Are there any good books that go into detail, in an unbiased manner as possible (however much that may be), why socialism/communism (or any variant thereof) completely and utterly failed whenever it was attempted to be put into practice?

File: 120 KB, 1200x675, socialism_flag_1200x675.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sun Sep 18 15:58:46 2022 No.21007686 [Reply] [Original]

Are there any good books that go into detail, in an unbiased manner as possible (however much that may be), why socialism/communism (or any variant thereof) completely and utterly failed whenever it was attempted to be put into practice?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:04:45 2022 No.21007709 File: 110 KB, 1400x2124, sovl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21007686

Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:04:53 2022 No.21007711

>>21007686
Divisions within the movement were, and are, throughly exploited. The general goals remain just as necessary and attractive. The organization isn’t there for various reasons. But it doesn’t need centralized organization. It’s the opposite of centralization.
Just been reading about permaculture. Not all the practitioners think of themselves as socialists, but they’re working towards the same goals.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:05:53 2022 No.21007714 Yeah national socialism failed spectacularly

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:06:31 2022 No.21007718 >>21007686 Archie Brown's The Rise and Fall of Communism

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:07:35 2022 No.21007724 >>21007686 China exists you retard

Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:09:00 2022 No.21007733

>>21007714
while the failure of socialism proper is merely a proof of human weakness, the failure of national socialism is a proof of the existence of God. the only way something so true, so beautiful, so virtuous could fail was if its existence angered Him.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:11:05 2022 No.21007744 >>21007733 God isn’t angered by anything true, beautiful, or virtuous. Repent.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:11:35 2022 No.21007747 >>21007744 don't misunderstand, i'm saying that it would be those things but for the reality of God

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:11:54 2022 No.21007748 File: 17 KB, 333x499, 414O-nciUpL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21007686

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:12:35 2022 No.21007750 >>21007724 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system This is socialism?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:14:03 2022 No.21007754 >>21007750 Yes, retard. Read more instead of posting on /lit/

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:26:33 2022 No.21007810 >>21007709 Which is why China is doing so well (no pun intended) >>21007750 This is state socialism making capitalism do tricks for it before it implodes

Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:53:09 2022 No.21007940

>>21007686
Socialism did not “completely and utterly fail”. It was able to lift the most backward, impoverished nations of Europe and Asia and allow them to compete with western capitalist nations
>inb4 “youre a westerner who romanticizes socialism” I’m from Eastern Europe and my entire family grew up under communism all the way from the 40s to the 90s and they all say it was much better than capitalism today

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:54:08 2022 No.21007947 >>21007940 >socialism completely and utterly failed >it was much better than capitalism both of these things can be true

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 16:56:54 2022 No.21007964 >>21007724 >His best example of his retarded utopia is China

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 17:00:27 2022 No.21007987 >>21007964 >Me chud. Me no watch neuz >Me beleevz Atlantic Council statements

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 17:05:53 2022 No.21008002 File: 435 KB, 1600x900, ccp would be proud.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21007987

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 17:13:49 2022 No.21008053 >>21007686 Archie Brown's The Rise and Fall of Communism

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 17:31:28 2022 No.21008159 >>21008002 Me not state socialist. But if you’d open your slitty eyes some you’d see how they’ve manipulated markets and greedy pigs into quite a haul.

Anonymous Sun Sep 18 22:10:20 2022 No.21009406

>>21007810
>Which is why China is doing so well (no pun intended)
With the majority of their people living on 140 dollars a month, eat bugs, and don't even access to clean water.
>>21007940
> It was able to lift the most backward, impoverished nations of Europe and Asia
This isn't impressive considering Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore etc did it without communism, and did much better nor did they collapse.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 22:12:55 2022 No.21009416 >>21009406 russia's pathetic loss in ukraine shows what a bunch of paper tigers these places are

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 22:14:08 2022 No.21009420 >>21007810 china has lower gdp per capita than mexico. their nation is built on the backs of the peasant class

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 22:14:24 2022 No.21009421 >>21007810 They also have an unreported Incel problem and massive pollution problem but what do I know I'm just a dirty "sinophobe" I guess

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 22:19:41 2022 No.21009446 >>21009416 Russia's entire industrialization under Stalin was due to American engineers like Ford and Koch. The Soviet Union was always a shit country built on lies and Russia is no different.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 22:21:35 2022 No.21009459 File: 120 KB, 1126x840, 12375738574.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] who cares? Communism isn't significant anymore

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 22:25:34 2022 No.21009482 Everyone in this thread is retarded >>21007686 The right answer is Ludwig von Mises's Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis He explains how socialism is broken in theory and that's why it always fails.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 23:52:45 2022 No.21009877 >>21009446 No. It wasn't. OMG capes are so steeped in their delusions

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 18 23:55:48 2022 No.21009887 >>21007724 Well tbf they did fail miserable back during the great leap forward which was really the only attempt at socialism China has made

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 00:19:05 2022 No.21009986 >>21009482 mises didnt understand socialism

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 00:30:06 2022 No.21010026 >>21007964 Communism isn’t a utopia you retard, it’s the real movement which sublates the present state of things.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 00:31:07 2022 No.21010032 >>21009887 You don’t know what you’re talking about.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 00:33:06 2022 No.21010042 >>21010026 >Communism is when everything right now

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 00:40:13 2022 No.21010064 >>21010042 If you don’t want to read I can’t make you but stop being so dogmatic about something you don’t understand at all

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 00:52:01 2022 No.21010103

I dont understand how can you have socialism in any western country today.

When was the last time any of you worked with a hammer or a sickle? Does adult daycare you call office counts as industrial proleteriat? Babysitting excel file, gossipping and drinking coffee is a job? Half of you work as.. fashion experts, or at clickview corporations that dont produce anything.
Listen. I am a construction worker. But who the fuck else would inherit this 'worker revolution'? Brain dead, drugged out, face tattooed floor moppers and fast food servers? Im a construction worker and I am against socialism/communism.

There is maybe 2 or 3% of legitimate essential workers. The rest are pseudoworkers or welfare workers. This is the reality of labor. John Deere satellite navigated tractors and combines do all the farming. Mines too are mechanized to the point of 10 people operate mines that spawned mining towns in the past.
A worker's revolution would have a few heavy industry corporations own everything in society. A fucking psychologist gossiping about feelings or whatever is stereotypical work these days wouldnt own anything.

There is also nothing preventing you from owning the means of your individual production in capitalism, the issue is that 99.9% of society is unproductive. Everyone in this commune would be a central planner or a fashion/garden expert, no one would pour cement or even know how to mix concrete.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 01:02:26 2022 No.21010149

>>21010026
>Communism isn’t a utopia you retard, it’s the real movement which sublates the present state of things.
This is psued shit, and this just makes communists look retarded.
>I can't pay my bills, how do you intend to make to make life easier
"WELL YOU SEE, I CAN'T COMMUNISM IS THE REAL MOVEMENT TO UH ESTABLISH LE CURRENT THINGS!"
Why the fuck would anyone waste time with someone like you when you have solutions to problems people currently face - just useless psuedo-intellectualism

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 01:14:41 2022 No.21010187 >>21009406 Lol those countries used slave labor. Especially Japan

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 01:15:23 2022 No.21010190 >>21010187 >Lol those countries used slave labor They didn't have gulags - that was the Soviet Union

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 01:15:43 2022 No.21010193

>>21010026
Actual communism is a nebulous goal, yes, very utopian. And why can't we dream of greater things?
The road there is unsure. Sovietism, Dengism, Bookchin's ideals, uncle Ted's.
Will we allow the minority sociopaths whittle down the last of the cheap energy, murdering us in continual programs and tactics, so that we're easier to control? Or can we just organize and convert their foot-soldiers to the cause?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 01:16:59 2022 No.21010199 File: 111 KB, 344x499, 41z5P2PuNtL._SX342_BO1,204,203,200_.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21007686 somewhat related

