/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20912920]

How do you escape the trap of irony?

[Anonymous No.20912925]

>>20912920
thats not a trap thats a full grown man, wtf are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.20913281]

>>20912920
DESPITE what broken people here will tell you, it's possible to just go back to being sincere. You can do it any time you like, frankly it's easier than losing weight or quitting porn.

[Anonymous No.20913312]

>>20912920
I can’t imagine how anyone thinks “irony” is still a major cultural force unless you’ve been living under a rock for the last 15 years.
There’s nothing ironic about people losing their jobs for being “racist”, or in some cases just for being white. There’s nothing ironic about kids being encouraged to inject hormones and puberty blockers. There’s nothing ironic about covid vaccine passports. Everyone on all sides of these issues is deadly serious. You want to escape from irony? Just talk to anyone about any political issue, at all.
In the 90s people had the luxury of kicking back and smoking joints and saying “but man, what if like, everything’s just relative, man? how can we be sincere, man?”. But that is clearly not the world we live in today.

[Anonymous No.20913315]

>>20913312
Meds time

[Anonymous No.20913320]

>>20913312
Irony is the thing that's preventing any action against the new zealotry. It's what prevents good people from realizing the simple truth that their enemies are evil and that violent action is the only possible solution.

[Anonymous No.20913331]

>>20912920
Silence.

[Anonymous No.20913350]

Realise it don't matter that much. and you're constructing further mental prisons for yourself.

[Anonymous No.20913414]

>>20912920
Just be genuine.

[Anonymous No.20913429]

>>20912920
Unironically stoicism

[Anonymous No.20913434]

>>>[s4s]

[Anonymous No.20913540]

>>20913315
Go into your place of work and say "white lives matter". See how "ironic" people's reactions are.

[Anonymous No.20913556]

Just be brutaly honest.
Do you think a real man hide between layers of irony ?

[Anonymous No.20913931]

>>20913312
Clicktivism isn't sincerity

[Anonymous No.20913946]

>>20913540
>>20913312
Emotionally driven politics made by hypocritical self aggrandizing morons isn't sincerity.

[Anonymous No.20913948]

>>20912920
stop reading DFW, for starters

[Anonymous No.20913963]

I can’t tell which is worse, Gen X cynicism or Millenial insincere positivity

[Anonymous No.20913965]

>>20913556
Tate is literally playing a character lol

[Anonymous No.20913985]

>>20913312
Politics nowadays are not sincere. They've become further divided, ironic and extreme than ever thanks to the culture surrounding the modern day internet. Nobody wants to hear any sides now, people now get their political and moral stances from literally memes.

[Voluntary Fool No.20914987]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91gT68xeDMM

[Anonymous No.20915014]

Irony does not and has never existed.

[Anonymous No.20915029]

>>20912920
Unironically.

[Anonymous No.20915702]

>>20912920
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GopJ1x7vK2Q

He's such a faggot.

[N E M O . !!GgBWHLRiayD No.20916168]

>>20912920


The trap lies in farce/absurdity, not in irony; irony is what this clown world deserves.

[Anonymous No.20916203]

>>20913312
you make a good point. Insincerity has passed. Fanatic assertion of utopian ideals has become the norm and it's effortlessly controlled the masses to allow the upperclass complete control of speech and the right to oppress and coerce anyone who does not support the system.

[Anonymous No.20916592]

>>20916203
That's still ironic. If you look at mass media today, irony is still very much the norm.

[Anonymous No.20916607]

>>20913312
>>20916203
Modern media consumption is designed around cynicism. The executives who greenlight these sorts of things aren't doing this because they hate their media properties. They're doing it because sincerity isn't as cost effective.

You make a shitty film/show but give it a cynical tone, and the you get to use the excuse that it being shitty is part of the tone. If it becomes a hit, you get a bunch of idiots defending it as "making a statement" and it's a flop you flip the script and say "we're sorry it was a rushed product caused by XYZ." Compare that to a sincere or earnest product, those are ride and die. The Black Cauldron and Treasure Planet are evidence of that. They were sincere products that failed (and if you look closer they failed because of executive meddling which is a look executives want even less of)

The Qwipism of the MCU was developed entirely because of this mindset. Nothing is serious. Nothing is sincere. Be cynical. Be cruel. Nothing has value. Consume product because you risk missing out if you don't. That's what these modern companies want. They want junkfood for your soul because nobody swears off a junkfood because of one bad bag of chips, but one bad lobster and suddenly people start saying they have a Shellfish allergy. They want your anger, your apathy or blind consumption. If you hate these films and what Disney's production you need to go out of your way not to consume their products and convince people to watch other stuff not because Disney is bad, but because the other stuff is better. Disney can spin you calling their products shit to bait people with FOMO, and losing one sale is a drop in the bucket if you don't go out of your to convert others.

As for social media, it's very much the same, people aren't sincere in their beliefs, they'll simply say whatever in order to get that self righteous endorphin high. You're retarded if you don't think that irony is still around. It's just taken a different form.

[Anonymous No.20916735]

>>20912920
you take the nappy (or diaper .us) from your head and stop pretending you were being ironical when you put it on.

