/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20903331]

Oh I get it, Moby Dick is God

[Anonymous No.20903335]

>>20903331
Nice cover, wretched post

[Anonymous No.20903336]

no he's a whale retard did you even look at the cover

[Anonymous No.20903340]

>>20903331
you got it

[Anonymous No.20903344]

>>20903336
I finished it yesterday. Ahab is man raging against God's creation hence the Job references. Moby Dick is the personification of God's creation, which crushes Man.

[Anonymous No.20903346]

https://youtu.be/8rQOJuUh7-8

[Anonymous No.20903367]

>>20903344
If you find the idea of a 19th century whaling vessel obsessively hunting down an enigmatic, ancient seabeast so inherently meaningless and boring that you feel compelled to translate it into theological terms, then why did you read Moby Dick?

[Anonymous No.20903373]

>>20903367
You haven't even read the book you sloth

[Anonymous No.20903380]

>>20903367
Because it's inherently there. Did you even read the book? There are entire chapters dedicated to the worship of whales and their body parts.

[Anonymous No.20903381]

>>20903373
I wrote a paper on it when I was at uni.

[Anonymous No.20903394]

>>20903381
Maybe you should re-examine your core thesis, uni man. Theology is openly present from the very first page. Melville dedicates the opening of the book to mystical passages from history concerning the divine nature of the whale. Sea and Land are separate to him, maintaining a distinction comparable between the physical and the metaphysical.

[Anonymous No.20903406]

>>20903381
>I wrote an essay as an undergrad bro I'm an EXPERT

[Anonymous No.20903407]

>>20903380
But what's interesting there is the fact that the seabeast is 'also' -- not 'actually' -- the subject of texts and studies and reflections, that something can be both blubber source for the lamp economy and an etched tablet of allegorical meaning. It's not a puzzle you solve in order to end up at the theological end point that transcends the density of detail and narrative.

[Anonymous No.20903415]

>>20903406
The level of ego from that is actually quite impressive. I wish I was so brazen with my knowledge.

[Anonymous No.20903418]

>>20903406
>you didn't read it
>I wrote a paper on it
>REEEEE REEEEE YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING

[Anonymous No.20903430]

>>20903418
It's your own fault for understanding "you haven't read it" literally, rather than a way of hinting that you may have read the book poorly, or maybe that you're just being obtuse and pretending like theology isn't a driving element of moby dick

[Anonymous No.20903437]

[Anonymous No.20903439]

>>20903418
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24457771

lol

[Anonymous No.20903444]

>>20903367
I haven't read the book either yet, but you clearly haven't either if this vague nonsense is the best you can come up with.

[Anonymous No.20903448]

>>20903430
>y-you just interpreted it different from m- I MEAN WRONG
binary thinker

[Anonymous No.20903460]

>>20903331
Moby-Dick might be God, Moby-Dick might be the proof that there is no God. While I enjoyed the book, I definitely don't think I fully understood it all.

[Anonymous No.20903463]

>>20903448
Your green texting is getting a little bit awful to support, regardless, how about this, mister undergrad, maybe what I'm saying is that, if you think it theology isn't an element of moby dick, than you are either retarded which I'll do you the honor of not thinking, or you're being an arrogant undergrad, who seems to think it's fun to read every novel differently than his peers. In any case you are adolescent in your mind

[Anonymous No.20903474]

No, it's a book about an obsessed schizo hunting an evil whale.

[Anonymous No.20903477]

>>20903463
keep jerking yourself off, my fellow intellectual

[Anonymous No.20904057]

Melville was indeed a gnostic. Read Melville's Quarrel with God by Lawrence Thompson

[Anonymous No.20904075]

The book is good just on the surface level but I could see some Biblical inspiration behind it with Yob and such.

[Anonymous No.20904102]

my library can't get this book for some reason. I try checking it out online and when it gets to my library, it's some moby dick analysis or some strange book that isn't the actual book.

>>20904057
if this is the case then I'm glad I never got the book. gnostics are unbearable.

[Anonymous No.20904195]

>>20904102
Teenagers on 4chan aren't the only gnostics. You'll find, if you ever care to look, that many great authors were gnostics. Many great men of all fields were/are gnostics. One doesn't talk about it because Gnosticism is all about hidden truths and keeping them hidden.

