/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20863861]

>Two of the greatest writers in history
>Both catholic

Should really tell you something

[Anonymous No.20863868]

>>20863861
I can only see a Wagner copycat on the right

[Anonymous No.20863869]

>>20863861
Based and Jesus loves you.

[Anonymous No.20863875]

I mean, are you really going to suggest that Tolkien is anywhere near the same level as Shakespeare?

[Anonymous No.20863880]

Neither one is Catholic, anyone who stayed in England after Henry-7 is doomed on account of this gorilla nigger.

[Anonymous No.20863884]

>>20863875
Definetley not. Shakespeare was more skilled in the english language.
However, both have enormous impact on western literature.

[Anonymous No.20863971]

>Russian Orthodox created the greatest writer in history.

[Anonymous No.20864048]

>>20863868
based

[Anonymous No.20864088]

>tfw /lit/ has turned religion into a /v/-tier console war topic

[Anonymous No.20864134]

>>20863861
That catholicism used to be popular in the western world?

[Anonymous No.20864149]

>>20863861
Only Catholics believe Shakespeare was Catholic. They tend to wewuz a bit like niggers really.

[Anonymous No.20864157]

>>20864149
Which should be a shame because we already have Chaucer. Who needs Lin Manuel Miranda when you have Homer?

[Anonymous No.20864173]

>>20864157
>We
Chaucer would have spat in your face you pathetic mick.

[Anonymous No.20864179]

>>20864149
He was a crypto cath. Lots of evidence for it.

[Anonymous No.20864182]

>>20864149
Shakespeare was Catholic.

[Anonymous No.20864189]

>>20864179
Mod/janny abuse. Gangstalking reported to admin.

[Anonymous No.20864204]

>>20864149
John Speed (1551 or 1552 – 28 July 1629) was an English cartographer, chronologer and historian of Cheshire origins. In around 1590 Speed was working with the Puritan scholar Hugh Broughton, and developing their work on the genealogies of Jesus Christ. In October 1610 Speed was granted a royal patent by King James to publish his genealogical work. In 1611, as The Genealogies recorded in the Sacred Scriptures according to euery family and tribe with the line of Our Sauior Jesus Christ obserued from Adam to the Blessed Virgin Mary, it was incorporated into the first edition of the King James Bible. For many years, this work (which had its own title-page) was bound into all copies of the Authorised Version, and it was reprinted for that purpose many times during the 17th century.
In 1611 the historian John Speed asserted Shakespeare's links with Catholicism, accusing him of satirising in Henry IV the Lollard (or proto-Protestant) martyr John Oldcastle (first portrayed by Shakespeare under his character's real name, then the alias John Falstaff after complaints from Oldcastle's descendants) and linking the playwright with Jesuit Robert Persons, describing them together as "the Papist and his poet".

[Anonymous No.20865260]

>>20863884
Unless you’re referring to fantasy, Tolkien’s impact on western literature is virtually non-existent.

[Anonymous No.20865269]

>>20863861
>Literally one of the greats of English literature side by side with a mediocre genre fic author

[Anonymous No.20865295]

>Tolkien is superior to Dante

[Anonymous No.20865405]

>comparing the writer of a childrens book with Shakespeare…
Lol

[Anonymous No.20865414]

>>20865405
This. Tolkien was leagues better even with a children's book.

[Anonymous No.20865420]

>>20865269
>>20865295
>>20865405
Youre acting like fools. Tolkien is one of the greatest writers of all time.

Just because hes popular and well likeddoesnt mean he's a bad author.

Id like to see you create worlds and an entire genre as expertly as he did.

[Anonymous No.20865432]

>>20863861
Look I love Tolkien as much as the next guy, but he was far from one of the greatest writers in history. Aside from the Dead Marshes and the ambush of the Easterlings, Frodo and Sam's solo journey was boring as fuck.

[Anonymous No.20865449]

>>20865414
>>20865420
I hate these fat fuck boomers coming on this site and dicksucking MUH TOLKIEN no one gives a shit about your gay elves and dwarves retarded faggot!!!!!

[Anonymous No.20865454]

>>20865420
I'll grant you that Tolkien is a good writer, not great or much less one of the greatest.

[Anonymous No.20865468]

>>20865420
>Tolkien is one of the greatest writers of all time.
-Monolingual who refuses to broaden his horizons past children and high school literature.

[Anonymous No.20865471]

>>20865468
I read Shakespeare in high school, didn't read Tolkien there.

[Anonymous No.20865483]

>>20865471
You didn't deny anything I wrote.

[Anonymous No.20865498]

>>20863861
Have you read Balzac's prologue to the Human Comedy?
That will tell you all you need to know about the differences between Catholic and Protestant writers.

