/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20984624]

Good books on lgbtq or feminism?

I’m pretty far right but I want to see if anything can convince me otherwise. What are some actually compelling books for these movements?

If there are none, which is possible. What is the shit that is celebrated by these movements?

[Anonymous No.20984670]

It's not explicitly feminist but the bell jar I found really helped me to emphasise with the particularly pre 2nd wave feminist struggle of having to at some point basically abandon your own interests and career in order to become a devoted servant to a man. Particularly if you've ever had mental health difficulties yourself it's very easy to relate to the character.

[Anonymous No.20984693]

>>20984624
good ones, none.
it's a game of moving goalposts once you victimize enough and get what you asked.
the big issue with feminism is they don't want equality, they want to take the male role.
there's equal footing with the man and woman in their correct roles, but they want the other role aswell, for some reason.

[Anonymous No.20984720]

>>20984624
Simone de Beauvoir's Second Sex lays out a theroretical framework for feminism which I don't think anyone can disagree with, and it will give you better vocabulary and structure for thinking about gender issues regardless of your ultimate stance.

[Anonymous No.20984728]

>>20984624
bear in mind that if you end up reading actual feminist theory you will realize that much of what passes for feminism today is actually just marketing and most of the people who call themselves feminists are actually just female narcissists

[Anonymous No.20984984]

>>20984624
>What is the shit that is celebrated by these movements?
This one's easy,

Feminism (they call it proto-feminism) began in late europe as an imperative for Women to be highly educated to be better stewards of the house; to manage money and fun the farm and teach the children to be intelligent, so that they didn't need to rely on servants for education. It was an upper and upper middle class drive.

This sort of worked and carried from England to the Americas, there were some very good women writers up until the early 1900's even.

But at that point feminism started to be weaponized and redefined as a trick Women into giving up their lifestyles and entering into the workplace to be factory drones and lower class jobbers, partly to put a wedge into the workers rights organizations. Still, this may have been a poverty thing in that the Women actually 'needed' jobs at that point.


I'd begin with Damaris Masham, "thoughts on the christian or virtuous life,"for the original purpose and function and case for Female Advancement. Then compare this to "later feminism" where it's just lower class yobettes swaggering around pissing in the street and claiming they're equal to men, which they are, having been lowered down to that level lol

[Anonymous No.20984995]

Male homosexuality is humanity's last hope against feminism and the female menace as a whole

[Anonymous No.20985003]

>>20984984
>Then compare this to "later feminism" where it's just lower class yobettes swaggering around pissing in the street and claiming they're equal to men, which they are, having been lowered down to that level lol
>>20984624

To be honest, I just remembere that fmous picture from 1800's london of the hag dropping her baby in the street and munching from a tinned can of slop.... modern feminism is to celebrate this, basically, as an apologism.

[Anonymous No.20985626]

>>20984624
Andrew Sullivan has some goofy opinions about politics but writes about homosexuality and the political and social issues related to that from a perspective informed by Catholic conservatism which is an interesting thing. I'm pretty far left but "Virtually Normal" had an influence on me when I was younger, written in the 90s, and it's a critique of different philosophical viewpoints and arguments from the prohibitionist right to the liberationist left. His basic argument is: don't force anybody to love gay people, just don't force gay people to live a life of imposed secrecy. I'm gay and basically agree with that. Does this work? I dunno. Is it well argued? Kinda.

A review:

>I was skeptical about Andrew Sullivan's political argument. His thoughts in the introduction were, at best, mediocre, but then Sullivan fleshed out a rich understanding of the socio-political underpinnings of the conservative/liberal divide in mid-1990s America. To be sure, his survey scratches the surface of political problems shared between homosexual communities and the heterosexual majority; nevertheless, Sullivan's work was likely very insightful for gay men and women at this time (it was published in 1995), and his insistence upon gay marriage and the repeal of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' (DADT) is foundational to the current political moment. I was particularly struck by the following passage from the epilog:

>'The sublimation of sexual longing can create a particular form of alienated person: a more ferocious perfectionist, a cranky individual, an extremely brittle emotionalist, an ideological fanatic. This may lead to some brilliant lives: witty, urbane, subtle, passionate. But it also leads to some devastating loneliness. The abandonment of intimacy and the rejection of one's emotional core are, I have come to believe, alloyed evils. All too often, they preserve the persona at the expense of the person' (p.189).

>Indeed, in a post-AIDS, post-gay marriage, post-DADT moment, the sublimation of emotion comes at the expense of normativity. But then, what is a battle if not surrounded on many sides by many (differing) issues? It's clear that Sullivan is a gay conservative (he would laugh should anyone ever call him queer). As objective as we can view his text, he makes an interesting addition to the political field of the mid-1990s: particularly at a time when much of the focus was turned to HIV/AIDS, disease technologies, and ultimately finding a cure.