[Anonymous No.20904208]

>>20903477
Lol got him

[Anonymous No.20904212]

>>20903331
no hes the demiurge

[Anonymous No.20904223]

I thought it was well agreed upon moby dick represents white supremacy

[Anonymous No.20904228]

>>20904195
What do I read to get unironically into Gnosticism

[Anonymous No.20904236]

>>20904195
>Gnosticism is all about hidden truths and keeping them hidden.
Kinda, it's more like an ancient fanfic club that tried to mash every myth together and make a new story from it.

[Anonymous No.20904245]

>>20904057
1. thats not even what the book argues
2. in moby dick only ahab can be argued to be a gnostic, the rest of the gnostic elements are much subtler and open to interpretation

[Anonymous No.20904258]

>>20904195
>Gnosticism is all about hidden truths and keeping them hidden.
Everything wrong with this world can be summed up to this mentality.

[Anonymous No.20904266]

>>20904228
Start with the book of John. Study it carefully. Then move onto the gnostic gospels. Book of Thomas etc. It will make more sense if you start with the most 'gnostic' book in the Bible.

[Anonymous No.20904273]

>>20904266
Book of Thomas is a fabrication and a rip off of all the other canonical gospels. The thing that gnostic gospels do is steal from the canonical gospels and add in foreign beliefs to twist the teachings of Jesus into something they aren't.

[Anonymous No.20904278]

Stop reading shit like Melville. Read real authors like pic related

[Anonymous No.20904285]

>>20904236
Lol I guess so. That's pretty accurate.

>>20904258
Interesting. Would you care to elaborate? I might be inclined to agree, but I haven't thought about it much.

[Anonymous No.20904312]

>>20904273
"Steal" and "twist" arent the words I would use. The gnostics were seeking to understand and to know. Your words almost imply they had foul motives.

[Anonymous No.20904313]

>>20904278
stop posting cringe, nietzsche would like moby dick

[Anonymous No.20904361]

>>20903331
Moby dick is a metaphor for the human condition.

[Anonymous No.20904364]

>>20904312
>Your words almost imply they had foul motives.
I'm not implying it, I'm outright stating it.

>>20904285
>Interesting. Would you care to elaborate? I might be inclined to agree, but I haven't thought about it much.
Truth is meant to be shared and open. When it is hidden, it prevents people from coming to the truth, and through the ignorance of the truth; they're easily misled and deceived.

[Anonymous No.20904369]

>>20904364
>and through the ignorance of the truth
*of lacking the truth

[Anonymous No.20904398]

>>20904273
>Book of Thomas is a fabrication and a rip off of all the other canonical gospels
No more than the canonical gospels are fabrications and ripping off each other. Luke copies >75% of Mark's text verbatim but Christians don't seem to care.

[Anonymous No.20904399]

>>20904364
What were their motives, then? Money? To corrupt the youth?

>Truth is meant to be shared and open
What if there are truths that nobody would believe without prior knowledge? And if upon hearing those truths without prior knowledge ther are turned away and put off?

[Anonymous No.20904407]

>>20904399
When I say put off, I can use you as an example. You hate gnostics.

[Anonymous No.20904417]

>>20904398
They can't be fabrications, they all agree with eachother. Gnostic literature on the other hand, try to twist in foreign beliefs with the gospels, which is deceptive at its core.

>>20904399
To corrupt and mislead.

It's a long history of hiding the truth that has led the masses into the state that they're in. The world we live in is in the state it's in because of hidden information, twisting the truth, or outright telling lies to the masses, which has led us into the world we live in today.

>>20904407
I know the truth in God, which is why I can see the lies in gnosticism.

[Anonymous No.20904443]

>>20904417
So you think the Church picked out all the right books when they put the Bible together? That's a lot of faith you have in men and an institution.

[Anonymous No.20904449]

>>20903331
Moby Dick is Melville’s publisher and the journey for the whale is Melville trying to write and fill out a book

[Anonymous No.20904450]

>>20904417
>They can't be fabrications, they all agree with eachother. Gnostic literature on the other hand, try to twist in foreign beliefs with the gospels, which is deceptive at its core.
You only think they agree with each other because orthodox Christians just assume by faith they do. The canonical gospels literally edited each other's texts to change the teachings in them, it's well known. Compare the teachings on divorce in Mark and Matthew for one obvious example. So I don't see how you can criticise Gnostic texts for not agreeing exactly.

