/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.2100830]

Why do you like this, /lit/? Sure, the cave allegory is great, but, admit it, most of it is the wet dreams of a bitter aristocrat. It excludes the physically weak from government whatever no matter how great their mental abilities are. It openly claims the leaders of a state have the right to lie to their subjects if they think they must. It calls government propaganda a necessity.

It seems to me that Plato's ideal Republic was hardly any different than Nazi Germany.

So, why the hell do people really like this?

[Anonymous No.2100839]

Because it's thousands of years old.

[Anonymous No.2100840]

They'll say it creates this ideal place where everybody knows philosophy is the most important matter, during the culmination of a society that had tuned into pandering for it's living (looks, sports, rhetoric), but to tell the truth, it seems to be the first book to really pander to elitists, rising in popularity at a time when Athenian ideas of democracy were being discredited, it seemed, by the new rising power in the Greek world...Macedonia

Picture very related.

[Anonymous No.2100858]

It's a really really important book, even if I hardly agree with Plato's argument here. Dismissing it on the grounds that some of Plato's conclusions are unpalatable or unpleasant to modern ears is kind of stupid.

And if you think that Plato's Republic was the same as Nazi Germany, I suspect that you barely understood either.

[Anonymous No.2100861]

>>2100858
Well then, by all means, explain where I'm wrong.

[Anonymous No.2100862]

>>2100858

he's got a point. the nazis were hardly philosopher -kings. however, the totalitarianism is noted.

[Anonymous No.2100863]

>it is the wet dreams of a bitter aristocrat
moar like "bitter academic"

>Plato's ideal Republic was hardly any different than Nazi Germany
moar like nowadays Iran. The goal of Plato's republic was philosophical piety, not conquest and racial supremacy.

[Anonymous No.2100865]

platonic irony guise

[Anonymous No.2100871]

>>2100863

Or Saudi Arabia at it's peak, with all the strictures on music and such...

[Anonymous No.2100872]

I compared the ideal Republic and Nazi Germany on the grounds that both had no issue with using propaganda, both promoted eugenics and considered the arts when they saw fit to do so. Also, no matter how preposterous this sounds, Hitler does somehow fit the stoic portrait of the philosopher-kings. I don't think it would be far-fetched to say that Hitler was influenced by Plato's Republic in the way he exercised power. And I'm not quite certain he just misunderstood it.

[Anonymous No.2100877]

>>2100861
plato's republic was a community where the just had been identified and those who knew the just ruled, their rule legitimized by that knowledge of the just. nazi germany was a system founded on race where those who rule did so by virtue of their race and by the arbitrary chance of not having been purged.

more broadly, i think you're trying to dismiss plato's republic because it disagrees with certain modern assumptions like liberalism/democracy/pluralism. i don't think that's a really good idea and i think blithely assuming the truth of those things is really fucking dumb. although i do not dislike any of those things, i'm not Stormie here. i just think that you should try to seriously comprehend Plato's argument without being distracted by the fact that many things he said seem to conflict, or do conflict, with your own assumptions.

[Anonymous No.2100878]

>>2100863
Well, Plato was, by birth and belief, an aristocrat. From both his mother's and father's side he was descended by some of the most revered Athenians. Though he was certainly also a bitter academic (the first one).

[Anonymous No.2100880]

>>2100872

well, there's a school of thought that says Hitler fit more the role of a Romantic Era artist, with flesh as his paint, and Germany as his canvas, hard-heartedly trimming and casting away all the humanity that didn't fit his own obsessive "vision".

[Anonymous No.2100883]

>>2100872
Well, I think you're reading the Republic in a far too utopian sense, that you're more committed to reading it as a serious proposal about the best community than may be entirely justified. But even if that is the only thing to be gained from the republic: it is true that they share a similarity in the sense that they both derive the legitimacy and character of their rule, the structure of the regime, and the content of their politics from a single, central idea. In the case of Plato and the ancient philosophers, the central idea is the just or the good. In the case of Hitler and the fascists, it's a modernist conception of race, all-consuming blood. That basic similarity, however, hardly makes them identical.

[Anonymous No.2100885]

I think the real nail holding all this together is the fact Sparta, with Persian money, defeated the Athenian Empire. Much of Plato's Republic has a kind of nod to Spartan Oligarchical rule, eugenics and all else. Sparta, with all it's flaws, has been admired by many, as well as their law-giver, Lycurgus, including the nazis.

[Anonymous No.2100887]

>>2100877
Well, in his description of how the young phylakes-epikouroi are chosen, Plato writes that both their physical appearance and mental strength should be considered, which seem similar to nazi ideology. I'm not saying the two are one and the same, but they do seem to have many in common.

