New Sun Thread

[Anonymous No.20850394]

Is Severian THAT unreliable? I just finished the first book and so far he seems like a complex but sympathetic character, yet I've seen a lot of people with an insane hate boner on him acting like he's a psychopath who is lying about everything that makes him look remotely good. Are they justified? I feel like they are way over reading it, but maybe I haven't been paying proper attention.

[Anonymous No.20850405]

>>20850394
Use the scifi general, retard

[Anonymous No.20850668]

>>20850394
Severian is unreliable but not dishonest, at least not by the end of the Cycle. The novels take him throught a journey of both spiritual and physical transformation, the old "bad person trying to be good". I do think a lot of stuff we read is heavily biased and even incorrect, but people need to tone down the cynicism and understand that Severian changes as much as all other characters.

[Anonymous No.20850687]

>>20850394
Gene Wolfe was a hack, that’s nothing new.

[Anonymous No.20850690]

>>20850394
I think his version of what happens is mostly true but it’s the reactions of people to him you need to look out for.

[Anonymous No.20850815]

>>20850687
Filtered hard

[Anonymous No.20850938]

Similarly read through BotNS recently as a first pass, and have now started the reread with Alzabo Soup companion. I noticed the Alzabo Soup hosts are overly critical of his unreliability and they think his "perfect memory" means he doesn't make mistakes and he should always be perfectly aware of his past, with instant recall.

That said, Severian does play down and obfuscate multitudes of hideous things throughout the books - and the smoke and mirrors act is done at times consciously, and other times subconsciously so identifying such moments can be a bit tricky.

[Anonymous No.20851057]

I finished the first book about two weeks ago. Did the Claw save him during the avern duel? Looking back on it I can't remember whether his reason for survival was explained, or left ambiguous-yet-implied. Or if it's just going to be explained later don't tell me.

[Anonymous No.20851168]

>>20851057
Finish the series, it will make sense.
Then once you are ready, reread and include some research/podcasts, it will make even more sense.

[Anonymous No.20851274]

>>20851057
I think it's either explained in the second or third book

[Anonymous No.20851282]

>>20850394
Enough that you have to read into certain things that happen to approach the truth of them cause he'd prefer to gloss over them.

[Anonymous No.20851379]

I love how there are a lot of throwaway lines which you interpret as figures of speech (the prose can be convoluted so you tend to handwave a few lines here and there as figures of speech) in the first read - and then on your reread you realize he was speaking in a literal sense. In books I have read previously its always the other way around, so it was nifty to see the trick used in this novel way.

[Anonymous No.20851448]

>>20850394
Is this worth reading or is it just a /lit/ meme? I never see people talk about it outside of this board

[Anonymous No.20851451]

>>20851448
A /lit/ meme. The only reason why he gets any praise at all because genrefags never read a story about an unreliable narrator before.

[Anonymous No.20851490]

>>20851451
Sounds about right.

[Anonymous No.20851531]

>>20851451
What are good books with an unreliable narrator?

[Anonymous No.20851601]

>>20851451
It is worth reading, as in all books, read and form your own opinion on it.

[Anonymous No.20851670]

did you leave the book in a little free library
Because I just found a copy of the first two books in the series in one and am beginning to read it. And in the past I have noticed 4chan meme books end up in the LFL's in my neighborhood

[Anonymous No.20851777]

>>20850938
>perfect memory" means he doesn't make mistakes and he should always be perfectly aware of his past, with instant recall.
What the fuck else would perfectemory mean?

[Anonymous No.20851800]

>>20851448
There was an amazing thread on /v/ lead by an Anon from 2chan one or two weeks ago, too bad you missed it

[Anonymous No.20851823]

>>20851800
Oh I got it here
https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/606393270/#q606393270

[Anonymous No.20851832]

>>20850938
>lzabo Soup companion
It's worthwhile to give them a listen because they discuss a lot of details you will miss, but they are turbo redditors with an unreasonable hate for Severian.

[Anonymous No.20851843]

>>20851448
It gets compared a lot to Borges, but it actually reminds me a lot more to Nabokov. If he ever wrote a sci-fi fantasy novel, it would probably been a lot like this.

[Anonymous No.20851873]

>>20851670
>4chan meme books end up in the LFL's in my neighborhood
Based

[Anonymous No.20852108]

>>20851777
It means you can remember everything with excruciating detail - but it is with effort and concentration. It isnt something that just comes out without the labor. You can compare it to having an incorruptible and unlimited library or storage, but having such bank of memories is a whole other process from the "accessing" and "interpreting" of such memories.

Severian talks about his memory recall process in several parts of the novel, but it is first laid out in 'the feast' wherein he said he anchors to a certain point, of recall and has to move forwards and backwards from there.

[Anonymous No.20852122]

>>20850394
Severian is a piece of shit. He's sexist as fuck.

[Anonymous No.20852161]

>>20851832
Yes, I do feel the onions in their words and the hate boner for Sev but they point out some easily missed details.

[Anonymous No.20852219]

>>20851832

[Anonymous No.20853120]

>>20851168
>>20851274
Great, thanks. I remembered there was a scene explaining what happened in the duel, I just couldn't recall if it was a full explanation or one merely in part.
Severian's narration varies in pace a lot, and I've got the impression he never slows down for clarity's sake; but rather self-indulgence. So the information is hard to process for some bits. Loving it so far, though. Both the setting and Severian's character as told through how he narrates really sell the story.

[Anonymous No.20853132]

>>20852161
If you think about it, a podcast with unreliable hosts helping to retread the events of an unreliably narrated story is the perfect fit.

[Anonymous No.20853153]

>>20852219
holy shit thanks anon, i wont listen to them again

[Anonymous No.20853371]

>>20850394

[Anonymous No.20853439]

>>20852122
The male power fantasy and shallow depiction of females characters in BotNS is explained by one of two things: Wolfe is a mysoginist, or Severian is a self-aggrandizing prick and a mysoginist.

[Anonymous No.20853451]

Boring shit, I regret reading.
Things just happen and theres no story or anything.
>Everything will make sense in the end
I kept reading because faggots said that, but no. Nothing is explained, only a few things, but in the end almost everything is pointless. Just Severian going on an adventure and meeting characters, but nothing is relevant to the endgaemme

[Anonymous No.20853629]

>>20850405
Ok, but you go to the asshole general first

[Anonymous No.20853694]

>>20853451
lol dis nigga didnt even read the stage play

[Anonymous No.20854040]

>>20853153
They don't like that bad.

[Anonymous No.20854053]

>>20850394
I never once assumed he was unreliable. I took every single word seriously and saw it has truth. I trusted him from the very beginning. Retards only use the whole „unreliable“ nonsense to justify their own whims when it comes to Severian and his story

[Anonymous No.20854372]

>>20854040
>>20852219
>>20851832
>>20850938
>my face when they start talking about the "rape" in book 2

[Anonymous No.20854386]

>>20853451
holy filtered LMAO

[Anonymous No.20854462]

>>20853694
>>20854386
>Just read it 10 times bro

[Anonymous No.20854491]

>>20851451
That's not it at all. Frankly, Wolfe is one of the best authors who remains squarely within the fantasy genre. Good authors like Calvino or Eco or older technically-fantastical authors like whoever wrote Beowulf have been claimed by /lit/ dorks, so Wolfe is often the first actually decent author pure ssf nerds encounter. It's a "medium fish, microscopic pond" situation.

[Anonymous No.20854713]

>>20851531
Baudolino, Great Gatsby, Mason and Dixon, Lolita, Umineko no Naku Koro Ni.

[Anonymous No.20854970]

>>20853120
You've got to read Urth, I have no idea why it's treated as a companion book instead of a necessary piece of the puzzle. It gets absolutely batshit (even by New Sun standards) but gives explicit answers for most of the questions remaining after Citadel.
>>20851448
It's genuinely good, there's a reason it has a cult following. The way it's written is a built-in filter so a lot of people drop it during the first book, but people who can get into it and stick it out pretty much all worship it.

[Anonymous No.20855085]

>>20854462
Yes.jpg

[Anonymous No.20855115]

>>20854462
Like how many devotees read the Bible again and again throughout their life, so too is Book of the new sun to be read again and again.
Severian is the new son after all

[Anonymous No.20855735]

>>20850394
How did Severian resuscitate the dog without the claw? Is it a power he always had and the claw has nothing to do with it?