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 02:05:59 2022 No.21010341

>>21007686
>unbiased manner as possible
It's not possible and you will not find a book like that. Failure or success of a socialist or communist structure relies on incentive. How to interpret incentive comes down to human nature, for which there is no objective answer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 02:09:25 2022 No.21010357 File: 63 KB, 850x400, 838923923892883838388383.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21007686 Was she right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 02:16:42 2022 No.21010378 >>21010357 She was never right. She made Reagan look smart by comparison. A blithering idiot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 02:32:51 2022 No.21010430 >>21010357 She was generally right, especially about that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 02:36:16 2022 No.21010443 >>21010430 You're as wrong as her. The both of you haven't the foggiest notion of the topic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 02:38:56 2022 No.21010449 >>21010443 The use of other people's money? Or what topic are you referring to?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 02:41:02 2022 No.21010459 >>21009986 how so

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 02:46:52 2022 No.21010477 >>21010449 The subject of the sentence >other people's money Is all the money Bezos has right now his? Why?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 02:47:07 2022 No.21010478 File: 20 KB, 306x475, 6419839.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 04:03:16 2022 No.21010686 >>21010149 The point is that it is not an ideological goal being applied mechanically to reality, but finding practical solutions to problems normal people face, like being able to pay bills and put food on the table.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 04:47:48 2022 No.21010798

>>21007686
First redpill about politics is that it's just a bunch of LARPing that people do to rationalize and justify stuff they already want to do. Lenin wants to take over Russia and rob everyone, how does he accumulate power? Tell the poor people he'll give them free shit.
>Rhetoric! and you believe it!

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 04:52:54 2022 No.21010809

>>21007686
You mean other than Communist China which is about to surpass the USA for #1 economy in the world? Or do you mean every European country which is openly Socialist and has WAY better metrics for their citizens (health, education, happiness, etc.) than the US?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 04:54:09 2022 No.21010812 >>21010809 >which is about to surpass the USA for #1 economy in the world It's weird how self proclaimed socialists will buy into the GDP number go up worship. >Or do you mean every European country which is openly Socialist nevermind this is bait.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 04:55:36 2022 No.21010815 >>21010357 If you have a sovereign currency, the state can infinitely print money. So no, such a state will never run out of money. The real threat is hyperinflation, but that broad was too stupid to make a witty saying that was accurate.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 04:57:25 2022 No.21010821 File: 219 KB, 1200x1186, Socialism.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21010812 This you bro?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:00:34 2022 No.21010831 >>21010821 >It's another chapter of everyone having their own pet definition of the word "socialism" What means of production have the workers of Norway seized, how is it a dictatorship of the proletariat?

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:04:04 2022 No.21010841

>>21007686
Works of Charles Fourier, one of very few socialist "thinkers" who bothered to describe outcome of building utopia in detail and Chris-chan level schizophrenic will do that for you.
He is very unpopular in this day and age for some reason, even though he stands at the origin and shit by people like Marx is secondary and was mostly used to turn his relatively innocent schizo fantasies into radical extremist cult. Socialism is something like that
>We must kill the porky and everyone who wears glasses and subject people to inefficient bureaucratic rule to achieve utopia!
>But what will utopia be? How will it look like?
>...
>...
>shieeeeeeeeeet

If you know about Fourier you would know that last line is supposed to be
>Whole Earth will transform into soft Mediterranean climate and oceans will become sweet like lemonade and shit
Which will let you to comprehensively understand that socialism/communism (or any variant thereof) completely and utterly failed whenever it was attempted to be put into practice because it's a religious cult for retards completely disconnected from reality.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:06:04 2022 No.21010847 >>21010831 High taxes which are then redistributed to the general population is often deemed socialist, but that's probably too nuanced for you to understand.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:07:28 2022 No.21010849 >>21010831 Uhh, pretty sure like half of the oil production in Norway is nationalized

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:07:28 2022 No.21010850 >>21010847 >socialism is when high taxes you fell for the american conservaboomer meme.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:07:59 2022 No.21010852

>>21010831
The SWF exists outside of ordinary scope value-form requirements of bourgeois control and is arguably less under bourgeois / value-form control than the economy of the RSFSR / Soviet Union was. This is not an argument that a proletariat has seized the SWF, but an argument that capital has been so backfooted in Norway that the commonweal has been forced into control by a state which is disciplined when it too obviously caters to the international monetary market. The SWF exists outside of the norms of neo-liberal monetarism to the extent that other small economies such as Australia have been viciously disciplined for maintaining remnants of the Fordist compromise whereas Norway embodies a new compromise between class and state-as-bourgeoisie-in-general which exceeds any past examples in Fordism, and, arguably, the Soviet Union as an example as the fit and proper purpose of the SWF is not expansion of the value-form in general as it was 1927-1955 in the Soviet Union.

Read cunt. Althusser/Poulantzas or Autonomism.

your gross ignorance is distracting me from my anime.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:10:20 2022 No.21010860 >>21010850 Except oil production is literally nationalized in Norway

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:12:13 2022 No.21010862 >>21010821 So I take is from this pic is that socialism is oil gravy train? But what are nations who didn't get lucky enough to have oil deposits on their territory supposed to do?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:14:33 2022 No.21010868 >>21010862 Countries who have low natural resources are going to generally be poor anyway. Every rich country has a "gravy train", it's just whether the gravy goes only to the top private owners or go to benefit the whole citizenry

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:20:24 2022 No.21010881

>>21010868
Find me a country that exports large amount of resourced where population doesn't get the cut. Although apparently you don't understand what cut is and in which form it comes.
For example Russia barely produces anything that is exported and paid for in dollars, main source of its dollars are natural resources sold for those. There are things that Russia can't produce and can't buy for its own currency, only for dollars, such as modern consumer electronics. However somehow plebs in Russia acquire consumer electronics. Where do their dollars come from if resource trade there isn't "nationalized" and porky takes all of it?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:25:08 2022 No.21010890 >>21010860 As all energy should be. Only made men hand that shit over to billionaires

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:26:38 2022 No.21010895 >>21010831 IT'S ALL THERE IN THE PICTURE. TOO MANY WORDS???

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:28:33 2022 No.21010897
File: 27 KB, 1490x1224, Wealthv2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21010881
What are you even asking? Do you mean to imply wealth isn't concentrated heavily in Russia? Also, if you are implying the general public has access to cheap trinkets, yes, that is a great asset of capitalism, but in terms of actual wealth (NOT CONSOOOOMABLES) it is extremely concentrated in countries that emphasize the free market and less concentrated in countries that have high social spending.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:33:36 2022 No.21010912 >>21010831 Imagine being this retarded. That pic is literally agreeing that Norway isn't socialist, they just have good policies, yet retarded boomers think any government policies which universally increase all citizens' prospects is socialism.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:39:07 2022 No.21010931

>>21010897
What is "actual wealth"?

>that have high social spending
Oh so we're about "social spending" now? What happened to socialism?
It still remains a question who is supposed to spend for social spending in nations that don't have free shit that can be sold to someone else lying under their feet? Or if they don't sell it because of strategic interests?

Yes it's cool if you're in Norway and there are huge natural resources which you can sell and afford high standard of living for your relatively small population, and it's normal that such income is evenly distributed because it's not fruit of anyone's merit, it just was there. But what are nations that don't maintain their prosperity by importing someone else's good supposed to do?

Another part that everyone seems to miss is that all those exemplary "social spending" nations are completely free from having to invest in their defenses because US taxpayer already paid for that. Modern military is extremely expensive and resource intensive. If US disappears tomorrow, most of social spending will shortly follow it because those people will have to pay for their own security.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:55:11 2022 No.21010962 >>21010931 Look up Georgism. You don't need resources, just land rent since land is "not fruit of anyone's merit, it just was there".

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 05:59:18 2022 No.21010974 >>21010931 >The USA cucks it's populace with excessive military spending to protect citizens in other countries Yes, the USA spending is beyond retarded, most people know this already

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 06:06:07 2022 No.21010989

>>21010974
US is in position when it can't afford to pull out of this endeavor, because it will undermine its global hegemony and as a result it will end up in even worse state. It tried to grab world domination after ww2, and for some time it was even working (le trad 50s /pol/tards masturbate to was a period of absolutely unprecedented wealth and affluence exactly because US managed to set up situation that resulted in ruination of every single other major power and itself becoming world's only center of power consolidation, and not because it was "trad"), but now, that circumstance capital has run out and they became hostage of situation when dumping resources into global military presence is lesser evil.