I'm not dismissing it on the grounds it disagrees with democracy. I'm dismissing it because I found the way the just are supposed to be chosen pretty vague. There are no details in exactly what the children should be tested, what would determine they possess mental strength etc. Generally the system seems far more likely to lead to abuses of power than democracy is.

I don't really agree with how democracy works nowadays, but I still find it a much more effective system than the one described in Plato. Though the citizens who have the right to vote should have some specific training. You can't be able to decide for the future of a state without having any clue about politics, just because you're over 18.

[Anonymous No.2100888]

>>2100885
what the fuck are you even arguing here? you're not even making an argument. you're just saying a thing. don't just snidely try and insinuate some weird conspiracy theory of "plato -> spartanist -> nazi". are you seriously arguing that plato was attempting to reform athens into a more spartan city-state, and that this makes him a spartanist, and that therefore he was a nazi because the nazis liked lycurgus? first off, if that's your argument, you should make that fucking argument. second, that's fucking stupid.

[Anonymous No.2100891]

>>2100877
Well, in his description of how the young phylakes-epikouroi are chosen, Plato writes that both their physical appearance and mental strength should be considered, which seem similar to nazi ideology. I'm not saying the two are one and the same, but they do seem to have many in common.

[Anonymous No.2100901]

>>2100891
Sorry for typing the same thing twice, pc is being a bitch today.

[Anonymous No.2100902]

>>2100888

No argument at all was the point. Nazi Germany admired Sparta, along with a sort of Romantic Mythology of Germany, as well as many other ideas. Plato admired an ideal of Sparta, which he wove partially into the Republic, neither Spartan Ephors and Kings, nor Hitler resembled the philosopher-kings of the Republic, en finale, there is only a synchronicity of influences, one upon another.

[Anonymous No.2100905]

>>2100888
Op here.
Please try to answer with arguments. Calling opinions stupid is leading nowhere. By the way, I'm not the one you answered to.

Anyway, though Plato must have been slightly influenced by the Spartans run themselves, he actually points out in his Republic that Sparta is a wrong form of government. He calls it a Timocracy, a state where citizens are obsessed with earning more glory and social approval. These states, he claims, are wrong exactly because they make their citizens extremely warlike and open to the idea of conducting war simply in the name of personal glory.

So that kind of contradicts my initial argument about Nazi Germany. Plato's Republic certainly wasn't the warlike state Nazi Germany was. Still, I do believe the two have much in common and that the former influenced the latter.

[Anonymous No.2100914]

>>2100905

agreed.

[Anonymous No.2100923]

This is democracy.

[Anonymous No.2100934]

[Anonymous No.2100938]

questions?

[Anonymous No.2100943]

because it's mostly right, and mostly first.

[Anonymous No.2100945]

No, no, no, this is the wrong form of democracy. In its ideal form, democracy would still allow all these people to exist (that is its virtue after all, freedom of speech and thought), but it wouldn't let all of them to vote, but only those who are actually interested and educated in how politics work. The others would only hurt the state, since their lack of education would make them vulnerable to propaganda and bad decisions. Not everyone is qualified to be a citizen. In that I agree with Plato.

[Anonymous No.2100947]

Platos ideal republic was very different from nazi germany.

Maybe you should inform yourself about nazi germany (try Ian Kershaw - "The Nazi Dictatorship: Problems and Perspectives of Interpretation" if you actually want this).

first of all, Platos politeia has to be understood from greek society. A society that is extremely different in almost every aspect than any western society in the 20th century.
Don't believe those fools who tell you that the politeia is in any way timeless, that only applies to very few parts.

Also, while the politeia seems easy at first, its not. THats why so many fucking idiots think they have a grasp on it. I blame the translations, tho...

[Anonymous No.2100953]

>>2100947
So you're greek?

[Anonymous No.2100955]

>>2100839
This is precisely the point, thousands! Older than organized religion but when you bring up Platos allegory of the cave and point to evidence of a shadow government today people call you a conspiracy nut job? lol
Op compares it to Nazi Germany but not to present day USA? lol, open your mind! The Janus head is an interesting concept, so much history has been rewritten but it translates to the modern day Hegelian dialect. Platos republic is an illusion, indeed written by a bunch of well healed aristocratic philosophers who saw too many slave uprisings and they have been trying to put an end to that ever since. It's better if they revolt against shadows.
Religion is just organized philosophy which is all attached at the hip to politics and mass social control.

[Anonymous No.2100957]

>>2100953
Greek =/= know how to speak greek

[Anonymous No.2100959]

>>2100923
>>2100934
>>2100938
I think this should be Fascism vs ochlocracy.