[Anonymous No.20865506]

Catholic church is the most corrupt organization in all of Christendom. Quit larping that you're actually Catholic.

Catholics are idolators and hypocrites. Fuck your cult. Stop worshipping the mother Mary.

[Anonymous No.20865513]

>>20865506
I used to think that.

[Anonymous No.20865521]

>>20865506
Seethe Pr*tesant.

[Anonymous No.20865780]

>>20863861
Dude, shakespeare was CoE, the only uncorrupted and truly catholic catholic church, because it was autonomously protoprotestant.

[Anonymous No.20865789]

>>20865449
Quit being hurtful to anon for no reason.

[Anonymous No.20865793]

>>20865780
Anglicans are mentally ill.

[Anonymous No.20866642]

>>20863861
both are also whitewashed. Shakespeare plays were written by Black woman and as for "Tolkien"...

[Anonymous No.20866656]

>>20863861
Prots are soulless and I'm not even Catholic.

[Anonymous No.20866659]

walmart of christianity

[Anonymous No.20866662]

>>20863971
He was excommunicated by the Orthodox church for his books, retard. Lmao.

[Anonymous No.20866682]

>>20865420
>Id like to see you create worlds and an entire genre as expertly as he did
every YA shitter can make up imaginary worlds

[S10241875 No.20866702]

>>20863875
Of course not. Tolkien is a far greater writer than Shakespeare.

Seriously. I have read the complete works of Shakespeare. A significant part of the plays is of very mediocre quality and does not differ from the usual repertoire of that era. Sonnets seem to me just graphomania. It's just that Shakespeare is remembered for those, I don't know, five or ten of his brilliant plays. In Tolkien, I see the realization of the divine gift for creativity and I put it above all other writers of all times and peoples. Although I understand that this is very subjective.

[Anonymous No.20866708]

>>20865420
>Just because hes popular and well likeddoesnt mean he's a bad author.
No, his infantile style, failure to penetrate the human condition, and utter unreaction to modernism are the reason he's a bad author.

[Anonymous No.20866723]

>>20863861
Wrong catholicuck. It’s John Milton, not Tolkien.

[Anonymous No.20866781]

Interesting thesis but seems to lack something. Lit fag, millenia lasting Great Circlejerkers need not reply.

[Anonymous No.20866970]

>>20863868
I can only see a Wagner copycat (pbuh) on the left (retrospectively).

[Anonymous No.20866991]

>>20865506
>Catholic church is the most corrupt organization in all of Christendom.
>Catholics are idolators and hypocrites.
You're doing great sweetie

[Anonymous No.20867087]

>>20866723
>John Milton
You mean the Lucifer apologist.

[Anonymous No.20867091]

>>20866702
>Of course not. Tolkien is a far greater writer than Shakespeare.

>Seriously. I have read the complete works of Shakespeare. A significant part of the plays is of very mediocre quality and does not differ from the usual repertoire of that era. Sonnets seem to me just graphomania. It's just that Shakespeare is remembered for those, I don't know, five or ten of his brilliant plays. In Tolkien, I see the realization of the divine gift for creativity and I put it above all other writers of all times and peoples. Although I understand that this is very subjective.

[Anonymous No.20867095]

>*blocks your path*

[Anonymous No.20867098]

>>20866662
Oh nooo he was excommunicated by a heretic church oh noooo

[Anonymous No.20867101]

>>20866702
Nice bait, surely some retards will take this seriously

[Anonymous No.20867107]

>>20867095
He was a Gnostic.

[Anonymous No.20867124]

>>20864179
Imagination isn't the same as evidence.

[Anonymous No.20867142]

>>20867124
You’re right it’s not. Luckily there’s lots of evidence for Shakespeare being a crypto cath.

[Anonymous No.20867200]

>>20863861
>baptised in the Church of England
>attended the Church of England throughout his life
>buried in the Church of England
>Catholic
Ok lmao
The only evidence Shakespeare was Catholic is that he didn’t like Puritans (why would he? they constantly attacked the play houses) and possibly knew some Catholic relatives - the same as half of England at the time.
Find a single expression, even coded, of Catholic faith in his plays.

[Anonymous No.20867221]

>>20864204
more like John Sneed lol

[Anonymous No.20867818]

>>20867200
>>baptised in the Church of England

>A government that literally opresses catholics
>Forced to adhere to their rules
>Ah, he must be a COE then because he was forced!

Most scholars agree that shakespeare has major catholic sympathies, and that he was a crypto cath. His entire family was catholic. He only pretended to be Coe so he wouldnt be executed.

