latin when you include the full corpus (not only from the classical period) but I agree there are plenty of ancient languages for which there aren't.

[Anonymous No.21228443]

>>21228123
>Even famous philologists in the 18-19th centuries weren’t reading and writing attic Greek at the speed of their acquired living languages
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/a-neuroscientist-explores-the-sanskrit-effect/

Just memorize by heart either the Aesop's fables, or the Psalms, and you'll be fine.

[Anonymous No.21228521]

>>21228443

surely memorize the Iliad or something

[Anonymous No.21228539]

>>21227447
>because POC voices need to be elevated.
You know where you will end up.....

[Anonymous No.21228594]

>>21228539
That is not my position. That is the direction things are going. Watch the SCS 2019 meeting. When I get around to it, I link some articles surrounding the incident. Academia is so fucked up.
You should have read the conversation more carefully before replying. Even reading my comment in its entirety would have helped. Leftists aren't supposed to be recommending languages to people so that they can score diversity points, as I had put it. According to a leftist, a straight white male is not supposed to be gaming the system. Rather, he should be elevating POC voices and exploring underrepresented fields. If you read the conversation, you would have seen that I was helping the anon make himself look more favorable to the leftists who will be reading his application.

[Anonymous No.21228601]

>>21228521
I memorized 2/3 of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" in German, and 1/3 of Beowulf.

[Anonymous No.21228604]

>>21228261
>can have a functional conversation)
This has no relevance to competency in a dead language. Living Latin people are, by and large, retarded.

[Anonymous No.21228612]

>>21227539
>I would think Hebrew has some diversity appeal.
Nope. A large part of academia dislikes Jews. Another large part of academia is Jewish itself. Therefore, the people you can impress is not as large as it would seem. Plus, as you and I both mentioned earlier, there is a large field devoted to Hebrew.
>Sanskrit
If it doesn't interest you, definitely don't study it. It just seems to me to be a diversity boon that Classicists reach for.
>Addendum
From personal experience, I don't think additional language experience is very helpful for getting into graduate school. As far as languages are concerned, it is my belief that Classics programs only care about Greek and Latin. In terms of diversity, they want you to be a woman or minority. If you're to make it as a white male, you have to list gender studies as a research interest.

[Anonymous No.21228649]

>>21228604
>>21228612
have sex

[Anonymous No.21228970]

>>21228649
All right, bend over, pants off.

[Anonymous No.21229059]

> Dominus servōs malōs baculō verberat
why don't we need a coom baculo here?

[Anonymous No.21229063]

>>21229059
"Baculō" is in the (instrumental) ablative, so you don't need any preposition.

[Anonymous No.21229111]

>>21229059
"cum baculo" would imoly that baculus is a sentient subject, like dominus, and they both take turns at punching servos malos with some unspecified instrument.

[Anonymous No.21229115]

>>21229111
>would imPly
typo, fix

[Anonymous No.21229246]

>>21224772
Yeah better if it were her in some cringe tiktok clip instead

[Anonymous No.21229299]

>>21227709
Too me it looks like the complication and controversy that exists with biblical textual research in that the readings of different manuscripts appear to have varying degrees of credibility to them.

[Anonymous No.21229380]

>>21227539
>lack of any classical overlap with the part of the world I'm already familiar with
aren't there some deep-lore tier connections between like the rgveda and other indo-european epic traditions

[Anonymous No.21229429]

>>21226894
Incredibly based.

[Anonymous No.21229507]

>>21229429
I forget to mention Sanskrit and the beautiful Mayan glyphs

[Anonymous No.21230241]

>>21228328
Fair enough, new Latin is probably the exception back then. A lot of famous works from 1400-1700 were in Latin and not the native language. I doubt they spoke it at all, but I’m sure they were reading and writing fluently. But they definitely weren’t doing Greek at that speed unless they were native Greek.

[Anonymous No.21230291]

>>21227975
No, but she was for Marc.

[Anonymous No.21230388]

>>21230241
Why would they not be speaking Latin in the scholarly circles they ran in when knowing Latin was just as much the mark of a learned man as the black robe?

[Anonymous No.21230413]

I counted the number of rules roughly you need to know in order to read Ancient Greek well around 240 syntax rules

[Anonymous No.21230443]

>>21229059
>baculo
ablative of means (i.e. "with a/the stick/rod/staff"). cases by themselves, i.e., without prepositions, is common in classical Latin and becomes less of a thing coming into the medieval period. if you read petronius or apuleius for instance you see a lot more prepositions where you otherwise just see nouns and adjectives/participles in a certain case

[Anonymous No.21230512]

>>21230388
Is there any indication or proof they did? All accounts of it I’ve heard was that it was learned as a written register and people would regularly learn multiple living languages, often French and German and Italian, to communicate in person.

[Anonymous No.21230521]

>>21230512
Because what you said makes no sense; why learn a language for the sole purpose of communicating with people who already speak a language you also know?

[Anonymous No.21230548]

>>21230521
Don’t ask me, ask them. Latin was used as a cross lingual written language. In daily life they didn’t speak Latin, at least for the most part.

[Anonymous No.21230715]

I started reading a latin text and it began with the postpositive "igitur."
Are textbooks all lies?

[Anonymous No.21230732]

>>21230715
> While it is a postpositive conjunction, it is attested in the Vulgate to start a sentence.

[Anonymous No.21230743]

>>21230715
You’ll do better learning languages if you just roll with the punches and build a subconscious set of heuristics than learn a set branch condition of rules. Latin in particular

[Anonymous No.21230748]

>>21230743
And to clarify what I mean by that. It’s easier to encounter the optative mood over and over and then look it up and learn how it’s used in context while reading than to study it intensely before picking up reading material. That’s my opinion at least.

[Anonymous No.21230758]

>>21228601
What technique did you use to memorize it?