Why do you think US tries so fucking hard to cause escalation and full scale conflict in Europe by provoking Russia - if they succeed, it will bring new 50s for them.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 06:11:26 2022 No.21010997
File: 37 KB, 881x505, Capture.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21010989
I disagree, I think globalism will be the permanent paradigm because of technology and how cheap it is to move product around the world. Why settle for expensive domestic labor when there is an endless supply of essentially slave labor in 3rd world countries? Also, the current trend among capitalist types is to wage all out war on unions, so the 50s style unionized workforce will never arise again under the capitalist reign.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 06:23:34 2022 No.21011018

>>21010103
so you're saying that 99% of workers under really existing capitalism are unproductive, so socialism will fail because 99% of the workers will be unproductive therefore we must remain steadfastly capitalist because it's the ideal economic system?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 06:26:01 2022 No.21011025 >>21010103 Not to sound condescending, but you should probably learn the difference between communism and socialism before speaking on the subject

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 07:03:23 2022 No.21011129 >>21011025 Stop babbling, communism is an utopia which "hasn't been ever reached yet" according to your own words so everyone but you fucking morons talk about practically implemented systems.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 07:05:58 2022 No.21011133 >>21011025 Fucking idiots ruled half of the world for 70 years, "haven't reached communism yet", but tell us to tell the difference. Between their delusions it seems.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 07:06:37 2022 No.21011135 Schumpeter

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 07:22:00 2022 No.21011165 >>21007750 Do they really work 12 hours wtf?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 09:13:52 2022 No.21011421 File: 1.61 MB, 4000x3000, 16635787418733538399894602285331.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >debunks Marx in Italian Nulla di personale, figliuolo...

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 09:55:57 2022 No.21011539
File: 78 KB, 680x383, 1663557215768.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21010103
>There is maybe 2 or 3% of legitimate essential workers. The rest are pseudoworkers or welfare workers. This is the reality of labor. John Deere satellite navigated tractors and combines do all the farming. Mines too are mechanized to the point of 10 people operate mines that spawned mining towns in the past.
I'm no expert on Marxist theory but that should be (according to that theory) part of the problem for capitalism over the long term, since Marxism has the "Labor Theory of Value." Since the machines don't add new value -- although they can make production more efficient -- the overall rate of profit in the economy will decline over time, since you still have to pay for / upgrade / maintain the machines. So that is a problem for the advanced capitalist economies, they can't generate much economic growth, and the profit-seeking logic of the system seeks profits elsewhere, which leads to various kinds of asset and financial speculation which intensifies the tendency of the system to enter into various economic crises like the 2008 financial crash.

Also this is what the "Great Reset" is really about, turn the population from homeowners into renters so monopoly finance can persist for awhile longer by extracting rents from the population. There's also the privatization of what were once public utilities which is another opportunity to extract fees and rents, but then that also raises the cost of production and renders the economy uncompetitive against, say, China.

>>21007964
Well it exists and the ruling party officially believes in Marxism and that is being reemphasized:
https://youtu.be/U1qCtjbnj3E

You don't have to like it or even think it's a good model or believe that it can even be exported, but I think this is what the conflict between the U.S. and China is really about, because from the U.S. vantage point, China is an existential threat to the global expansion of financialized rentier wealth. The U.S. (or rather the monopoly capitalists who control the country) don't want countries from socializing their financial systems, land and natural resources, or keeping their infrastructure and utilities publicly-owned to prevent them from being monopolized in private hands to siphon off economic rents at the expense of productive investment in economic growth.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 09:58:42 2022 No.21011545 >>21007709 >"Basic Economics" >written by someone born and raised in a capitalist system The only thing that economics has proven thus far is that no economic system can last indefinitely There is no such thing as "basic economics"

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 09:59:31 2022 No.21011547

Any refutation of communism is also (unintentionally) a refutation for whatever other retarded ephemeral system of government the writer is shilling for. Because the logic used to refute one system essentially can be used to refute them all. Anarchy is the answer.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 10:37:23 2022 No.21011647

>>21011539
Also you see the U.S. outsource production starting in the 70s, which would inject profit into the system (b/c lower labor costs) and extend a lifeline, but that is a problem when labor costs rise. Basically, China took advantage of a contradiction in the world capitalist system to develop itself, but its own development has now come into contradiction with it, so the U.S. wants to oust the CCP so it can get in there and privatize everything like it did to Russia in the 90s. China doesn't want that to happen and has studied the mistakes of the Soviet Union and is now reemphasizing Marxism as its guiding ideology as the U.S. gets increasingly schizo and elects belligerent, semi-fascist leaders like Trump who blame China and a nefarious global conspiracy for why the U.S. is in relative decline, but the sources for that decline are structural and can be found in the logic of the capitalist system itself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 10:51:02 2022 No.21011683 >>21011647 Is this what mental illness looks like?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 13:27:02 2022 No.21012076 >>21011683 I'll leave it up to the lurkers to decide. But it's basically what a lot of Chinese professors and journals including the CCP's own publications say about the situation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 13:30:53 2022 No.21012087 >>21007686 Djilas' The New Class

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 13:56:12 2022 No.21012153 >>21010847 Some have argued you're a faggot

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 14:01:40 2022 No.21012171 >>21011165 Chinese in general are not productive, but I'm sure there are some firms that work people long hours.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 14:32:00 2022 No.21012289

>>21007686
Not even a Trot, but The Revolution Betrayed is a good introduction to the problems faced by revolutions in the third world. Also Lenin's speeches and writings on the New Economic Policy show the precariousness faced by the Soviets after the defeat of the German revolution.
All other posts here are completely retarded and show a serious unfamiliarity with actual communist theory. Shame!

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 14:44:54 2022 No.21012339

>>21012289 (me)
A good read on the problems faced: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/nov/04b.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/jul/x03.htm
Lenin and the Bolsheviks were completely aware of the difficulties and the uphill battle they faced. Namely:
>The standard of living in Russia is undoubtedly lower than in Germany, and when we established the dictatorship, this led to the workers beginning to go more hungry and to their conditions becoming even worse. The workers’ victory cannot be achieved without sacrifices, without a temporary deterioration of their conditions. We must tell the workers the very opposite of what Crispien has said. If, in desiring to prepare the workers for the dictatorship, one tells them that their conditions will not be worsened “too much”, one is losing sight of the main thing, namely, that it was by helping their “own” bourgeoisie to conquer and strangle the whole world by imperialist methods, with the aim of thereby ensuring better pay for themselves, that the labour aristocracy developed. If the German workers now want to work for the revolution they must make sacrifices, and not be afraid to do so.
Expectedly, the Germans chose Hitler and genocide over sacrificing for the greater good long-term. A successful revolution today would require a firm commitment of third world peoples, etc.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 14:46:00 2022 No.21012344 File: 24 KB, 640x360, 1663598755099.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Lesson learned: never trust a cracker to do the right thing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 14:47:55 2022 No.21012347 >>21011165 >>21012171 It’s very common in the tech sector, a.k.a. their mega giant corporations like Alibaba and Tencent

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 14:51:06 2022 No.21012356 >>21007686 Communism is materialistic, it ironically has the exact same key flaw as capitalism: it says money is the most important thing in life.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 14:51:44 2022 No.21012361

>>21011647
China has the second most billionaires in the world and will soon have the most while those living in the countryside far from the coast subside on wages more equivalent to africans than first worlders. They have some of the largest corporations in the world that treat their employees like shit.