[Anonymous No.20916744]

>>20913556
Of course not. Nobody with any real confidence needs to put on a character or depreciate themselves by lampoon.

The difference, for the speaker, is whether he or she wishes to appeal to the rabble and gain their pennies, or whether they wish to speak to the one person in the room with the station to act upon their words.

[Anonymous No.20916805]

>>20912920
You literally just do it. You can be sincere any time you like. You're just too much of a pussy to do it.

[Anonymous No.20916823]

I guess you just kill yourself or something?

[Anonymouṡ No.20916855]

>>20912920
By being sincere.

If you're so far gone you need a signpost, listen to Beethoven.

[Anonymous No.20916886]

>>20912920
You can't (well, he couldn't because he was psychotic). It was a part of his character to reject castration and regard normal endeavors with irony

[Anonymous No.20917659]

Bump

[Anonymous No.20917667]

What does he mean by "paranoia"?
I feel that this concept takes a whole different, more elaborated, concept in his novels.

[Anonymous No.20917669]

>>20912920
By reading authors with their own ideals instead of ideals for other people.

[Anonymous No.20917772]

>>20912920
Be as sincere about everything as possible and let people mock you
I HAVE THE MIND OF A TEENAGE GIRL
I LIKE SHIPPING CARTOON CHARACTERS
I HAVE HAD SEVERAL FANTASIES OF HUNTING SO WELL THAT THE GODDESS ARTEMIS GAVE ME A HANDSHAKE WHICH MADE ME BLUSH

[Anonymous No.20918241]

Bump

[Anonymous No.20918251]

>>20912920
Ironically by becoming a trap.

[Anonymous No.20918264]

>>20912920
Be sincere but don't lose your sense of irony. Poke fun of and then embrace traditional values, like in King of the Hill.

[Anonymous No.20918689]

Bump

[Anonymous No.20918709]

>>20912925
David Fosters Womanliness is trans - this is now canon. Read the footnotes.

[Anonymous No.20918711]

>>20917772
>I HAVE HAD SEVERAL FANTASIES OF HUNTING SO WELL THAT THE GODDESS ARTEMIS GAVE ME A HANDSHAKE WHICH MADE ME BLUSH
oddly based

[Anonymous No.20918762]

>>20913312

>>20916607 pretty much nailed everything I was going to say. Culturally, we are probably in the most ironic time in human history, largely due to the internet and social media. I wouldn't say you live under a rock, but your fixation on negative political events has blinded you to how irony has completely saturated our culture.

[Anonymous No.20919360]

Bump

[Anonymous No.20919380]

>>20916607
>>20918762
This sounds like a correct diagnostic but I think it relates more to nihilism than irony to me. This is exactly what Baudrillard and Deleuze tried to warn us about and we didn't listen.

[Anonymous No.20919440]

>>20918709
Go back to /pol/.

[Anonymous No.20921126]

Bump

[Anonymous No.20921147]

>>20913312
>people losing their jobs [...] just for being white
link 10 times this happened chud

[Anonymous No.20921170]

Chump

[Anonymous No.20921176]

>>20912920
Sincerity? Or by TRAPPIN'

[Anonymous No.20921188]

>>20913312
You live in a media space invested in making you, personally, feel under attack by taking incidents with very low actual incidence, amplifying them, and portraying them as an all out assault on you. They do this for clicks and other reasons. And you lap it up like a bitch in heat.

[Anonymous No.20921231]

>>20912920
It's certainly not easy. For our entire lives we've been sculpted by the culture of "just let go, just be yourself", which equates to "don't put much care into anything, enjoy the little things and avoid anything overly intense." We are living in the most saturated Epicureanism ever known to history, which unsurprisingly, in order to be ideologised and become secure in itself, becomes simultaneously the most saturated pit of irony ever known to mankind. Think of how the Roman Epicureans looked upon the first Christians, with their comparative seriousness, and multiply that by 100 times today, with the major difference that there are no truly serious Christians around who are willing to martyr themselves in the spirit of seriousness. Even the most masculine and "serious" advice you'll get today, from personal trainers and so on, pales in comparison to true seriousness and gravity. The type of gravity and respect for life and death and the transiency of our lives that you see in Hagakure.

So how do you escape it? The first step is pushing it away from you, keeping it at arm's length. Yes, this includes /lit/, this place is a pit of irony. The second step is to cultivate an aura of gravity around your personhood, face the horrors of reality on a daily basis, live every day not only as your last, but as though you are clawing your way out of quicksand. Learn never to react, learn how to always be on the offensive, to succumb to ironic interlocutors is to allow yourself to be caught on the defensive. When in doubt change the subject. Consider every possible avenue in advance in deep contemplation. Whenever you come into discussions you will be on the offensive, but without being hasty or rushed, the aura of gravity needs to be maintained, or else you will be overextending yourself. Gravity goes hand in hand with a true "reverence" for existence, it is necessary to treat every moment as a significant step in the flow of time, to be in awe of the possible outcome even of the subject of discussion. In a word, you must see everything as beneath you, yet treating the possibility of the fall as a serious matter.