[Anonymous No.21230761]

>>21228604
You know spoken Latin isn't a new thing, right? It existed even after it wasn't spoken natively, even if it was more often written.
>>21230241
I don't see why being native Greek would mean they could- Ancient Greek is still a dead language, even if it's related to Modern Greek. By that logic, only native Romance speakers could manage fluent Latin.

[Anonymous No.21230817]

>>21230761
> I don't see why being native Greek would mean they could- Ancient Greek is still a dead language, even if it's related to Modern Greek. By that logic, only native Romance speakers could manage fluent Latin.

Well obviously you don’t know anything about Greek which is fine, but Greek is very different than Latin. While Koine was in common use later until late Byzantine times, a lot of the literature was written as close to attic as possible. And then since independence they’ve been told to write in a form of Greek that’s halfway between attic and modern:

> Katharevousa has many words and word formations taken straight from Ancient Greek, but otherwise uses the same syntax and grammar as Demotic (or Modern) Greek. It was used for formal and official purposes up until 1976, when Demotic Greek was made the official language.

The gulf between Katharevousa and the Greek of Plato wasn’t that great. It would require very little effort on their part to relearn the older style case endings, the dropped case(s), the dual person (rare enough in attic Greek anyways), which is a low bar. Modern and Katharevousa Greek both are still heavily cased. Katharevousa would be more like comparing classical to Vulgar Latin, not Spanish to Classical Latin.

[Anonymous No.21230828]

>>21230817
>>21230817
And to add to my post (I wish I could edit on 4chan, whenever I actually post about something serious I always need to keep adding info):

A lot of Greeks today who know demotic only, learn some Ancient Greek in school, and most say they can years later stumble through it with only some additional effort. A Spanish speaker would have to work much harder to do that with Latin. The grammar has diverged so much that it’d take sincere study and upkeep to do what the Greeks even now can do much easier. And Greeks during the 19th and 18th centuries would have had it even easier

[Anonymous No.21230839]

Linguistics degree here! Comprehensible input doesn't mean exclusively input. That's a lazy YouTube guru meme from people who want you subscribing to them longer and therefore not learning the language. Comprehensible input means students take in as much input as possible, doing anything necessary to make it comprehensible. What matters according to this hypothesis is quantity of messages received, and quantity understood. That's why the comprehensible input classrooms you see from Paideia Institute or such always have visual aids or even vocabulary keys! Pharr and Steadman editions are excellent for the intermediate stage for this reason. They are probably more important to success than one's choice of first textbook. More on this later.
In addition, children can accurately pick up on rules of grammar and phonology after long exposure, but adults generally can't. Even if they can, having the rule taught explicitly saves time and effort and builds valuable scaffolding for the input! This is why Lingua Latina is almost never used on its own without such aids by any serious teacher, though it is an excellent book.
Finally, the beginner stage is important, but less critical for adult learners than one might think. Adult learners progress through beginner stages faster than children, especially if they're smart! Adult retention is generally horrible, however. The best predictor of success is duration of deep engagement. In human language, this means you should be reading more, not arguing here! This goes for all types of language proficiency, not just oral. I hope this was helpful.

[Anonymous No.21230848]

>>21230839
>That's a lazy YouTube guru meme from people who want you subscribing to them longer and therefore not learning the language.
These dorks don't want to hear that so you are wasting your time. They will just call you obsessed instead of listening to the arguments that you are making or address any of your points.
>In addition, children can accurately pick up on rules of grammar and phonology after long exposure, but adults generally can't.
I can already hear the seething.
>In addition, children can accurately pick up on rules of grammar and phonology after long exposure, but adults generally can't.
Oh boy....

[Anonymous No.21230849]

>>21230839
>That's a lazy YouTube guru meme from people who want you subscribing to them longer and therefore not learning the language
That's such a stupid argument I disregarded the rest of your post. For youtubers a sub gained is a sub gained, you don't fucking pay monthly to be subscribed to a youtube channel

[Anonymous No.21230851]

>>21230849
>I disregarded the rest of your post
KEK I TOLD YOU. The honor guard has arrived to defend the honor of their god.

[Anonymous No.21230856]

>>21230851
who are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.21230862]

>>21230849
This is such an emotional midwit reaction. Obviously you never bothered to read an academic paper in your life. People often praise self-education, but this is what you end up: A bunch of 14 year olds raised on Wikipedia and YouTube who have no idea how to do research, write a bibliography, or intentionally stress test their own ideas against the opposing side. Just dismiss people who don't fit the insular narrative.

[Anonymous No.21230863]

>>21230848
Notice that I said "generally." Most people can't derive a general formula from a solved math problem either. But even if they are smart and/or mathematically experienced enough to do so, it would be foolish not to state it explicitly, if only to verify it.

>>21230849
Whether or not they know what they're doing, that is what they are doing! YouTube does not reward rigor. It rewards continued engagement with aspirational content.

[Anonymous No.21230865]

>>21230863
>Notice that I said "generally." Most people can't derive a general formula from a solved math problem either. But even if they are smart and/or mathematically experienced enough to do so, it would be foolish not to state it explicitly, if only to verify it.
I was agreeing with you, but telling you that you are wasting your time. I have no quarrel with anything you side. It's all mainstream linguistic knowledge.

[Anonymous No.21230867]

>>21230862
ok so how does a youtuber grift people by tricking them in to failing to learn a language so they 'stay subscribed longer', as if that's even how youtube works? And why should I even bother to read the words of someone who spouts such a ridiculous statement as if it's a deep insight? You're just trying to stir up another stupid argument about nothing.

[Anonymous No.21230874]

>>21230865
My apologies, I meant to reply to >>21230849. I must have misclicked. I know I'm wasting my time, but I was scrolling through this thread in between reading my Steadman edition of Herodotus right after work and the amount of misconceptions really bothered me. I hope someone learns something from it!

>>21230867
Whether or not they know what they're doing, that is the effect! No YouTuber of which I know makes content for people who have already learned any classical language to a high-intermediate level. Paideia Institute's channel is an exception, but it would be foolish to call an academic institution a "YouTuber."