Either way the canon is post-facto and didn't exist while these texts were being written.

[Anonymous No.20904459]

>>20904443
I think God inspired them to choose the right books because ultimately the Bible is the word of God and divinely inspired by God. I know the Catholic Church is fallible, all men are. But I also know that God is capable of divinely inspiring human beings. I put my faith in the Bible not blindly, but due to Spiritual experiences that prove the contents of the Bible to be true.

>>20904450
I've read the NT more times than I can even count at this point. The teachings of divorce do not contradict eachother, they're both correct.

[Anonymous No.20904472]

>>20904459
Well, there's certainly nothing wrong with being a Christian, my friend. I wish I were one. Truly. Nice arguing with you mate,

[Anonymous No.20904476]

>>20904449
Underrated

[Anonymous No.20904477]

>>20904472
As with you, have a good day.

[Anonymous No.20904500]

>>20903331
"And perhaps after all, there is no secret. We incline to think that the Problem of the Universe is like the Freemason’s mighty secret, so terrible to all children. It turns out, at last, to consist in a triangle, a mallet, and an apron—nothing more! We incline to think that God cannot explain His own secrets, and that He would like a little more information upon certain points Himself. We mortals astonish Him as much as He us."

[Anonymous No.20904517]

>>20904500
you left out the best part:

>We incline to think that God cannot explain His own secrets, and that He would like a little information upon certain points Himself. We mortals astonish Him as much as He us. But it is this Being of the matter; there lies the knot with which we choke ourselves. As soon as you say Me, a God, a Nature, so soon you jump off from your stool and hang from the beam. Yes, that word is the hangman. Take God out of the dictionary, and you would have Him in the street.

i like to see Moby Dick as Melville's futile attempt to "take God out of the dictionary"

[Anonymous No.20904531]

>In Moby-Dick, it might be said that Melville projected one aspect of himself into his narrator Ishmael, and then projected another contrasting aspect of self into his hero, Captain Ahab. Ishmael is a self-acknowledged coward, fugitive, outcast, escapist. By contrast, Captain Ahab is a brace and heroic pursuer, outspoken in his hatreds. The foil value permits Melville to conceal from certain types of readers the fact that there is a CLOSE IDENTITY OF VIEWPOINTS BETWEEN ISHMAEL AND CAPTAIN AHAB."

From pg 151, 1966 edition. Read the fucken book.

[Anonymous No.20904532]

>>20904472
christcucked

[Anonymous No.20904566]

>>20904531

is reply to

>>>20904245

[Anonymous No.20904587]

>>20904476
The white whale is blank white paper

[Anonymous No.20904643]

>>20903331
Nah, sport. He's a symbol for lots of things, including an umbrella idea of symbolism/meaninglessness. Read the chapter on the whiteness again. Or better yet, look at the chapter on the doubloon. It's been a long time since I've read it, but I remember that chapter being a kind of synechdoche for the main themes at play, those being interpretation, desire, greed, and confusion. Mainly, I think, the idea that there's so much embedded meaning in the world that no clear answer can be taken from anything.

Typing it now, I see an irony that even my interpretation seems ill-fitted to describe the work, thus proving its message more true.

I had a professor once who contrasted the whiteness of Moby dick to the darkness often present in Hawthornes writing. Opposite ends of the spectrum, one with too much available meaning, one too little, and yet they reach the same existential dread. Now, I don't know if that necessarily holds water but it's something to chew on.

[Anonymous No.20904704]

Ahab, the biblical king of Israel, was cursed. He rejected God. He also built an ivory (white) palace. Ishmael was the fist son of Abraham, but born to slave woman. He would have a hard life, but was promised a kingdom. Another thing, he would become an expert archer. Expert archers never miss the mark. It's all there in the names.

[Anonymous No.20904730]

>>20903331
You are a Worm.
https://youtu.be/Slv5g4VveUE

[Anonymous No.20904737]

>>20903331
Art is a mirror.