[Anonymous No.20921613]

Sincerity again?

[Anonymous No.20921992]

>>20921613
Nu sincerity

[Anonymous No.20922232]

>>20913965
>running to Romania to escape sexual trafficking crimes? Yeah he’s just doing a bit bro

[Anonymous No.20922252]

>>20921992
Yu-nu sincero-disco-glitz-glam-athon!

(patent)

[Anonymous No.20922316]

>>20912920
I've written this post several times elsewhere I'll type it up again.

Irony isn't a problem in and of itself. Derision towards something is a human emotion. Removing irony is removing a whole mode of expression. Wallace was working in academia and immersed in the postwar official cultural dialectic. After the war the cultural tastemakers had to fight for their side of the coldwar, for us that means minoritarian liberalism. For the Soviets the rallying cry of the workers of the world. They needed a social scaffolding that spoke to the large and diverse audience of the third world where the geopolitical competition was taking place. The the literati type people (often of a certain specific early life history) decided that the cool attitude will be cynicism towards your own culture. Why this? It accomplished multiple things at once. For one it provokes people away from nationalistic tendencies and to play their part in the larger cold war struggle and to include as many people as possible. On the other hand it also says well maybe this isn't a utopian system but its the best one possible. These are the best values possible, the ones we have now, don't try and dream up new ones. New sincere value striving and utopianism leads to genocide and disaster of all sorts. The irony and cynicism is a capitulation to the postwar order, nothing new will be attempted. New=dangerous therefore impossible. Acceptance and cynicism=cool and trendy

This context is important because it lets you step back and think why do we need to continue this irony-sincerity dialectic at all? Why do we need to accept that nothing different is possible, or that this is the best possible situation. It's a dialectic that needs to be thrown entirely out, because its contaminated with all these assumptions.

Cont....

[Anonymous No.20922356]

>>20922316

That whole structure of cultural affect pefectly tees us up for the whole "End of history" narrative and moment.

My only hesitation with throwing it out entirely is that the link between hip edgy contrarian-ness is pretty firmly established in cool kid circles. Perhaps something like new sincerity is a happy compromise to try and shepard people towards a new attitude. It really depends heavily on the politics at play. If you had the ability to call the shots you could just as easily invert the current model and make more healthy attitudes towards ones own, the transgressive edgey overton window shifting force. Though maybe that is a bit contradictory and possibly self defeating to promote normativity as something edgy.... yet here we are.

Ultimately you probably need different things, different currents, for different types of people, different elements of society.

[Anonymous No.20922384]

>>20922316
One last important point that I forgot to include was the hypocrisy of the postmodern narrative of postwar culture. It claimed that the era inaugurated the death of metanarratives because of how they often privilege one type of identity over another, yet it brought snuck its own metanarrative in the backdoor about pluralism, equity, inclusion, etc.

It's just another reason you shouldn't take these official cultural histories at face value.

https://www.artnews.com/art-in-america/aia-reviews/think-tank-aesthetics-technocrats-imagination-1202695131/

[Anonymous No.20924150]

Bump

[Anonymous No.20924408]

>>20922232
Yeah he's a badass Sigma male. You should buy his $50 a month plan and you can be just like him. Unironically most positive role model figure online for men is a 60 year old autismo gay lifter, check out Scooby1961.

[Anonymous No.20924505]

>>20921188
Kind of like police killings of unarmed black men?

[Anonymous No.20924536]

>>20921188
I bet you have quoted the “statistic” that the Fentanyl Floyd riots were 96% nonviolent before

[Anonymous No.20924542]

>>20912920
suicide
DFW had it right all along, he was just taking his stuff to its logical conclusion

[Anonymous No.20924970]

>>20913281
Idk the "trap of irony" to me means that sincere posts are often mocked or pushed aside in favor of relatable memes/ironic jokes so most commentary on social issues are better received (and therefore better expressed) through irony.
So being sincere isn't hard (unless one is broken like you said) it's just that reconciling it with modern culture and the zeitgeist of internet culture/memes which will make you come across as a a boring, overly sentimental faggot who will probably find himself ostracized among most normie social circles. Many such cases! Sad.

I make fun of anons with overly sincere and sappy posts because I've become jaded ever since my most sincere post got me clowned by like 10 anons. One called me a faggot, the other a tranny, and one anon included a picrel of DFW roping himself

[Anonymous No.20925072]

>>20912920
You don't need to. Existential human truths leak into your work and people only have to verify it with their own experience. David Foster Wallace was profoundly depressed his whole life, made barely functional with the help of medication. His worked reeked with despair but I felt he understood things as they were pretty well. It was a little disturbing to find out he'd killed himself after I was on board the "holy shit he kind of understands human existence" train

[Anonymous No.20925678]

>>20925072
This

[Anonymous No.20926755]

Bump

[Anonymous No.20926933]

>>20921188

[Anonymous No.20928377]

>>20926933
DIALECTIC

[Anonymous No.20928496]

>>20912920
tiddies

[Anonymous No.20929445]

>>20912920
You know we were just posting him ironically right?