[Anonymous No.20985630]

Start with the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.20986524]

>>20984624
>Good books on lgbtq
Start with the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.20986772]

>>20985630
>>20986524
How will reading the greeks help?

[Anonymous No.20986947]

>>20986524
>>20986772
>How will reading the greeks help?
It's a joke. Although it's kind of true in this one exception that 'some Greeks' were into having sex with young boys there's really very little evidence to support it that doesn't stand out as comedy were the Greeks are making fun of lecherous perverts who might do that to a kid.

[Anonymous No.20986962]

>>20986524
>Start with the Greeks.
>>20986772
ed.

actually quite ironically, start with the Romans.

The notion of the thing is dealt with in more depth there, among a few Roman writers anyway, where it's concluded that there's no shame in taking a brat and fucking 'him' as a punishment, but that the brat liking it would be shameful of the brat, and that if the brat carries on wanting to be fucked after growing up then he's one of the worst human beings around.

STILL after having read a lot into it it's difficult to say there was a great deal of difference between ours, romans and greeks understanding of the subject, where it's virtually always a comment about perverted men being filled with lust over children or wanting to be boned by their uncomfortable slaves, and using 'this' as a metaphor for general moral failures or as just as a descriptive insult, like how we use/d the word 'faggot' or 'backstabber' where the implication of a sexual act was secondary to "lying, cheating, snitch,"

Martials Epigrams is probably the best source to be going on with, for examples of that. He had a Dacian slave boy dressed in the boys dead fathers own armor who he kept around for a while.

[Anonymous No.20986963]

>>20986947
Homophobia is a low iq take
As for my book recommends, I’d start with A Vindication of the Rights of Woman by Mary Wollstonecraft (1792)

[Anonymous No.20986999]

>>20984624
the dialectic of sex
la volonté de savoir
la pensée straight

[Anonymous No.20987039]

>>20986963
>is a low iq take
ehh highly debatable. There's far more of a argument to be made that the notion of claiming the Ancient Greeks were "all gay" is a libel that became attractive or a self-justification for 'some' English people when they were raping small boys as slightly older boys in boarding schools - which is where the word faggot came from. There's actually a great deal of buried literature talking about this, from the experience of victims and witnesses from the late 1800's and early 1900's.

I always find it rather amusing how 'people' seem to think that putting your cock into a mans bottom will grant you magic powers; that "being gay" somehow grants you a functional brain. It is really weird how the hyper-feminine white person is portrayed like this, when many of them are clearly suffering from undiagnosed mania and bio-polar disorder which they believe(?) is their 'gayness'. I think in this instance you're trying to put across the idea that Spartans or Romans or Pontic civilizations were like the modern day "mincing poofters" or some modern trope.


In fact really when you get down to the recent modern and near modern examples you find the thing to be completely contrived through actual distinctions in education and class; a poorly uneducated working class person despises the educated person and tells them that they're gay, whereas the upper class or educated person tends to despise, in turn, the "stupid breeder" of the working class. it doesn't really have anything to do with a sex act, of course, but a division which was once explained by class, which still exists, and a way to rationalize it without talking about class or intelligence.

Moreover, undermining all of that, is the absurdity of a person basing their entire life on a small 5 minute sexual act. Something that probably only exists due to social repression and concealing of sexuality, making it all seem far more important and interesting than it actually is itself.

that's what I think anyway.

[Anonymous No.20987045]

>>20986963
>Wollstonecraft (1792)
also Mary Astell as well as Damaris. I forgot to say Astell yesterday, >>20984984
>Damaris Masham, "thoughts on the christian or virtuous life,"for the original purpose and function and case for Female Advancement.

[Anonymous No.20987055]

>>20986963
ed.
Also.... I wrote a little book last year with "homo phobia" as the title, exploring the actual fear of men by other men and by children and by women, as well as the concealing of male sexuality towards men - really 'this' is what the word itself describes, if anything, whichever way the prefix 'homo' is translated, 'male or same'.

Moreover, how can you bully somebody who has suffered at the hands of a homosexual bully or pederast by mocking them for 'fearing' such people? Using the word 'phobos' as a put-down or insult, I mean.

[Anonymous No.20987070]

>>20986963
>>20984624
>. It was a way to bemoan the misery of being forced to marry a stranger and deciding not to marry a stranger for as long as possible, hence an unmarried young man who could easily have married was a “Gay Bachelor;” that is: to be content without the pretence of married life and a ghastly tedious job in some oppressive branch of the civil service, that is: that not being miserable in such a way was to be gay, and this was the meaning of the word from its first use in the 14-1500’s up until the 1980’s.