[Anonymous No.21230879]

>>21230874
Ah so, because most of the tiny handful of people generating Latin content is aimed at beginners, it's therefore bad?

[Anonymous No.21230887]

>>21230867
>ok so how does a youtuber grift people by tricking them in to failing to learn a language so they 'stay subscribed longer', as if that's even how youtube works?
Either you are replying to the wrong person or you didn't read my post. I'm not the original guy. You are arguing against his points. I was arguing against your reaction.
>And why should I even bother to read the words of someone who spouts such a ridiculous statement as if it's a deep insight?
It wasn't a ridiculous statement. Again, you have no idea how to read anything that you don't already agree with. Pretty pathetic. Doesn't make you smart. A smart person can read an opposing argument and find it interesting that someone came away with a different conclusion. You just chalk it up to the other person being a retard that should be ignored. This is like /pol/ level 'research'.
>You're just trying to stir up another stupid argument about nothing.
Not really, but ok. You're the one that replied by calling his point stupid and saying you aren't reading it. That's starting an argument. You offered nothing to the conversation. I called your reaction emotional and it was. There was nothing constructive there. I hope you spend less time on this site and relearn how to learn.

[Anonymous No.21230903]

>>21230887
I'm on 4chan, of course I'm going to knee jerk disregard anything I can see is retarded, and then call you a stupid faggot for saying it.

[Anonymous No.21230920]

>>21230879
Not really! I think beginner-facing content is very important for any given language. It's a good thing if more people are given a chance to become passionate about classical languages!
The issue is that it's not obvious to me that any of this content is educational. Of what is educational, I worry that it mostly/exclusively reaches people who won't stick with these languages anyway. And it's very concerning to me that very little of said content points to what one can actually expect to do with these languages, which is to read the classics.
Someone like Jackson Crawford, who focuses more on classics than on classical languages but occasionally brings in a linguistics angle, is probably therefore doing much more for deep (ie, continued past two months) engagement with these languages than some others.

>>21230839
Let me also add that grammar-translation is totally outmoded, simply because it results in less exposure. One should know grammar rules, but one should be making a conscious effort to think in one's target language as much as possible.
The ideal language textbook is, in my opinion, pretty close to Al-Kitaab fii Ta'allum al-'Arabiyya. It goes slower than I'd personally like (but just the right speed for most US classrooms,) but does an excellent job of flooding students with input for absolutely everything they learn while building up writing, reading, and speaking confidence all at once. Sadly, it's not really suited for individual use, and there is no equivalent for any other language of which I know.
Under this set of conditions, I recommend clawing your way up from beginner to low-intermediate as fast as possible, by any means available, ideally multiple at once. LLPSI plus any given grammar you can get your hands on should be fine! Then just read all day, and stick with it.
Okay, that's it! I'll waste no more time here, since I have work to do. I hope this all helps someone!

[Anonymous No.21230997]

>>21230758
memory palace, method of loci - for key words in each line

In case of Zarathustra, I additionally divided the text into segments of ~5 lines per chapter.
Since the text itself mimics the Biblical poetry style, so it kinda has an accentual rhythm of ~3-5 semantic chunks per line and it goes chiastic, i.e. there is repetition of the same phrases in a slightly altered sequence in the same chapter, making it easier to remember.
Sometimes the text goes formulaic, re-utilizing the same lines or phrases from chapter to chapter.
And sometimes the text goes for alliteration, so it is easy to additionally recall that there are a lot of "sh", "g" , etc. sounds per specific line. Or there may be a repetitive or similar sounding word per each line in a sequence of several lines.

Given enough diligence and spare time, it approximately takes 1-2 days per chapter of 30-40 lines.

[Anonymous No.21231050]

>>21230413
When learning Greek, it felt like there were a lot of rules, things to learn, more than any other language, but now that I know Greek, it isn't so bad. 240 seems like a strange number. In some ways it feels like a lot, and in others, it feels very small.

[Anonymous No.21231134]

>>21230413
I'm curious about how you calculated this.

[Anonymous No.21231460]

>>21228521
https://apnews.com/article/cfb3aac8bc852c3e85204fcdde7a2ae9
>Frenchman memorized entire Iliad in 16 years
>Did he gain deep insights into ancient Greek thought by memorizing the text?
>There was a hushed pause.
>″Not really,″ he said. ″I wish I had.″

[Anonymous No.21231463]

Is anyone interested in maybe doing a group study for Egyptian. I'm not sure if we should start with coptic but I'm on a bit of an egypt kick and would like to study with others. Maybe we could do our practice and send images of what we've written to the thread.

[Anonymous No.21231680]

>>21226210
yes and if you are serious about it you should dedicate 2 years on modern greek.Many more sources to practise with.if you get competent then koine greek becomes a piece of cake

[Anonymous No.21231810]

>>21230920
>!
>!
>!
you write like a faggot, though I generally agree with what you say

[Anonymous No.21231994]

Non nobus ambulara est tu minisculus quoque dea amore fecit probonus exitarunt volo secundao polibinantaribus que sine gravitatis inter pueli dominati et ques dicit.

[Anonymous No.21232152]

>>21231810
nta but

According to "The Secret Life of Pronouns. What Our Words Say About Us" (2011), the prevalence of "I" pronouns in text indicates with high probability that you spoke with a woman.

[Anonymous No.21232156]

>>21232152
I use I all the time and I'm a man. I think it's more associated with narcissism than anything else

[Anonymous No.21232390]

>>21231463
>Is anyone interested in maybe doing a group study for Egyptian.
no

[Anonymous No.21232586]

Donatus' book for teaching Latin

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/don.html

[Anonymous No.21232615]

>>21231810
>>21232152
>>21232156
>!
>I
lasa (Latin alphabet second alphabet) detected

[Anonymous No.21232826]

>>21226881
>though Egyptian roots are often one or two consonants and Hebrew iirc is three
I don't know how many consonants Egyptian has, but this means that there are only a couple hundred words? Is that accurate?