[Anonymous No.20929651]

>>20926755
why would you even

[Anonymous No.20929934]

>>20929445
something about his mouth makes me very angry

[Anonymous No.20929942]

Irony is fine, ironic satire ie. that fucking hack Brett Easton Ellis is what is bad. Living ironically or in spite of life's darker shadow is some of the coolest shit ever. The Taoists knew this and that remains the coolest philosophy of all time.

[Anonymous No.20929945]

>>20928377
Ass to ass dialectics.

[Anonymous No.20930004]

>>20912920
by reading Kant

[Anonymous No.20930005]

>>20913963
the latter, because Gen X is at least sincere in their cynicism

[Anonymous No.20930517]

>>20930005
Gen Xers are even more pathetic than millenials.

[Anonymous No.20930532]

>>20915029
Its obviously this. Isn't it enough?
Anytime somebody says "unironically" they are solving DFW's irony problem. Notice it.

[Anonymous No.20930564]

>>20924970
>Idk the "trap of irony" to me means that sincere posts are often mocked or pushed aside in favor of relatable

Who cares, anything can be mocked. People will find a way to laugh at 2+2=4 and then form their own cult called 2+2=5 and hang a poster of you in their guild hall calling you a clown. Your sincerity should be targeting people who have a single speck of sanity left. There are those people still around, they just aren't as loud as the retards. As long as you're speaking righteously and stay the course your arguments will eventually land on good ears.

[Anonymous No.20930574]

>>20924505
Not him but literally yes. That's exactly the kind of horseshit that gets amplified.

[Anonymouṡ No.20930931]

>>20917772
>I HAVE HAD SEVERAL FANTASIES OF HUNTING SO WELL THAT THE GODDESS ARTEMIS GAVE ME A HANDSHAKE WHICH MADE ME BLUSH

There's a thought.

Imagine (bear with me) a man had a girlfriend and he confessed to her that he had had several intense erotic dreams involving another woman.

Who? she asks.

The goddess Artemis, he says.

Would she feel worse (she can't compete with a goddess) or better (he's fixated on a non-existent woman so there's no danger he will actually be unfaithful)?

Would she simply insist he stops reading the Greeks?

Has this ever happened?

[Anonymous No.20932072]

Bump

[Anonymous No.20933635]

>>20912920
I resurrected this thread from last place.

[Anonymous No.20933749]

>>20930517
I guess. The ones I know have kids at least, but I'm on the cusp

[Anonymous No.20933766]

>>20912920
i don't think it's possible until the global financial empire falls. our cosmology has been infected with financial thinking, e.g. no idea is true or false it simply is or isn't, and is exchangeable for any other idea on the open market (there are no good or bad stocks, just ones that make the buyer a profit or lose him money). contradiction no longer exists. this is also why conspiracy theorists are thriving

[Anonymous No.20934674]

One can't escape irony. Not for long. Sometimes we get a glimpse of the real world, annd it's an ugly and scary place. It reeks of metal and death. Sometimes you can see it behind ironic smiles and fake laughs but it is there and all You can do is turn your eyes away. There is no escape from irony because irony is the only escape from the real world we have left. You may whink that You have a choice. That You can just turn away and face the darkness, but You will slip back into the comforts of irony eventually.

[Anonymous No.20935694]

>>20933766
This

[Anonymous No.20935801]

>>20912920
This is a board for the discussion of literature.

[Anonymous No.20935826]

>>20913331
based and bataille-pilled

[Anonymous No.20935838]

>>20913331
underrated

[Anonymous No.20935852]

>>20934674
Isn't it worth enduring the burden of reality for the sake of sincerity?

[Anonymous No.20935884]

>>20912920
Irony is a mask for being afraid of your own emotions. Just be honest with yourself. Stop using cope as a sedative. That’s how you escape irony.

[Anonymous No.20936371]

>>20935852
My point is you really can't. Hiding behind irony is almost like wearing clothes and being sincere is worse than running around naked. Not only will you get cold; You'll also cause people to avoid You.

[Anonymous No.20936461]

>>20913331

[Anonymous No.20936473]

>>20936371
Cover Saint in lamb's wool
We surrounded by the fuckin wolves

[Anonymous No.20936503]

>>20936473
Holy fucking shit, get over yourself. People are not evil, you are introverted, undersocialized, and just as insincere as they are

[Anonymous No.20936520]

Why is using irony sincerely impossible? Isn't making fun of your own ironic contradictions an example of sincerely understanding yourself? It seems like this is only a problem for people that can't separate words and meaning.

[Anonymous No.20936618]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB0uRt8xO2c

[Anonymous No.20936653]

>>20936618
But that's all bullshit, he's just dumb and demands everything be precisely and formally expressed despite nobody knowing anything precisely and formality often undermining sincerity.

[Anonymous No.20937911]

>>20936520
No.

[Anonymous No.20937926]

The only humor thats affable is blue humor and parody, from a strictly intuitive standpoint

[Anonymous No.20938068]

>>20937911
You're not very convincing. Are you sure the issue isn't just that you're all retards?