[Anonymous No.20987084]

>>20984624
>or feminism?
de Beauvoir S. - The second sex (1989)
Garavaso P. (Ed.) - The Bloomsbury Companion to Analytic Feminism (2018)
Haslanger Sally - Resisting Reality. Social Construction and Social Critique (2012)
Nelson L.H. - Biology and Feminism. A Philosophical Introduction (2017)
Kaplan J. - The Genius of Women. From Overlooked to Changing the World (2020)
Waithe M.E. - A History of Women Philosophers (1987, 1989, 1991, 1994)
Thomas E. - Early Modern Women on Metaphysics (2018)
Williams J. - Women vs Feminism. Why We All Need Liberating from the Gender Wars (2017)

[Anonymous No.20987085]

[Anonymous No.20987095]

[Anonymous No.20987097]

[Anonymous No.20987098]

end paragraph.

[Anonymous No.20987128]

and this, w/re: faggot,
>The word ‘faggot’, as said, is almost ‘as’ out of place – and anyway is a misnomer – to describe male-on-male sex acts as is the word ‘gay’, but it does fit a little more by way of analogy; “to act in a dishonest, aggressive or exploitative manner against a person,” thus, is understood as metaphor or analogy for “fucking somebody in their arse,” hence ‘faggotry’ entered into English as a pejorative in what was not too great a leap away from its original meaning in the English Boarding Schools where one set of adolescents would seek to dominate over a younger set of adolescents; more often actual children, by forcing them to take part in acts of petty servitude and humiliating tasks designed to shatter their sense of self-esteem with the male-on-male sex act taking place as a punishment for the child in lieu of accompanying beatings with a stick or a whip, and so on.

>Indeed, as with the use of the word ‘gay’ meaning things entirely different only up until fifteen or so years ago the meaning of ‘faggot’ never seems to have stopped being used in ‘this’ sense as we used it when we were in school; to call-out and shame the people who acted in such ways as recognizing, albeit whilst lacking the words that would allow us to articulate the concept, that the practise of such a thing constituted, really, the only form and most pernicious form of bullying that existed – again, depending ‘entirely’ in its application upon the malleable authority figure to be used as the weapon ‘of’ the bully, as nobody else would be so stupid as to believe the claims of innocence made by the bully.

[Anonymous No.20988025]

>>20987128
it's a shame that something like this is unlikely to ever be published nowadays.

[Anonymous No.20988241]

>>20986947
>N-No! My heckin based gayreeks weren't having secks with other men! They were good Christian boys!
The Romans did it too, chuddy.

[Anonymous No.20988523]

>>20988241
er.. yeah I mentioned that in my next post, >>20986962

>gud christian boi
WHAAA

Christians have been carrying the mantle of child castration and child sex for over a thousand years. As well as being responsible for demonizing sexuality itself, turning themselves into highly repressed perverts.

[Anonymous No.20988597]

>>20984670
I haven't had "mental health difficulties" because I'm not a sad waste of energy. Females preferring being slaves to people who only want to exploit them and possibly also hate them instead of being slaves to a men who very likely love them is stupid. Which is why 2nd wave Feminism is stupid.

[Anonymous No.20988642]

>>20986963
Yeah I don't fear fags. I hate them. So I'm more of an antifag than a phobe.
As for it being low IQ
>you are dumb for not liking people who are governed by sick impulses whose only fruit is the spread of all kinds of diseases and parasites
It isn't straight couples that are infecting little children and even dogs with monkeypox. Faggotry always comes bundled with pedophilia so there's also that. You must also agree with the statement "the disliking of pedophiles is low IQ" to stay consistent. But we already know you do because all faggots are pedos.

[Anonymous No.20988852]

>>20984984
>tl;dr - anglos ruin everything

[Anonymous No.20988893]

>>20984728
Exactly
Some early feminism made sense at the time, it can still make sense if you are in Pakistan or places like that
Today in Western world, feminism is just a tool to oppress the people

[Anonymous No.20988908]

>>20984995
kys
LGBTGSAOMNX= feminism

[Anonymous No.20988925]

>>20988597
based

[Anonymous No.20988974]

>>20988597
If you had spoken to any women in real life, you would know this is not true.

[Anonymous No.20990022]

>>20988974
I spoke to a Woman one time. My Father and I had ridden across the country to the Cloisters where the Women lived. He said one of them was my Mother. He had them assembled and they took off their clothes, and I walked up and down the line of them inspecting their naked hirsute forms. At last I demanded that the Woman who had born me in her womb step forth and make herself known, and one of them did. She was unremarkable. I handed her an iron chitty for exchange for some food stuffs, a kindness on my part. I asked her name and she answered it. I told her she had a strong pair of legs and she thanked me.

I spoke to a Woman in real life. It was not anything particularly special.