[Anonymous No.20855770]

>>20855735
"Read Urth"

[Anonymous No.20855771]

>>20851832
Most of the New Sun/Gene Wolfe explainers get carried away and make shit up. It reminds me of the Ice and Fire theories. There's a bunch of 'Preston Jacobs'.
These stories have a lot of secrets and mysteries, and it's fun to figure them out. But once they got figured out, there's only so much left to talk about, so people start writing fanfiction essentially and reading their own idiosyncratic 'theories' into everything.

[Anonymous No.20855787]

>>20853371
kek

[Anonymous No.20855792]

>>20855771
Alzabo Soup have their place in giving a general rundown for 90IQ subhumans who are incapable of picking up on very basic subtext. But beyond the general consensus there's still a lot of vagueness, especially stuff regarding the end of UotNS and the links to Long/Short Sun. One of my problems with AS is that they speak authoritatively despite a lot of the stuff they say being convenient assumptions that have zero basis in the raw text.

[Anonymous No.20855805]

>>20855792
I don't need "raw text" to know Severian is a misogynist and a rapist.

[Anonymous No.20855822]

>>20855805
How about I rape you in the ass with this raw text and then we will see who the faggot is

[Anonymous No.20855832]

>>20855805
lol faggot

[Anonymous No.20855865]

>>20855805
Bait aside I still don't understand why people take issue with a guy who was literally raised from birth having zero contact with women and receiving an education centered around inflicting pain and death acting like a psycho when he's suddenly released into the real world. If anything, some callousness, disregard for consent, and sprucing-up of his autobiography is pretty good behavior for someone with that background.

[Anonymous No.20855927]

>>20851057
My dude you are literally not finished with the book and asking for a spoiler

[Anonymous No.20855935]

>>20851451
>t. Filtered retard

[Anonymous No.20855947]

>>20855865
not to mention we are analyzing the text from a modern moral frame, whereas what Severian did a hundred million years in this feudal future would obviously have a very different societal reaction.

[Anonymous No.20855969]

>>20852122
Imagine being this soi in 2022

[Anonymous No.20855993]

>>20855735
I'm not gonna spoilerpost because OP didn't finish the series, but basically every single question that you can ask is answered by the end of Urth, if not by the end of citadel.

Does anyone have that pic pf all the characters drawn next to eachother? I saw it once a long time ago but didn't save it

[Anonymous No.20856079]

>>20855792
The also misunderstand a few things, like how they claim the oubliette is exposed to the "elements", when it is clearly underground.
And saying the Vodalus necropolis encounter occurred many years ago before the Thecla incident, but there is only a 2 to 3 year gap between the two events .

[Anonymous No.20856117]

But you guys should give Wolfe's other books more love. Guys who loved it and you guys who got filtered. New Sun is arguably his best work but it's weird and challenging.
Just read Soldier of the Mist. Read fucking The Sorcerer's House. I swear if more of you read Sorcerer's House it would become a meme. There's some shit in there you'll laugh your ass off.

[Anonymous No.20856382]

>>20851832
I’ll just stick to the companion books the other dude wrote for the series instead. That guy worshipped Wolfe and put in the work to make him proud and he doesn’t seem like a fag like the guys you’re talking about

[Anonymous No.20856392]

>>20855947
You’re not wrong but it definitely isn’t that far in the future

[Anonymous No.20856537]

>>20855822
Are these yours? How did you get them?

[Anonymous No.20856571]

>>20854491
Who are the other fantasy/sci-fi authors comparable to Wolfe?

[Anonymous No.20856585]

>>20856537
Not him but the best place is Ebay. Abebooks is ok too but Ebay tends to have better seller photos and the best sellers crosslist the same items on Ebay anyways.
Look for lot auctions. Lots because you save on shipping (as opposed to buying individual books) and auctions because they're almost guaranteed to be cheaper. Most people aren't trolling Ebay looking for specific book auctions unless they're a collector so it'll just be you and the few other people who happen to be looking at that at the time.
But the one thing to know about Ebay auctions if you haven't bought before is that to win you have to be there at the closing seconds. In the last 5 seconds of the auction anyone who really wants the thing will make their hail mary bid to try and secure the auction. So you have to do the same thing and put in the maximum you're willing to pay (you won't have to pay the whole amount unless they nearly matched your bid).
One thing to look out for though is book club editions. These are cheaper versions of the same standard hardcovers, for example those Timescape editions of New Sun. They are slightly smaller and made of cheaper materials, but otherwise look the exact same.
If it's a BCE it will be indicated in the title if it's a good seller, or at least in the description if you scroll down the page. If it's not clear, sometimes the seller also posts a photo of the front matter and BCEs have shorter ISBN which you can cross-reference on ISFDB dot org. If you're trying to buy one of those, offer less than what they're selling it for if possible.
There's lots of hardcover Timescape New Sun editions floating around Ebay of varying quality.

[Anonymous No.20856593]

>>20854713
Umineko is a VN, is this for real good?

[Anonymous No.20856629]

>>20855771
>'Preston Jacobs'.
that guy's theories were 100x better than the actual book series. once i realised it was all bullshit and GRRM was a mediocre hack i lost all interest in both however.

[Anonymous No.20856637]

>>20850668
>Severian is unreliable but not dishonest
Doesn't he outright lie to the reader several times?

[Anonymous No.20856641]

>>20856629
>that guy's theories were 100x better than the actual book series
No they aren't. He's guy is a SJW retard with bad ideas and his TWOW fanfic will be shit.

[Anonymous No.20856642]

>>20856629
I'd counter that it shows the depth of Martin's world when fans are capable of reading so much into his plots and characters. But Jacobs is a great example of what I was talking about. His theories at first were very plausible but then he just takes them further and further until they seem like stupid self-wanking bullshit.

[Anonymous No.20856682]

>>20856641
>He's guy is a SJW retard
probably true. i dont remember desu i stopped watching him many many years ago as when he started doing shit like reading from the books and doing the dialogue in character voices i abandoned him completely out of cringe. i remember being very intrigued and impressed by what i thought were very interesting theories at the time is all.

>>20856642
i agree in part with your first point, i read the entire series in like a month, extremely addictive and i enjoyed them very much at the time. i call him a hack now because i don't remember them very well, he's probably never going to finish them and he's fat.
i don't understand the huge love for this series by Wolfe either desu, I read and enjoyed all of them but only half as much as so many people who love the series very much it seems, not sure why. the pacing of the story felt far too fast for me for one thing, it made the world feel very small. i intend to reread them at some point as that's apparently important.

[Anonymous No.20856686]

>>20853451
literally this. wolfefags are the definition of peak faggotry. read this entire slogfest only to witness the vaguely interesting stuff that was foreshadowed be completely irrelevant and thrown out of the window after a literal deus ex machina comes to yeet the faggot protag to the middle of nowhere in some ocean abandoning any previous semblance of a plot.
the entire shit is just a sword and sorcery bundle of random side quests that accomplish nothing since in the end the only thing mattering is the faggot protag being the promised messiah which was absolutely fucking obvious right from page 1 when he blatantly states it. I'm especially pissed how wolfe handled the only two interesting characters (talos and belanders) by completely fucking off their storyline and making them generic evil mad scientists. i do admit the duel was metal as fuck tho.
>wolfefags explaining how the faggot protag simping for every woman he meets by staring at her "voluptuous" body like a fucking incel multiple times per page is terribly important for the profound meaning of the plot.jpg
>inb4 wolfefags post "filtered" when facing someone who doesn't worship this retarded jack vance fanfiction

[Anonymous No.20856716]

>>20856686
Nice bait but you are a bit too aggressive, tone it down next time

[Anonymous No.20856735]

>>20856716
I think he's just mad he had to read a whole book

[Anonymous No.20857400]

>>20854040
The one on the right gives strong pedo vibes.

[Anonymous No.20857436]

Thanks to this thread I’ve started reading it
I hope it’s a name of the rose kind of book set in a sci-fantasy world

[Anonymous No.20857527]

>>20851800
that thread was great

[Anonymous No.20857632]

>>20852219
>Dorcas was obviously raped!
It's hilarious how these male feminists see rape on everything.

[Anonymous No.20857668]

>>20850394
I keep seeing people saying Wolfe can't write female characters, but I don't see it. Severian is the only character who is fleshed out as a real human being, since he's the narrator, but everyone else, male or female, are written in a more archetypal way, like characters from myths or way of the pilgrim sort of story, and they are pretty well written in that sense.

[Anonymous No.20857679]

>>20851448
gets talked about a lot in fantasy circles. westeros.org voted it the best fantasy series of all time (ahead of ASOIAF and LOTR) iirc

[Anonymous No.20857732]

>>20856392
these are just the first editions without the slipcover

[Anonymous No.20857748]

>>20854040
The bearded guy isn't so bad, but the creepy one is so smug and runs with his headcanon as if it were gospel.