[Anonymous No.21232976]

dad just said medieval philosophy was stolen from the greeks and the has catholic church contributed nothing of value to history or society

[Anonymous No.21232994]

>>21232976
based

[Anonymous No.21233044]

>>21232976
And this makes you feel how?

[Anonymous No.21233090]

>>21233044
ashamed to be his progeny

[Anonymous No.21233119]

>>21233090
Are you one of those Christian nationalists

[Anonymous No.21233121]

>>21233119
I’m an atheist but I tremendously admire and respect the medieval church and its contributions to european and world society

[Anonymous No.21233126]

>>21233121
Well this is a language thread on a literature board so unless you actually read anything in a medieval language I don't understand what you are doing here. This sounds more suitable for /his/ or /pol/ depending on how hardcore you wanna take it.

[Anonymous No.21233134]

>>21233126
The medieval church is preeminently relevant to /clg/, cry about it.

[Anonymous No.21233138]

>>21233134
>cry about it.
I'm not crying and you are not talking about languages. You are welcome to stay if you have something interesting to say about Medieval French or Old Norse etc. But if you are just here to larp as a trad cath templar, like I said they already do that on /his/ and /pol/ quite often and you shouldn't have trouble finding a table for yourself and your boyfriend.

[Anonymous No.21233151]

>>21233138
you’ve completely misread me if you think I’m a tradcath, kek. and classics has never been about just the languages.
>you are welcome to stay
nigger I’ve been here for years

[Anonymous No.21233158]

>>21233151
>classics has never been about just the languages.
The thread is not called "classics general". It's called "classical language general". Go cope somewhere else monolingual amerimutt chud.

[Anonymous No.21233161]

>>21233151
Can you go back to one of the containment threads, please?
The teaching methodology discussions are bad enough, but at least there's somewhat on-topic.

[Anonymous No.21233162]

>>21233158
seriously what is with your fixation on americans, sven

[Anonymous No.21233163]

>>21233162
>sven
Go back

[Anonymous No.21233285]

There's a discord server I used to be on for the 'Daily Mandarin Thread' group, but none of the links I can find online work, even the ones on their site. Does anyone have an invite they can link here?

[Anonymous No.21233400]

What's the smuttiest work written in a classical language? Alternatively, what's the smuttiest work in (You)r classical language?
Era doesn't matter, so medieval stuff counts as well.

The Latin poets, when they're outspoken, are more funny than titillating. Haven't read the Satyricon yet. And Greek is probably close to Latin in that regard.
Biblical Hebrew is a wasteland, unsurprisingly. Can't imagine other AME languages to fare any better.
I thought Literary Chinese would have a shot with The Plum in the Golden Vase, but I see now that it's written in Vernacular.
So I guess it comes down to either Sanskrit winning with the Kama Sutra, or, if one wants to have a narrative, Classical Arabic with 1001 Nights?

[Anonymous No.21233549]

>>21232826
No it’s just that the root is really small and you combine it with other roots and it’s much more additive than Hebrew, where most words are formed by taking three consonants and moving them around and stuffing vowels in them. And often verbs and ideas come from nouns instead. E.g. rnpt (pronounced renpet or ranapet) is the word for year, which has four consonants… but it is used as a single unit as a root. So they’ll add consonants before and after rnpt, stick vowels after, etc. The comparison with Hebrew and Semitic languages in general is very vague since while from a linguistic point of view they are very distantly related (again, English and Hindi are probably closer than Biblical Hebrew and middle Egyptian, at best it’s an equal comparison) and have the same sort of way of handling roots in an abstract sense, this is only a useful observation if you’re trying to reconstruct proto-afro-asiatic, which is probably something that won’t ever happen because nobody can even agree if Egyptian split early or really late, whether middle Egyptian is 5000 years removed from Semitic or over 10000. It’s kind of like ONLY taking English’s use of the word “both” to indicate a dead dual case, and the Sanskrit dual case, and trying to reconstruct what PIE dual looks like. Impossible or almost

[Anonymous No.21233569]

>>21233549
> No it’s just that the root is really small and you combine it with other roots and it’s much more additive than Hebrew, where most words are formed by taking three consonants and moving them around and stuffing vowels in them.
I see, thanks. I'm a little familiar with Hebrew, that's why I was wondering.

[Anonymous No.21233925]

Tried to look at a passage of plato and failed. The translation didn't make sense to me against the original.

ὃ δεξαίμεθ᾽ ἂν ἔχειν οὐ τῶν ἀποβαινόντων ἐφιέμενοι

are there not some which we welcome for their own sakes, and independently of their consequences, as

[Anonymous No.21233979]

>>21233925
τῶν ἀποβαινόντων goes with ἐφιέμενοι, which is negated with οὐ. here ἐφίημι probably means to aim at or desire, so roughly:
>not aiming at/desiring/regarding the results/issues.
btw ἐφιέμενοι is a circumstantial/adverbial participle, whereas ἀποβαινόντων attributive, but you probably knew that. so the whole thing could be translated as:
>which we would accept/prefer to have, not desiring/aiming at/regarding the (their) results/issues.
or in more contemporary idiom:
>which we would accept/prefer to have without regarding the (their) results/issues.

[Anonymous No.21233980]

Is it just me or is ancient literature written in a way that's full of questions with the invitation for a negative answer? What I mean is that it feels on every other page there's some form of
>Were we not the ones...?
>And do you not think...?
>And was it not he who...?

[Anonymous No.21233995]

>>21233979
>their
*its. as the article is often equivalent to the appropriate possessive.

[Anonymous No.21234025]

>>21233979
Yeah thats more what I was finding. I'll probably go to a different book for a more literal translation thanks

[Anonymous No.21234048]

>>21233980
Its just the languages nature. Gaelic does this too for making points in the regular idiom and written one.

