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/lit/ - Literature

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[ERROR] No.2120929 [Reply] [Original]

/lit/, what is your general opinion on five-paragraph essays in school?

I've got to write one at the moment. :| I'd find it really easy except that this is the first one I've ever done and I've trained myself not to be a repetitive idiot.

I'm of the opinion that being repetitive in the sort of fashion required for a 'good' five-paragraph essay is bad writing. Repetition for a purpose is fine (to emphasise a point or remind the reader of something stated prior), but with a five-paragraph essay, everything is, at the most, four paragraphs above you. Reminders are rendered unnecessary because of this.

I feel like the entire damned thing just encourages bad writing.

>> No.2120933

underage

>> No.2120939

>>2120933
Just because I'm in highschool doesn't mean I'm underage.

>> No.2120940

I don't understand why you'd want to repeat yourself like that anyhow? If your closing and transition sentences are good, it shouldn't be necessary at all. Does your teacher actually make you repeat yourself? Points are deducted for it?

>> No.2120944

>>2120939
No, but it does suggest that you're still too young developmentally to maintain a good dialogue on this board.

>> No.2120953

>>2120940
The five paragraph essay relies on a three-part divided thesis. Your opening paragraph is mainly a thesis statement, and the closing paragraph is a 'creative restatement of the thesis'.

I'm most definitely getting points taken off if I don't repeat myself.

I find it kind of silly, but I guess it's necessary, just considering that five paragraph essays are on every standardized test ever, and colleges sometimes use your SAT essay to see how good you are at writing (because it's the only essay they have complete proof that it wasn't professionally edited or written by someone else, apparently).

It's another case of 'teaching to the test'.

>> No.2120960

I nearly forgot about these things. I suppose you could switch up the diction, so it's still saying the same thing, but sounds less tiresome when read.

>> No.2120964

Many kids aren't bright enough to write an essay without it being VERY formulaic. My brightest students can break out of that mold and I do encourage it... but if you don't say "transitions go here" or "a thesis sentence needs to be worded similar to this" for many teenagers, they will never get it at all unfortunately.

>> No.2120983

>>2120953
There's no reason you should have to use the exact same wording if you know what you're doing, just keep your transitions clear and your topic sentences related directly to them.
Yeah, following the formula is tedious, but the important thing you're learning is how to extend the formula later.

>> No.2120993

i need help!!!! sorry for posting in your thred but anyone what to help me with my thesis statment for my research paper?
What i have now : Genetics the teeth on the key to life, DNA, can be maniputaled but with much controversy.
it has to have something about genetics DNA and the maniulation of it and the morals behind it and im stuck on how to reword it :[

>> No.2121000

>>2120993
Your thesis currently isn't even a sentence. Are you English as second language?

>> No.2121006

no, i just cant put it into a sentence without it sounding like 2 or 3, and i need to have all 3 of my big questions mentioned in it
DNA
Genetic engineering
the morals bhind genetic manipulation.
and in advance i suck at spelling, i am sorry

>> No.2121011

>>2121006
DNA don't deny an hectic moral dialectic of the rumbling rousing around of a gene for these blue jeans in that it such is a barely tonic device for its own ruse, Yeltsin.

>> No.2121016

>>2121011
what????? that made less sence than my failed attempt

>> No.2121018

>>2121016
"Tonic" refers to the alcoholic drink, whereas "ruse" sounds like "Rus".

>> No.2121023

God, I hated that shit in highschool. Whenever I tried to be creative or intelligent with them I would just get points deducted. I dislike most English teachers for this reason, they espouse the virtues of creativity and wit but forbid you from actually using them in assignments.

>> No.2121027

I remember in high school taking both the mandatory English course and an optional Creative Writing course in the same semester. It was both incredibly frustrating and entertaining trying to accommodate to the completely opposite expectations.

My writing started to mix -- English assignments became too abstract and not concrete enough, creative writing assignments became too literal and not rhythmic enough.

Ugh...

>> No.2121033

>>2120993
Conversations change, new people enter and the flow of the topic goes somewhere else. The fact that it's allowed to happen on 4chan is what makes it one of the more interesting places for serious discussion-conversation is allowed to go in a more relaxed, natural flow than on a lot of forums.

>>2121023
My teachers don't even encourage free thinking. Often if I answer a question, I'll get the response "that's not QUITE what I'm looking for, Invision" (hell, I've gotten that on essay questions on tests before). Maybe my school district just sucks.

>> No.2121038

>Fucking tripcode not working.

>> No.2121049

If there's one thing I learned from English class, it's that nobody knows anything about writing. Throughout high school, I got A's in English without really trying. The difficulty of the course was dependent entirely on the teacher, not the content. Now that I'm in college, I still get great grades on my writing assignments, despite turning in shitty papers that my high school teachers would never have accepted.

