/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20982329]

bible enthusiasts i dont feel so good...

[Anonymous No.20982338]

>>20982329
regardless of the content, I wish more people would have spoken their mind this clearly and without apology.

[Anonymous No.20982357]

I hope this isn't real
I'm pretty sure within the Islamic tradition it's the followers of Muhammad who write down the Quran not Muhammad himself

[Anonymous No.20982358]

>>20982338
We'd get somehwere more genuine but I don't believe we'll ever reach the "truth" about God except that the Qur'an is a shoddy fanfiction based on the creators real work. We can fucking slam Scientology and other cults (not to say the definition doesn't apply to nearly every religion ever but as a harsher word for cruder orders) Debunking Islam is a lot easier than debunking Christianity because a lot if the claims are blatantly stated as qrong directly in the Qur'an without a indirect interpretation. For one, a goat literally ate the last remaining copies of some of it. That's in the Qur'an itself. And depsite supposedly building on the events at least in the old testament, most muslims don't ever read it. You can say if some of the events and people were real but the "magic" wasn't. From what I see of Muslims I have met that weren't simply sandniggers, Islam creates good people in spite of their religion and the merit comes more to adhearing traditions and family/community over the dogma. Most people who call themselves Christian i
I don't think really are but for those who call themselves muslim that is a far more accurate description and I find that endearing.

[Anonymous No.20982362]

>>20982358
lol wut

[Anonymous No.20982379]

>>20982329
The most vocal Atheist usually are the ones with the least knowledge of history and theology

[Anonymous No.20982382]

>>20982362
Just venting about the decline in western vs more eastern cultures. Despite being truer to the faith, we have strayed further than those worshiping false idols. Islam may be incirrect but under it you still have family and stability.

[Anonymous No.20982415]

>>20982382
The West has lost its faith there are only a select group of faithful Christians left. These people generally have large families and live based on traditional values. And every day they’re expanding just because of their high birth rate compared to secularists.

[Anonymous No.20982417]

>>20982329
Muhammad stayed illiterate, Quran was learned by memory and disseminated in preaching, THEN preachers began to write it down, but it lead to different variants which led to caliph Uthman ordering every written down Quran to be delivered to the same place and compared, with definite edited edition proclaimed and copied and the other variants burned.
It takes a minute to google up and five minutes to read in the Information Age.
Disingenuous propaganda.

[Anonymous No.20982427]

>>20982357
It is
You think atheist "people" care about intellectual rigor and honesty over sensationalism?

[Anonymous No.20982435]

>>20982415
But the muslims are also growing at an even faster rate due to much younger marriages and high concentration of births. The question is can we repair the damage before enough of the foreign has leaked in.

[Anonymous No.20982440]

sam harris is correct
religion copelords btfo'd

[Anonymous No.20982444]

>>20982329
What? He’s talking about Muslims and the Quran here

[Anonymous No.20982481]

>>20982417
You missed the argument. Hitchens wasn’t saying that because Islam believes an illiterate person could write it must be false. He was rather making a fallacy of incredulity, a fallacious rhetorical trick where you state the opponent’s position in a simplified manner (usually in a funny or scoffing voice) and then declare how you find it “unbelievable”. Of course this doesn’t actually prove anything, because whether one person finds a claim unbelievable or not is not evidence for its falsity, unless it can be shown that the person is infallible in choosing his beliefs, which Hitchens clearly wasn’t.

However, you mustn’t misunderstand me. I don’t mean to say Hitchens had no argument at all. He was using the fallacy of incredulity to imply an actual argument, which can be stated as something like this:

1) Everything in normal, every day sensory experience convinces us that the world is naturalistic. We do not regularly encounter ghosts, demons, supernatural entities, angels, and so on.

2) Therefore it’s unlike that anyone claiming to have seen something supernatural is telling the truth.

3) Islam claims such things.

4) Therefore Islam is not likely to be true.

This argument seems to me to be strong, although there are some objections to it that I can think up. For one, I have never seen a battle before. Is it right for me to conclude that all reports of battles in history are therefore likely to be false, since such occurrences have not been part of my regular sensory experience? Maybe the response to this objection would be, that although I have never witnessed a battle, the type of things that make up a battle (human beings, weapons, fields, and so on) are all material in nature, and so it is not a stretch for me to believe it. I haven’t witnessed an angel before, so I should be skeptical about that.

[Anonymous No.20982521]

>>20982358
>For one, a goat literally ate the last remaining copies of some of it
>That's in the Qur'an itself
really?