[Anonymous No.21234068]

>>21234048
Does it have a name? Be interesting if there's any papers on it.

[Anonymous No.21234544]

Anyone here getting or gifting something /clg/ related for Christmas?

[Anonymous No.21234552]

>>21234025
no problem.

[Anonymous No.21234650]

where should i start with egyptian?

[Anonymous No.21234665]

>>21234650
>>21226797

[Anonymous No.21234890]

>>21234650
From the start

[Anonymous No.21234939]

>it's a recovering the dead under an armistice paragraph

[Anonymous No.21235317]

>be pompeiian pleb
>chisel autistic romantic overture
>get vaporized by mt. vesuvius
>20 centuries later
>stacys are still mocking your incel graffiti

[Anonymous No.21235352]

>>21235317
Wait... Why is she making fun of dactylic meter?

[Anonymous No.21235366]

>>21235352
it's what simps use

[Anonymous No.21235535]

>>21235317
>>21235366
Oh god I'm a stone cold incel and I'm seething over this beautiful woman invading and having opinions about classics (my birthright because I'm male) damn this is so radicalising bros maybe they deserve rape after all.

[Anonymous No.21235852]

>>21235535
>beautiful
maybe for a troon

[Anonymous No.21236299]

me interficere volo

[Anonymous No.21236364]

>>21236299
Based

[Anonymous No.21236857]

सञ्जय उवाच ।
चिकन टिक्का मसालाः ॥

[Anonymous No.21236887]

>>21235317
Does someone know what the edition shown in the video is?

[Anonymous No.21236950]

>>21236299
Fac!

[Anonymous No.21237109]

From Catullus 35:
> Ignosco tibi, Sapphica puella
> musa doctior: est enim venuste
> Magna Caecilio incohata Mater.

Magna Mater is the title of something Caecilius wrote.
But I don't understand what "Caecilio" is in that sentence, grammatically speaking.
"Caecilii" (genitive) would make sense to me, as would "a Caecilio incohata".
Is this Catullus dropping "a" thanks to poetic license? Or "Caecilio" dative after all, in an idiom I don't recognize?

[Anonymous No.21237166]

>>21237109
>dropping "a" thanks to poetic license
either that or maybe a form of possessive dative with 'est'

[Anonymous No.21237180]

>>21237166
Thanks. Weird that none of the commentaries I've seen mention the problem.

[Anonymous No.21237458]

Is anyone here self-taught in latin? What are the best resources to start learning by yourself? I'm looking at the mega but have no clue which textbooks are better or where to start.

[Anonymous No.21237464]

>>21233400
>What's the smuttiest work written in a classical language?
You've said it - Satyricon

[Anonymous No.21237479]

>>21237458
I think most here are, I could've studied it in high school but I went to a technical/professional school and eventually got interested in it at around 26 years of age.
We have this discussion even too often, at the end of the day, any book that keeps you going and motivated and constant will produce results. I used Wheelock + Anki decks + some LLPSI + a centuries old reader for students(Viris Illustribus by Francis Lhomond) before biting into Caesar and continuing from there with real authors

P.S I'm native Italian speaker so that definitely helped a lot with the vocabulary.

[Anonymous No.21237498]

>>21237479
>We have this discussion even too often
Yeah, I guessed it was a frequently asked question, I've just never visited this general. Maybe a flowchart or a list should be in the OP post so that anons don't constantly come here to ask "where do I start"? Anyway, thanks a lot for your advice.

[Anonymous No.21237640]

>>21233400
In Hebrew, the smuttiest thing would be Song of Songs.

[Anonymous No.21237703]

>>21237640
There might be some risque stuff hidden in anthologies of medieval Sephardi poetry.
I also linked a Biblical Hebrew poem I wrote about Samus' ass in the old thread, but the jannies deleted it.

[Anonymous No.21237820]

>>21237703
How did you learn to write in Biblical Hebrew?

[Anonymous No.21237836]

>>21237820
It was just a haiku, I'm a beginner myself.

[Anonymous No.21238578]

>>21237836
Is it difficult?

[Anonymous No.21238698]

>>21238578
Take everything I write with a grain of salt, because
> I'm a beginner myself.
That said: so far, it's not difficult at all, but it's... weird. That's assuming you're coming from an IE language.
Pretty much every aspect of grammar is less complex than in other classical languages, save for Chinese.
The corpus is relatively small, and mostly written in a simple style, so the vocabulary is also manageable.

But be prepared to start from zero. No help from cognates like in Latin.

[Anonymous No.21238870]

>>21238698
What other languages have you learned prior?

[Anonymous No.21238908]

>>21238870
Latin and some modern European languages.
Not that it helps any with Hebrew. It's just too different.

[Anonymous No.21238926]

>>21238908
I could barely learn the Hebrew alphabet and promptly forgot most of it. Stupid little dots. The word order didnt seem that weird though

[Anonymous No.21239909]

book Γ of Anabasis finished

[Anonymous No.21239937]

>>21239909
Anabased

[Anonymous No.21240237]

>>21234544
I got a near-incunable era pigskin bound book of Homer and a few cheaper but still in the 1500-1650 range Greek books. All the major playwrights etc. Was sick of reading cheap paperbacks or reading classics online.

It was either get a Rolex (I had a rough year and saved a lot and needed a self love gift) or spend a lot less and buy some pieces of history. I have no buyers regret.

[Anonymous No.21240311]

>>21240237
Cool. Would you mind giving some more details? Where did you buy it? How much did it cost? Is it in Greek? I'd be curious to see a picture of the font.

I'm not sure if you've read many old / rare books before, but you're probably not going to want to read that one on the couch. The way to go is on a table with a book cradle.

I don't own any old books myself, but I plan on buying some. I've seen some really good prices on literature I'm interested in.