[Anonymous No.20938476]

>>20936520
no. irony is always self-castration. cool however can be sincere but the only way to be cool is to not care about being cool; it too is negatively defined

[Anonymous No.20938486]

>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA NOOOO I'M ENJOYING HUMOR I'M GOING INSANEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Anonymous No.20939287]

>>20938476
Because you say so, a retard incapable of understanding other people or himself or reasoning for his point.

[Anonymous No.20939819]

>>20939287
>No rebuttal

[Anonymous No.20939848]

>How do you escape the trap of irony?
Looks like he found a solution. Too bad we can't ask how it worked out

[Anonymous No.20939857]

>>20939819
I was asking for some elaboration on why you believe irony is bad. It's a tool like any other, a rhetorical or literary mechanism. The only point given is "I don't understand sometimes" or that retards will misunderstand, either way it's an appeal to retardation.

[Anonymous No.20940020]

>>20912920
be earnest?

[Anonymous No.20940934]

>>20939857
Irony is bad because its not earnest. Everything is ironic now.

[Anonymous No.20940937]

>>20940934
That is a good thing, this will keep those AIs trying to replace actual thinking people from doing the writing.

[Anonymous No.20940951]

>>20938068
>>20939857
>Hurr durr you're all retards for hating the fact that nothing can take itself seriously and hating the literary tool that makes this possible.
Eat a cock.

[Anonymous No.20941089]

>>20939857
>>20939287
>>20936520
Decent bait.
>irony
>the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
To be ironic is the opposite of sincerity. To be sincere is to mean what you say. To be ironic is to mean the opposite of what you say

[Anonymous No.20941193]

>>20941089
>the expression of one's meaning
That's sincere, however you accomplish it. Irony is one tool of many to express meaning. You can't be confused about this unless you're confused about basically everything.

[Anonymous No.20941266]

>>20941193
There's sincere and insincere ways of expressing yourself. You're now trying to equivocate sincerity with literally any sort of expression. If that's what you have to do to win this argument, you have nothing to stand on.

[Anonymous No.20941319]

>>20941193
>That's sincere
Irony is the insincere expression of meaning, retard. Don't try to compete with the wrinkly-brains my smooth-brained friend

[Anonymous No.20941337]

>>20921231
this is beautiful, thank you for sharing. you make it seem possible.

[Anonymous No.20941357]

>>20936653
I posted that comment you're replying to and I agree
iDubbz is no intellectual juggernaut that's for sure

[Anonymous No.20941889]

>>20941266
>>20941319
>You're now trying to equivocate sincerity with literally any sort of expression.
If the goal is to express meaning then the interaction is sincere. If the goal is to misdirect or hide or whatever then it's not. Irony can be used in different ways, it's a tool. You're braindead retards talking about how hammers are evil because you can't imagine any other use for them but to bash skulls.

[Anonymous No.20941974]

>>20941889
Irony is the insincere expression of meaning. There's sincere and insincere ways of expressing yourself. Irony is not sincere because of this. Do I need to explain this any clearer?

[Anonymous No.20941981]

>>20941889
>If the goal is to misdirect or hide or whatever then it's not
Which is exactly what irony is, retard. It's hiding what you really want to say..>irony
>the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.

[Anonymous No.20941993]

>>20941889
>If the goal is to misdirect or hide or whatever then it's not
Which is exactly what irony is, retard. It's hiding what you really want to say.
>irony
>the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect

[Anonymous No.20942043]

sincere doesnt mean sentimental or reverent or optimistic or attached or direct. sincere means honest. irony isnt the opposite of honesty.

>>20941993
its not irony if youre hiding what youre saying. its lying. its only irony if you know the other side is going to get what you mean despite what you mean being the opposite of what you say. this isnt hard to grasp. other anon is completely right

[Anonymous No.20942052]

>>20941889
There's sincere and insincere ways to express meaning. Irony is about method, not message. The literal definition of irony is not being sincere in your messaging. By this logic, literally any sort of expression is sincere, and I would love to hear your arguments as to why something like modern blockbusters are sincere. They're not. You're equivocating everything and playing reductio ad absurdum. Shut the fuck up.

[Anonymous No.20942070]

>>20942043
I'm going to repeat myself again.
>Irony
>the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
To be ironic is the opposite of sincerity. To be sincere is to mean what you say. To be ironic is to mean the opposite of what you say.
If you don't mean what you say, how are you being sincere, open, or honest with what you are saying?

[Anonymous No.20942122]

>>20942043
No, they're not correct.
I'm going to repeat myself again.
>Irony
>the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
To be ironic is the opposite of sincerity. To be sincere is to mean what you say. To be ironic is to mean the opposite of what you say.
If you don't mean what you say, how are you being sincere, open, or honest with what you are saying?

[Anonymous No.20942148]

>>20942070
this is genuinely autism territory here.

>irony
person says to another person "A" when they mean "not A" and they WANT THE OTHER PERSON TO GET THAT THEY MEAN "NOT A"
how can this even be bad?