[Anonymous No.2100962]

>>2100830
It's an ancient excuse for crypto-fascism and libertarian hellholes.
What's not to love?

[Anonymous No.2100979]

>>2100957
I didn't imply it was definite smart-ass. That's why I asked.

[Anonymous No.2100982]

>>2100947
It seems to me that you write too much but explain too few. You claim that ancient greek society was different than modern society. That's obvious. But you don't explain in what ways it is different. If you have read a book that explains that, please do recommend it. Otherwise I would you are simply expressing opinions without arguments that possibly contribute to a discussion.

You also don't explain what is the difficulty in Plato's Republic. I happen to be greek and have a fair knowledge of Ancient Greek so I can tell you that at least my translation is all right (I have the ancient text as well so I can compare).

I don't mean to sound offensive or patronizing, but if we only express opinions without any arguments the whole discussion doesn't lead anywhere.

[Anonymous No.2100987]

>>2100955
I don't think anyone really holds religion in such high esteem nowadays in the western world. Well, except if you live in the USA.

[sage No.2100990]

>wet dreams of a bitter aristocrat
ad hominem

>It excludes the physically weak from government whatever no matter how great their mental abilities are. It openly claims the leaders of a state have the right to lie to their subjects if they think they must. It calls government propaganda a necessity.

What a fantastic summary!

But you have not presented any arguments. Try again.

[Anonymous No.2100996]

>>2100953
no, but I am a historian who studied plato and aristotle extensively.

the key to understanding plato's politeia and nomoi (also very interesting book in this regard, because its much more "hand on") is the crisis of the polis-society (roughly starting at 450BC and only ending through the supremacy of macedon rule). Plato (like most his contemporaries) felt deeply insecure about the development of their societies after they experienced violent conflicts about the "constitution" of their city states.

the greek called those "civil wars" stasis (pl. staseis). If you look for this term in the politeia of plato and aristotles politika, you will find it to be a key element when talking about the worst possible state.
Plato, who believed in absolute and also humanly conceivable values and virtues, extrapolates the base political economy of the greek city state society: THe individual has to subordinate itself to the whole completely.
His answer to the political warfare between different interests (land owners, merchants, craftsmen) was to find the one and only true solution to things: enlightenment.
(gonna continue in next post)

[Anonymous No.2101006]

>>2100962
>he learnt new words, and even made up some of his own!

[Anonymous No.2101008]

>>2100996
>ending through the supremacy of macedon rule
You mean when the macedonians conquered the greeks?
Since you claim you are a historian, could you explain to me what is the deal with greece-macedonia? I always see conflicting arguments by both sides, every time I google it.

[Anonymous No.2101011]

>>2101006
Did you mean to post in that other thread about Sexpeare?

[Anonymous No.2101012]

>>2100996
enlightenment means for plato the insight into the realm of absolute ideas. hence the necessity for the "philosopher" king.
He is not a philosopher because he seeks truth in discourse, he is a philosopher because he as already attained it. in platos ideal city there is no need for politics anymore, just governance. The head of state doesn't has to negotiate solutions to political problems anymore, its decisions are based on a set of ultimate rules. For Plato, with the rule of the philosopher kings, society has evolved beyond the political (in this regard, the politeia is very much a utopian text).

[Anonymous No.2101024]

>>2100990
If you're new, check how the discussion has evolved. Now, the main argument was that Plato's Republic is extremely totalitarian and therefore can easily go wrong if power is given to the wrong people. And that is made possible by the fact that Plato is rather vague when describing the criteria by which men will be considered just and fit to rule.

I thought my summary was pretty self-explanatory, turns out I was wrong. Oh well.

[Anonymous No.2101025]

>>2101008
greeks claim "macedonia is greek", while macedonians don't associate themselves with greece. Basically greeks want macedonians to be greeks, but macedonias are like: "We conquered you, we are NOT you, stop kissing our ass"

[Anonymous No.2101029]

>>2101008
amongst the greeks the macedons were halfway between themselves (hellenes who spoke greek and lived in city states) and the rest / barbaroi (the ones who did not speak greek, barbaroi refers to the unintelligibility of their speech, like blabla).
The macedons, unlike the greeks, were not living in city states but spoke roughly the same language. they were a warrior culture and philipp II of macedon led many wars against the neighbors to the east, north and west and then went south and defeated an alliance of greek city states (chaironeia 338BC). with this date begins the hellenistic era of greek history (according to many, but not all). The son of philipp II then went on to conquer the persian empire (alexander the great). Greek poleis never were independet again, all internal conflicts could be easily externalised, the circle of elibible citizens was vastly decreased in most poleis.

