Why Did Lucifer Even Bother Rebelling?

[Anonymous No.20863141]

What is the point of rebelling against a perfect and omnipotent being? Satan knows the ultimate outcome.

[Anonymous No.20863151]

he's actually the good guy
he's Prometheus in fact

[Anonymous No.20863158]

>>20863141
>What is the point of rebelling against a perfect and omnipotent being
The inability to accept this fact.

[Anonymous No.20863161]

>>20863141
He's dumb and arrogant. No wonder incels can relate

[Anonymous No.20863166]

>>20863141
My nigga I'll be one hundy with you. It's just a made up story. Okay? It never happened. Good night.

[Anonymous No.20863175]

>>20863141
This article explains it well. Also I'm unsure if anything can fully comprehend God, not even angels, except himself since he's infinite.
https://taylormarshall.com/2013/11/how-did-lucifer-become-satan-thomas-aquinas-answers.html

[Anonymous No.20863180]

God wanted Lucifer to rebel, same with Judas, but Judas repented. Lucifer will repent when this world ends.

[Anonymous No.20863182]

>>20863141
Lucifer is fanfiction.

[Anonymous No.20863186]

>>20863141
He knew he had to make the ultimate sacrifice and be hated for all eternity in order to give Adam and Eve (and therefore mankind) free will.

[Anonymous No.20863192]

>>20863141
Lucifer is being puppeted around just like the rest of us, what do you think God being omnipotent really means? Ironically, this is one of the few areas where Islam makes more sense than Christianity.

[Anonymous No.20863199]

The Bible is a bad Zarathustrian fanfic, of course it makes no sense

[Anonymous No.20863205]

>>20863199
You didn't read the bible tho.

[Anonymous No.20863248]

>>20863175
>Maria de Agreda relates that when Lucifer learned that the Logos would become man through a human mother; Lucifer, the highest of all creatures, demanded the honor of becoming the Theotokos. He wanted the hypostatic union to occur through him. This is another reason why there is perfect enmity between Satan and Mary (see Gen 3:15).

Wait a minute... Satan's big problem all along was that he was a tranny and that God told him HWNBAW?

It finally makes sense...

[Anonymous No.20863356]

>>20863248
Lucifer is neither male nor female. None of the angels have a sex or natural body; however, they can assume a body to appear to humans.

[Anonymous No.20863578]

>>20863151
Fuck off Protestant.

[Anonymous No.20863601]

>>20863141
He dumb lol

[Anonymous No.20863651]

Can anyone really claim never to have done something you knew you'd regret? Lashing out at someone who loves you because your pride is hurt, for example

[Anonymous No.20863661]

>>20863180
>Judas repented.
Judas killed himself

[Anonymous No.20863664]

>>20863248
Are you sure about that?
From what I've got , Lu wanted to be the father.

[Anonymous No.20863683]

>>20863661
FYI you can still repent in hill. The majority of people in hill are repenting in purgatory.

[Anonymous No.20863690]

>>20863683
hell*

[Anonymous No.20863698]

>>20863158
Not really about books, but I’ve always wondered this...
How can there be rebellion or imperfection in the face of such a pervasive, perfect being? I’m willing to accept evil on earth, but how do you reconcile someone who literally lives with God in heaven wanting to rebel against him?

[Anonymous No.20863699]

>>20863683
>purgatory
Not even catholics believe in this anymore

[Anonymous No.20863707]

>>20863698
Free will

[Anonymous No.20863717]

>>20863141
The Jewish God (the devil) made him, just like he did to Adam and Eve.

[Anonymous No.20863742]

>>20863707
But free will shouldn’t have anything to do with it. Moses had free will yet was blinded by the majesty of God’s backside - he was greatly impacted by a single sight of Him walking away, so what does that say about angels who have spent eons with Him being able to rebel?

And besides, do angels have free will? I thought that apart from God that was an exclusively human trait.