[Anonymous No.20867822]

>>20863868
>I can only see a Wagner copycat on the right
What a horrible take.

[Anonymous No.20868095]

>>20867200
Church of England is crypto-Catholicism anyways, the Puritans were right.

[Anonymous No.20868361]

>>20867221
based and sneedpilled

[Anonymous No.20868374]

>>20867200
>>20864204

[Anonymous No.20868377]

>>20866723
>John Milton
Not Catholic, although from a Catholic family.

[Anonymous No.20868800]

>>20863861
>genre fiction writer
>greatest

[Anonymous No.20868824]

>>20865506
>Catholics are idolators and hypocrites

this is true, there´s a schoestantt statue near where i live, and looks like some pagan occultist shit, and these people go up there to pray to this "virgin"

t. atheist

[Anonymous No.20869018]

>>20863861
Dante would be a better argument than Tolkien. Anyway, no one knows what Shakespeare really believed.

[Anonymous No.20869037]

>>20863861
Tolkien was a dogshit writer. What the fuck are you talking about retard.

[Anonymous No.20869306]

>>20867818
>What is "High Church"?

CoE IS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE ONLY ONE TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[Anonymous No.20870183]

>>20863875
you can't compare their writing. Shakespeare is all about prose and Tolkien is all about world building, the only thing they have in common is they wrote words on pieces of paper.

[Anonymous No.20870239]

>>20870183
>you can't compare their writing.
One of them is good and the other one is Tolkien.

ALSO YOU CAN COMPARE ANYTHINGS.

[Anonymous No.20870276]

>>20869018
Tolkien is better than Dante.

[Anonymous No.20870337]

>>20870276
Dante only invented Catholicism and Italian.
Tolkien invented fandom.

[Anonymous No.20870408]

>>20863861
Except Francis Bacon wrote Shakespeare's plays and Tolkien is not even in the top 1000 writers

[Anonymous No.20870418]

>>20870183
>Shakespeare is all about prose

[Anonymous No.20871389]

>>20870408
Name 999 better

[Anonymous No.20873182]

>>20867200
Old Hamlet’s purgatory?
This being said, it’s also super interesting how Hamlet is Danish (Protestant) and goes to university in Wittenberg. There is definitely Reformation politics going on in Hamlet that aren’t easily dismissible

[Anonymous No.20873258]

>>20866702
>A significant part of the plays is of very mediocre quality
This is true. Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet, and Lear are his only "great" plays. The rest range from good to shit. I'd love to listen to academics try and defend Troilus and Cressida because they deify Shakespeare and need him to be an infallible genius.

[Anonymous No.20874179]

>>20863861
If you think Shakespeare is Catholic then you clearly can't read. Bloom, Shakespeares' biggest cuck, desperately looked for any religious inclinations in his plays, either Catholic, mystic or gnostic, and he found none. He admits to wanting it not to be the case, in the invention of the human, but was at least an honest enough scholar to state that the mans works seem to stem from complete nihilism. How the fuck is king lear catholic. Have you read the sonnets?

[S10241875 No.20874256]

>>20867091
itsliterallyme
>>20867101
I'm not trolling, I wrote quite seriously.
>>20873258
Thank you for your support. Perhaps you have taken the trouble, like me, to read the whole of Shakespeare.
I didn’t know that Tolkien was a genius (a bad word, but I can’t remember a better one, English is not my native language), I just started reading The Hobbit as a child (I was 4-5-6 years old), then Lord of the Rings as a teenager, then in the adult Silmarillion, now I continue to publish the Complete History of Middle-earth, Unfinished Tales, Hurin, etc. I consider Tolkien the greatest writer (although not in a professional sense), poet (yes, I love his poetry) and philosopher-theologian (although my positions are very different and I am far from Catholicism).
About Shakespeare, the public opinion is that he is a genius. I like to check it out and downloaded the Complete Works when I was at University, intending to read everything he wrote. To be honest, a lot of it was crap. But in a sense, if we did not know who the author of "The Two Noble Kinsmen" or "Measure for Measure" was, then we would have decided that this is a completely ordinary theatrical product of the 15-17th century, quite suitable for court performances, looked and forgot. But you have to understand that Shakespeare was a commercial author and he just had to pay his bills. Moreover, his all-European fame, as far as I remember, was launched by Goethe and then coincided with the political dominance of Britain in the 19th century, which forged a myth (this does not mean that I somehow belittle English culture, I love it very much) about their own cultural greatness and in the past too.
>This is true. Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet, and Lear are his only "great" plays.
I also like his Chronicles (not all), Henry IV, excellent.

