/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20952738]

Unpopular opinion: Cleon was right

[Anonymous No.20953280]

thucydides? more like thucydiDEEZ NUTZ lmao

[Anonymous No.20953695]

I think it is pretty clear that Cleon was deliberately written by Thucydides to be the first degradation of Athens in it's downward spiral climaxing at Syracuse. While Thucydides' direct authorial commentary is rare, we can see from those figures and qualities he praises (Themistocles and Pericles) were their ability to control and direct the chaotic appetites of the Athenians for the public good. The participatory aspect of democracy created the great energy and character of the citizenry ('a whirlwind of thought and action, to whom wanting something was the same as having it'), but did not produce good decisions. Thus, insofar as he had a theory of democracy, it was at best a 'dictatorship of the first citizen' whose political and rhetorical genius allowed the polis to succeed by directing these energies (the 'political eros') to public ends, while maintaining the (formal) principle of equality among citizens. For Thucydides, the success of a democracy was mainly tied with the quality of its leadership, and the decline of Athens was just this decline in leadership.
What Cleon represents is the first wave of the post-pericles leadership, where the leading citizens started to direct the appetites of the citizens of Athens for their own private gain and ends rather than the public good. Cleon's populism demonstrated in the Mytilenean debate is meant to directly juxtapose the vision espoused in Pericles' funeral oration; he tries to suppress the spirit of public rationality to immediate emotion, and undermine the role of the first-citizen in an invocation that is clearly meant to evoke the rhetoric of previous Athenian Tyrants. Cleon's opponent, Diodotus, probably apocryphal, is clearly just Thucydides' opinions considering how closely they align with his expressed commentary. And the name literally translates to 'saviour'.
And then even further, we see Cleon's hard-line position of force and fear is paralleled by Brasdias' policy of justice and moderation in the outlying cities, the latter far more effective than the former. Then we get the final proof of the policy demonstrated at Melos, which rather than dissuade anyone from rebelling, it unites the cities of Sicily against Athens, plunging their entire strategy of divide and conquer—and consequentially the expedition, and the whole war itself—into ruin. All his successes (such as Pylos) are shown to actually be the work of someone else (Demosthenes), and we even get a comical death, stabbed by a nobody while fleeing like a coward at the Battle of Amphipolis (while Brasdias, who also died, won the day).
It is almost objectively wrong to say that Cleon was right, as he is written, dramatically, in the story of Athens, by Thucydides, to be wrong. The historical Cleon, maybe not, as it is clear the Thucydides fucking hated him and wanted to represent him as poorly as possible (chronologies align with his own ostracism occurring under the height of Cleon's demagoguery, the likely reason).

[Anonymous No.20954525]

P-Please respond.

[Anonymous No.20954573]

>>20954525
Kek
>>20953695
Yeah Thuc clearly didn't like Cleon. I didn't know about the ostracization. Thanks anon
>>20953280
Have you read the legend of Bophedes? It's an ancient Greek poem similar to the Iliad but instead of being about Troy and Achilles. It's about Bophedes. BOPHEDEEEZ NUTS! Got eiimmmm!

[Anonymous No.20954612]

>>20953695
High IQ post. I Have nothing else to add.

[Anonymous No.20954640]

>>20953695
>>20954612
Satsuki-anon always puts in effort. Whenever I see that smug bitch I know an anon's written something worth reading.

[Anonymous No.20954923]

All of Aristophanes’s plays are seething about KLEŌN. That absolute unit had every Aristo raging about his piety. Personally I had to agree with KLEŌN’s argument that that shithole island had to be genocided (they were probably roaches anyway) because his angryness was proof of his righteousness. Takes balls to make such a wackjob argument no cap but I respect it

[Anonymous No.20955947]

>>20954923
Lmao I didn't realized he shows up in other works aside from Thuc. Going to have to read.

[Anonymous No.20955959]

look at the top of his head!

[Anonymous No.20956597]

>>20952738
Alcibiades did nothing wrong

[Anonymous No.20956622]

>>20955947
from 'The Wasps':

PROCLEON: That's true, I had to send out for three only yesterday.
But when are you going to get to the point and prove that I'm a
slave? I'm getting impatient.
ANTICLEON: Well, isn't it slavery when these men — and their
stooges — all hold highly paid posts, while you sit back and croon
with delight if you're given three obols? Obols which you yourself
have toiled and rowed and battled and sieged into existence? And
you're at their beck and call entirely. What infuriates me is to see
some affected young pansy come mincing up to you, like this, and
start ordering you around. 'You're to be in court first thing to-
morrow morning. Anyone who isn't in his seat when the flag goes
up will lose his three obols.' Huh! He'll get his fee as prosecutor all
right — a whole drachma — however late he arrives. And they work
together, too, do you know that? If a defendant comes up with a
bribe, the two of them will share it, and they'll play up to each
other in good earnest, like two men with a saw — one gains a point,
the other gives way. You never spot what they're up to, you're too
busy gaping at the paymaster.
PROCLEON: No, no, it can't be true. They can't possibly do that sort
of thing to me. Now you really have shaken me, you know. I don't
know what to think.
ANTICLEON: Well now, think how rich you and everybody else
could be, if it wasn't for this gang of demagogues, keeping you tied
up just where they want you. Yes, I know you rule over scores of
cities, from the Black Sea to Sardinia: but what do you get out of it,
apart from this miserable pittance? Even that they squeeze out like
little drops of oil, just enough at a time to keep you alive. They
want you to be poor, and I'll tell you why: they're training you to
know the hand that feeds you. Then, when the time comes, they
can let you loose on some enemy or other: 'Go on! Good dog!
Bite him! That's the way!' If they really wanted to give the people
a decent standard of living, they could do it easily. At the moment
we have a thousand cities paying dues to Athens: give each of them
twenty men to feed, and you'd have twenty thousand of the
common folk feasting and banqueting on jugged hare and cream
cakes and beestings every day, with garlands on their heads, leading
a life worthy of the land they belong to, worthy of the victors of
Marathon. Instead of which you have to queue u[ for your pay
like a lot of olive-pickers.

[Anonymous No.20956966]

>>20954612
What the fuck is this?

[Anonymous No.20957403]

>>20954573
euripides?
yeah, eumenides?

[Anonymous No.20957751]

>>20956966
AI text analyser >>20947667, probably pinged high due to all the Greek names.

[Anonymous No.20958414]

>>20953695
spbp