[Anonymous No.20982525]

>>20982329
If you want to criticise something you must, at a bare minimum, be factually correct about your assertations.

[Anonymous No.20982528]

>>20982382
Christianity itself is an eastern religion. I don't understand how you can think it western but Islam eastern, if Palestine is western so would be Hijaz

[Anonymous No.20982531]

>>20982329
God gave Hitchens cancer for a reason

[Anonymous No.20982533]

>>20982481
>state the opponent’s position in a simplified manner
No, he does not simplify. He is actually wrong

[Anonymous No.20982536]

>>20982329
Christopher Hitchens can't accept that even "illiterate" Arabs are holier than him, a "literate", albeit completely degenerate, cynical and run down shell of a man. How has an Muslim warrior not cleaved his spinal column in twain yet?

[Anonymous No.20982539]

>>20982533
What is wrong and does it matter?

[Anonymous No.20982541]

>>20982536
Dead for a decade and you are still seething. Truly gods work

[Anonymous No.20982544]

>>20982541
In the end God did the job for us I suppose. I wasn't even aware he was dead.

[Anonymous No.20982549]

>>20982329
Did Hitchens ever read Plotinus' Enneads? Or Aristotles Metaphysics? Did he ever make the effort to try and understand a worldview other than his own pragmatic empiricist materialism? No he did not. He spoke to a mass of educated, but ignorant midwits who take their worldview for granted and are willing to poke holes in theism while deliberately blinding themselves to the flaws of their own worldview.

He was an ignoramus skilled in rhetoric.

[Anonymous No.20982550]

>>20982329
Mahomet had been wont to retire yearly, during the month Ramadhan, into solitude and silence; as indeed was the Arab custom; a praiseworthy custom, which such a man, above all, would find natural and useful. Communing with his own heart, in the silence of the mountains; himself silent; open to the "small still voices:" it was a right natural custom! Mahomet was in his fortieth year, when having withdrawn to a cavern in Mount Hara, near Mecca, during this Ramadhan, to pass the month in prayer, and meditation on those great questions, he one day told his wife Kadijah, who with his household was with him or near him this year, That by the unspeakable special favor of Heaven he had now found it all out; was in doubt and darkness no longer, but saw it all. That all these Idols and Formulas were nothing, miserable bits of wood; that there was One God in and over all; and we must leave all Idols, and look to Him. That God is great; and that there is nothing else great! He is the Reality. Wooden Idols are not real; He is real. He made us at first, sustains us yet; we and all things are but the shadow of Him; a transitory garment veiling the Eternal Splendor. "Allah akbar, God is great;"—and then also "Islam," That we must submit to God. That our whole strength lies in resigned submission to Him, whatsoever He do to us. For this world, and for the other! The thing He sends to us, were it death and worse than death, shall be good, shall be best; we resign ourselves to God.—"If this be Islam," says Goethe, "do we not all live in Islam?" Yes, all of us that have any moral life; we all live so. It has ever been held the highest wisdom for a man not merely to submit to Necessity,—Necessity will make him submit,—but to know and believe well that the stern thing which Necessity had ordered was the wisest, the best, the thing wanted there. To cease his frantic pretension of scanning this great God's-World in his small fraction of a brain; to know that it had verily, though deep beyond his soundings, a Just Law, that the soul of it was Good;—that his part in it was to conform to the Law of the Whole, and in devout silence follow that; not questioning it, obeying it as unquestionable.

[Anonymous No.20982558]

>>20982544
Its okay you don't need to lie on an anonymous typesetting forum

[Anonymous No.20982560]

>>20982539
If he has made any factual error in his criticism of course it matters because he is denouncing something which he is simultaneously misrepresenting.

The Qur'anic verses were recited to Muhammad (pbuh) by an angel.
Muhammad (pbuh) was not a warlord.
An illiterate person by definition cannot write things down.
There's no claim in Islam that the Qur'an contains all the answers, although it does give direction on how to proceed to find answers.

About the only thing Hitchens said there that's true is that Muhammad (pbuh) is illiterate, which Hitchens then abrogates.

[Anonymous No.20982566]

>>20982549
>Did Hitchens ever read Plotinus' Enneads?
Of course not. These people are essentially animals, in that sense the Jews are actually right, they're basically cattle. The only thing they will ever truly see is what they perceive with their gross sense organs, just like cattle.