[Anonymous No.2101036]

>>2101029
this doesn't really answer my question.
Where the ancient macedonians greeks, like the spartans and athenians?
Are today's macedonians their descendants?
I read somewhere there are two macedonias. One with a greek population and one with a slav-something one.
>Which one is the real thing?

[Anonymous No.2101048]

>>2101025
>macedonias are like: "We conquered you,
lolwut? The republic of Macedonia is a Slavonic country and never claimed to have any connection to the historic Macedonians (who no longer exist) apart from living in the Macedonia region.

[Anonymous No.2101046]

>>2101036
oh, you are talking about the modern state of macediona... well, they claim they are descendants, just like jordanian kings claim to be the righful heirs to the throne of the hashemites from 2000 years ago.

thats total bullshit, tho. modern macedonia (as well as modern greek) were "found" nationalities. with the death of alexander the great macedonia basically ends. after that it was roman, byzantine, ottoman. at the advent of WWI the are is like a clusterfuck of various territorial claims, almost all not historically substantiated but instead fabrications of nationalist movements (like pretty much all nationalities, see Benedict Andersons "imagined communities" for a very interesting explanation of "nation building").

[Anonymous No.2101044]

>>2101008
Op here.
Well, ancient macedonians were greeks - they spoke a form of greek (google "pella curse tablet", it's the definitive proof), they worshipped the same gods, they were allowed to participate in the Olympic Games, where only greeks were allowed.

The people from FYROM are slavs, their language is slavic, they have no relation with ancient macedonians whatsoever. They claim to be descended from ancient macedonians so they can develop a sense of identity.

I have no problem with them calling their land Macedonia or whatever (the term is correct geographically speaking), but it is certainly wrong to call their airport "Alexander the Great".

I am opinionated since I'm greek, but check all I wrote. You' ll see they are facts.

[Anonymous No.2101051]

>>2101046
>fabrications of nationalist movements like any national identity
What are genes? What is an allele frequency? How do I into population genetics?

[Anonymous No.2101055]

>>2101051
> population genetics

whatever, according to that I am the embodyment of the fucking masterrace and your opinion is automatically invalid.

population genetics is for small minded retards. try to use that on populations that are not fucking iceland and you will see you can not effectively use that along the lines of modern nationalities.

[Anonymous No.2101059]

>>2101046
Ok, we are going completely outside the main discussion, but some things must be pointed out. Nations don't just disappear. The ancient greeks were never completely destroyed, and though during the middle ages they mixed with the other nations that migrated to Greece and Asia Minor, they were still there in one form or another. Certainly modern greeks aren't the same with ancient greeks, but they are related. Furthermore modern greek is a direct descendant of ancient greek. Even culturally, Byzantium maintained many features of ancient Greece.

[Anonymous No.2101060]

>>2101025
They were two hellenic tribes who were eventually united. The modern states of both are completely different but for homeland.

[Anonymous No.2101067]

>>2101059
true.

but even the concept of "nation" is only a couple of hundred years old. you see what I am getting at?
The problem of "nation" becomes evident when you look at the fringes and the problem of differentiation with other nationalities.

As talkworthy this topic may be, I think we can't go any further in this without derailing the thread, tho.

[Anonymous No.2101075]

>>2101055
>population genetics
>masterrace

Not mad, I'm just confused.

[Anonymous No.2101076]

>>2101044
Είσαι Έλληνας, αλλά την προπαγάνδα του κοινωνικού μαρξισμού την έχεις αφομοιώσει πλήρως. Που να ήσουν και αμερικανάκι. Θα έτρεχες στις διαδηλώσεις για τα gay rights!

[Anonymous No.2101080]

>>2101076
wtf is your problem man?

go bother some LGBT co-op with your crap...

[Anonymous No.2101083]

Οι μισοί φορτσανίτες είμαστε Έλληνες τελικά. Κοίτα, μπορείς να είσαι όσο δογματικός θες, αλλά έχε τουλάχιστον επιχειρήματα, όχι κλισέ χαρακτηρισμούς. Όπως και να έχει, ήρθες αργά, πάνω που έκλεινα. Τα λέμε!

[Anonymous No.2101087]

I agree with you from that perspective.

Anyway I must be going. Thanks for the talk /lit/, you're cool.

[Anonymous No.2101105]

>>2101076
i trust you support the KKE then?

:P XD

[Anonymous No.2102516]

>>2101105
Ακριβώς το αντίθετο, φίλε μου. Το post μου δεν ήταν υπέρ του (κοινωνικού) μαρξισμού.

[Anonymous No.2102521]

>>2101105
>KKE
>KIKE

[Anonymous No.2102526]

>>2102521
>COMMUNIST PARTY OF GREECE
>KIKES
Closer to the truth than you might think.