[Anonymous No.20857761]

>>20856686
>(talos and belanders) by completely fucking off their storyline and making them generic evil mad scientists
literally not what was happening. think about baldanders as competing for the messiah part and association with the sea creature gods taking over the world

[Anonymous No.20857769]

I know you dropped S&C off in the little library by the park OP. Are you going to Uni? Thanks for dropping meme books off every once in a while. Thanks to you I have read blood meridian, Moby dick, leviathan, lightning and the sun, the social contract, all the the french existential stuff, dosteovesky's demons, dubliners, confessions of a mask, etc. I wonder how many times we have crossed paths, OP. The note you left in L&tS was cute. "Now this is different!" With a link to the Savitri devi archive. I understand the desire to try amd "redpill" liberal democrat fags here but you are lucky no one turned it into the FBI around here. And trust me, they would. Anyways. Understand there is an anon here who loves to have your sloppy seconds.

[Anonymous No.20857775]

>>20850394
Agia's con is too convoluted. She could have easily made him kill himself by not properly explaining him how to handle the avern, and then she could have stolen his sword. That way his brother wouldn't have to risk himself in a duel.

[Anonymous No.20857779]

>>20856593
no cap

[Anonymous No.20857792]

>>20857769
>based lit bro tries to redpill the normies
>all his books end up in the hands of another lit bro

[Anonymous No.20857801]

>>20856593
No lol. It's dumb fun but it lasts hundreds of hours and has abysmal pacing. The rest of the recommendations are good though.
>>20857779
You stupid newfag, you don't even know what that meme means.

[Anonymous No.20857807]

>>20850394
Without spoiling too much, Severian is actually rewriting BotNS several years after the events of the book. He is playing with his image, trying to impress whoever reads it. That's why it will start making real sense only on second and subsequent readings.
>>20850405
Honestly, we need a /gwolfe/ general.
>>20857775
I think she was one of the previous incarnations' wife or something, so she's still kind of attached to him in a yandere way.
>>20857668
You'll like Long Sun more. There's lots of strong female characters there.

[Anonymous No.20857825]

>>20857792
No the lightning and the sun sat there for a while. There is a group of these little libraries in and around campus in the neighborhoods that I make the rounds to every week or two. It had been there for at least a week or less. A lot of these books will sit for a while. The people in these neighborhoods (the kind that all ordered Ukrainian flags the same week the fighting broke out, and put them up all the same week they got them, to give you an idea) mostly read nicholas sparks, or or leave stacks of the new yorker in these. A lot of books on "the yoga of grief" or "mindfulness for beginners", books on hypno birthing (yeah really) and just other normal fag type of books you would expect 40-something year old moms or urban reddit adjacent men to read. If anything I am rescuing these books, I am somewhat of an environmentalist for endangered or exotic literary species

[Anonymous No.20857889]

>>20857825
I do the same thing in my neighborhood. I walk dogs and come upon niche sci fi/fantasy paperbacks in the little libraries and collect them. I hope one day to read them all and then put them all back into a new little library I create.

[Anonymous No.20857941]

>>20857889
What are some of the books you have found? I have mostly kept my eye out for just classic lit or non fiction philosophy, etc. The book of the new sun was the only sci fi book that seemed good I had seen in one of these in a while and it is pretty good after having just started it. I did see Rendezvous with Rama once and Stranger in a strange land a while back but didnt pick them up as I didnt think I would read them amd I think i read SiaSL a while ago anyways. I did see two terry goodkind fantasy novels in one the other night- faith of the fallen and another, most likely in the Sword of Truth series as well. But again I want to finish BotNS first before I decide to delve into any more sci fi

[Anonymous No.20857956]

>>20857825
You sound like an unpleasant person to be around

[Anonymous No.20858180]

>>20857956
That's by design. Thank you my friend

[Anonymous No.20858226]

>>20856637
Which times?

[Anonymous No.20858238]

>>20850938
>>20851832
Rereading Wolfe is a much better podcast for going over New Sun with an eye for detail. They're still a bit reddit-y but nowhere to the same degree, and really try to give alternative hypotheses for events and motivations, no matter how far-fetched it sounds, even to them. For example they were very fair with the "rape" chapter, not just devolving into MAN BAD.
Gene Wolfe Literary Podcast is good too, but they've been doing his short stories and shorter novels.

[Anonymous No.20858251]

>>20857941
I have almost every Gene Wolfe book but coincidentally I found Free live free, one of the few I don't own. I have found Roger Zelazny's Roadmarks (liked it a lot), some Ursaua le guin, and a few in the series of Callahan's Crosstime Saloon by Spider Robinson. It seems interesting, has anyone read them before?

[Anonymous No.20858265]

>>20854970
>You've got to read Urth, I have no idea why it's treated as a companion book instead of a necessary piece of the puzzle.
It isn't strictly speaking -necessary- but it expands on many subtle points. Though I agree that it ought to be read anyways, it's a beautifully written book.

[Anonymous No.20858269]

>>20855993
This one?

[Anonymous No.20858273]

>>20856392
>he doesn't know

[Anonymous No.20858278]

>>20856117
>Read fucking The Sorcerer's House.
Just finished this a couple weeks ago. Absolutely wild ride. Didn't pick up on Bax is actually under the spell of a Greek monster that devours him in the end until the last chapter.

[Anonymous No.20858282]

>>20858269
>>20855993
I really dislike this tumblr computer stylis art. It is so bland and uninteresting. The pages inside the 90s 3 issue comic are so much more interesting. You should all take a peak.

[Anonymous No.20858285]

>>20857775
They had done the con successfully several times before. And it did in fact work, until Sev came back to life.

[Anonymous No.20858297]

>>20858282
I agree, but there's scant fanart as it is, especially of characters other than Severian. Personally I like the Amano covers even if they're over the top, and I actually enjoy the illustrations done for the Folio edition, they've got just the right amount of surreality.

[Anonymous No.20858311]

>>20858269
I usually don't pay much attention to descriptions, so I surely missed it, but is it ever stated that torturers don't wear shirts?

[Anonymous No.20858319]

>>20858311
It's mentioned a few times, iirc once near the beginning the masters are described as shirtless, then again during one of Severian's executions.

[Anonymous No.20858364]

Japanese editions

[Anonymous No.20858440]

>>20857807
Long sun was legitimately boring as shit and the female characters are all mostly annoying. Hyacinth isn’t even a character that shows up a single time in the series, she’s just a flesh sack for kypris. And now I can’t stop wondering, is Silk actually in love with Hyacinth during the entire series or is he in love with the god?

[Anonymous No.20858443]

>>20850394
gene wolfe is just trolling you negros.

[Anonymous No.20858462]

>>20858269
Is it ever explicitly stated the torturers don’t wear shirts?

[Anonymous No.20858469]

>>20857807
Has there ever been a /lit/ BotNS reading thread? Seems like there could be a lot to unpack for each chapter and there will undoubtedly be some very interesting discussion between repeat readers. Could be a weekend thing to tread over 5~ chapters at a time.

[Anonymous No.20858471]

>>20858364
Did they get the old school final fantasy cover artist to do these because that’s the vibe they give.

[Anonymous No.20858501]

>>20858471
Yeah. That's clearly the work of Amano.

[Anonymous No.20858503]

>>20858462
During one of Sev's executions

[Anonymous No.20858530]

>>20858364
Id like a poster of the middle one

[Anonymous No.20858540]

>>20858282
I like some panels quite a bit, but the faces are pretty rough sometimes too. Always love seeing fan art just because of how different but recognizable the interpretations are, wish there was more

[Anonymous No.20858550]

>>20858503

[Anonymous No.20858642]

What the fuck is the atrium of time?

[Anonymous No.20858756]

>>20858440
Long Sun is a masterpiece. Everything you've learned from Wolfe coming from New Sun is amplified, and when the plot unravels, the book delivers an uncontrollable orgasm of literary genious!
>>20858469
I've only been frequenting /lit/ for a year and there was no such thing during my stay. I wouldn't mind participating in it, but other posters would just bully us for being soulsfags and whatnot.

[Anonymous No.20858826]

>>20858462
I always imagined Severian being dressed in normal tunics except when he's executing people. I doubt he fights in the war shirtless. In fact I'm sure he wears an argentine uniform near the end of the 4th book and during the 5th book.

[Anonymous No.20858908]

>>20858364
This is some of the best art for BotNS I have ever seen.

[Anonymous No.20858918]

>>20850394
Should I get the four primary books separately or the two combined volumes (Claw/Conciliator + the other one)?