[Anonymous No.20982569]

>Hitchens has been dead for years
>religitards are still seething

[Anonymous No.20982570]

>>20982329
>if I strawman the entire thing using the worst pro arguments I can dismantle it entirely
Hitchens is an idiot and always has been.

[Anonymous No.20982691]

>>20982521
Yes. Actually maybe it was a sheep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5825l8fllG4

[Anonymous No.20982696]

>>20982521
Apologies for my mistake I realise the Hadith is not the Qur'an but my point still stands as the accepted canon points out the quran is imperfect. There are other examples of missing pages becayse entire leagues if men who were islamic warriors tyat memorised those parts were sent off to die in war

[Anonymous No.20982700]

>>20982528
Christianity spread westward and is the religion if the west while Islam tended to stay on it's side of the world (yes I know it spread to places like Africa, just not as far or as numerous as christianity) it is cobsudered still a eastern religion in the common conciousness. When peolle hear Christ and Islam they see two very dufferent things.

[Anonymous No.20982730]

>>20982560
He became a warlord after he gained a following, during which time he is said to have continued to receive revelations. This part seems accurate.

[Anonymous No.20982777]

I don't know what it is about another's belief in some god that infuriates these people so. I feel like it shouldn't warrant any more than an "okay, whatever," but then you have dudes writing entire books to say what could be said in a paragraph.

[Anonymous No.20982780]

>>20982560
>Muhammad (pbuh) was not a warlord
He, by definition, was. Whether you think this is a good or bad thing, or whether he was genuinely guided by divine will or not, is up to you, but the fact that he was a lord who gained power through conquest isn't up for debate.

[Anonymous No.20982845]

>>20982549
The New Atheists were critiquing religion not just bare theism. The philosophic systems of a Plotinus or Plato are respectable, but they do not require one to believe in miracles and historical events and specific unprovable theological premises. This is the difference. Even if we grant all of the Platonic metaphysics, there is no way whatsoever to prove that Muhhamad actually spoke to Gabriel or that Jesus was actually born of a virgin. These are historical claims in books which there’s no way to verify at all. The Christians try their best to prove Jesus’ resurrection from history, but even if these arguments are granted, they still do not establish all of the further theological doctrines, such as the divinity of Christ, the fact that he died for us, that he will come again, that he set up the Catholic Church, etc.. All it would prove was that some guy came back to life after being dead, a miracle no doubt, but not enough to prove Christianity.
I’ve still yet to encounter an actual argument for any religious system. St. Thomas Aquinas only offered arguments for God and his specific metaphysical system, but no arguments for basic Christian theology. This is becasue no such argument can exist. How could anyone prove all of the basic beliefs of Christianity? It’s just a matter of faith, not reason.

[Anonymous No.20982887]

>>20982780
He wasn't a warlord either by definition or at all, and he certainly couldn't be confused with a warlord at the beginning of his message (when he was working on the caravans).
You could argue that after the migration to Medina he becomes a warlord; however, this is not an accurate or appropriate description.

[Anonymous No.20982898]

>>20982730
I would not describe his position in Medina as that of a warlord.

[Anonymous No.20982918]

>>20982700
I honestly don't care about misconceptions of the overwhelming ignorant general population, the facts are that Islam arose from Hijaz and Christianity arose from Palestine. They are both eastern faiths from the western perspective. I'm not interested in arguing back and forth about which one spread furthermost west or in greater numbers, that's irrelevant. To claim that either one of those religions is exclusively or otherwise somehow western is either ignorant or disingenuous, no other way to describe it.

Furthermore, they are the two closest religions in the world.

[Anonymous No.20982923]

>>20982696
This is an entirely different argument about whether the Qur'an is the Qur'an, see this post >>20982417

[Anonymous No.20982934]

>>20982329
lol fat nigga died who cares

[Anonymous No.20982941]

>>20982357
Well that changes everything!

[Anonymous No.20982948]

>>20982780
It's too broad of a definition that you have here. It would make any expansionist duke, king, or emperor a warlord. It would make Napoleon and Caesar a warlord.
It makes the actual term of warlord meaningless in the greater context.

[Anonymous No.20983009]

>>20982918
Nigga, you disagreed with me calling Christianity western. I explained why i called it western despite it's origins. Ironically you're the one missing the point over semantics. West is predominantly christian, east is not. Shut the fuck up.