[Anonymous No.20874284]

>>20874256
>I consider Tolkien the greatest writer (although not in a professional sense), poet (yes, I love his poetry)
>poet
I love Tolkien for a variety of reasons, but I think his poetry stinks, at least the poetry found in his Middle Earth stories.

[Anonymous No.20874495]

>>20874256
>Measure for Measure, ordinary
Keep to your native language.

[Anonymous No.20874519]

I struggle to imagine the repulsive, fart-sniffing pseudointellectual troglodyte who tries to denigrate Tolkien and paint him as just a "YA" author or to deny his greatness. This is the absolute height of contrarianism. I bet all of you take your cues from the retarded hivemind list of approved /lit/authors like DFW or Pynchon. I fucking hate all of you, I really do

[Anonymous No.20874539]

>>20873258
Troilus and Cressida is a fucking masterpiece.

>This is the monstruosity in love, lady, that the will is infinite and the execution confined; that the desire is boundless and the act a slave to limit.

You're pathetic.

[S10241875 No.20874613]

>>20874284
I repeat, I am not an Englishman (Anglophone) and I look at it with my Slavic eyes (ears?), and I began to understand English at a very mature age.
What is considered poetry in the English language in the 20th century and most likely the second half of the 19th century does not seem to me poetry at all. I do not catch rhymes and meters. Our poetry is still Accentual-syllabic and everything else is more like some kind of prose. That is, English poetry seems to me to a large extent to be prose written in a column, like Chinese and Japanese "poetry" (I understand Chinese a little, but how their poetry differs from prose is beyond my understanding).
Tolkien's poetic anti-modernism (as far as I understand for him everything that happened after 1500 was already a degradation of the language) I really like it. I have songs from The Tolkien Ensemble on my phone: "There is an inn, a merry old inn beneath an old gray hill" (I rejoice), Song of Beren and Luthien (I cry), Tom Bombadil's Songs - and I really don't I understand when this song is mocked, in my opinion this is a great game with sounds, pure enjoyment of the voice.
I read The Songs of Beleriand this year, just fell in love with The Lay of Leithian

>Then Beren laughed more loud than they
in bitterness, and thus did say:
'For little price do elven-kings
their daughters sell - for gems and rings
and things of gold! If such thy will,
thy bidding I will now fulfill.
On Beren son of Barahir
thou hast not looked the last, I fear.
Farewell, Tinúviel, starlit maiden.
Ere the pale winter pass snowladen,
I will return, not thee to buy
with any jewel in Elvenesse,
but to find my love in loveliness,
a flower that grows beneath the sky.'

Now that's what I call Poetry! I stop myself from quoting longer passages. I even began to understand alliterative poetry, although it does not seem to be inherent in our Slavic languages, it is necessary to choose the right melodious rhythm when reading, something reminiscent of a "byllinny skaz".
What do you dislike about Tolkien's poetry? Maybe I don't see something.

[Anonymous No.20874622]

>>20874539
That very neatly expresses what I was trying to explain to my gf earlier about how I want to eat her ass so bad I can never eat enough

[Anonymous No.20874626]

that Catholicism is one of the most popular religions of all time?

[Anonymous No.20874693]

>>20874622
Shakespeare took the subject of love, not just the desire but the implementation, seriously; incels who have never been in a romantic relationship can't grasp its disappointment. They just listen to shit pop songs all day and imagine that kissing is anything but awkward.

Shakespeare, Pessoa, Proust. After reading them you should have come to understand its limitation.

[Anonymous No.20875072]

1

[Anonymous No.20875160]

>>20874613
Maybe it's that Tolkien's poetry demands to be sung to not sound really wonky and weird, and I don't sing poetry I read. (Not even in my head.)

[S10241875 No.20875439]

>>20875160
Perhaps. I just love how it sounds: "For little price do elven-kings their daughters sell - for gems and rings and things of gold!" It somehow returns to pure traditional poetry.
It reminded me of a story
We have after the revolution of 1917. for about 10-15 years in art, if not ruled, but led by avant-garde artists. It seemed that after the Revolution, the liberated masses should also discard the old bourgeois-aristocratic art and a new socialist avant-garde art would be born, where there would be poetry and some kind of "labor cries" and music from the noise of cars and locomotive whistles, etc. (in "Natasha's Dance: A Cultural History of Russia" has a bit about it). So it turned out that the former peasants and new proletarians are disgusted by this and prefer more traditional forms, that is, they quickly turn into a petty bourgeoisie. This was a great disappointment for many artists of the Revolution, and Stalin, a conservative in many respects, quickly realized and organized a mass celebration of the 100th anniversary of Pushkin's death, which was a signal for the rehabilitation of the old culture.