[Anonymous No.20858923]

>>20858918
If you like the covers, buy them separately, if not, buy the bundles. Don't forget the Urth of the New Sun and Lexicon Urthus.

[Anonymous No.20858930]

>>20852219
>>20854040
These niggas act as if Severian was someone they know from real life and they absolutely hate his guts, so they made a podcast about his biography to gossip and talk about how everything in it is a lie to make himself look good.

[Anonymous No.20858941]

>>20858923
Lexicon Urthus shouldnt be used for a first read IMO

[Anonymous No.20858945]

>>20858311
>>20858462
His execution in Saltus mentions it, at the very least. The one where he parades around the woman's decapitated head like a jock while the crowd cheers him on.
The imagery is a hell of a lot better with Severian being shirtless.

[Anonymous No.20858954]

>>20858550
Hey buddy, I think you got the wrong door. The House Absolute is two blocks down.

[Anonymous No.20859007]

>>20850394
This book reads like Nabokov writing an anime.

[Anonymous No.20859030]

Came here to say that I fucking hate Book of the Long Sun. But in the end it's a very long and very boring prequel to the best part of the solar cycle: Book of the Short Sun. If any of you lads loses interest in Long Sun I say it's well fucking worth it to trudge through in order to read Short Sun. Fucking kino above kino, maybe even better than New Sun. Amazing books.

[Anonymous No.20859036]

>>20858826
He's shirtless most of the time. Lil' Sev makes a point asking him why he's shirtless all the time in Sword when they're treking theough the mountains. He also mentions himself that he felt cold up there because he was shirtless

[Anonymous No.20859045]

>>20858941
Absolutely this. The two times I flipped through the copy I got while halfway through the story spoiled pretty major parts of the book, won't pick it up until I'm done with urth

[Anonymous No.20859053]

>>20858941
I think it should be read before the novels. I would never have read them unless I read Lexicon first.
>>20859036
Well, he ran off while wearing his torturer costume. It's not like he brought any luggage with him.
>>20859045
Do you consider reading history books before reading historic novels spoilers too?

[Anonymous No.20859068]

>>20858642
>"urth answers all the questions!"
>severian: btw valeria is my wife now
I was sure the Atrium didn't exist in Severian's own timeline and he got there by traveling the corridors, so that she might disappear like Ash if he removed her but idfk

[Anonymous No.20859079]

>>20858930
My biggest complaint with AS is that they're constantly questioning Severian's memory while completely ignoring how eidectic memory works for people in real life. Most of what Sevarian says (with a couple exceptions) seems to me in line with how it works for people irl. Even those couple exceptions have a somewhat reasonable explanation that they usually either ignore or gloss over

[Anonymous No.20859100]

>>20859053
History books are history. This is a narrative. Narratives have twists and reveals constructed by the author. Historical fiction takes for granted historical events could easily be known prior to reading.

[Anonymous No.20859122]

>>20850394
Who is your New Sun waifu, bros? For me it's Jolenta.

[Anonymous No.20859164]

>>20859068
He wrote her out of the books because
A) Thecla probably hated him for having feelings towards her
B) He wanted to keep his marriage private

[Anonymous No.20859166]

>>20859122
Valeria, obviously.

[Anonymous No.20859180]

>>20859166
I like how Wolfe describes her complexion something along the lines of "strawberries poured into cream". I know exactly what he's talking about. He was a patrician woman enjoyer.

[Anonymous No.20859183]

Can someone give me a rundown on Achu-poncho guy (or whatever he's called) and the giants living in the sea ?

[Anonymous No.20859206]

>>20859183
>giants living in the sea
There's gigantic 'godlike' alien beings called Erebus and Abaia, Erebus lives in the north pole and he controls Ascia, Abaia is the one who lives in the water. They came from space a long time ago after humans overreached their expansion and found bad shit that followed them back (which is why the autarch doesn't want humans to expand into space, Vodalus is fighting to do this). Abaia takes human women and transforms them over time into those giant undine. They want to destroy Nessus/the autarch and stop Severian from reviving the sun, so they can control earth.
>Apu-Punchau
Is literally Severian, you see how that happens exactly in Urth.

[Anonymous No.20859219]

>>20859206
How am I supposed to get all of that ? Is it in the play ?

[Anonymous No.20859220]

>>20859030
Agreed, Short Sun is the peak.

[Anonymous No.20859230]

>>20859219
>Is it in the play ?
Yes, along with everything else. Though it's in the stories as well.

[Anonymous No.20859243]

>>20859180
She has so little screen time, but this paragraph alone sets up most of the Solar Cycle lore it's unbelievable on the first reading. I love her so much because she outlines the puzzle, and I can now start to solve it piece by piece towards the centre.

[Anonymous No.20859245]

>>20859219
Uhh other than the undines originally being human all of that I picked up just from reading the base series (as in, not including Urth of the New Sun). Each of those details is mentioned in passing here and there or could be inferred.
I guess the part about the specifics of why the 'gods' are on Urth is a little vague and I'm somewhat giving an interpretation. It's never explained in detail but that's basically the gist. All the alien biology on Urth is from other planets, or they're gene-spliced hybrids of alien and earth biology.

[Anonymous No.20859249]

>>20859243
wrong image. excuse me for acting like a cacogen.

[Anonymous No.20859307]

>>20859249
I still don't get it. It's going to be one of the main reason I reread the series next year.
I remember what the well of orchids is, so I understand what she's saying there: Her family is not beholden to the autarch, doesn't have the same responsibilities as the other exultant families. I don't know why, what's special about them. I know she is probably a 'test tube baby'.
It's strange to me that the only other person in the residence with her is an old serving woman. We don't know if she has living parents, it seems like she's there by herself. Everything about it is strange.

[Anonymous No.20859323]

Will I lose a lot if I read a translation ?

[Anonymous No.20859334]

>>20859323
I've read it in spanish and english and the experience is basically the same.

[Anonymous No.20859344]

>>20859053
>costume
I don't think he would appreciate you calling it that, anonkun

[Anonymous No.20859347]

This might be a major spoiler zone.
Valeria's family always wished to be boarded on Whorl ship, the giant hollow meteor populated by the Monarch's servants, some of which are test tube babies. They wanted a place in court (House Absolute) in current Autarch regime, but they've faded into irrelevancy.
On the bright side, Valeria's wishes came true.

[Anonymous No.20859356]

>>20859219
Just read the books. Then read them again. As long as you pay some amount of attention you’ll see all of this.

[Anonymous No.20859359]

>>20859164
He didn't write about her primarily because she wasn't there for the part of the story he was writing. BotNS was "gate to gate" because that was the story of how he became autarch. Urth was the story of how the New Sun came. If Thecla had a problem with Valeria, Severian wouldn't have married her to begin with (probably)

Also Jolenta consented

[Anonymous No.20859367]

>>20859030
>>20859220
Can you tell me what you found so exceptional about Short Sun? I think I got filtered. I read it a while ago and though I liked it I definitely didn’t find the experience as amazing as New Sun.

[Anonymous No.20859412]

>>20858269
>severian smaller than thecla
lol ok

[Anonymous No.20859430]

>>20859412
Is this a joke? The most distinct description of Thecla, repeated several times, is how fuckhuge tall she is.

[Anonymous No.20859433]

>>20859412
Thecla was described as much taller than Severian, who is already taller than most people.

[Anonymous No.20859434]

>>20859007
Ok I am now convinced to finally read Nabokov

[Anonymous No.20859444]

>>20858954
>Fuck you.
>Hey fuck you, fugilin-head! I'll show you who's Autarch of this Urth.

[Anonymous No.20859454]

>>20859412
>She was taller even than I had expected, nearly too tall to stand upright in the cell.
>Her face, though it was triangular rather than heart-shaped, reminded me of the woman who had been with Vodalus in the necropolis. >Perhaps it was her great violet eyes, with their lids shaded with blue, and the black hair that, forming a V far down her forehead, suggested the hood of a cloak.
>Whatever the reason, I loved her at once loved her, at least, insofar as a stupid boy can love. But being only a stupid boy, I did not know it.

[Anonymous No.20859498]

Does anyone else get rock hard when reading about Jolenta?

[Anonymous No.20859537]

>>20859498
For me it was the first woman who presents herself in the House Azure.