[Anonymous No.20983021]

So the creator of all things decides to speak to man for a final, definitive time and tells his prophet:
>O Prophet! We have made lawful for you your wives to whom you have paid their ˹full˺ dowries as well as those ˹bondwomen˺ in your possession, whom Allah has granted you.And ˹you are allowed to marry˺ the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts, who have emigrated like you. Also ˹allowed for marriage is˺ a believing woman who offers herself to the Prophet ˹without dowry˺ if he is interested in marrying her—˹this is˺ exclusively for you, not for the rest of the believers.We know well what ˹rulings˺ We have ordained for the believers in relation to their wives and those ˹bondwomen˺ in their possession. As such, there would be no blame on you.
>https://quran.com/al-ahzab
Yeah seems legit.

[Anonymous No.20983040]

>>20982357
So the Quran is at least one generation removed from its original, divinely inspired source? Interesting!

[Anonymous No.20983053]

>>20983009
You are calling it western despite the fact, which you are aware of, that it is not western. Get yourself sorted out.

[Anonymous No.20983346]

>>20982887
>>20982948
Warlord is a nebulous term by its definition. It just describes a man that gains and holds power primarily through conquest. It's only narrowed in the modern sense thanks to it being ascribed exclusively to African militia chieftains and Middle Eastern despots, the latter being ironically fitting to this thread

[Anonymous No.20983509]

>>20983346
Muhammed(saas) did not come to power in Medinah by war

[Anonymous No.20983673]

>>20982918 >>20983053
>the facts are that Islam arose from Hijaz and Christianity arose from Palestine
>You are calling it western despite the fact, which you are aware of, that it is not western
>it came from X, ergo it is X
Literal "we're all africans" tier reasoning

[Anonymous No.20983697]

>>20982329
he was a jew, and not nearly as clever as he thought he was

[Anonymous No.20983707]

so this is the power of atheist intellectualism kek

[Anonymous No.20983716]

>>20982941
Yes, if it's not considered "perfect" in the sense he means it or containing all answers then it changes everything he said. There are people that identify with these religions with different beliefs than the most extreme retard versions but these great intellectuals never argue against any of that, they conflate it all with the worst. What happens if I apply the same method to "atheism"?

[Anonymous No.20983724]

>>20982329
>bible enthusiasts
He's talking about the Qur'an and Islam you illiterate fucking donkey

[Anonymous No.20984546]

>>20982845
That's actually required by Christianity itself. The act of faith is and must be free. If you could prove the Trinity, or other Christian dogmas, that freedom would disappear.
Aquinas lays this out in many places in the Summa, explaining that Christians cannot show their beliefs are true (e.g. Christ is a divine person with two natures, that God is three persons but one God, etc), only that they do not contradict each other or what we can demonstrate to be true. Similarly, arguments against Christianity cannot always be proven false, but they can always be shown to lack necessity.

tl;dr Thomas can do a pretty good job proving that God exists (De Ente et Essentia), and his rational theology is pretty impressive (Summa qq.2-26), but it nowhere comes close to proving divine revelation is true.

[Anonymous No.20984620]

>>20984546
>faith is a free choice
>also, if you don't pick it, you're get tortured forever

Nice """""free""""" choice you got there

[Anonymous No.20984636]

>>20984546
>The act of faith is and must be free
Calvin would disagree. Why "must" it be free?

[Anonymous No.20984738]

>>20984636
If man is not free, then God is the author of evil. Hardcore calvinists assert free will is a lie but try to have their cake and eat it too by saying man is still responsible for sin despite not being free. Even crazier calvinists will admit their view makes God the author of evil but somehow he's still good. I think that's nonsense.

[Anonymous No.20984749]

>>20984620
Hell is the single greatest objection to Christianity I can think of. I came up with an argument that pretty powerfully makes God wicked and cruel - therefore unworthy of worship by Christian standards - if Hell truly is eternal, as traditional Christianity usually teaches. It's rough being a Christfag sometimes.

[Anonymous No.20985184]

>>20982549
Have YOU ever read metaphysics? It's a bunch of bullshit mumbo jumbo, practically a religion in itself. Maybe you should take a long look in the mirror and think about the absolutely asinine shit that goes through your head on a daily basis. That chart is meaningless, it presupposes so much about reality itself in order to be true that it may as well be a fanfic. Try again.

[Anonymous No.20985203]

>>20984749
The biggest objection to christianity is that god is capable of deception and has used it for dubious reasons(Telling Abraham to kill his own son and then last minute sike.) If god's own book shows us he is capable of lying, we are left to wonder what else he is lying about. This alone should be enough to shake anyone's faith, not that god isn't a very powerful being, but that he isn't just a bigger fish.