[Anonymous No.20863745]

>>20863141
there is no point.
he did it out of arrogance and pride.

that not being enough, he wants to pull other people down aswell. and sadly, a lot get enticed by the lies and temptations, or for being encouraged in their own selfishness and pride.

[Anonymous No.20863751]

>>20863699
Judgement Day is a concept in Catholicism, and before that all humans have the chance to repent, living or dead

God understand that one human life is not enough if you got dealt a bad hand so you are given continued chances to repent afterward.

[Anonymous No.20863766]

>>20863751
This is cope. If you want to be saved, you should start repenting today.

[Anonymous No.20863767]

>>20863742
Not him but God gave the angels free will before they knew of his godly beauty or w/e the concept it, he expressly crafted it in such a way that only the angels who said yes before comprehending the grace of God fully would actually be allowed to see his divinity/beauty.

It's not like God showed them himself and then gave them free will, they originally did not know of him much.

[Anonymous No.20863768]

>>20863742
>so what does that say about angels who have spent eons with Him being able to rebel?
shows the extent of their pride and arrogance.
angels are rational creatures like us, and they do have free will.

[Anonymous No.20863774]

>>20863742
Nobody has free will idiot. Read the Bible.

[Anonymous No.20863786]

>>20863774
you're conflating free will with omnipotence

you have the choice to make what decision you want, just because you can't will whatever outcome you want doesn't mean you lack free will lmao

[Anonymous No.20863792]

>>20863786
He's a heretic.

[Anonymous No.20863793]

>>20863767
>>20863768
Interesting, thanks anons.

>>20863774
I have, that’s how I know that you have free will to be an ignorant retard and you’re fully embracing that God-given life branch.

[Anonymous No.20863796]

>>20863199
Satan's rebellion isn't in the bible. It's from Paradise Lost. So in a way you're right ... fan fiction.

[Anonymous No.20863801]

>>20863683
No, you can't. Begone, heretic.

[Anonymous No.20863813]

>>20863793
>you have free will
Oh really? So I can just go on living forever if I want to then? You know, be immortal through sheer willpower?

[Anonymous No.20863821]

>>20863699
>>purgatory
>Not even catholics believe in this anymore

Yeah, we do.

[Anonymous No.20863826]

>>20863141
Raging against the infallible is better than submitting to the inevitable.

[Anonymous No.20863836]

>>20863141
Satan knows Yhwh isn’t perfect. So would any humans who puts their minds to it. Only the feeble minded worship this fraud

[Anonymous No.20863841]

>>20863813
again conflating free will with omnipotence

trolling or just stupid?

[Anonymous No.20863887]

>>20863356
So theoretically, Lucifer could appear to me as a red headed slut with big tits and bedroom eyes? You know, as a purely theological exercise?

[Anonymous No.20863903]

>>20863887
Reddit

[Anonymous No.20863904]

>>20863141
>What is the point of rebelling against a perfect and omnipotent being?
https://highexistence.com/the-last-answer-short-story/

[Anonymous No.20863925]

>>20863903
Im just askin, I won’t need to make a tulpa if I can just summon the devil right?

[Anonymous No.20863929]

>>20863887
>red headed slut with big tits and bedroom eyes?
I know her
>>20863904
Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat:
ille, inquam, lúcifer, qui nescit occásum.
Christus Fílius tuus,
qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit,
et tecum vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.

May this flame be found still burning
by the Morning Star:
the one Morning Star who never sets,
Christ your Son,
who, coming back from death's domain,
has shed his peaceful light on humanity,
and with you lives and reigns for ever and ever.
Amen.

[Anonymous No.20863945]

>>20863161
Brave and heroic
No wonder you can't grasp it

[Anonymous No.20863995]

>>20863141
>Satan knows the ultimate outcome.
Wow, its like the entire story is a parable about the folly of mortal sinners, or something. Like there's implicit dramatic irony in telling a story that has a foregone conclusion, almost.

[Anonymous No.20864014]

>>20863141
You mean, in paradise lost? I thought the characterization was very strong there, dude is full of self-righteous fury and too arrogant to concede that his rebellion is obviously unjustified just on moral grounds, and he ignores the fact that he has no chance of getting away with it in the same way.