[Anonymous No.20859569]

>>20859498
Fellow non-consent connoisseur

[Anonymous No.20859583]

The death of Apian (2.353-57) has an obvious eucharistic resonance. Patterns of action, submerged liturgical texts and hymns, and the Latin subtext together reveal that resonance to be a thorough example of allegorical evocation, couched in the traditional presentation of Catholic sacramental language and practice. Most obviously, the possibility of union and cosmic restoration depends on an execution: this is Calvary. Before Severian can eat the sacrifice, he is first covered in Apian's blood, recalling absolution. Severian acknowledges his treason and Apian's claim on his loyalty, signifying agnoscens as the patristic etymology for St. Peter the apostle. (50) Having already expressed his love and wept in contrition for his lack of love and false convictions, Severian is then washed in the blood of the victim immediately before consuming. Here, the discipline of receiving sacraments in a state of grace is vividly enacted.

In this scene more than any other, it matters that New Sun claims to be a translation with a problem of future language (1.211). In Augustine's Sermon 272 given to neophytes on the Eucharist he said, "Estote quod videtis, et accipite quod estis." (51) Estote as the present tense of edo, edesse means to eat. As the future tense of sum, esse means to become. The mechanism of autarchal succession enacts Augustine's wordplay: to become or eat "what you discern, and receive what you are." That Wolfe does not show the actual event is strategy rather than literary reticence, because he makes the reader blind, ignarus. Augustine's "quod videtis" interrogates the reader: does the reader see the hidden texts? Does the reader recognize Augustine's words and the interpretive tradition that distinguish the Eucharist from cannibalism? Will the reader be ignarus and see the agnotio of Agia, or will recognition, agnoscens, reveal the sacrifice in St. Peter's Church? Concealing the action forces Augustine's "quod videtis" and invites the reader to participate in the enacted liturgy: "Ecce Agnus Dei." The Eucharist is the source of the saint's deification and Augustine's "receive what you are" applies equally to the Eucharist and the identity of New Sun. Every reader who accepts the text's invitation is potentially a New Sun, a saint. Wolfe builds into his work the four marks of the Church because its center and purpose is the same. The reader who discovers New Sun's meaning to be holy, catholic, and apostolic participates in its unity. That participatory relationship between reader and text requires the Latin subtext. The reader who interprets Apian's death correctly takes the body from the spike in an ex-cruciation, correctly sees the transitus and translates it.

[Anonymous No.20859590]

>>20859583

[Anonymous No.20859637]

>>20851451
If BoTNS is genre fiction then """""literary""""" fiction is boring pseud shit. I would almost feel sorry for people like you if you weren't such bitter spite-ridden retards every time a """"genre"""" books gets brought up.

[Anonymous No.20859771]

>>20859637
>>20859637
It's tough cause pure literary scholars like grad students will find it a little juvenile but to regular genre fiction readers it will seem needlessly cryptic and pretentious.

[Anonymous No.20859794]

>>20859771
>pure literary scholars like grad students
pseuds. you mean pseuds.

[Anonymous No.20859826]

>>20859206
I thought the undine were a slave race that those two brought, based on Sev killing the prepubescent girl in who was already big enough to pass as a large man is there evidence that they're fucked-up humans?

[Anonymous No.20860034]

>>20859498
Whenever her beauty is described it's exaggerated to the point of sounding cartoon-like, so I end up just thinking of jessica rabbit

[Anonymous No.20860041]

>>20860034
>I end up just thinking of jessica rabbit
How do you not get hard?

[Anonymous No.20860074]

>>20859537
For me its the second woman who Roche insta gets, patrician taste

[Anonymous No.20860082]

>>20857807
>”strong” female characters

[Anonymous No.20860094]

>>20850394
>Is Severian THAT unreliable?
not any more so than the average person. he puffs himself up a bit and glosses over stuff that might make him look bad but he's not a psychopath.
the thing that makes BOTNS so interesting for me is getting to see a weird, alien world through the eyes of someone who feels like an actual complete, flawed person, instead of an omniscient third person narrator. it's a fantasy/ sci-fi heroes journey epic written in a modernist literary style.

[Anonymous No.20860132]

>>20859206
Something else I thought about the sea giants
Weren't they basically successful? In fact, Severian's success is their success, as the coming of the New Sun washes away everything in a great flood and they can only survive underwater. This is the reason why he was saved by Juturna, and why he was viewed as an ally by Abaia

[Anonymous No.20860150]

>>20860132
That's what I thought as well, but if that's the case, why do they send the assassin to kill severian on the tzadkiel's ship in Urth if he's trying to bring about the great flood?

[Anonymous No.20860167]

>>20859569
Agree. She's the definition of asking for it.
>Jolenta rape baits
>redditors: NOOOO! YOU CANNOT RAPE HER!

[Anonymous No.20860207]

>>20860082
I'm about to finish my first reading of CoC, needless to say I appreciated Shadow of The Torturer. However, by the end of the first half of it it dawned on me that Wolfe's female characters are my least favorite kind. First off, up till what I've been reading, they sound almost as flat as an ironing board, save for Dorcas who stirs my curiosity, Jolenta and the other female characters are downright one dimensional and dull to the core, naturally I haven't forgotten I'm still wondering if there are any STRONG female characters, Severian used to talk quite a lot about the witches' guild, why can't they just introduce one damn girl who isn't either a whore or a pussy to begin with? But most of all, the thing that grinds my gears is that Severian appears to wish to fuck literally every woman in the book. Jolenta's boobs and sexy bootie? I want to fuck her. Dorcas' purity and cute appearance? I want to shove terminus est in her ass, I'm overreacting and making fun of it, but in truth I didn't take it as a positive thing. I enjoyed thoroughly Wolfe's work, but lately it seems to be taking a turn for the worse, and I mean it's almost as if it's striving to become a porno. How did Severian get from a level-headed guy to a super hormonal cock train? Those scenes are incredibly repetitive, and utterly repelling, in my opinion. As a man I don't feel turned on at all, just tremendously disgusted. Will it get any better?

[Anonymous No.20860212]

>>20850394
You read this bc Sam Hyde recommended it

[Anonymous No.20860229]

>>20860094
he is flawed teen jesus

[Anonymous No.20860242]

>>20860207
You're noticing something that is there to be noticed. Severian's views on and treatment of women are abhorrent. The problem is that you're conflating Severian's views and behaviors with Wolfe's direction as a writer. Wolfe wants you to be disgusted by these things.

[Anonymous No.20860245]

>>20860167
You have to remember that it's Severian who is telling you that Jolenta is irresistible. Listen to how Severian justifies his actions with her. They basically boil down to the classic rape deflections. "Look at how she's made herself look, she's partially to blame for this." "It seemed pretty clear to me that she wanted it." Severian the Narrator is incapable of admitting (maybe even incapable of realizing) that maybe the problem isn't that she made him do it--maybe the problem is that he's a rotten person.

[Anonymous No.20860264]

>>20860242
>Severian's views on and treatment of women are abhorrent
How?
>Wolfe wants you to be disgusted by these things
???

[Anonymous No.20860269]

>>20860242
No he treats them fine, better than most men I'm sure in their world and in our current time. They like him and most of them are his friends. It's normal man/woman interaction.

[Anonymous No.20860283]

>>20860242
Nobody was disgusted by using sleeping Jolenta as a sex doll. That would be a highlight of any man's life.

[Anonymous No.20860285]

>>20860207
Severian is a villain in the story. That's really the key to it. Villains do bad things. If you want to read a story about a hero, read something else.

[Anonymous No.20860309]

>>20860207
Thats par for the course for women in BoTNs, esp since its always Sev's POV, contextualized by his upbringing at the guild and how he is a horny aolescent in the events of the book. Sev only has two views of women, virginal beauties or disgusting whores-- its quite funny how Jolenta became so beautiful, his opinion of her turns full 180 until the House of Absolute play, and then once she deteriorates, he is a full Dorcas simp again. He might like to pomp up his view on love and relationships, but in reality he is a total horndog with shallow preferences. He does grow a bit by UotNS though.

[Anonymous No.20860315]

>>20860285
>Severian is a villain in the story
>Is a literal christ figure who battles the temptations of satan (Typhon)
>Battles the mind virus commie Ascians.
>Ends not only women thousands of years ago from being cruel torturers but ends his guild completely

[Anonymous No.20860321]

>>20860285
I prefer to have villains with dignity in my books. Going around raping every girl that passes beside you isn't even "bad", it's just horrid and idiotic. "Even Evil Has Standards" does it ring a bell?

[Anonymous No.20860344]

>>20860321
He only rapes Jolenta. Why does the sex in New Sun make anons lose their grip on reality? You guys seem to have read the books yet you can't get basic facts straight.

[Anonymous No.20860356]

>>20860344
>He only rapes Jolenta
It seems as though YOU have read the books yet can't get the basic facts straight.