[Anonymous No.20985204]

>>20982329
quit posting this retarded and ugly image

[Anonymous No.20985246]

>>20982329

Good man, died in the Truth.

[Anonymous No.20985271]

>>20982329
He died of sin and vice. So much for humanist universalism

[Anonymous No.20985274]

>>20982440
He's also a Jew who wants to control public discourse

[Anonymous No.20985313]

>>20984738
>have their cake and eat it too
We can eat all the cakes by saying man is the side of God that wants opposition. There's only one static thing but it's also a million dynamic things.

[Anonymous No.20985563]

>>20984749
>>20985203
>I am not comfortable or do not fully comprehend God and His Message, therefore he can’t possibly exist
Why do atheists always fall into this logical pitfall?

[Anonymous No.20985596]

>>20985563
Good to see ole reliable "God works in mysterious ways" cope is still getting dusted off and used now and again.

God has lied before, therefore at bare minimum you cannot trust his word to be 100% truthful. There is no way around that fact. You worship a fallible being. Keep coping.

[Anonymous No.20985604]

>>20985596
>"like it when I get the last word in. Look at my huge secular pecker cumming all over precious scriptures "

[Anonymous No.20985620]

>>20985604
Yes, that's me down to a T. You got me. Why don't you consider the above instead of trying to mock it.

[Anonymous No.20985873]

>>20985596
"God is a dick, therefore he doesn't exist" is a non sequitur.

[Anonymous No.20985908]

>>20983040
no. it was written within muhammads lifetime

[Anonymous No.20986036]

>>20985873
I'm not saying he doesn't exist, dummy. I'm saying if he does, he is likely being deceitful about the extent of his abilities and possibly many more things since he is proven to be capable of it. His credibility is proven to not be 100% meaning you inherently cannot 100% trust his word. He could very well just be a being that has great, but not infinite power but has no reason to let us know where those limits lie. A fish tank or ant farm owner would be a good analogy. This is a distinct possibility, I would almost say likely, since he is proven to be capable of deception.

[Anonymous No.20986045]

>>20983040
iirc, according to tradition, the Quran was written down as Muhammad spoke it aloud.

[Anonymous No.20986123]

>>20984749
For me, it's original sin. I don't see why the whole human race has to be cursed because of the crimes of two people. Also, the idea of salvation through Christ's crucifixion makes no sense. How can one guy dying horribly cleanse me of my sins?

[Anonymous No.20986358]

>Religion is bad.
>But we need to fight for Israel

[Anonymous No.20986363]

>>20986358
Which atheists say this? Seems pretty strange

[Anonymous No.20986370]

>>20986363
Hitchens. He was a hardcore zionist.

[Anonymous No.20986414]

>>20986370
Do you have any source on this? Also, how does this extend to all atheists?

[Anonymous No.20986423]

>>20986414
>discussing logic with a christcuck
Waste of time.

[Anonymous No.20986427]

>>20982415
It's the most retarded delusion on the entirety of 4chan that Christendom is going to inherent the West became of a handful of Mormons with a dozen kids. You faggots are desperate.

[Anonymous No.20986469]

Christianity as a whole is so unfathomably hard to believe. Why would the one true religion be less coherent then a homeless schizophrenic rambling? It would be 100x more believable if the Bible was just Christ's story and his words. None of this "trust me bro all the insane shit in the OT totally adds up" Also the cosmology and it's explanations for hard questions feel like pure cope.

[Anonymous No.20986476]

>>20982329
Chris was a shitsouled Neocon faggot.
His brother was better in every imaginable sense.

[Anonymous No.20986480]

>>20986427
No, that's just true. Those population will multiply because they are fecund, whereas the ones that prioritize murdering their own children and being homosexuals WILL die.

[Anonymous No.20986482]

>>20982329
The more learned I get the more I'm starting to dislike this idea that you need to be LEARNED and LITERATE to grasp the attention of some hypothetical deity. Whether or not you believe in a God, in every major extant religion God tends to make himself known to the common man. When God is purported to specifically speak to "the elect" or "the learned" it tends to be huckstery shit that doesn't last long.

[Anonymous No.20986505]

>>20982329

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu3nu6ue2qU

[Anonymous No.20986548]

>>20986414
Because atheism is a product of judaism. I think there must be an almost perfect correlation between proliferance of atheism and jewish influence/being untouchable. Overall, jews provide atheists, the cattle, with the pornography and gay sex that defines them.