[Anonymous No.20864018]

>>20863182
it's fanfiction all the way down

[Anonymous No.20864021]

>>20863141
Why do you even bother living? God's got it covered, go back into your eternal blissful slumber my friend.

[Anonymous No.20864027]

>>20863175
>I'm unsure if anything can fully comprehend God, not even angels,
>>20863698
>>20863707
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bndL7wwAj0U

Angels on the sideline
***Puzzled and amused
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused***
Don't these talking monkeys know that
Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys
Where there's one you're bound to divide it
Right in two
Angels on the sideline
***Baffled and confused
Father blessed them all with reason
And this is what they choose?***
Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over
Pieces of the ground
Silly monkeys
Give them thumbs, they forge a blade
And where there's one they're bound to divide it
Right in two
Right in two
Monkey killing, monkey killing monkey over
Pieces of the ground
Silly monkeys
Give them thumbs, they make a club
To beat their brother down
How they've survived so misguided is a mystery
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability
To lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here

[Anonymous No.20864032]

>>20863742
>And besides, do angels have free will?
>>20863767
>Not him but God gave the angels free will
see ---->>>20864027

[Anonymous No.20864038]

>>20863904
>reddit asimov
don't ever link that nihilistic, anti-natalistic piece of trash again

[Anonymous No.20864041]

>>20863141
Because it's better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.

[Anonymous No.20864046]

>>20863141
>the point of rebelling against a perfect and omnipotent being?
The Demiurge is not a perfect and omnipotent being. He's a manchild who's insecure about knowledge and insecure about light-bringers.

[Anonymous No.20864047]

>>20864041
but Satan serves no matter what, as his actions are still towards God's ends
he's not ruling anything other than lesser beings, which he's always had the opportunity to do since his creation, as he was one of the higher beings

this is just a cope

[Anonymous No.20864069]

>>20864041
It's literally not. Also God rules hell too.

[Anonymous No.20864070]

Satan didn't have a choice. God either willed rebellion into his heart, or created him with a rebellious nature. Nothing is overlooked by God, no oversights in creation.

[Anonymous No.20864075]

>>20864047
>>20864069
It's what Satan says in Paradise Lost.

[Anonymous No.20864095]

>>20864041
"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee."
- Psalm 139:7-12

[Anonymous No.20864112]

>>20864038
You asked a question and I posted an answer.
Relax, dude :) It's not like you can give me orders or anything

[Anonymous No.20864117]

>>20864070
Gen 6,6 (!)

[Anonymous No.20864325]

>>20863813
Free will is not omnipotence. You can will to do something, but that doesn’t mean that your corporeal being or spirit is capable of doing it. I’d suggest your first book should be a dictionary before you advance to religious scripture.

[Anonymous No.20864354]

>>20863141
>illumination is the opposite of Light
Objected to serving Man.

[Anonymous No.20864559]

>>20864117
That's just plot-induced stupidity.

[Anonymous No.20865338]

>>20863356
Genesis 6:2 ?

[Anonymous No.20865350]

>>20863141
Paradise Lost is FICTION. It isn't real dipshit.

[Anonymous No.20865371]

>>20865338
That's describing humans.

[Anonymous No.20865372]

Christian threads on 4chan are so hard to read. Please learn Orthodox theology

[Anonymous No.20865387]

>>20864117
Literary use of anthropomorphism.

[Anonymous No.20865407]

>>20865372
>Please learn Orthodox theology

What's a good introductory book or two?

[Anonymous No.20865431]

>>20865407
I would recommend "The Religion of the Apostles" by Fr. Stephen de Young. For something a little meatier, "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" by Fr. Michael Pomazansky

[Anonymous No.20865456]

Why do we try to understand the unknowable breadth of something beyond our faculties?
Why do we try to encapsulate within feeble words, and the relations between such weakness, something our imagination can't even comprehend?

