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/lit/ - Literature

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[ERROR] No.2102829 [Reply] [Original]

So it's obvious that Frodo is the protagonist at the begining, and it's equaly obvious that Sam is the protagonist at the end. But when does the switch take place?

>> No.2102842

slowly while frodo looses his mind, these things are rarely distinguishable in life as in literature. Art should strive to destroy it's self. lit keeps it alive.

>> No.2102841

In Shelob's lair.

>> No.2102843

About Shelobs lair if i remember correctly,

Maybe even a little earlier.

>> No.2102857

While we're on the subject of LOTRO, can anyone explain what Maiar is? Or Istar? I tried to look it up on a wiki but it just went straight over my head.

>> No.2102863

Damn you, Tolkienfags.

I was all set to post my stock GRRM/Pratchett/Goodkind admonishment that the thread doesn't pertain to literature and hit submi--wait! It's Tolkien...

You win this time.

>> No.2102875

>>2102857
Think angels. They're underneath the Ainur (which are more like arch-angels), which are in turn underneath Ilúvatar.

>> No.2102879

>>2102875
Oh, and the Istar are just Maiar that have become mortal wizards.

>> No.2102883
File: 66 KB, 295x415, frodo2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
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Why didn't the eagles just drop Gandalf into Mount Mordor?

>> No.2102886
File: 16 KB, 298x375, harry.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
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>>2102883
Why didn't Voldemort just put some poison in Harry's wine goblet at school one day?

>> No.2102902

>>2102857
Maiar are just favoured servants of the Valar who are Ainur. They are lesser magical being once removed from the Ainur somewhat like the Ainur are from Illuvatar. Sauron was one if im not mistaken.

>> No.2102904

>>2102841
I would say earlier than Shelob's lair the shift begins I think when Frodo and Sam are separated from the fellowship and the more Frodo isolates himself with Gollum the more Sam takes his place.

>> No.2102905

>>2102875

yea, let's not forget Tolkein was a christfag. Morgoth is Satan. Eru is God. Gandalf is basically a guardian angel of humanity, along with other wizards.

>> No.2102908

>>2102902
Ainur = immortal spirits created by Illuvatar. Roughly the same as angels.
Maiar and Valar = Ainur who entered creation and actually have a part to play in LotR.
Maiar = Weaker Ainur
Valar = Stronger Ainur
Ishtar = Maiar like Gandalf and Saruman that became wizards.

>> No.2102922

>>2102905
Yup. The entire "greatest of the Ainur that turned to evil" was ripped straight from Christian mythology. Tolkein was a Catholic, which is reflected in how he describes Illuvatar; where most protestants like to portray God as a loving sky-parent, Catholic tradition puts him in a much sterner and more impersonal place (hence the need for ministering angels and saints). Illuvatar is very out of touch with the concerns of mortals, about as aware of our concerns as we are the concerns of bacteria. Mortal concerns are handled by the Valar and Maiar.

>> No.2102929

>>2102886
Cause the castle was warded against him and snape was dum's bitch, not the person you replied to.

>> No.2102930

>>2102929
Even when he was Purple Turban's other face?

>> No.2102934

>>2102930
I think it was explained that he was watched or some shit or maybe quaill was too much of a bitch to do it voldemort was only a weak presence there if he flaunted his power white beard would have sensed him.

>> No.2102938

>>2102934
By flaunted his power i meant if he openly controlled quaill

>> No.2102941

>>2102934
Since when is poison in a cup "flaunting power"?

That's just a hand wave by Rowling. If Voldy really wanted Harry dead before say, book 5, he had plenty of opportunities. It would be more reasonable to say "he wanted to kill him personally" than "he never had the chance".

>> No.2102944

>>2102941
see
>>2102938
And he was only there to get the stone killing harry would have drawn attention to himself.

>> No.2103000

>>2102829

>ITT: Applying the concept of "protagonist" to a medievalizing novel.

>> No.2103696

>>2102829
I'll give you a hint, spiders.

>> No.2103702
File: 472 KB, 1200x1083, Black Rider and the Gaffer - Stephen Hickman.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
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There is no one protagonist in LotR OP.

There are basically four.

Because the story is told from a limited 3rd person viewpoint, that of the four hobbits.

IE, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin are the protagonists, from beginning to end

>> No.2103703
File: 1.16 MB, 1280x544, vlcsnap-2011-09-23-22h03m54s179.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
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why didn't jc just use a bomb

>> No.2103725
File: 241 KB, 900x782, Eowyn and the Witch King.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
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I don't like comparing the Ainur to angels too much.

It works best with Melkor, what with him being Satan, but it doesn't fit too well with the rest.

And even though Eru is the supreme creator deity, it's not incorrect to refer to the Valar as gods.

They're even referred to as gods at one point in the Silmarillion.

Anyway, here's some things about the ainur that don't fit with angels too well.

One, although the ainur are spirits, they can take on physical form when they want, and they pretty much spend all of their time with actual physical forms.

Two, the difference between the Valar and the Maiar is really much greater than the difference between archangels and regular angels.

Three, Ainur are not beyond redemption once they rebel against Eru.

In Christian thought, the fallen angels cannot receive God's forgiveness because, as spiritual beings, they exist outside of time.

In other words, there is no before or after with angels. They can't rebel against God one day and then decide to seek his forgiveness the next. Once they've sinned against God, it's as if they have always been against God, see.

It's hard to explain but I think you get my point.

>> No.2103733
File: 186 KB, 709x1017, Gandalf and the Balrog - Maciek Wygnanski.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
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>>2103725
oh and the Ainur, even though they are spirits by default, are not genderless

to Christians, God and the angels and genderless, because without physical bodies they cannot posses gender of any kind

but the Ainur are pretty much either male Ainur or female Ainur

also, the Maiar seem to have elemental affiliations (probably based on which Valar they are subservient too)

like the Maia girl who became the sun was specifically referred to as a Maiar of fire who was not corrupted like most of the rest of her kind (the balrogs)

and Sauron was a Maia subservient to what's his face the earth Valar, before being corrupted by Morgoth, so Sauron can be viewed as sort of an earth spirit I think

>> No.2103739
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>>2103725
>>2103733
tl;dr, give Tolkien some fucking credit

he had a little more originality than to just copy/paste his own beliefs as a Catholic into his fictional world of middle earth