Don’t hold them up as some sort of socialist ideal just because you want to get a win. They’re nothing more than capitalists and if you don’t see them as that then you have no idea what socialism is fighting for.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 14:55:20 2022 No.21012374 >>21012356 wow so true anon you really havite all figured out

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 14:57:32 2022 No.21012384 >>21012374 Yes. Death to corruption.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 15:00:23 2022 No.21012395 File: 48 KB, 564x564, 1663599608994.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21012384

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 15:33:30 2022 No.21012507

>>21012356
Communism isn't compatible with human nature. Communism can only work if men were perfect, and could never be selfish or irrational. Capitalism works well because it predicts men are selfish, and that their irrational behavior will doom them with mistakes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 15:34:38 2022 No.21012510 >>21012339 >>21012289 No one cares, pseud

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 15:36:39 2022 No.21012517

>>21010686
But you're not finding practical solutions to things like climate change or inflation. You're just wasting peoples' time. The only people who are serious about politics are liberals, conservatives and libertarians. You're only serious about staying on SSI and unemployment benefits.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 15:38:40 2022 No.21012524
File: 86 KB, 1440x840, bWVkaWEvRmM2YWE0MGFNQUFfVlkxLmpwZz9uYW1lPW9yaWc=.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21011647
What decline of the US are retards like you talking about? The only people who speak of a decline in the US are socialists who live in shit holes like Los Angeles, and retarded boomers who watch the news. Most Americans would disagree with the assertion their lives are bad.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 15:43:32 2022 No.21012540 >>21010997 >EPI The EPI is not a legitimate source, its literally funded by George Soros and Union bureaucrats. Its fucking propaganda.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 15:52:58 2022 No.21012558 >>21011545 Thank you >>21012344 What about a True Craka?

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 15:59:28 2022 No.21012584

>>21011539
I haven't seen this massive China pseud in a while. Must be school starting up.
>since Marxism has the "Labor Theory of Value."
You can tell this guy is a pseud. Marx never had a "labor theory of value" - he never did. He only had a law of value which was debunked centuries ago by Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk. In fact, in the first few chapters of Marx mocked the idea he had a LTV by saying a lazy created something with more value by taking more time to make a product.
>Since the machines don't add new value -- although they can make production more efficient
This is also wrong too using Marx's own equations. Without constant capital, a worker can not create something with surplus value. No cotton - no pillow. But even the whole Marxist conception of value is ridiculous. Without use-value, there is no exchange-value. Variable capital can not make anything of value without the initial utility of a product. The value of a commodity does not stem from human labor, but human use - its "use-value"; the qualitative aspect of a good that Marx ignores in his theory, yet contradicts his entire system. Workers working on something doesn't make something intrinsically have value - goods only have value when they fulfill a human need - a use. Your understanding of machines is also really poor. Automation only leads towards micro-management. Automation has not undermined capitalism, but has made it stronger by eliminating any resistance to it through atomization. We see this with the rise of the service economy and independent contractors. We're only going to see the specialization of labor make the world more competitive as manual labor becomes less important while the engineering aspects of capital become the bottleneck driving human progress forward.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:05:44 2022 No.21012600

There are no legitimate criticisms of capitalism.

>muh buzzwords, muh latestage, muh tendency of profit to fall, infinite growth, [...]
They have been saying this since the 19th century. Profits are fine, check the biggest corporations, they are listed on stock exchanges so they have to publish their profits. Profitable corporations dont need you or your criticism to be profitable. Human needs arent really infinite so infinite growth meme is retarded.

>capitalism bad because monopolies, so what we really need is an even bigger mega monopoly that not only controls absolutely everything but you dont even get to own property
How would this help? Big corporations are the most communistic entities in capitalism. They are centrally planned monopolies that exist thanks to regulations, government contracts and tax subsidies, not thanks to free market. Where we dont have enough of free market, we get these communistic corporations that everyone hates.

>capitalism sucks because i am unskilled uneducated unmarketable individual who instead of medical/engineering degrees, high income and job security spent my 20ies collecting instead felonies, debt, gucci lattes, face tattoos, narcotics, art degrees or investing in pseud academia pyramid schemes (most degree mills today), etc
Sounds like a you problem buddy. Nothing to do with capitalism. Everyone in capitalism can make it, it all depends on your personal responsibility and productivity.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:12:18 2022 No.21012623 >>21007686 Simply put, the end prophecy of communism is no hierarchy. However, communists try to achieve this by abusing hierarchy to implement a flawed view of economics.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:16:24 2022 No.21012640 >>21012600 You're literally talking to yourself on an image board. Seek help.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:18:01 2022 No.21012645 >>21012584 Holy fuck you're retarded.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:22:59 2022 No.21012676 >>21012645 Nice rebuttal, retard. I accept your concession,

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:25:24 2022 No.21012685

You can't even explain how labor determines the value of a commodity when commodities can have value without variable and constant capital. Marxists can't even answer a simple question every time its brought up without proving they've never read Marx or understand his theory of value. Every time this is brought up, they shut up.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:28:07 2022 No.21012696 >>21007686 socialism simply doesn't work. that's why the united states armed and funded right-wing paramilitary groups and overthrew democratically elected socialist up and down latin america instead of letting socialism fail on its own.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:35:04 2022 No.21012734 >>21011647 >>>/infrared/

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:35:15 2022 No.21012737 >>21012696 Yes. Should have just let them continue on their way towards becoming Venezuela and North Korea. Such wonderful nations I’m sure you’d love living there.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:38:22 2022 No.21012752 >>21012339 Why do all ideologies end up promoting austerity for a greater good that never comes?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:49:53 2022 No.21012841 >>21012696 Maybe the US wouldn't have done that if the Soviet Union had not been overthrowing capitalist governments in the Baltics, and use front organizations in Western European countries to overthrow their governments?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 16:52:03 2022 No.21012855 >>21012696 I don't recall the US government overthrowing the governments of Cuba and Venezuela - yet those failed

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:18:32 2022 No.21012987 >>21012855 people this ignorant about things which are currently still happening shouldn't be talking about politics.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:21:08 2022 No.21012994 >>21012987 Yeah, you shouldn't talk about politics if you're a communist and a leftist, like yourself. You really are ignorant and stupid. And its no wonder you will never have any power in our society.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:23:11 2022 No.21013001 >>21012685 Marx didn’t create a theory of value you fucking idiot he was using one that already existed and is still correct.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:23:30 2022 No.21013003 >>21010852 >Poulantzas Is this pseud really impressive to non-Greeks?

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:25:43 2022 No.21013015

>>21013001
>Marx didn’t create a theory of value
Where in that post did that Anon say Marx created a theory of value? You are illiterate, and are calling people stupid.
Nothing he said was correct - the revolutions of 1989 made him irrelevant. No one takes him or you seriously. You are the political equivalent of a lolcow.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:27:14 2022 No.21013020 >>21013015 Your view of communism is entirely based on hearsay and Russia. 1989 was a long time ago. China is the most powerful country in the world and you will continue to seethe.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:27:15 2022 No.21013021

>>21010852
>>21013001
Why is every Marxist on /lit/ a massive pseud?
Poulantzas and Althusser were complete jokes. Althusser was a schizo killed his own fucking wife, and Poulantzas killed himself. Those are the people you are recommending? Holy fuck you are stupid.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:27:18 2022 No.21013022 are /pol/tards really that stupid or have they perfected the art of acting so retarded that the other party becomes exasperated and gives up?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:28:55 2022 No.21013036 >>21013021 I’m not that anon but literally all you need to read is Stalin.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:32:53 2022 No.21013054

>>21013020
>Hersay
The Holodomor, The Great Chinese Famine, The Crimean Tatar Genocide, The Polish NKVD Operations, the Ethnic Cleansing of the Baltic by the Soviet Union, the Guangdong Cultural Revolution Massacre, The Tienanmen Square Massacre, Uyghur genocide, the suppression of the German Protests of 1953, Prague Spring, Ceaușescu's and Enver Hoxha's concentration camps are all just heresy. All those books from primary sources, eye witnesses are still alive from those events - are all fake. And you and the handful of unemployed NEET communists from leftypol, like yourself, who post here daily are telling the truth about communism in practice. That's your claim, correct?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:34:01 2022 No.21013062 >>21013036 Why would I read a pedophile, and a genocidal schizophrenic who killed more communists than Hitler and was even denounced by his own communist party for being a brutal dictator?

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:36:21 2022 No.21013070

Althusser - a manic who murdered his wife
Poulantzas - mentally ill guy who commited suicide
Stalin - pedophile, one the most prolific mass murderers known to man
>YO READ THESE PEOPLE FOR ENLIGHTENED TAKES ABOUT THE WORLD LIKE I HAVE
LMAO these commie niggers are something else

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:36:59 2022 No.21013077
File: 222 KB, 1600x1200, Anatoly Karlin tank.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21007733
God hates commies.

https://www.unz.com/akarlin/sixth-proof/

>Those who wage war on God are unmade by God.