[Anonymous No.20865625]

>>20863141

I do believe you have found one of many of the bible's logical inconsistencies, OP! Keep going! There is plenty more fun to be had as there are plenty more to discover!

Just be on the look out for the cooks trying to protect their fairytale from simple math!

[Anonymous No.20865681]

>>20863141

When you are faced with a perfect tyrant, the only morally correct act is to recognize that tyrant for what he is, and to reject that tyrant. No matter what. And that is exactly what he correctly recognized, and that is exactly why he correctly did what he did.

[Anonymous No.20865777]

>>20865625
to foresee something it must actually happen in the future
Time is meaningless for holy beings, the moment satan lost the rebelion is also the same moment he knew he'd lose a year ago

[Anonymous No.20866011]

>>20864041
This is Rick and Morty-tier bullshit from people who miss the point entirely. To be the ruler of hell is to be the most consumed by it, the most hopeless and chaotic. To serve under God, who not only loves you but IS love and glory in itself is infinitely better than being a king of any earthly thing.

[Anonymous No.20866059]

>>20865681
The Lord is no tyrant. He waits for the sinner and gives him time to return. He sent His only Son to die for us, but still lets each individual decide to take the waters of life freely or not.

[Anonymous No.20866071]

>>20864070

[Anonymous No.20866072]

>>20866059

Oh yes he is so, and very obviously so, in many different angles. That fiction is a tyrant on his face, and it is only the depraved submission of men which imagines that fictional creature to be otherwise.

[Anonymous No.20866085]

>>20866072
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
- 1 Timothy 2:3-6

[Anonymous No.20866095]

>>20866085

The quotation of scripture is the unthinking act of the person who is unwilling or unable to directly confront the presented argument. It is an unwarranted form of sentimentality which is meant to bypass reason by citing tradition to make wrongful and manipulative appeals to human emotion.

[Anonymous No.20866252]

>>20863141
read book 12 of the City of God

[Anonymous No.20866264]

>>20863141
Read the bible.

[Anonymous No.20866348]

>>20863141
>Satan knows the ultimate outcome.
And yet he (alongside 1/3 of the angels heaven) does it anyways. That's the point of the character. It's about the act and the symbolism, not the outcome.

This theme, "Why fight when you know you can't win?" is one of the most common in human history. See: The battle of Thermopylae

[Anonymous No.20866431]

>>20864070
LMAO, calvinist keep taking the L

[Anonymous No.20866444]

>>20866348
>See: The battle of Thermopylae
Nothing to do with the topic. They fought because of the Spartan culture, they had a very good reason to do. If they went back, it would've been shameful.

[Anonymous No.20866481]

>>20863651
The thing is Lucifer does not regret. If he did, he arguably could repent for his actions, and return to heaven.

[Anonymous No.20866501]

>>20863141
>lucifer
Why do people use this name for Satan. Can someone show me any verse from any Bible claiming the name for Satan? As far as I'm aware it's irrelevant.

>Why
It's an allegory for when you rebelled against your own parents who love you and want nothing but the best, but you think you know better, thus suffer eternally until you repent.

>my question
Why all the complex philosophical questioning? Just do what's right every chance you get. God will always provide a path for the righteous.

[Anonymous No.20866521]

>>20866501
>It's an allegory
Filtered

[Anonymous No.20866633]

>>20866348
>See: The battle of Thermopylae
Bad analogy. The difference between the Persians and YHWH is that the Persians were not omnipotent. Though the battle was already lost for the Spartans, they had at least something to gain from trying to hold them on (i.e. making the enemy waste time and men). Satan, on the other hand, had NOTHING to gain from rebelling. That's why his choice doesn't make any sense, specially considering how angels are supossed to have much more powerful intellects than humans.

The only logical solution to this question is the calvinist answer, though this of course leads to the unsavory conclusion that God is the author of sin and evil. So I would just recommend leaving Christcuckery altogether.