[Anonymous No.20860360]

>>20852219
>Alzabo Soup are bunch of normie nerds that talk about SFF and look Derpy
Woahhhhhhhhhhhhh who could possibly have known?

[Anonymous No.20860365]

>>20860356
Go ahead, who does he rape? I dare you to say Daria.

[Anonymous No.20860366]

>>20860344
He didn't rape anyone. Jolenta was asking for it. Severian is unironically mostly heroic and noble to a fault.

[Anonymous No.20860368]

>>20850394
keep going, youll see.

[Anonymous No.20860373]

>>20860365
No, you misunderstand me. He rapes no one

[Anonymous No.20860374]

>>20860366
Nah she was passed out asleep. That incident stands out for a reason, that's why people discuss it.

[Anonymous No.20860375]

>>20860344
It really is a weird sticking point for so many people. Just say Severian raped Jolenta, and that's a good thing (because it is)

[Anonymous No.20860377]

>>20860365
Jolenta did not give consent. But she liked it. But it was still rape

[Anonymous No.20860379]

>>20860212
You're thinking of Fourth Mansions :)

[Anonymous No.20860387]

>>20860374
If I had a dollar for every passed out girl I had sex with and it was no issue I'd have 7 dollars

[Anonymous No.20860390]

>>20860387
Bro... I think you may be a rapist.

[Anonymous No.20860392]

>>20860379
You are thinking of Past Master :)

[Anonymous No.20860399]

>>20860392
Was it? I remember whichever it was that had a yellow cover. Thought it was a funny coincidence at the time because I had just started reading Lafferty's short stories after seeing Wolfe recommend him in an interview.

[Anonymous No.20860413]

>>20860399
yes If I remember correctly in one of Sam's early gumroad videos, might be the first, he mentions Past Master, which I have read but I have not read Fouth Mansions. Have you? it seems good. But Lafferty is more confusing to me than Wolfe.

[Anonymous No.20860467]

>>20860413
It is very good, most of his stuff is, but it's an acquired taste. Sooner or later you learn to just flow with the weirdness.

[Anonymous No.20860472]

>>20860467
ya but like wolfe, I want to understand it. Past Master was very interesting but I didn't understand what half of the characters were even doing or how they were there or what the ending meant.

[Anonymous No.20860480]

>>20860094
>glosses over stuff that might make him look bad
There are several times he describes scenes in which he paints himself in a negative light. For example, when he hesitated when trying to save Lil' Sev's mother from the alzabo. (And when he later lies to him about it) He could have easily just said that he'd charged in with no regard for his own self. Also when he's tells us how Typhon overpowered him, he made himself look weak and submissive. he's clearly more concerned about truth and accuracy than making himself look good

>>20858269
Almost, fren, but the one I remember was in color and had many more characters. Even minor ones. I think it's the same artstyle tho

[Anonymous No.20860489]

>>20860344
It wasn't rape. If a woman gets on a boat with you, she understands the implication

[Anonymous No.20860502]

>>20860264
Disregard that anon's opinions. He's clearly some kind of male feminist or female (male) if he has that view on the Jolenta question

[Anonymous No.20860508]

>>20860489
>the implication

[Anonymous No.20860512]

>>20860285
calling him the villian is the most retarded thing I've ever heard. He literally saves the entire planet from a slowdeath

[Anonymous No.20860517]

>>20860512
I like Severian as a chapter (not as a person) but he's a villain. Heroes don't rape.

[Anonymous No.20860528]

>>20860517
Not all heroes wear capes but some rape, yet Severian wears a cape and has never raped.

[Anonymous No.20860537]

>>20860517

>mercy kills Thecla
>heals people all the time
>puts himself in danger to heal the girl in the jacal
>trying to save Lil' Sev's family
>sparing that old bitch and betraying his profession
>ending the practice of torturing entirely
>rescues Pia from slavery
>herena
>HERENA
>literally Herena what he does to herena is enough to make him a hero a thousand times over
>etc.

Get fucked retard. Having some flaws doesn't make him a villian (also she consented)

[Anonymous No.20860568]

>>20860207
>a level-headed guy

[Anonymous No.20860576]

>>20860377
This.
It was rape, but good rape.

[Anonymous No.20860580]

>>20860517
Rance and Rapeman are both heroic rapists, in fact they use rape for Good.

[Anonymous No.20860809]

Rape thread?

[Anonymous No.20861181]

>>20859367
My favorite aspect is definitely the entire arc of horn dying and being reincarnated in silk and coming to terms with his new identity

[Anonymous No.20861210]

>>20851451
>The only reason why he gets any praise at all because genrefags never read a story about an unreliable narrator before.
Fucking A. Finally, someone said it.

[Anonymous No.20861216]

>>20858756
You never answered my question though. Is silk in love with the hooker he never met or the god who possessed her the entire series? Also how does she die in short sun? It’s been a few years but I don’t remember her being mentioned more than her dying and it’s the reason it killed silk

[Anonymous No.20861275]

>>20861210
The "praise of an unreliable narrator" is the meme. Wolfe does plenty of interesting things with the story, this isn't even in the top 10

[Anonymous No.20861286]

>>20861275
Right. The "unreliable" narration was just an initial trick for getting 80s genrefags to use their brain a bit. Whining about it is good mark of a filtered midwit.

[Anonymous No.20861296]

>>20861286
Bitching about an unreliable narrator is just the sign of a genuine midwit. Nobody in their right mind would criticize Lolita because the narrative isn’t reliable, they only do it to Wolfe because they weren’t smart enough to comprehend the plot and it hurts their self esteem that they aren’t as intelligent as they pretend they are.

[Anonymous No.20861424]

>>20861216
How are you determining when she's possessed by Kypris and when she isn't? When Chenille is, it's obvious. Seems like it's your pet theory.

[Anonymous No.20861534]

>>20861424
>your pet theory
It’s a pretty recognized theory by the entire community that hyacinth never actually shows up in the entire series. Just go back to any section of the book she’s in and reread her actions. There are parts where she pirouettes through a war zone effortlessly and basically jumps 10 feet in the air

[Anonymous No.20861625]

>>20861216
I've only read the Book of the Long Sun. Silk is enchanted by Hy because they're probably reincarnations/clones of Pas and Kypriss. Horn, the author of BotLS openly hates Hyacinth, and so do I. That's probably why she lacks personalisation. I wish she never met poor Silk. In the end of BotLS, she acts like a hoe by cheating on Silk after one or two days of marriage, then she refuses to evacuate and runs off into the volley of cannon fire and retard Silk runs after her.

[Anonymous No.20861986]

>all these niggas didn't realize that Hyacinth was an inhuma
>in exodus it's said pretty explicitly that Hy doesn't eat anything
>Chenille says that Hy's beauty is weird, like if you actually study her face it looks off
>super strength like >>20861534
says
Reread the conversation with Horn and Silk on the airship in Exodus. Silk is literally about to kill himself, and in his sherlock ways he starts outlining his reasoning for doing so. He starts taking about how strange it is that Hy got seemingly beaten up by Chenille,
a much larger woman than her, but then Hy easily fights off a Trivigaunte trooper when she's fighting for her life. Then he starts talking about when he first had sex with Hy seemingly out of nowhere. This is probably found out that she was an inhuma. This conversation between Silk and Horn gets cut off at the end so he never gets to do his grand Sherlock Holmes reveal like he always does, so Horn never figured out the truth.

[Anonymous No.20862200]

>>20861986
But the pope was the inhumu and Hy was possessed by Kypriss while hanging out with Silk.

[Anonymous No.20862300]

>>20860321
>using tv tropes
go back

[Anonymous No.20862466]

>>20862200
>But the pope was the inhumu
>implying there can only be one inhumu in the entire Whorl

>and Hy was possessed by Kypriss while hanging out with Silk.
If even animals can be possessed by gods then inhumi certainly can be too. Being possessed doesn't confer superhuman powers like Hy has, and it doesn't mean that they are "posessed" all the time. Jerboa had Pas in him for basically his entire life, even Silk likened it to gods "sleeping" in people and cropping up whenever.

[Anonymous No.20862796]

>>20854372
I rolled my eyes so many times during that dude. On both my read throughs that never stuck out to me as some heinous thing, yet these guys held it up like it was Sev’s ultimate sin or something because she didn’t verbally give consent. For two guys who harp on and on about the little details they sure ignored a lot of context in that moment.

[Anonymous No.20862865]

>>20858238
Thanks for the rec, started the pod and yes, Rereading Wolfe is miles better than AS.

[Anonymous No.20863059]

>>20861534
>There are parts where she pirouettes through a war zone effortlessly and basically jumps 10 feet in the air
I'm sure you immediately dismissed pic related as not real either when you first read it too. But you were supposed to take it literally.