>And their descendants, too.

>Russians betrayed their fatherland and committed regicide in 1917-1918, and the abominations this spawned in Moscow and Berlin turned their children into mincemeat (it wiped out 40% of the 20-40 y/o male cohort: A literal sacrifice of firstborns). The bloodletting was especially concentrated in Nazi-occupied Russia and Belorussia, which constituted the core of Bolshevik support in the Civil War, while White-supporting Siberia got off lighter.

>While the Russians did not create the Bolshevik regime, all too many of them sat quietly on the sidelines while demons in human form murdered the priests, looted the churches, and mocked Him with impunity. Their punishment was to be themselves murdered by the millions in terror-famines, purges, and the Gulag. The Old Bolshevik sadists were themselves liquidated in turn during the late 1930s. The Russian aristocracy, having betrayed its Sovereign, would be annihilated within their own country, their daughters taken by zealots from the shtetls; or slowly dissolve into nothingness in its exile abroad.

>Appropriately, the Jews and Balts paid an extremely heavy price for their disproportionate contribution to the murder of God’s representative on Earth and their critical role in supporting the Bolshevik regime.
>The Latvians were the only peoples in the Russian Empire to free vote in their majority for the Bolsheviks, and would play a critical role in suppressing revolts against Bolshevik power in the first year of the Civil War.

>The Jews sided with the Bolsheviks soon after, and would account for 40% of the Soviet state’s domestic security organs from ~1920 to the late 1930s. Ashkenazi Jews, Latvians, and Estonians are unique in that there are fewer of them today than in 1918.
>East European Jewry in particular got annihilated root and stem.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:39:16 2022 No.21013095 >>21013021 I'm surprised by the Poulantzas recommendation. It would be like telling people to read DNC shills, like Adolph Reed and Cornel West, to understand Marxism and socialism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 17:41:02 2022 No.21013105 >>21013095 When someone drops Poulantzas you know they're a pseud

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 19:54:11 2022 No.21013796 >>21011129 >>21011133 Norway has nationalized their oil. Quick question, does that make them communist or socialist or something else?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 19:58:16 2022 No.21013825 >>21012855 >Cuba >Anon missed the decades long embargo by the USA

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 19:59:48 2022 No.21013832 File: 73 KB, 720x900, 1644499192168.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21011547 Finally somebody with a working brain.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 20:05:20 2022 No.21013860 >>21013796 Quick norway has multiple corporations with privately held means of production. What does that make them?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 20:09:23 2022 No.21013878 >>21007709 Fpbp

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 20:18:12 2022 No.21013931 File: 14 KB, 220x148, Tank_Man_(Tiananmen_Square_protester).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21007724 It certainly does

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 20:19:26 2022 No.21013936 >>21007940 Liar

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 20:24:48 2022 No.21013965

Its amazing how you shill retards like Marx when people like Henry George and Proudhon were so much better
>>21013825
We don't embargo Cuba. Sanctions aren't the same an embargo, you fucking retard. Actually learn what those terms mean. Cuba still receives goods and services from the US. Sanctions only mean US businesses can not operate in Cuba.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 20:27:57 2022 No.21013987 >>21013931 Going to rile up the bugs and 12yos with that picture -- please delete before this shit board gets even worse.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 22:14:21 2022 No.21014442 >>21013987 half of /tv/ shitposts here now, it's over

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 22:18:39 2022 No.21014469 >>21013987 It's a phony stunt pic anyway. They just shewed him away

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 22:45:11 2022 No.21014606 >>21013860 A mixed socialist and capitalist country, there I spoonfed you baby's first political economic fact.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 22:47:25 2022 No.21014620 File: 138 KB, 758x712, EMBARGO.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21013965 You are a literal retard. Be better. Also Georgism was mentioned earlier in this exact thread >>21010962

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 22:48:11 2022 No.21014623 >>21014606 You got it! I see you’re not as retarded as you seem!

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 22:53:15 2022 No.21014636 >>21014623 Therefore the most successful countries in the world exist under capitalism tempered by socialism. Furthermore, countries less socialist than Norway should move to have a greater mix of socialism in their countries.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 22:54:44 2022 No.21014641 >>21014636 Absolutely! They all just need to dig up that reserve of oil they’ve all got lying around they can sell to pay for everything.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 22:57:21 2022 No.21014657 >>21014641 Or simply nationalize whatever industry their country is based on.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:10:35 2022 No.21014706 >>21014620 >Wikipedia Is not a source, retard. And more over, an embargo isn't even a coup, dumbass. Just because the US decides we don't want to trade with you doesn't mean we are overthrowing your shitty, failed government.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:14:59 2022 No.21014732

>>21014620
Your own source says its a sanction though - embargo is not the same an sanction. An embargo would be if the US used its navy to block goods to Cuba, retard. We still do trade with Cuba - Cuba receives millions of dollars of food and remittances from the United States. More over, the "embargo" doesn't even apply to the European Union - Cuba's biggest trading partner.
But this is irrelevant - we're not ending sanctions on Cuba.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:18:18 2022 No.21014747 File: 38 KB, 250x322, HumanActionFirst.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21007686 Read pic related. >>21007810 >Which is why China is doing so well Look at per capita figures.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:28:10 2022 No.21014791 >>21013832 Based Bakuninposter.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:29:50 2022 No.21014794

>>21014747
China is rising, the US is failing. It is because they're industrializing and the US are deindustrializing. Yes, this is all under capitalism. China does more free market than the US even. Weird caveats mind you, but US oligarchy is not a good model, I hazard to guess Mises would agree.
But it's all coming to a crashing halt and I think China sees it as much as the WEF

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:30:55 2022 No.21014795
File: 41 KB, 500x300, Bakunin on socialism.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21013832
>>21011547
>Anarchy is the answer.
Correct. The issue is that most socialists hold the incorrect notion that "anarchy" means "direct democracy", thus a democratic assembly can't possibly be authoritarian in nature. This is of course false, since it mistakes a system of decision making (ie democracy) with the degree of State control over the lives of the people.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:33:43 2022 No.21014803

>>21014794
>China does more free market than the US even
>US oligarchy
Go outside for once in your life.
>China is rising, the US is failing.
People said the exact same shit about Japan in the 80's, and Japan was growing at a much quicker rate than China is today.
China will face demographic collapse before the end of this century.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:35:12 2022 No.21014810
File: 590 KB, 928x956, UNEMBARGO.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21014706
>>21014732
>WHAAAAH WHAAAAH WIKIPEDIA
Shut the fuck up you mental reprobates, literally everyone everywhere knows the USA embargo on Cuba. But let me guess, the UN is also an unreliable source and it doesn't mean anything that they call it an embargo? Eat shit and die faggots.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:38:05 2022 No.21014820 >>21014810 >United Nations The same United States that added North Korea on their human rights council? Fuck off, retard. Don't care. Don't want sanctions? Don't steal US property, and don't harbor terrorists who've killed US citizens. Simple as.

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:40:07 2022 No.21014830

>>21014810
>Wikipedia
>United Nations
Go back to ChapoTrapHouse, pedophile. And fuck Cuba. The argument was that we overthrew Cuba's government. We never did, and not trading with your shit hole isn't an coup. Learn how to read and get off 4chan, commie cuck.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:40:24 2022 No.21014832 >>21014820 >USA tries to own a sovereign country's oil production >Sovereign country kicks the USA out >"DON'T STEAL FROM THE USA, YOUR COUNTRY BELONGS TO US, OKAY?!" lol. lmao.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:41:25 2022 No.21014835 >>21014830 >Backpedaling at break neck pace Careful there buddy, you might hurt yourself

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:46:47 2022 No.21014859 >>21014832 >US gives Cuba independence from Spain >Cuba returns the favor >Communists come to power, steal everything >US says "we won't trade with you anymore." >Communists: WHAT I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS - THIS IS A HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION Lmao

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:48:26 2022 No.21014864

>>21014835
There was no back-pedaling. You claimed the US overthrew Cuba's government because we put sanctions on what we trade with them. That's retarded, and kinda shows why nobody takes claims by leftists seriously when you don't know the difference between a coup and an sanction.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:51:03 2022 No.21014878 I betcha he's reply will be the US supported Batista when the initial sanctions were against him and not even Castro. Leftists are so retarded they don't understand basic Cuban history while talking to actual American Cubans.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:52:53 2022 No.21014881 >we

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:54:24 2022 No.21014889

>>21009406
These countries all got gigantic western subsidies, Korea especially. At one point 80% of government revenues were foreign aid from the US. Japan and Taiwan are also both practically US protectorates. All of these countries are also not great places to live unless you're in the upper class as you get turbo fucked otherwise. Military dictatorships also common denominator.