[Anonymous No.20867042]

>>20863661
Judas exploded in a field, according to the Book of Acts

[Anonymous No.20867086]

>>20863141
He realized his subjectivity.

[Anonymous No.20867108]

>>20863141
He responds directly to this argument in the first book.

What can it then avail though yet we feel
Strength undiminisht, or eternal being
To undergo eternal punishment? [ 155 ]
Whereto with speedy words th' Arch-fiend reply'd.

Fall'n Cherube, to be weak is miserable
Doing or Suffering: but of this be sure,
To do ought good never will be our task,
But ever to do ill our sole delight, [ 160 ]
As being the contrary to his high will
Whom we resist. If then his Providence
Out of our evil seek to bring forth good,
Our labour must be to pervert that end,
And out of good still to find means of evil; [ 165 ]
Which oft times may succeed, so as perhaps
Shall grieve him, if I fail not, and disturb
His inmost counsels from thir destind aim.

[Anonymous No.20867156]

>>20863192
What does islam say about this?

[Anonymous No.20867224]

>>20863141
Bad things are going to happen, and you're not always going to know why.

[Anonymous No.20867318]

>>20866633
Satan doesn't know that God is omnipotent. No it doesn't make sense but neither does christian theology, though it at least it makes a lovely story. God knew men would fall anyway and still went through with the eden thing regardless. Bastard.

[Anonymous No.20867347]

It's better to fight for freedom knowing you will die than to accept being controlled as a cucked slave by an authoritarian, Jewish diety. He did it for mankind, and we should be thankful for it.

[Anonymous No.20867531]

>>20863141
>What is the point of rebelling against a perfect and omnipotent being?
It's about the journey, not the destination.
Alternatively; how do you know he's omnipotent unless you try opposing him?

[Anonymous No.20867583]

>>20865431
Thanks.

[Anonymous No.20867613]

>>20867531
Both the journey and the destination are worthless.

[Anonymous No.20867762]

>>20866501
>Can someone show me any verse from any Bible claiming the name for Satan?
Isaiah 14:12 KJV. This is only place it appears in the Bible. The description of the name Lucifer is "shining one", which is similar to the description given by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:14. This is the accurate translation.

[Anonymous No.20867768]

>>20867042
He hanged himself in the field, and then after hanging himself his body fell and burst open. A very unique judgement to say the least.

[Anonymous No.20867919]

>>20863141
Angels don't have free will, all Satan did was exactly what God wanted him to do.

[Anonymous No.20867921]

>>20867613
not as worthless as admitting there's no point in trying and just accept being cucked.

[Anonymous No.20867977]

>>20866444
And why was it shameful in Spartan culture to turn back from a battle you know you will lose?

>>20866633
Lucifer had no chance of winning, but he did not have nothing to gain (or rather, lose). In rebelling he spares himself, at least symbolically, from an eternity of servitude under an unjust god. He avoids compromising his principles, and his pride.

[Anonymous No.20868046]

>>20867762
If you look at the original Hebrew, you won't find "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12. Instead it is “helel ben shahar” which means “shining one, son of morning” which is a Hebrew word for the morning star, the planet Venus.

[Anonymous No.20868120]

>>20868046
>Instead it is “helel ben shahar”
No it's not. It's הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר . I thought that would be obvious, anon. Hebrew doesn't write with latin characters.

>which means
According to you who didn't know what Hebrew was? It means what it means, anon.

[Anonymous No.20868123]

>>20863141
Because god is a metaphor for children and doesn't exist

[Anonymous No.20868144]

>>20868123
Prove it.
>inb4 n-no y-you prove it
You made the claim, you prove it.

[Anonymous No.20868204]

>>20867977
Satan has the finite to gain. And all of it can be potentially his. But what he lacks is the infinite, and that is the province of faith.

[Anonymous No.20868237]

>>20867977
>In rebelling he spares himself, at least symbolically, from an eternity of servitude under an unjust god. He avoids compromising his principles, and his pride.
What's with the redditors overflow lately

[Anonymous No.20868242]

>>20868144
>you can't prove Santa Claus to be fictional so it must be real

[Anonymous No.20868255]

>>20868242
Prove your claim, don't make the claim, or accept you're a dogmatic absurdist. These are your options, sorry kiddo.