>dishonesty
person says to another person "A" when the truth is "not A" and they want to decieve you into thinking that the truth is "A"

>>20942052
>modern blockbusters are sincere.
im guessing you mean dishonest again here, since what are blockusters saying when they MEAN AND WANT TO CONVEY the opposite? please read the definition you keep posting.

even then art isnt a form of representation or an ideological vessel only and both of these notions are far removed from the creative spirit

[Anonymous No.20942201]

>>20942052
>literally any sort of expression is sincere
If it's sincere retard.
>You're equivocating
No u.
Some thoughts, feelings, ideas are hard to express, tools like irony can help, tools can also be misused. That you can't see a difference between blatantly saying the opposite of what you mean and employing tools like irony you have no clue what you're even talking about. Everything you're saying is braindead on all levels, all the way down.

[Anonymous No.20942232]

>>20942201
>If it's sincere retard.
And irony isn't sincere. By definition. I dare you to try and refute that.
>Some thoughts, ideas and concepts and tools like irony can help, tools can also be misused.
Help to express them in an insincere way.
>That you can't see a difference between blatantly saying the opposite of what you mean and employing tools like irony you have no clue what you're even talking about.
This is exactly what irony is. Are you braindead? It's saying one thing when you really mean the opposite.
>Everything you're saying is braindead on all levels, all the way down.
Which is why you can't refute it.

[Anonymous No.20942245]

>>20942232
You can be ironic and true (sincere) to your ironic self and be honest and untrue to your ironic self.
Irony goes beyond situations and episodes. It's not a mania but a way of being in the world, with the world.
You don't get rid of it by being righteously honest and struggling everyday to achieve this status

[Anonymous No.20942253]

>>20912920
Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think I would be able to stand growing up around TV and nothing else. Meta language can make things insuferable very fast if it is too repetitive.

[Anonymous No.20942279]

>>20942232
>And irony isn't sincere
You're just braindead. Like I predicted in my original post people who have issues with this can't grasp any meaning, you confuse words with meaning.
The historical origins are from Socrates, it's a similar rhetorical device to asking why questions to better understand a given position. The Socratic method is a form of irony where you feign ignorance to gain a better understanding. You don't need to lie to use methods like this, everyone involved usually understands what's going on.
>It's saying one thing when you really mean the opposite.
This is braindead, you don't think, you autistically defer to dictionary definitions that you do no work to even try to understand.

[Anonymous No.20942295]

>>20942232
>This is exactly what irony is. Are you braindead? It's saying one thing when you really mean the opposite.
the other anon miswrote there but the point youre missing is this:

irony is when you say something and mean the opposite and also want the other person to know that you mean the opposite. otherwise its lying which is whats really the opposite of sincerity. no one would call it irony if you said something and meant the opposite but wanted the person to think what you said was what you meant.

[Anonymous No.20942338]

>>20942295
>irony is when you say something and mean the opposite
In the definition it's "normally signifies" the opposite but most examples of interesting irony in the real world are not that. That's not a useful thing to do, just saying exactly the opposite to what you mean.
>I looove shit
Who says things like that except sitcoms from 1998? Is the supposed insincerity of 90s sitcoms a problem in your life?

[Anonymous No.20942356]

>>20942279
>You conflate words with meaning.
You're conflating sincerity, honesty and meaning all at the same time.
I can sincerely lie to you and I can ironically tell you the truth. The act of telling a story is in itself inherently deceitful. That's what fiction is. You're claiming that I'm autistically deferring to the definition of irony when this new tangent of yours is directly ripped from the first dictionary search result. You're offering nothing new to this conversation other than adhom, deflection, conflation and smug dismissal. Irony is in itself not sincere. The act of expressing meaning is in itself not sincere especially when the meaning can be a lie. You claim I'm braindead when you can't even understand this simple concept.

[Anonymous No.20942372]

>>20942338
>interesting irony in the real world
we're arguing that those arent irony but dishonesty or something else, and that real irony is the definition you keep posting, so dont reject the definition now.
>That's not a useful thing to do, just saying exactly the opposite to what you mean.
its usually humor

[Anonymous No.20942383]

>>20912920
So you want a safe space to collect data for your deep learning thing?

[Anonymous No.20942391]

>>20942356
>I can sincerely lie
See how you conflate words with meaning? You care about the labels not what they're communicating, you're not sincere.
When you lie you're not sincerely communicating. Being insincere is about misdirecting or hiding the truth, it's a form of lying, you're not trying to let the truth come out. You can use "feigned ignorance" to serve the truth and in some case communicate more sincerely than without it.
>>20942372
>we're arguing that those arent irony
I'm not. Irony is a rhetorical device that means "feigned ignorance". Hyde isn't saying the opposite of what he means for example.
>its usually humor
That's 90s sitcom humor, nobody actually does it.