Perhaps these are all things that you're willing to accept as opposed to communism, but the majority of the time opposition to communism comes from people who decry the curtailment of civil liberties - which is also a common denominator in all the countries mentioned. 20th century communism pretty awful in the major instances (USSR, China) but seemed to be doing interesting things in minor experiments that did not get to continue (Burkina Faso, Chile). One possible lesson to take from 20th century communism is that if you want your socialist state to survive it has to militarize and consolidate its revolution or it gets subverted, but then you create an authoritarian hell hole that eventually becomes functionally non-communist anyways (Vietnam, China, North Korea).

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:58:45 2022 No.21014906

>>21014803
>People said Japan was Industrializing.
They're an island. The 80s was a long time ago, and China has been doing this slow rise for about 30 years. They will sink back down again, capitalism is unstable like that, and they likely are preparing for it. One way to prepare is to make strong alliances with the rest of the world. The mass of the world doesn't like western colonialism or neocolonialism. We're all going to face demographic collapse, but the question is, will it be because the US are going to launch nukes because it can't hold onto its hegemony? Or will they use more biological and chemical weapons to do it

>>21014795
Damn straight

Anonymous Mon Sep 19 23:59:43 2022 No.21014910

>>21014889
>These countries all got gigantic western subsidies,
So what? So did the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union got tremendously help from the US to industrialize in the 1930s and Lend Lease. That just makes communism worse - clearly the funding went to better use since the other countries are doing much better these days than the Warsaw Pact.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 00:02:51 2022 No.21014917

>>21014889
>you want your socialist state to survive it has to militarize
Actually, no. Because even the existing "socialist states" are not even socialist. They're just capitalist countries. The 20th century has established socialism is a complete failure as an idea and practice, and not even the militarization will ensure it. It will just create a dictatorship that treats their citizens like garbage, and no one should take the idea of socialism seriously, In fact, it makes the Neo-conservative argument against socialism even stronger since the atrocities of these regimes justify their suppression.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 00:06:52 2022 No.21014934 >>21014917 socialism/communism is a movement - the labour movement to be precise - not an idea.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 00:13:58 2022 No.21014956

>>21014934
You're making horrifically bad arguments. The Soviet Union did receive enormous aid from the during the 1920s, 1930s and even during World War II. They even got more aid from us in the 1960s since we had quasi-normal relations with them due to Khrushchev and Brezhnev rapprochement with us at the mayhem of Mao Zedong. Fuck, even in the 1970s the Soviets were begging us for grain imports. We never stopped doing a whole lot of trade with the Soviets.
And your statements on China are completely wrong too. China stopped being socialist a long time ago. Ever since Deng de-collectivized the agricultural co-operatives and peoples' communes based on common property ownership - China has moved towards privatization and markets. Xi has said they will never return to a planned economy. They're as capitalist as it comes with their stock markets, billionaires, and major corporations such as Walmart servicing people commodities. Even ignoring that, China is a member of the World Bank, World Trade Organization and IMF. Calling China a "socialist state" is retarded, and this is largely why socialism is seen as ridiculously - the ends clearly never justify the means because you never achieve your goals even with all the tyranny. That's why Khrushchev was mocked, ridiculed often for saying "Socialism will come as soon 1983!" Marxism, socialism are complete jokes of ideology not worth anyone's time.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 00:20:22 2022 No.21014985

>>21014889
20th century only proved that communism, socialism is utopian, self-destructive, tyrannical and that best form of government is a capitalistic republic one with strong safety net like the one we see in places like Norway due to flat and land taxes.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 00:26:09 2022 No.21015020

Nobody wants Marxism-Leninism, Anarchism or any of the utopian beliefs you want. They want subsidized healthcare, housing, food and education with some labor protections. All of which is do-able with simple reforms. Nobody wants to destroy society, and start from nothing like dumb-ass communists. People have skin in the game, and only want minor concessions that are do-able in their life time. They don't want stupid, ephemeral movements that can not be connected to material reality.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 00:26:33 2022 No.21015024

>>21010809
Yeah bro china is totally communist.... just dont look into Dengism or the fact they have a stock market and their entire fucking economy is run by private individuals and real estate speculation. Its closer to a hyper corrupted form of national socialism if anything.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 01:13:09 2022 No.21015229 >>21015024 Bubububut they have unions! Well actually it's only one union but it's really big. And it's of course controlled and operated by the state.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 09:23:25 2022 No.21016625 >>21015024 Communists >"NO, THOSE FAILED STATES WEREN'T COMMUNIST EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE EXPLICITLY COMMUNIST!" Capitalist >"NO, THOSE SUCCESSFUL STATES WEREN'T COMMUNIST EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE EXPLICITLY COMMUNIST!" kek

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 10:07:59 2022 No.21016724 >>21014889 >Chile >socialist Socialist Party plurality in power due to other parties' support =/= socialist state Trying to forcibly trasform it into one caused the end of its democratic legitimacy and the coup

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 10:36:57 2022 No.21016779 >>21016625 Heck yeah! Now do the explicitly democratic republic of north korea! That’ll show how smart even retarded sacks of shit like you can be!

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 10:53:23 2022 No.21016809 As someone with an autistic interest in Marxism and Marxist-Leninist countries, I legit cannot understand why people take this shit seriously post 1989.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 13:06:10 2022 No.21017073 >>21016809 Wage labour engenders communism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 13:08:42 2022 No.21017083 >>21007686 People like owning shit and dont like being told what to do by academic morons unless they threaten you with death or gulags.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 13:22:47 2022 No.21017125 >>21016625 Name one successful communist state. And if you think China is an example of success just because the party is called Communist then you’re more retarded then most commies I've met.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:02:59 2022 No.21017281

>>21007750
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
>This is socialism?

>is a work schedule practiced by some companies in the People's Republic of China
>Critics argue that the 996 working hour system is a violation of Chinese Labour Law
>Jack Ma stated that workers should consider 996 "a huge blessing" as there is no way to "achieve the success [one] want[s] without paying extra effort and time
>News outlets noted a lack of public appearances from Ma between October 2020 and January 2021, coinciding with a regulatory crackdown on his businesses

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:10:02 2022 No.21017298

>>21017281
Crackdown on his business has nothing to do with 996, they still work those hours, also it is common practice all over the huge tech corporation such as Ten Cent and Huawei.

But let me guess, you didnt know anything about that because your knowledge of chinese business culture, which you believe to be socialist, only extends as far as wikipedia footnotes. Come to Shenzhen you ignorant twat and still see if you think this is a socialist country.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:20:42 2022 No.21017340

>>21015020
>Nobody wants Marxism-Leninism, Anarchism or any of the utopian beliefs you want. They want subsidized healthcare, housing, food and education with some labor protections.
This actually proved true about the working class. After reformist legislation was passed after the war, the workers lost interest in socialism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:24:48 2022 No.21017358 a successful communist state can never exist because communism is stateless, dummies.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:26:32 2022 No.21017368 [DELETED]

>>21017281
Ma got cracked down on because he dared to say something that made the government look bad. There was no connection to his company’s working conditions. So don’t be stupid. Unless you’re arguing government suppressing those who dare speak out against it is communist, then I agree with you.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:29:37 2022 No.21017381

>>21017340
because most people are short-sighted. what happened to all the labor protections that were secured in blood in the early 20th century? the capitalist class immediately got to undoing them by bribing politicians and other members of the government. that's always going to happen as long as the capitalist class is allowed to exist.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:35:17 2022 No.21017396

I don't understand how the worker control of production is even supposed to work in theory, you can't have the same people simultaneously working and managing the whole thing, At best you could get indirect democracy via workers voting on the CEOs, but that doesn't get rid of the employer-employee distinction.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:38:58 2022 No.21017405 >>21017396 >you can't have the same people simultaneously working and managing the whole thing why not?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:41:52 2022 No.21017409 >>21017396 The only co-op I have ever seen function was a bunch of blue collar boomers who weeded out every commie and jewish rat.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:42:32 2022 No.21017411 >>21017281 So CCP's problem was that he stopped hiding it?