In the end, there were three only pieces of writing that actually mattered to me: My college admission essay, my SAT writing prompt, and my college English placement essay. Want to know what those have in common? You can't get feedback on them from the people they matter to. I think I wrote a 5 paragraph essay for the SAT prompt. Whatever I wrote, it translated to a 740. Didn't think my college essay was very good, but either it, my letters of recommendation, or my SAT scores got me accepted into their Honor's Program. As for that placement essay, completely failed it, got placed in the lowest English class. Retook the test, same result. Honors program says fuck that and bumps me up two levels, and I continue to turn in shitty work and get high grades.

Anyway, the point I was making here is that feedback is awesome. If you're that worried, write your papers a few days early and hand them in. The teacher should hand it back with a whole bunch of suggestions. Obey all those, and you're good.

>> No.2121057
File: 118 KB, 397x298, B^U.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

five paragraph essays are bullshit.

I never liked them because usually you're tasked to take a stance on something and then write about it. I like to write about it and then take a stance once I've reviewed my thoughts. What if you write a thesis and then when you're done with your fourth paragraph you discover what you've written disproves your actual thesis?

But the worst part is that the five paragraph essay has created shit like "Webster's dictionary defines ______ as...," "Firstly... Secondly... Thirdly...," "In conclusion..." and all this other bullshit. They teach you do write like that, and to adhere to this very rigid form that relies on bullshit phrases and "transitional sentences" and shit, and then in high school they go "NOPE, LOL. ONLY KIDS WRITE LIKE THAT!" And they're right. They're fucking right, only idiot kids write like that. You've spent the past seven years learning how to write like a fucking idiot.

>> No.2121067

"I never liked them because usually you're tasked to take a stance on something and then write about it."
Ever been on a debate team? It's a lot of fun, you can learn a lot, and you're pretty much assigned to take a side and defend that side.

Never be a lawyer.

>> No.2121076

>>2121057

Seems like the problem with the five paragraph essay is that people forgot it was means to an end. It's not "let's write 5 paragraph essays because they're awesome", it's "Kids can't write for shit. How do I force them to organize their ideas?"

So they don't have any gradual transition. Rather than teaching kids the method to determine how to structure your essay, they say "structure it like this. No deviations whatsoever are acceptable." Right up until high school when they pull the rug out from under you and spend maybe two weeks teaching you to structure and essay. something you should have been learning for 6 years.

>> No.2121079

if you can come up with something better than the 5 paragraph format, i'm all ears

>> No.2121080

>>2121067
I did do a debate once in junior high. It was total bullshit. It was like memorizing and reciting a god damn five paragraph essay.

Why take a stance and argue about some topic I don't care about? It doesn't fucking matter.

>> No.2121084

>>2121079
Write like a fucking normal person.

>> No.2121093

>>2121079
>make a statement
>provide supporting evidence

Fuck the structure. Just make it sound authoritative and convincing.

>> No.2121094

>>2121080

Seriously?

I hate five paragraph essays as much as the next guy, but if you think you'll never have to take up and defend a stance you don't actually believe in, you're delusional.

Debates are rigidly structured for two reasons. One, it's a test. They want to see how well you can sum up your ideas, being concise while still being convincing. And two, they don't want it to devolve into a shouting match or a flurry of ad hominem attacks, so there's structure and protocol and time limits and a mediator to keep you in check.

>> No.2121103

>>2121094
>if you think you'll never have to take up and defend a stance you don't actually believe in, you're delusional.

Don't tell me you're one of those morons who thinks there's only two solutions to every problem, and only one of them is correct.

If you like debate, good for you, keep it up, do what you think is fun. But don't try to convince me that it's anything more than pseudo-intellectual masturbation.

>> No.2121121

>>2121103
Debate is like chess but without any real skill involved or without a clear winner. In fact debate is a waste of time and all those debate kids transform into the worst fags.

>> No.2121125

>>2121080
It might be that both of my parents are lawyers, but debating is pretty awesome if you have someone you can do it with in a mature fashion. Especially when you have to defend something you completely disagree with.

The first time I had to do that, it made me see politics from a whole new light, and actually got me to see that people can have and share differences without frothing at the mouth and screaming at each other. It was pretty awesome.

And then I discovered forums and ended up getting pretty into debating. The only thing I can't stand is philosophy.

Bringing up another question: How the heck do you enjoy forums without any debate? It's half of their purpose.

>> No.2121128

>>2121103

No, I'm one of those morons who thinks that you're ever going to get a job.

Stupid, I know. But if you ever did get one, you'd do a ton of shit you didn't want to do, and eventually you'd have to argue a point you didn't believe in, because it was a choice between that and getting fired.

Plus, if you look at the argument from the other side's point of view, you might actually learn something.

Also, I've never actually done debate, but I have watched a few. You have to have arguments for both sides, and they only tell you what side you'll be taking right before the debate. So you have to be able to both make and refute arguments from both sides.