[Anonymous No.21240978]

Asking again how you would search the entire Latin corpus to see if something is "attested". Is there a website? Or maybe only something you can do at specialised university databases?

[Anonymous No.21240991]

>>21239937
>Anabased
Your 4chan posting privileges have been revoked for one (1) year.

[Anonymous No.21241060]

>>21240311
It was this copy. There are about 4-5 similar copies on Abe books, this one comes with a dual binding of the complete lives of Plutarch, though it’s in Latin. Fortunately I also have Plutarch in Greek too. Regardless it’s a beautiful folio that weighs apparently 10 kilo. It cost me a bit over 2 grand but it’ll basically be my “expensive” book in my collection. I already have well over 2000 books so now I’m aiming to just collect antiquities.

[Anonymous No.21241085]

>>21241060
And to expand on it, Plutarch is Latin only. The works of Homer (complete) is parallel Greek with a Latin translation. Most Greek classics of this era were printed with original Latin translations so you don’t see greek/only books appear until almost 1800 for schoolchildren in British grammar or public schools. Most of my Greek language books are 1850s grammar school prize books in good condition that are leather bound and cost $50 a book because nobody wants them.

Anyways, I’ve found that there’s almost nothing incunable era that’s in Greek. Almost entirely Latin and some Italian. After 1500 you see a LOT of these dual Greek and Latin copies. Almost every publication of a Greek book in this period is dual columned like that. Even Greek bibles often have a Latin side by side. If I ever want to learn Latin, I’m in luck. Most of these translations seem very literal too from the Greek (from what I can tell based on my Romance language fluency).

[Anonymous No.21241264]

>>21241060
>>21241085
Looks beautiful, I'm glad someone a wealthy and cultured gentleman like yourself is able to appreciate such things. Here I am getting filtered by Wheelock. You know greek? And other languages? How long to learn them all? How are you so rich? How do I be like you faggot.

[Anonymous No.21241574]

>>21239909
we really are going to make it, aren't we?

[Anonymous No.21242120]

bump

[Anonymous No.21242186]

>>21241264
this is peak autism

[Anonymous No.21242575]

What did Septvmivs mean by this?

[Anonymous No.21242750]

>>21242186
Autists love grammar, he's being filtered by it. He probably is a Minecraft sperg. On the spectrum, yes, but not full autist. That would actually be useful at least.

[Anonymous No.21242934]

>>21242575
>writers pitch
>readers catch
>heeders itch
>sneeders twitch
>t. Settimio the sodomite

[Anonymous No.21243330]

I found this
εκεινοι οι τιθενται τους νομους
It seems fine but I can't find sense in τιθενται which is apparently "mediopassive" which to me would make no sense at all here
Its meant to translate as
"those who enact the laws"
Any ideas? Thanks.

[Anonymous No.21243487]

>>21243330
τιθημι usually means something like "place," "put," or "set," which is what it would mean if it were active. But recall that mediopassive doesn't necessarily equate directly with just passive. For example, παιδευω in the active means, "I educate." In mediopassive, it could have a passive sense like "I am being educated," or it could have a middle sense like "I have educated," as in, "I have my children educated by a tutor."

Basically, you can think of the middle voice as something that encourages a slightly different reading for a word. τιθημι in the middle can have the sense of "enact."

[Anonymous No.21243494]

>>21243487
Thanks for the explanation I'll need to just fully look it but you made it seem simple enough.

[Anonymous No.21243497]

>>21243330
those who establish laws (for themselves, implicit by middle-voice)
literally "to put to themselves"

[Anonymous No.21243684]

>>21241264
I work remote as an engineer paid top of market but get to read a lot during the day. I know French, English at reading fluency, Greek with some help from the lexicons, Kartuliena and Middle Egyptian at differing stages of learning. Kartuli is something I’m trying to focus more on speaking for travel reasons and Middle Egyptian is obviously entirely written.

[Anonymous No.21243701]

I work remote as an engineer paid top of market but get to read a lot during the day. I know French, English at reading fluency, Greek with some help from the lexicons, a few obscure living languages and Middle Egyptian at differing stages of learning. The living languages are something I’m trying to focus more on speaking for travel reasons and a possible masters in sociolinguistics, and Middle Egyptian is obviously entirely written so I’m learning that like Greek but not nearly as far along.

You become like me by getting a good remote job and getting extremely religious about language study. 2 hours a day minimum for me. I still have a social life I just don’t waste a minute in a day.

[Anonymous No.21243714]

>>21243701
Sorry this was a reply to
>>21241264

[Anonymous No.21243720]

>>21243701
> I just don’t waste a minute in a day.
he posted on 4chan.

[Anonymous No.21243725]

>>21243720
I only post on CLG and I check it for 5 minutes a day. Considering that I have asked questions and gotten help on things here faster than an obscure subreddit or specialized forum, it’s not a waste. I also can return the favor by posting answers to questions here I know. This is the only good thread on lit.

[Anonymous No.21243870]

>>21243725
>This is the only good thread on lit.

[Anonymous No.21243901]

you guys, the mega to hellenisti/romaisti got blown up. i just wanted a copy of the orberg's epitome historiae sacrae.

[Anonymous No.21243928]

>>21243901
>the mega to hellenisti/romaisti got blown up
aw shit
pretty sure the guy who created/updated it posted here, hopefully he still got all the data

[Anonymous No.21243951]

>>21243870
This is the least bad thread on lit.

[Anonymous No.21244073]

>LLPSI
>CAP.VIII

[Anonymous No.21244091]

>>21244073
>LLPSI
Lel

[Anonymous No.21244174]

>>21243497
Thanks

[Anonymous No.21244211]

>>21244073
>>CAP.VIII
Only a few more hump chapters for you before it becomes smooth sailing. If you make it to XV without quitting, then you will be fine.

[Anonymous No.21244264]

>>21244073
in which we learn that the simp and his money are easily parted

[Anonymous No.21244308]

>>21244264
I actually remember a woke argument between two feminists about why LLPSI is bad because it normalizes slavery and the other responded that Medus is the "hero of the story".