[Anonymous No.20942446]

>>20942391
>See how you conflate words with meaning? You care about the labels not what they're communicating, you're not sincere.
Notice how you didn’t actually address anything I just said? The act of expressing meaning is in itself, not sincere. You can express meaning insincere ways. Which is what irony. I care about the truth, and I care about sincerity. Which is why I’m even bothering having this retarded conversation with someone like you. You're not being sincere in your argumentation if you can't address everything and instead take one snippet out of everything else I've said.
>When you lie you're not sincerely communicating.
> Being insincere is about misdirecting or hiding the truth, it's a form of lying, you're not trying to let the truth come out.
Yes. This exactly what irony is often used for. You're afraid of telling the audience the truth. You're afraid of letting a moment breathe. You're afraid of genuine emotion. You're afraid of life.
>You can use "feigned ignorance" to serve the truth and in some cases communicate more sincerely than without it.
Feigning ignorance is an act of lying by definition. You're not being truthful with how much you know. How can you argue in good faith that feigning ignorance is sincere?

[Anonymous No.20942457]

>>20942391
>Irony is a rhetorical device that means "feigned ignorance".
hyde isnt ironic if he doesnt mean the opposite of what he means.

[Anonymous No.20942458]

>>20912920
the auspicious poo

Your scripture
Your proofs in math
Your treatises in Philosophy
All are but shitposts in residue cloaked in regal regalia

The monk is not his habit (robes)

[Anonymous No.20942466]

>>20942446
>The act of expressing meaning is in itself, not sincere
You've painted yourself in a corner where you're defending lying as a sincere act but irony isn't. Then I don't care if it's insincere anymore, this kind of "insincerity" doesn't mean anything. If being insincere helps me approach the truth and communicate better without misdirection or lies then I love being insincere.
>is often used for
Maybe but I never disputed that, a hammer can be used to bash skulls. However I do also disagree that it's "often", I think "often" you cope by pretending that's what's happening because you don't understand what's actually happening.
>Feigning ignorance is an act of lying by definition
We went over this in excruciating detail, the Socratic method is not a form of lying. It's used to reveal truth. When I ask you or myself a why question I'm asking for reason.

[Anonymous No.20942471]

>>20942458
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW0otG1buB8
Escape?
No.
I dance. I pray. I shit. I post.

[Anonymous No.20942478]

IOLO

I Only Samsara Once
O
L
O

[Anonymous No.20942483]

[Anonymous No.20942488]

[Anonymous No.20942491]

Suicide is the only action we can take which we can’t later recapitulate as meaning something else. So, suicide.

[Anonymous No.20942504]

>>20942491
kys (ironically)
die to yourself (the will to live)

[Anonymous No.20942515]

>>20942457
Hyde is prohibited to imitate and the prohibited is inconceivable to the servile stupid. Imitation is the key to believability. Hyde haters are stupid and rich and thus unfunny but funny to laugh at.

[Anonymous No.20942523]

>>20942466
>You've painted yourself in a corner where you're defending lying as a sincere act but irony isn't
>He doesn't understand metaphors
Ironic.
>Then I don't care if it's insincere anymore, this kind of "insincerity" doesn't mean anything. If being insincere helps me approach the truth and communicate better without misdirection or lies then I love being insincere.
Seethe, cope, dilate.
>However I do also disagree that it's "often", I think "often" you cope by pretending that's what's happening because you don't understand what's actually happening.
Again, more smug dismissal and condescending nonsense. Which is why I'm not dealing with this any longer.

[Anonymous No.20942527]

>>20942457
>hyde isnt ironic if he doesnt mean the opposite of what he means.
This is abandoning meaning. This is worshiping words and dictionaries and refusing to think. It's the only example of irony given in the thread, surely what he does is what we're talking about?
>>20942523
>Seethe, cope, dilate.
Do you have any goals with any of this? Are you talking about "sincerity" as if you value it for some reason? It's apparently not lying and misdirection you care about, that can be done "sincerely". So what the fuck do you want? For me to stop using rhetorical devices because you don't understand them? Even in situations where I'm addressing people that do?

[Anonymous No.20942550]

>>20942527
>This is abandoning meaning
And an example of binary thinking. There are degrees of knowledge, I can't really know anything for sure, the ignorance isn't really "feigned" just because I have some ideas that can fill in the blanks. When I say I know things that's only within a set of assumptions, saying I don't know them isn't a lie. Exploring other perspectives will always be a kind of "feigned ignorance".

[Anonymous No.20942577]

>>20942527
>and refusing to think.
ish there is no apriori definition of ironic that you can reach by pure thought. i agree that people use it to mean other things but thats exactly whats causing the confusion youre in with the other anon.

[Anonymous No.20942620]

>>20942577
>no apriori definition
Deferring to definitions like that is an example of not thinking. The language is supposed to communicate the meaning, it's not supposed to be the meaning. We have a phenomena like exemplified in Sam Hyde, he's being described as "ironic" but indeed mostly by people that can only conceive of thinking in terms of "meaning what you say" or not which is another example of abandoning thinking. As if the only things you can express are thoughts you have some sort of dogmatic absolute belief in, even as a comedian. If he's saying the opposite of what he believes he's just as incoherent as if he was expressing his sincere opinions directly. There's no mechanism that does anything in just stating the opposite of what you believe. However stating apparently dumb things (not necessarily "opposite") can trigger responses that may advance understanding, that's a real form of Socratic irony. You acted out a small piece of a play that helped the people involved approach an understanding of something, partly simply by showing what ignorance of something might look like.