[Anonymous No.20904746]

>>20903407
>He says without considering anything about Melville, the subtext of the story and the fact that Melville wrote a lot about theology
Kill yourself lmao

[Anonymous No.20904856]

>>20904746
That's no nice.

[Anonymous No.20904944]

>>20904531
oh sorry, youre right. thats just a shit take though. ishmael grows as a character over the course of moby dick, moving from weak platonism to gnosticism/nihilism to a repudiation of gnosticism/nihilism and into life affirmation, ahab is trapped by his own gnosticism and dies with it; to say that ishmael is the bad and ahab is the good is a woefully bad reading

[Anonymous No.20904996]

>>20903331
I was thinking about this the other day too. Ahab is a stand-in for modern man’s quixotic drive to conquer nature, and in having done so he has estranged himself from the ways in which God makes his presence known through Creation.

[Anonymous No.20905007]

>>20903444
oh shut up

[Anonymous No.20905037]

there is nothing theological at all about it. indeed in actuality it is rather scientific. really, the ship represents a quantum system with each crew member being mixed states. moby dick represents The Observer, and throughout the novel he is preparing for measurement while the states (crew) are constantly entering different superpositions which precisely correspond to the unfolding inter-relationships on board. the climax corresponds to the measurement occuring, and needless to say the final, irreversible state of the system has sinister implications for certain crew members

[Anonymous No.20905064]

>>20905037
cope

[Anonymous No.20905111]

>>20904361
Not just any human condition, but monomania - singular obsession that can drive a human insane and thus subject others in one's vicinity to the consequences of such obsession (usually a grissly demise).

[Anonymous No.20905171]

>>20903407
>Hark ye yet again- the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event- in the living act, the undoubted deed- there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike though the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me.

[Anonymous No.20905701]

Why did they never write a sequel to Moby Dick?

>>20903381
Post the paper.

>>20904278
I did. I agree with his critics.

[Anonymous No.20905721]

>>20905701
>Why did they never write a sequel to Moby Dick?
there are multiple on ao3

[Anonymous No.20906880]

>>20904643
I remember reading something similar about that difference between Melville and Hawthorne and their works. The author cited it as one of the reasons Moby Dick remained unpopular for so long while Hawthorne was a public darling: the latter hid the darkness and slipped it underneath and behind readers’ eyes; they could choose when to acknowledge it, if at all. Melville didn’t provide a choice and quite probably didn’t think choice was even a possibility

[Anonymous No.20907039]

>>20906880
Anymore conversation in the area will move me into guess work territory. I've read very little of both writers(scarlet letter, Benito cereno, Moby Dick, maybe a few Hawthorne short stories). That said, I have little desire to even revisit hawthorne

[Anonymous No.20907314]

>>20903331
It's literally about Melville's struggle between his religion and his homosexuality.

Ishmael represents Melville. Chaste, weak, un-actualized. He does what he is told by the church and by society at large, occasionally indulging in what he is told is sin (cuddling in bed with Queequeg "like as an old married couple") but generally being a boring nobody who is at most an accessory to the events of the story. He survives the sinking of the Pequod, but he remains nothing more than a vehicle by which the interesting story of the world is told.

Ahab represents the man Melville wishes he could be. Bold, aggressive, driven, actualized. He is unafraid to pursue the ungodly cursed desires imposed on him against his will by The Whale. He is aware that he is fated to die (an eternity in hell) at the end of his quest but he refuses to back down. He has had this quest (his gayness) forced upon him and he will act upon it, no matter the cost. He is doomed to death, but he is prouder and more free than Ishmael will ever be.

[Anonymous No.20907691]

>>20905721
any of them good?

[Anonymous No.20907801]

It's about the ship of multiculturalism trying to destroy the white patriarchy. It was written in the 50's, when the abolition debate was swinging high - just think about it.

[Anonymous No.20908076]

>>20907691
idk didn't read them because they sound boring
the one where Moby Dick rapes Ahab is pretty funny but that's not a sequel

[Anonymous No.20908262]

>>20907314
Holy cope not everything is about how many cum tissues you can put in the trash before you bite the dust.

[Anonymous No.20908491]

>>20908262
It's literally what the book is about though?