[Anonymous No.21244337]

>>21244264
I love that chapter so much it's so comical.

[Anonymous No.21244518]

>>21243901
>>21243928
Megaanon here. Somebody snitched. i only posted the link in /clg/. Some self-righteous faggot went and cried to Big Brother and got it nuked. A Mega dedicated solely to sharing info about dead languages. Mega gives no information on the takedown - who requested it, which file was the guilty culprit, etc.
I do have all the data and more I was planning to update. I keep everything backed up and meticulously organized. Will reupload this week.
When it comes back up I highly recommend others to archive everything on home PC's. IO can't count the number of Megas I've seen nuked over the past few years. Mine is only ~16 GB.
All that said if anyone has any alternative sites please let me know. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[Anonymous No.21244544]

>>21244518
Shouldn't post public links

[Anonymous No.21244607]

>>21244518
>I keep everything backed up and meticulously organized. Will reupload this week.
Outrageously based. Thank you, I will definitely archive it next time you post it.

[Anonymous No.21244651]

>>21244544
What's the point of a private link? How are Anons supposed to access it if not public?

[Anonymous No.21244685]

>>21244651
They ask for it and then you give it. Most fags who want to report shit are opportunistic, they are not going through the trouble of hunting down links.

[Anonymous No.21244854]

>>21240978
I just Google search:

latin “term you’re searching for in parentheses”

Google will search for the text verbatim in the parentheses, then anything that matches that related to Latin (most of the time…) It’s not perfect but it works a lot.

[Anonymous No.21244888]

>>21244518
yeah some of the /lang/ mega archives got removed yesterday too

[Anonymous No.21245154]

Anyone got a link for a Latin translation of Thucydides?

[Anonymous No.21245299]

>>21243725
Based single tread enjoyer.

[Anonymous No.21246332]

Have any tried learning Old Irish? I've heard it's one of the hardest of the ancient Indo-European languages, where almost almost all the verbs have irregular forms.

[Anonymous No.21246429]

>>21245154
found this on archive.org
https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_Na5X-ASjiysC/page/n17/mode/2up
should be literally the first edition

[Anonymous No.21246524]

>>21246332
>almost all the verbs have irregular forms
The same could be said for Ancient Greek with its ~760 irregular verbs.
https://app.memrise.com/course/2146259/ancient-greek-all-irregular-verbs/

>Old Irish? I've heard it's one of the hardest of the ancient Indo-European languages
The problem with Old Irish is not that lots of verbs are irregular, but that the texts written in it are so shit, that the effort is not worth it.

[Anonymous No.21246528]

>old languages
These ain't "classical". And most of them have nothing of note written in them

[Anonymous No.21246536]

>>21245154
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k28227w/f14.item#
https://vivariumnovum.it/risorse-didattiche/propria-formazione/versioni-latine-classici-greci-con-originale-fronte

[Anonymous No.21246539]

>>21246332
Its greek for its verbs in a way but the language has nothing of great value in it nor does the modern one either

[Anonymous No.21246738]

What makes Cicero the level cap of Latin?
What makes him worth reading, apart from the difficulty?

[Anonymous No.21246758]

>>21223927
Brought this to my mind which should give an idea even though it's in Italian but probably close enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voP3U83kigk

[Anonymous No.21247424]

>>21246738
Cicero is nowhere close to the level cap of Latin. He's easy compared to very many authors. Most students read him in their second year.

[Anonymous No.21247467]

>>21246332
I tried Irish and Welsh in college.

As beautiful as they are, >>21246539 is correct. You are learning a old Irish only for 1-2 small anthologies under 100 pages each for $200 on AbeBooks worth of content. Modern Irish and Welsh hardly do anything of note in their languages either. It’s a shame but it is entirely a waste of time.

[Anonymous No.21247499]

>>21247467
>Modern Irish
>hardly do anything of note
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cré_na_Cille

[Anonymous No.21247518]

>>21247499
Oh look, a few great novels here and there, maybe three since independence.

Compare that to any other living languages where great books are written on a yearly basis.

[Anonymous No.21247533]

>>21247467
Welsh has great stuff. Irish not so much.

[Anonymous No.21247554]

>>21247533
It has SOME greats stuff, it highly underperforms compared to its peers. Their best poet of the past century, RS Thomas, wrote in English. He was otherwise based though.

[Anonymous No.21247605]

>>21247554
I was talking about medieval literature. And no it doesn't really have much competition in Western Europe during the middle ages besides French or Latin.

[Anonymous No.21247678]

>>21247605
> And no it doesn't really have much competition in Western Europe during the middle ages besides French or Latin.
Middle High German has great stuff. Nibelungenlied, Kudrun, Arthurian Romances, Minnesang, Carmina Burana, and lots more.

[Anonymous No.21247698]

>>21247678
I guess I meant Celtic/Latin stuff. I would consider Germany, Austria, Hungray etc. as central Europe.

[Anonymous No.21247703]

>>21223605
Ancient Hebrew is the only classical language that matters

[Anonymous No.21247749]

>>21247703
Why

[Anonymous No.21247774]

>>21247749
The Tanakh is all you need to live a good life

[Anonymous No.21247853]

>>21247774
אַךְ לֹא עִבְרִי אֲנִי

[Anonymous No.21247860]

>>21247703
>>21238908
Hebros, please help me tell the difference between these letters. This shit is killing me.
ר - R
ן - Final N
ך - Final X (ch)
ד - D

[Anonymous No.21247889]

>>21247860
just git gud

[Anonymous No.21247907]

>>21247889
I'm not even antisemitic, but you guys are starting to get on my nerves.

[Anonymous No.21247921]

>>21224273
>>21224277

[Anonymous No.21247933]

>>21247860
Is the problem with identifying the letter?
You could try a serif font like Ezra SIL.