[Anonymous No.20863118]

>>20861534
Fuck the community. She doesn't jump 10 feet in the air, that doesn't happen.

[Anonymous No.20863138]

>>20860537
>can smuggle her out easily, but doesn't because only mercy he knows is death
>sends them off to the hills, follows them from a safe distance, only kills the mutants after they skirmish with the alzabo
>sends his guildsmen to a round of torture
>rapes Pia as well

[Anonymous No.20863142]

>>20862466
Then why doesn't Oreb call her a bad thing?

[Anonymous No.20863146]

>>20862796
I read the passage under the assumption Jolenta was simply ambivalent to whether Severian fucked her. From all the information we get as readers about what happened before and after the boat ride that seems to be the case, even on re-reading it. She's lying there, knows she's hot as fuck, knows Severian and clearly trusts him enough to put herself in that situation. If him trying to fuck her was some great surprise or betrayal she would have put up at least some resistance changed her behavior towards Severian after, which she did not.

[Anonymous No.20863147]

>>20860207
I have to agree. I love Book of the New Sun except for the female characters. I think, like Tolkien, it's the one thing that keeps the series from being truly great. I mean once I stop to think about it...is there really any female character that has an equal relationship with Severian or is ever in any position of Power? Maybe Agia?

I mean unreliable narrator, sure, I guess that might explain it...but that just seems to be a convenient rationalization imo.

I love the setting, and I love the story, but this one thing I just can't get over.

[Anonymous No.20863167]

>>20863147
Do you like being femdomed or something? Do you refuse to work jobs without female bosses? Why are you so insistent there be women with power over the protagonist of a story? Most men throughout history have lived their entire lives without being under the authority of a single woman besides their mothers during childhood.

[Anonymous No.20863169]

>>20863118
She jumps onto a moving floater like it was nothing in chapter 9 of book 3

[Anonymous No.20863178]

>>20863169
I know, you're a hyperbolic bitch.

[Anonymous No.20863183]

>>20863147
Easily Agia and with obvious limitations Thecla. Apheta dominates him in every conceivable way too

[Anonymous No.20863185]

>>20862796
If Jesus Christ our lord and savior rapes you it isn’t a sin so even if it was rape, which it wasn’t, then it’s not a crime.

[Anonymous No.20863201]

>>20863178
>it’s hyperbolic to say the woman can jump 10 feet into the air when she easily jumps onto a moving vehicle floating in the air
Mkay retard

[Anonymous No.20863255]

>>20863142
Funnily enough a lot of instances of Oreb saying "Bad Thing!" also have Hyacinth in the scene. This is exactly the type of Gene Wolfe misdirection and fuckery I expect when he's trying to hide a secret.

[Anonymous No.20863263]

>>20863255

[Anonymous No.20863304]

>>20850394
This was okay, but Malazan was better. Way more complex.

[Anonymous No.20863595]

>>20863147
what are you such a sissy ass faggot? Do you pay for only fans and are a pay piggy too?

[Anonymous No.20863840]

>>20863059
Wolfe is really good at sneaking things like this by you on a first read that are blindingly obvious later.
Another good example is early in BoTNS when Severian literally calls a part of the tower the "vehicles combustion chamber". [/spoiler[

[Anonymous No.20864226]

>>20863840
>vehicles combustion chamber
tf is that? is he self-aware now?

[Anonymous No.20864254]

>>20863147
Dont forget everything is in the lens of Severian, who was raised knowing only of women as something either hideous/creepy (Witches guild) or something to control/dominate/torture, with the guild clients.

[Anonymous No.20864719]

>>20851800
I was there. Good times. OP was freaking me out in the beginning because I thought he was gay, but I guess that's just how Japanese act online.

[Anonymous No.20864753]

Someone give me a QRD on Baldanders. I just finished my second read of New Sun and still don't get what his deal was.
I've seen people say he was a potential candidate for bringing the New Sun, but I don't remember any evidence of this other than the heirodules gangstalking him. If so, why would they bother with him when Severian is basically predestined by Tzadkiel to bring it, something they would know since they travel backwards through time? Why was he wasting his time lording over some minor fishing village if he was either trying to become Jesus or was rebelling against the New Sun (I remember Sev concluding that the fat boytoy in his fortress was like the undine kid he killed on the ship)? Why was he hanging out with Valeria before the flood? Why did he bail and abandon his slavery project without attempting to kill Sev after he'd decisively won their fight?
I almost wish I'd never read Urth, the time travel shit just makes smoke come out of my ears when I try to understand it.

[Anonymous No.20864849]

>>20864753
>the heirodules gangstalking him
kek
I too would like answers

[Anonymous No.20865032]

>>20864753
My smoothbrain interpretation is that he was simply a genius scientist to the point where the heirodules took an interest in him and gave him alien HGH to extend his lifespan, maybe they thought his science could be a stepping stone to humanity's evolution if Sev botched his destiny, not sure how that'd be possible though. He did break Terminus Est and could have killed Sev but the villagers were mobbing him by that point and he probably would have died if he didn't bail.

[Anonymous No.20865135]

>>20851448
>Is this worth reading OR is it just a /lit/ meme
It is both worth reading AND a /lit/ meme. I haven't read a more overrated book but it still has plenty of redeeming qualities and stands out from most sword and planet stories.

[Anonymous No.20865195]

>>20864753
[Spoiler]There is textual evidence that he would have been Autarch if Severian wasn't able to. The Autarchy implies taking the New Sun judgement in Yesod.
The question of predestination is up to readers interpretation I think, though in my first read it did seem that Severian didnt as much agency in the overarching events as it seems[/spoiler]

[Anonymous No.20865200]

>>20865195
fucking spoiler tag

[Anonymous No.20865360]

>>20864753
His plan was to save humanity from the dying sun using genetic engineering. Which would've meant them losing their humanity.
Lake Diuturna is a good secluded spot for him to do what he wants without oversight, the village was in his way. Maybe there was something about the lake he needed, I don't know - he does use it to escape after altering himself so he can live underwater.
He went to Valeria to warn her the flood was imminent, I think. Not sure about fleeing at the end of book 3 either, maybe his work had been ruined. The tribespeople had gotten in.

[Anonymous No.20865849]

>>20863138
>>rapes Pia
Ahh, didn't know I was talking to an actually mentally challenged person. Thanks for clearing that up. I hope you let your caretaker know what kind of boards you frequent so they can make sure people don't make fun of you too much.
All the best, retardbro

[Anonymous No.20865857]

>>20864753
He was just an absolute unit with a big brain to match

[Anonymous No.20866047]

>>20865857

[Anonymous No.20866194]

>>20866047
underrated

[Anonymous No.20866937]

>>20852219
What's the deal with making that face anyway? Why suddenly a bunch of redditors started doing it?

[Anonymous No.20867540]

>>20866937
I believe it is to virtuing that I, as a male, am both a silly goof ball who doesn't take himself or his appearance seriously, and am easy going so do not hurt me psychically as well as emotionally.
In the animal kingdom it would be the wolf who is defeated that will lay on its back with its arms stretched out to show compliance and can have its throat ripped out if the alpha wishes.

[Anonymous No.20868172]

>>20867540
So I can rape and beat soiboys and they will just take it?

[Anonymous No.20868274]

Just finished reading the first half of Urth, I'm very confused

>Severian jumping everywhere and almost killing himself multiple times for no reason
>Severian understanding something but then realizing he didn't understand

[Anonymous No.20868446]

>>20868274
>almost killing himself
He doesn’t know

[Anonymous No.20868452]

>>20868274
Sev fooling around with the low gravity was kino, he's still such a dork after everything he's been through.
Strap in for some real "HP Lovecraft presents Evangelion" shit in the back half though.

[Anonymous No.20868548]

>>20859030
I've heard this opinion repeated a thousand times but my experience was the complete opposite. Neither was as good as BOTNS but I liked Long Sun slightly more, although both books are so closely tied together that they might as well be the same story. Anyone who claims that Wolfe meant for Severian to be a villain clearly hasn't read them.

[Anonymous No.20868559]

>>20868172
yes

[Anonymous No.20868967]

>>20868274
Keep reading anon, I think you're going to be satisfied.

[Anonymous No.20868982]

>>20860368
no

[Anonymous No.20869628]

>>20850394
I don't give a fuck what anyone says, I like Severian. He's at the very least not worse than anyone else on his world, and is arguably kinder than most.

[Anonymous No.20869847]

>>20850394
Typhon was so fucking based.