[Anonymous No.20908499]

>>20903331
This book is a perfect example of why death of the author is a good thing

[Anonymous No.20908658]

>>20903418
kek

[Anonymous No.20908783]

>>20903430
>tfw he isn’t even reading your posts
The madlad

[Anonymous No.20908817]

>>20908499
How so? I don't think any of interpretations suggested itt require you to disregard Melville and his (assumed/probable/possible) intent

[Anonymous No.20908852]

>>20908817
What was Melville’s intent? Moby Dick is a prime example of a book that took on a greater life of its own than one that Melville intended. It is so interpretative and differing in analysis that it is impossible to think Melville thought of all of them

[Anonymous No.20908863]

>>20903463
>I didnt go to college so I have the need to prove myself and others that I'm not the retarded I truly am through meaningless long sentences full of crap and knowledge learnt through an imageboard thinking it may compare to the intellectual background a college student has

[Anonymous No.20908865]

>>20903331
>Only one enemy remained. Two if you counted god

[Anonymous No.20908878]

>>20903367
>>20903380
>inherently

[Anonymous No.20908959]

>>20908852
I don't know what was Melville's intent in Moby Dick, but I also don't know what was his intent in The Confidence-Man or in Bartleby. I know that everything he wrote after Omoo is layered and not straightforward in interpretation and there is no official consensus on nearly any of his works, I know that he was very well-read and took inspiration from varied literary sources as well as his personal experiences, and that he considered Moby Dick to be his greatest work (at least at the time of writing it), and that ambiguity of interpretation itself was a theme in Moby Dick. I see no reason to kill Melville unless your interpretation pertains to some modern issue that wasn't a thing in his times.

[Anonymous No.20908977]

>>20908959
Death of the author doesn’t mean the writer deserves no credit, just that the reader plays a bigger part

[Anonymous No.20908999]

>>20903331
Moby Dick isn't God. 'God' in Moby Dick is fate. God gave Ahab many chances to listen to him and not hunt Moby Dick, yet he never listened, and where did that get him? You can't go against God. If you do you're doomed to a pathetic fate.

[Anonymous No.20909765]

I wonder sometimes if Moby Dick is just supposed to be "general" allegory, in that you can interpret it however you want.

[Anonymous No.20910108]

>>20904459
>I put my faith in the Bible not blindly, but due to Spiritual experiences that prove the contents of the Bible to be true.
Really you're the only person with the correct acceptance and interpretation of the Bible than, right? I mean, millions of Mormons feel exactly the same way. You're not a member of the LDS church are you?

Billions of muslims around the world are as confident or more confident than you are that their holy book is true and perfect. Why are they wrong? Why are you right? If you just know you're right because God told you directly or indirectly, who else on Earth is also believes correctly? You wouldn't ever know would you? Reminds me of solipsism. I really don't see how christianity should be any more serious than people who are just really big fans of any other fictional work. You really, really, really like a book, or collection of books in a series. Why should anyone take it more seriously than that?

[Anonymous No.20910112]

[Anonymous No.20910518]

>>20910108
This anon blows lmao

[Anonymous No.20910539]

[Anonymous No.20910554]

What if queequeg is god?

[Anonymous No.20910556]

>>20903381
>wrote a paper in my freshman composition 101 class where the teacher passed you as long as you could write out your shitty uninformed opinion>>20903394
at a 5th grade level

[Anonymous No.20910611]

>>20903418
>implying you need to read anything in order to write a paper about it

[Anonymous No.20910708]

>>20910539
>According to Mr. J. E. A. Smith's volume on the Berkshire Hills, these gentlemen, both reserved in nature, though near neighbours and often in the same company, were inclined to be shy of each other, partly, perhaps, through the knowledge that Melville had written a very appreciative review of 'Mosses from an Old Manse'
(you know what he wrote in that review)
>'But one day,' writes Mr. Smith, 'it chanced that when they were out on a picnic excursion, the two were compelled by a thundershower to take shelter in a narrow recess of the rocks of Monument Mountain. Two hours of this enforced intercourse settled the matter. They learned so much of each other's character,… that the most intimate friendship for the future was inevitable.'
it was autobiographical/projecting his fantasies and Queequeg is a stand-in for Hawthorne