[Anonymous No.20869250]

>>20868255
I've never seen him, nor have you. Ergo, God isn't real.
Burden of proof on you. Refute the primacy of sensory experience.

[Anonymous No.20869276]

>>20869250
>I've never seen him, nor have you. Ergo, God isn't real.
People have seen God. So your only argument is that YOU haven't seen it therefore it doesn't exist. So you must also reject that I exist and everything you haven't directly witnessed.
>Burden of proof on you
Are you ok there buddy? Burder of proof for what? YOU made a claim, YOU defend it. I don't need to defend anything.
>Refute the primacy of sensory experience.
Non sequitur. You're illogical, you should stop making crazy claims on the internet if you can't defend them.

[Anonymous No.20869282]

>>20863578
Not him but, if you don’t want the answer then don’t ask.

[Anonymous No.20869332]

>>20869250
I never seen your brain, nor have you. Ergo, you don't have a brain.

[Anonymous No.20869429]

>>20863151
t. Satan himself

[Anonymous No.20869490]

Because he was based desu

[Anonymous No.20869504]

>actually Satan, your rebellion is all a part of my master plan for the universe. You are nothing but a pawn doing what must be done. I'm still sending you to hell tho lmao

[Anonymous No.20869510]

>>20869504
Who are you quoting? Do you know what free will means?

[Anonymous No.20869521]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTijvw2lyBQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNaTsFxNwJw

these will answer everything

[Anonymous No.20869540]

>>20869510
Wasn't there a part of Paradise lost where it's implied that Satan's rebellion would ultimately work against him and result in the increased glory of God?

[Anonymous No.20869613]

>>20864027
>Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability
>To lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here
one of my favorite lyrics and probably my favorite Tool song

[Anonymous No.20869649]

>>20868237
Yeah? So what do you think is the reason he rebels if not pride?

Retard

[Anonymous No.20869650]

>>20865431
Thank you

[Anonymous No.20871090]

[Anonymous No.20871102]

>>20863151
>he's actually the good guy
No, he wasn't. Read the bible before making asinine claims like this.

[Anonymous No.20871166]

>>20863151
Based and true. Why else would he be called "lightbringer", or "illuminator"? Why else would he be characterized as giving the knowledge of good and evil to mankind? It's obvious if you actually think about it.

[Anonymous No.20871892]

Nice thread, I will bump it.

[Anonymous No.20871958]

The thing is OP, the hypocrisy is intended.

All of Christianity is rife with this bluff of creating situations that are clearly indicative of human literary bias, and every single doctrine is composed with the limited knowledge of people from that time. The only new defining thing about Christianity in respects to monotheistic religion from antiquity is a constant "Oh, you figured out the discrepancy? Well that's part of the test, and if you don't believe so, you got played by the devil". There is literally no winning against christians because of this, it's like trying to argue with your childhood friends where you can clearly see their traumas have totally contrived their outlook on the world.

There are entire parts of the bible editted, to include a popular novel from the 12th century, that was purely done just because the papacy is willing to assimalate literary ideas of the time to increase it's popularity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Legend

The truth of it all is that a book can never describe the infinity of time, and the closest thing to a true papacy is congress of people. These systems are definitely advertised as rife with corruption, but this is the saving grace of actual democracy, a willingness to oust it's foul components, as opposed to the clear corruption that has overcome any of the christian theologies.

Governments are meant to be boring, romantic fantasies of the past are an opiate

[Anonymous No.20871993]

>>20863141
>>20863151
>>20871102
FUN FACT: In Judaism, Jesus is regarded as an incarnation of Samael, i.e. Satan, who is also the heavenly representative of Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael

[Anonymous No.20871996]

>>20871958
Christianity in a nutshell:
https://youtu.be/Ysecinv367w