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:47:57 2022 No.21017432 [DELETED]

>>21017411
No. Ma got regulated for saying something that made the government look bad, had nothing to do with Alibaba’s working conditions. The only way someone would think they’re connected is because they don’t know anything about China and they think it’s all one big worker’s co-op with no billionaires are giant corporations that treat their workers like shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:48:21 2022 No.21017433 >>21007686 Read atlas shrugged, every marxist and commiecuck seethes at it because it explains the character and behavior of all marxist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:49:31 2022 No.21017435 >>21017298 Nothing of what you answered is even barely relevant to what I copypasted Stop typing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:53:24 2022 No.21017447 >>21017435 I exposed you for the ignorant retard you are and now you’re coping. Keep seething, I want to see how much more I can make you seethe

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:54:56 2022 No.21017450 >>21017447 >I exposed you for the ignorant retard you are See ---> https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_17.htm

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:56:15 2022 No.21017453 >>21017450 See, I told you to keep seething and you obeyed just like a good little doggie. Now, keep seething, I'm not done with making you my bitch.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:57:20 2022 No.21017456 you can't argue with retards like this >>21017453

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:57:58 2022 No.21017458 >>21017456 There you go, now you have to pretend to be someone else. Keep seething my little bitch.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 14:59:22 2022 No.21017461 was this person >>21017458 always like this or did 4chan turn them into this?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 15:00:06 2022 No.21017464 >>21017461 Were you always a little bitch when you were exposed for how stupid and ignorant you are on a topic you pretend to know about or did that only happen on 4chan?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 15:07:30 2022 No.21017488 >>21017396 It's more about ownership and as you say some measures of democratic control, not so much about the roles in day-to-day operation.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 15:17:06 2022 No.21017533 Cooperatives aren't communism nor a step towards it, but they do demonstrate that there is no need for a capitalist overseeing production.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 15:17:53 2022 No.21017535 File: 59 KB, 446x688, 576855A1-794A-42C0-AEDF-500AD0A49CF5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 15:20:20 2022 No.21017541 >>21017533 Also correct, it does nothing to alter the fundamental relations of production and exchange and really just creates a business that is less flexible and resilient compared to ones owned and/or operated by individual capitalists.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 15:29:38 2022 No.21017578 File: 40 KB, 323x500, 1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21007686

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 15:42:43 2022 No.21017643

>>21017488
There is no ownership without control. If a single person is responsible for deciding what the workers should do and what the workers should be paid, it is the employer who is the owner. For worker ownership you would need the workers themselves deciding what they should be doing and what they should be paid. You could make a middle of the road compromise and have a single person controlling production but elected by the workers, but in this case the capitalists/employers remain in control of production (ie. class distinctions are not abolished).

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 15:47:56 2022 No.21017670 >>21017643 a worker being elected into a position of authority doesn't mean they're no longer part of the proletariat. hierarchy does not equal class.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 15:55:57 2022 No.21017703 >>21017670 >a worker being elected into a position of authority doesn't mean they're no longer part of the proletariat. hierarchy does not equal class. If the workers sell their labor to him (wages) that makes him a capitalist, not a proletariat.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 16:05:17 2022 No.21017755 >>21017703 but they wouldn't be selling their labor to him in this situation.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 16:10:55 2022 No.21017782 >>21017755 Who do you think is paying their wages?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 16:13:03 2022 No.21017793 >>21017782 the workers electing someone to handle a lot of the day-to-day stuff doesn't change who owns the means of operation. it shouldn't be this difficult to understand.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 16:14:04 2022 No.21017799 >>21017793 >means of operation means of production

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 16:24:38 2022 No.21017838

>>21007686
The real answer to this question is that the reason Communist countries have collapsed has been due to situations unique to each country. The Soviet Union, China, and Vietnam followed very different paths on their way to the collapses that forced them to either completely restructure their governments or just add more and more capitalist policies over time.

The best way to get an answer to
>why socialism/communism (or any variant thereof) completely and utterly failed whenever it was attempted to be put into practice?
is to read unbiased individual histories of various communist nations, and draw your own conclusions once you have a good historical base to draw from. Any single book with the theme "why commies always fail" is going to be biased no matter what, but individual histories have a much better chance of being impartial.

A lot of it is also interrelated. For instance, Vietnam likely would have had far more success as a communist country if the cold war hadn't led to the U.S. intervening in what would have been a much easier and more successful communist takeover, and the eventual communist Vietnam that did arise likely would have had more success if the Soviets had been in a position to provide more material support for efforts toward rebuilding. But the Soviet economy was collapsing and, as a result, communist Vietnam was ridden with poverty and famine and not really capable of rebuilding after decades of total war.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 17:49:51 2022 No.21018113

>>21017793
>the workers electing someone to handle a lot of the day-to-day stuff doesn't change who owns the means of operation. it shouldn't be this difficult to understand.
In the system we are discussing, the only thing that changes is that the employer is now elected by the workers. In this system then, who do you think is the owner of the worker's labour, the workers or the employer who pays them wages to work for him?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 18:13:43 2022 No.21018216 >>21017838 Good post, anything else is idealist nonsense reliant on nebulous ideas of "human nature" and "motivations".

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 18:16:00 2022 No.21018228

>>21017793
Centralized powers tend towards ever more authority. The basics of communism is to turn that back. To take away centralization as much as possible. Orderliness can still come of this with enough organization. There'd be plenty of time to flex this when a people are free.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 18:19:23 2022 No.21018244

>>21017838
>The best way to get an answer to
>>why socialism/communism (or any variant thereof) completely and utterly failed whenever it was attempted to be put into practice?
Is that it wasn't attempted. Marxians don't believe in going directly there.

>Communist nations
Dry water. Electro-accustic. The whiteness of space. All contradictions in terms

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 18:35:31 2022 No.21018328 >>21017381 >what happened to all the labor protections that were secured in blood in the early 20th century? They're still here? Child labor laws, paid time off, union rights still exist, retard.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 18:52:31 2022 No.21018394 >>21018328 go have a chat with your union rep

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 19:13:54 2022 No.21018493 >>21017125 >The CCP isn't communist lol. lmao.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 19:15:57 2022 No.21018497 Not a difficult subject. Just take a basic introductory metaphysics course.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 19:44:28 2022 No.21018601 >>21018113 but the person in charge isn't the employer, they're just an administrator. the workers are still the owners but they've delegated certain responsibilities to one person or a smaller group of people.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 19:56:26 2022 No.21018633 >>21018328 poor enforcement and they're increasingly being circumvented by classifying workers as independent contractors.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 20:57:39 2022 No.21018832 File: 152 KB, 1125x1471, media_Fc1NOylWAAUyRLe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21014620 >>21014810

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 21:53:45 2022 No.21019078

>>21018493
They’re the Communist Party. They wish to bring about communism, but are not practicing it.

>>21017125
Communism in full is the dropping of statism . There will never be a communist state, like there will never be an anarchist state. They’re countrysides, continents, islands, regions, towns, etc.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 22:03:13 2022 No.21019114 >>21019078 The communist party, in total authoritarian control, who want communism, aren't practicing communism?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 22:09:53 2022 No.21019146 >>21019114 They are man. Just walk right into Ten Cent, Alibaba, or other billion dollar corporation built on the backs of overworked employees and tell the CEO’s and other execs the workers run the means of production.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 22:25:40 2022 No.21019203

>>21019146
This is like saying that since the USA has regulation in the market, they aren't capitalist. Just because a government isn't 100% ideologically committed to the most extreme version of their ideology doesn't mean they aren't operating under the umbrella of that ideology. Would you allow that China is Neo-Communist?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 22:28:52 2022 No.21019218 >>21019203 Is workers owning the means of production an extreme ideology in communism?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 22:34:07 2022 No.21019248 >>21019218 Absolutely. No one in their right mind would let a commie own the means of production.