Or is the problem remembering which one is which?
R is smooth, D is a plosive. ר is one smooth line, ד is not.
Finals are just the non-final letters with their last part extending below the baseline: ךכ ףפ ןנ

[Anonymous No.21247940]

>>21247933
ך and ר I can't tell apart. When they are together is obvious, but if only one of them appears in a word, idk which it is. Final nun can look like either depending on the font, but that's a separate issue.

[Anonymous No.21247949]

>>21247605
Western Europe was also a literary wasteland during that time. It becomes a powerhouse only well into the renaissance and later. Italy dominates from 1300-1600 easily as do the occitans. The Welsh works are some alright lyrics and the Mabinogion. You at the same time have tons of Middle English literature, Cantar of Cid, the troubadours, and yes I would easily place Germany into that continuum as well. It’s not like it was Roman days and civilization stopped at the Rhine, modern German areas were fully a part of a cline of empire and literature.

The difference is that Welsh then has almost nothing for centuries afterwards, while these other languages flourish. It’s not their fault, of course.

[Anonymous No.21247954]

>>21247518
>Compare that to any other living languages living languages where great books are written on a yearly basis
Aside from english, there is hardly any living language that has that much of worthwhile literature. Usually they are all about 1-3 good books/authors, while the rest is just a pile of useless, boring and/or abominable crap.

[Anonymous No.21247955]

I'm trying to teach my 7 year old Latin and learn with him.

We're working through a book called Song School Latin, but does anybody have any other resources or ideas for things kids might like?

[Anonymous No.21247959]

>>21247949
What about Medieval Galician or Old Catalan?

[Anonymous No.21247961]

>>21247949
>>21247605
Id also add to that and eager people learn Welsh and Irish because in theory it «seems cool». If you want great literature of that era of humanity you should learn Persian, Arabic, Latin, Chinese, Japanese. Western Europe wasn’t an important part of the world until after the middle 2nd millenium, and the dearth of literature there doesn’t help.

[Anonymous No.21247966]

>>21247955
>anybody have any other resources or ideas for things kids might like?
If you look up "homeschool Latin" there are a lot of vlogs from parents who review resources. There is also a guy named Alexius Cosanus who teached kids that age at a private school. I'm sure if you message him or leave a comment he might recommend something.
https://www.youtube.com/c/AlexiusCosanus

[Anonymous No.21247978]

>>21247955
>>21247966
I should also add that a lot of those homeschool parents don't really care about the kids being able to read anything in Latin. They are mostly just teaching them Latin because they hear it's part of a "classical education" and they kids usually learn root words and a few songs and that's it. You will have varying degrees of success using resources that they recommend.
Here's some more stuff.
Mindcraft Latin stuff: https:/www.youtube.com/c/DivusMagisterCraft
Carla Hurt's vids: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXi1m1_th92pfNYD4wUW4SEE8yZF-DQFR

[Anonymous No.21247979]

>>21247954
That’s retarded. German literature is strong. French literature is very strong, but all lit will read is Houellebecq: there’s great metropolitan french writers, and a growing literary scene in extended part of francophone west Africa and MENA. Spanish literature has been exceptionally strong since the second half of the 20th century, a lot of it coming from Argentina, Brazil, Mexico. Japanese has plenty of good writers still around. Arabic and Farsi in particular is filled with tons of great writers who haven’t been translated. The few who have like Mahfouz are exceptional. Slavic language nations hit above their weight.

English on the other hand has a handful of actually good writers in the US and a palmful in the UK.

Good job outing yourself as poorly read I guess?

[Anonymous No.21247983]

>>21247940
But unless you're trying to read something handwritten, the ך will always extend visibly below the baseline, compared to the letter that came before it, no?
Okay, since we're talking about Biblical, you could also use niqud as some kind of heuristic: ךָ and ךְ you'll see all the time, everything else is probably a ר.

[Anonymous No.21248005]

>>21247979
>Arabic and Farsi in particular is filled with tons of great writers who haven’t been translated.
If you learn standard written Farsi or MSA how far back in time can you read?

[Anonymous No.21248029]

>>21248005
Very far for MSA.

[Anonymous No.21248035]

>>21247979
You're trying to convince a monolingual that literature written in languages he will never learn is worthwhile.

[Anonymous No.21248071]

>>21248029
I hear people say Classical Arabic and MSA are the same, but is that true? Obvious updated vocab and abandoned antiquated words or expressions, but is the grammar the same?

[Anonymous No.21249190]

>>21246758
That's a butt-ugly car, but that is a really good commercial.

[Anonymous No.21249206]

>>21247860
#3 is a final kaf, not chet.
A resh is curved. A dalet is straight and angular. The final kaf is like a big dalet, and it always (or very often) has a schwa inside of it. To tell the difference between a waw and a final nun, you just use size.
I also recommend using a different font from Arial. I forget my preferred Hebrew font, but they're out there. Choose something traditional, something that a Bible would be printed in, not something curvy globohomo font.

[Anonymous No.21249218]

>>21249206
For fonts, you can always download some from SBL. I recommend using their Hebrew keyboard too.

[Anonymous No.21249230]

>>21247966
That guy is a retarded faggot.

[Anonymous No.21249305]

>>21249230
Alexius? Yeah, he's a douche. But I was just trying trying help the other bro find info about teaching kids Latin.

[Anonymous No.21249981]

>>21247979
>German literature is strong.
The sole only person who actually warrants bothering to learn that language, is Nietzsche. Yes, he is that worth it. And proper analysis of his texts would (much like the bible scholarship) occupy you for decades.
The rest of the German literature, however, especially in comparison, is mediocre shit.

[Anonymous No.21250076]

>>21223849
even though she knew Egyptian, i doubt she would moan in it except quite consciously, which would be a warning sign of lack of passion (or, conversely, raceplay if you're into that)

[Anonymous No.21250243]

>>21249981
I have no idea how anyone could have this terrible opinion