[Anonymous No.20942910]

>>20942620
No, he's right. Irony and sincerity are literally opposites. You can't sincerely ironic or ironically sincere. That's now how words work.

[Anonymous No.20943008]

>>20942620
Let me guess, you think this mindset is sincere.

[Anonymous No.20943282]

>>20913331
*farts loudly*

[Anonymous No.20943363]

>>20913281
jasper?

[Anonymous No.20943380]

He was a boring intellectual who couldn't accept he was balding and killed himself, who cares? How can you preach sincerity when you can't even be sincere with your own self. Stupid faggot.

[Anonymous No.20943390]

>>20925072
What is human existance?

[Anonymous No.20943393]

>>20921231
>face the horrors of reality on a daily basis
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.20943507]

>>20912920
You don't.

[Anonymous No.20943625]

>>20943008
What's the joke here?

[Anonymous No.20943632]

>>20912920
Don't use it to hide your sincere feelings

[Anonymous No.20943639]

>>20943632
No one wants honesty in this world.

[Anonymous No.20943642]

>>20943639
It depends on what you're honest about. Not everyone will appreciate honesty, other times people are dying for sincerity

[Anonymous No.20943668]

>>20943642
But isnt sincery a different thing than honesty? I cant even imagine who would want that.

[Anonymous No.20943827]

Just stop saying, writing and doing things you don't mean.

[Anonymous No.20943831]

>>20943827
no

[Anonymous No.20943908]

>>20942910
THATS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT IM SAYING. SINCERE MEANS HONEST. YOU CAN BE IRONIC AND SAY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU MEAN WHILE STILL DOING IT WITH THE INTENTION AND EXPECTATION THAT THE OTHER PERSON IS GOING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ACTUALLY MEAN THUS NOT BEING DECEITFUL OR INSINCERE. IN FACT ITS NOT POSSILE TO SPEAK IRONICALLY AND BE INSINCERE SINCE ABSOLUTELY NO ONE WOULD SAY ITS IRONIC IF YOURE STRAIGHT UP LYING. FUCK. IRONY IS THE WORST WORD THIS FAGGOT COULD HAVE CHOSEN TO DESCRIBE THIS SOCIAL PHENOMENON OF DECEIT. AND IF ITS NOT DECEIT THEN IT ISNT BAD AT ALL

>>20943827
why? if the other person will understand what i mean and i will achieve a rhetorical effect why would i stop? what bad could come from that?

[Anonymous No.20944246]

>>20942910
>>20943008
How braindead can you retards be? If you were fiction you would be called way too unrealistic because nobody can possible be this braindead.

[Anonymous No.20944371]

>>20943908
>>20944246
So then are you conceding that there's methods of expression that are insincere? If you're saying that irony can be used wrong, then you're conceding that there's methods of expression that can be both sincere and not sincere.

[Anonymous No.20944392]

>>20944371
im not conceding anything, you might be confusing me with the other anon. lying is insincere. irony isnt lying.

[Anonymous No.20944477]

>>20944371
>You're conceding that there's methods of expression that can be both sincere and not sincere
From the start I told you that you're attacking a tool because you apparently can't imagine using it productively. Like saying you shouldn't use hammers, if you use hammers you're a murderer because hammers can be used to bash skulls.
You both undermine the productive use of tools and help the murderers/liars by muddying the problem. If you're against lying, dishonesty, misdirection, hiding deeply held beliefs behind layers of humor etc then say that, don't attack "irony", hammers or any other tools you don't understand.

[Anonymous No.20944741]

>>20921231
This could be a perfect post, if it wasnt for
>In a word, you must see everything as beneath you, yet treating the possibility of the fall as a serious matter.
You are too caught in the modern sphere of thought if you think that
Yes, the risk of falling into frivoloties is always present, and yes this is a debasement from a higher ideal, it is going beneath
But what you dont consider is that this seriousness, this gravity, if by itself, is worth nothing, is just a facade, playing a character, if its not accomoanied by respect for something worth of this gravity
As you said yourself, what is needed is reverence for existence
Reverence is a position of humility, of awe, of receptivity
Seeing everything as beneath you will only make you bitter or arrogant, which is none of those things required by reverence
You talk about being in the offensive every time. That goes against the rest of what you preach. What is needed in reverence is to be vulnerable (but not innofensive), as in, I am this, this is what I am and I can say it, I know what I am, nothing can debase me
You have to serve this process of becoming that is the universe, existence, Creation
You can still find portions of the worlds soul, portions of beauty, in big or small things. You can appreciate them, you can find them, you can look for them, you can feel grateful for experiencing them, you can express how you feel and make others feel that way too
You advise to not react but what you propose is just that, reaction. You talk about being always alert and antecipating things. That will only give you stress related health problems in the long run. What you need is to perceive what is needed, where are the main streams, the paths of least resistance, and let Gods will flow through you

[Anonymous No.20944820]

Ironic detachment is simply a defense mechanism against a culture that doesn’t value human beings.
It protects you from disappointment at things being shitty and unchanging, that’s all.

[Anonymous No.20944843]

you need something fundamental to anchor you to reality, eg a return to biological attraction