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 22:36:40 2022 No.21019261

>>21019218
What do you mean by "owning"? Isn't the main thrust of communism the abolishing of private property, or "ownership" as a concept? So, isn't the government appropriating profits from functional companies on behalf of the citizenry in keeping with the spirit of true communism?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 22:45:13 2022 No.21019294 >>21019261 So workers being exploited by their billionaire executives and having no say in their labor is ok in a communist country?

Anonymous Tue Sep 20 22:50:27 2022 No.21019311

>But the transformation, either into joint-stock companies, or into state ownership, does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. In the joint-stock companies this is obvious. And the modern state, again, is only the organisation that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the general external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine, the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is rather brought to a head. But, brought to a head, it topples over. State ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 20 23:25:13 2022 No.21019433 >>21019114 China is doing their capitalism, and hope to morph into the next stage, whatever they think it is. They intend to bring about communism. Yeah. You know the Democratic Party isn't really into democracy, right?

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 01:00:42 2022 No.21019786 Marx can't be debunked

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 01:03:07 2022 No.21019803 Only a Marxist analysis of the Soviet Union can show why it failed. I'll recommend it anyway but y'all won't get past my first statement, read Trotsky's The Revolution Betrayed.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 05:36:19 2022 No.21020763 >>21019803 If you want a Marxist analysis of the Soviet Union why are you recommending Trotskism? Read Andrle and Fitzpatrick.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 07:52:32 2022 No.21021086 >>21007709 Fpbp

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 14:38:39 2022 No.21022015 >>21007686 Yeah national socialism failed spectacularly

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 15:11:14 2022 No.21022151 >>21007718 This was a good book and I found a lot of other good books through its citations.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 15:14:49 2022 No.21022169 >>21019294 Read Kojeve and you will understand why statements like this are really retarded.

Anonymous Wed Sep 21 15:34:15 2022 No.21022268 [DELETED]

>>21022169
Nah, I’ll stick with Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Trotsky while still advocating for worker’s rights while milquetoast “communists” like you overlook the exploitation of workers just so you can say “look we’re successful too!” while debating capitalists online on your macbook in starbucks.

Oh, and just so you know, white liberal plastic socialists like you will be the first to hang in the revolution, right after the capitalist pigs. I hope you understand with every fiber of your being just how much real socialists hate people like you.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 17:35:38 2022 No.21022723 >>21021086 It isn’t actually. This post ends this meme here and now >>21011545

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 20:29:32 2022 No.21023420 >>21007940 Correct. Communism was the way into modernity for Russia, and then it spread from there, carrying the idea of reaching modernity through Communism to Eastern Europe, Asia, and later even Africa.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 20:39:03 2022 No.21023453 >>21007709 fpbp

Anonymous Wed Sep 21 20:47:00 2022 No.21023482
File: 702 KB, 1553x2407, hobsbawm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21007686
Most of the posts itt suck, here's some none-meme answers
Picrelated is a good one, it's an account of 20th century history that devotes a pretty significant portion of the book to the failures of the communist movement of the time. Eric Hobsbawm was a marxist historian, but he's respected quite well in academia in general and he offers a relatively objective view here. I goes without saying that it's best read after his previous three books in the series, that cover 19th century history, but can be read fine on its own.

On the other side of the spectrum you could read Main Currents of Marxism: Its Origins, Growth and Dissolution by Leszek Kołakowski. It's meant as a general overview of marxist ideology, but delves pretty extensively into the failures of the system (particularly what Kołakowski sees as its philosophical/ideological failures). It's written from an explicitly anti-marxist view, but isn't as biased as you would expect from that description. I've seen it be recommended by marxists as an overview of the ideology for what it's worth.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 20:54:27 2022 No.21023513 >>21013796 Oh, and all the workers control and receive the profit of the oil production? Fucking retard

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 21 21:53:47 2022 No.21023808 >>21023513 Bro, even fucking ALASKA gives an oil dividend to their citizens. So, uhh, YES, citizens receiving a share of the profits from oil is regarded as common sense good policy in Republican AK and progressive Scandinavia.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 22 02:57:22 2022 No.21025100 >>21007686 No, unironically.

Anonymous Thu Sep 22 03:03:51 2022 No.21025145

>>21018601
>but the person in charge isn't the employer, they're just an administrator. the workers are still the owners but they've delegated certain responsibilities to one person or a smaller group of people.
Then we are clearly talking about different systems. So I have to ask, who is paying the workers in the system *you* are describing? (If you say the administrator, you are conceding that he is also the employer)

Anonymous Thu Sep 22 05:24:14 2022 No.21025594

>>21025145
the workers pay themselves? the workplace still operates as a democracy but rather than have members vote on literally everything they elect representatives that handle the day-to-day operations. but it doesn't give them unilateral power to do whatever they want.
why are you being so combative? i'm trying to explain something to you and you're trying to turn this into a debate for some reason.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 22 12:51:21 2022 No.21026605 File: 240 KB, 316x485, gulag.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21007686 pic related is all you need.

Anonymous Thu Sep 22 14:42:49 2022 No.21026950

>>21025594
I was just trying to illustrate what I meant forcefully because we were talking past each other. I was talking about worker co-ops, but If "the workers pay themselves" you are talking about something more radical.
Now my view is that it is not possible to have the workers pay themselves without the workers also being administrators. That is because deciding how much each worker is being paid is administrative work and requires knowledge of the company's economics. And the point is that if the workers do not themselves undertake this task but it is assigned to a single person (or a small team), then this person is the one responsible for paying wages. (And if what is demanded is a system where the workers do not sell their labour but pay their own wages, they will have to do the administrative work collectively).
Everybody rise your hands if you understand what I am getting at.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 22 14:50:58 2022 No.21026974 Socialism isn't bad, Marxism and its derivatives are. Marx gave generally accurate critiques of capitalism as a system but gave extremely retarded solutions as an alternative. His contemporary followers are nothing short of religious zealots.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 22 14:55:13 2022 No.21026983 >>21007686 CIA interfered

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 22 14:55:43 2022 No.21026984 >>21017405 Because past a certain very small scale, managing becomes a job all its own and each person has limited time in their day.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 22 15:03:20 2022 No.21027002 >>21014747 Based. I was going to recommend Socialism by Mises but this one also fits the bill.

Anonymous Thu Sep 22 15:13:46 2022 No.21027033
File: 458 KB, 800x592, 1129000323_16631241936501n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21023482
I met a Croatian communist (that's rare) who grew up in Yugoslavia and served in the military there and recommended Kołakowski as the strongest critic of it. This guy I met was personally critical of Leninism and believed that if you had Yugoslavia without the authoritarian aspects of it, it'd be the best system ever, but I don't know if he was correct or naive or what. But he definitely thought there was some problems in it and preferred a democratic socialism. I don't think Kołakowski believed you could disintangle the two though.

>>21019203
One thing reading Chinese journals have told me is how serious they take Marxism, how much they're getting back into it, and how they've talked about the post-Cold War era as not the end of socialism but a "low ebb" in it but things started to shift after the global financial crisis. They're very pragmatic though, is the thing. Also frankly, even though China has mixed economy with out-of-control consumerism in all kinds of ways, if the U.S. adopted the Chinese system (not gonna happen), there would be a fucking civil war because it would involve the nationalization of huge chunks of the economy including the banking system, major industries, natural resources (oil companies) and all land in the country as TV broadcasts have PLA commissars singing about the new era in front of giant hammers and sickles in between evening news reports about expanded grain production in the countryside.

People would just freak out and be like "oh yeah, this is like a communist country" now or something. This is just what it evolved into:

https://youtu.be/6CTY9NZC_UY

It's the same regime that has been in power since 1949. It has modified and reformed itself but it has not been overthrown and the party does not intend for that to happen. Unless some are suggesting that it was overthrown from within, quietly, and without anyone noticing. But that defies logic when you look at other example of socialist governments being overthrown like what happened in the USSR. The idea that China is a socialist country is not necessarily the "outer track" message in the Western countries, but you can watch "inner track" elite conservations from think tanks where they say something very differently like Hillary Clinton here:

https://youtu.be/CHUdbhnvlR4?t=2505

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]

/lit/ - Literature