[Anonymous No.20869936]

>>20851832
This

>>20854372
If anyone reads that chapter and interprets what happens as rape you can immediately disregard their opinion on the entire series and really everything else they have to say about anything.

[Anonymous No.20869975]

>>20868274
Oh no nigger, he’s definitely dead. He dies many times

[Anonymous No.20869983]

>>20868548
If you thought long sun was better I can immediately tell you’re the type of person who enjoys slice of life anime. This has been the case with 100% of the people who have told me they enjoyed it more

[Anonymous No.20869992]

My favorite part of Book of the New Sun is when Noah starts openly masturbating in front of Jesus

[Anonymous No.20870127]

>>20851670
ive left some Uncle Ted in LFLs here

t. albuquerque

[Anonymous No.20870172]

>>20868446
>>20868452
>>20868967
>>20869975

I think I got filtered.
Does he resurect Apu-Punchau at the end ? Seems like an asshole thing to do to himself.
What was the purpose of little Severian ?

[Anonymous No.20870677]

>>20870172
why would you ask when you havn't finished it? You have to read it all through twice before that

[Anonymous No.20870867]

>>20860480
those scenes also show up AFTER the events of Claw, after several other events where we can see him dealing with internal turmoil and changing opinions and actions that he wouldn't have had/done if not for the alzabo.

wolfe was nothing if not intentional with his writing.

[Anonymous No.20871893]

>>20869847
Read Long Sun. There's much more to him.
>>20869983
Come on, as if you didn't think Les Miserables in space age Mediterranean city state was peak comfy.

[Anonymous No.20872245]

[Anonymous No.20872252]

>>20872245
great pic anon, very cool

[Anonymous No.20872266]

>>20858238
>>20858238
is it safe to listen to rereading wolfe while reading the books for the first time?

[Anonymous No.20872568]

>redditors think there are multiple Severian when it's explicitely stated reality is being changed around him and cause consequence doesn't apply

[Anonymous No.20872981]

>>20860480
Best I could find.

[Anonymous No.20873001]

>>20872245
What's the meaning of sunflowers?
>>20872568
Didn't Severian himself come to conclusion there were many Severians before him?

[Anonymous No.20873098]

Is the author really Catholic? This books theology seems retarded

>there’s spooky angels that can time travel and shape the future
>there’s also bad evil Gods with supernatural powers that also can control stuff on Earth
>the universe is full of bad God-like things and good godlike things and some that have godlike powers that don’t care
>there’s no overarching God

wtf is this

[Anonymous No.20873150]

>>20873001
the weird flower that kills i forgot its name

[Anonymous No.20873160]

>>20873098
It's all according to the Pancreator.

[Anonymous No.20873224]

>>20873150
Ah, the Avern

[Anonymous No.20873501]

>>20873098
Capital-G God is still present in the universe. The idea of God being so infinite that even the Lovecraftian shit like the Heirogrammates and “divine years” not being as big as it gets aligns well with Catholic mysticism, which focuses a lot on just how incomprehensible the nature of God can ultimately be.
Long Sun has a lot of explicit riffs on Catholic ritual, even though there’s pagan stuff mixed in. The Outsider is pretty obviously God, which is the reason he ends up being the important one even though the Nine have turned themselves into false gods via technology. It makes the conflict more interesting since they can actually perform miracles and possessions.

[Anonymous No.20873650]

>>20873098
Just because something is powerful doesn’t make it a God. Just because some people call something „God“ doesn’t make it one. There is only one God and he is named the Increate in BotNS. And Severian confirms this several times throughout the series and especially at the end of Urth. The Hierodules and Tzadkiel are mere servants of God. Abaia and Erebos are not servants but simply very powerful alien creatures, creatures just like humans or the Alzabo. The journey of Severian is one that ultimately leads him to arrive at the absolute truth of Monotheism.

[Anonymous No.20873716]

>>20873501
The gods of the Whorl ultimately end up doing the work of the true God, especially Pas because he assumed the position of the central father. The Outsider's enlightenment is just a mental imprint in the clone of Pas to get off his ass and start fixing the ship, but it's also a real revelation from the real God. Wolfe handles this sort of thing that lesser religions are stepping stones to monotheism in other stories, like in The Soldier of Mist.

[Anonymous No.20873821]

>>20872266
no you need to read the books blind at least once.

[Anonymous No.20874083]

>>20873098
What do you think the Increate is if not God? But yeah it's the classic white 'monotheistic' man injecting all kinds of polytheistic elements and themes into his stories because that's what's in his blood deep down.

[Anonymous No.20874166]

>>20873716
>The Soldier of Mist.
Would you recommend this one? The amnesia gimmick seems like it would be incredibly frustrating, and I don't know enough about ancient history to piece things together by catching references.

[Anonymous No.20874541]

>>20850394
Severian is unreliable because although he personally has an eidetic memory, he is telling us Severian's personal story after-the-fact the mystery of his journey has, to him, been resolved. Severian has the memory of not just himself, but of all the Autarchs, and yet here he is trying to write his summer memoir in such a way as to be impossible to comprehend, as though he's still just teenage Severian. I postulate this is done because, much like Mohammad is the Seal of the Prophets for Islam, Severian is trying to create a narrative in which he is the 'Seal of the Autarchs,' or that his rise and success is truly divinely ordained- above the technological prowess of the larger alien forces at play, there is an even grander force which assists in humanity's spiritual and moral rebirth- and that is God, acting through Severian. This is why Wolfe says Severian is Christ-like, but not Christ. To be Christian before the 4th century was to be literally 'like Christ' - an emulator of Jesus' life and teachings, and in this way Severian is like Saul, who becomes Paul- in which his 'blindness' is his linear temporal existence as a torturer and when he can 'see' is when he has imbibed all of the previous struggles of all previous Autarchs- the sinful autocrats and the helpful heirs alike. This synthesis, and still choosing to redeem rather than destroy humanity, is smoothed over by Severian's ego through the suppression of certain grievous sins and the attribution of divine circumstance to his own quick thinking. It's interesting that in Urth of the New Sun Severian pretty much contradicts, time and time again, the idea that the Severian in BOTNS is inherently clever and quick. He more or less admits in Urth that he was flying by the seat of his pants and couldn't even comprehend the help he was getting, which in itself contradicts all the lifetimes of knowledge he would have received as Autarch. Severian the narrator wants his perfect divine ascension journey AND he wants all the credit for the journey, too- and that's where he's unreliable.

[Anonymous No.20874600]

>>20874166
Not him but it’s really good and one of Wolfe‘s best. You don’t have to worry much about historical references because it is enjoyable even without catching those. Though if you want to understand the books better you can read The Histories by Herodotus which Latro in the Mist is based on.

[Anonymous No.20874694]

>>20874166
Of course. Whereas Severian is in the far-flung future and remembers "everything", Latro is in the ancient past and forgets daily. It is Wolfe Showing off once again his skill. There are few like him.

[Anonymous No.20874785]

>>20874166
The amnesia contrivance is handled expertly enough to not become a gimmick but lends actual gravitas to events and chapters. It's really, really good.

[Anonymous No.20874842]

Since the books probably takes place in Argentina, is everyone Argentinian?, Are the Ascians north-american?

[Anonymous No.20874903]

>>20874842
Chile more likely, since the sea is directly to the west of Nessus. Also Severian travels north/northeast to Lake Diaturna which is most likely Lake Titicaca. Those natives that lived on manmade reed islands on Diaturna are a real people native to Titicaca called the Uru

[Anonymous No.20874984]

>>20874842
Geographically they are but this is so many billions of years in the future I don’t think it would be right to label them as such

[Anonymous No.20874988]

>want to read long sun
>the ebook is a shit scan and has many errors

Also what do you think of my "Severian in the corridor of time" AI prompt

[Anonymous No.20875000]

>>20874842
Seemed to me like the common people of Nessus are South American. It's especially evident with the autochthons and such. So the people of Viron are mostly South American as well since they represent the standard demographic of Nessus. Or so I think.

[Anonymous No.20875048]

>>20874842
The first autarch was Hitler

[Anonymous No.20875142]

>>20874842
Lexicon Urthus places BotNS in Chile, which makes sense since Apu Punchau is an Incan deity. Incas settled only westernmost parts of Argentina, so it makes it less likely the story is set there.
>>20875000
Could be, I always imagined them to be more European Spanish, since the Spanish were also fighting Nafris and Turks. I wouldn't be surprised they were artificially simulating old Earth cultures jus for gods' amusement.
>>20875048
Incorrect. The first autarch was Ymar the Almost Just, previously known as Reechy.

[Anonymous No.20875229]

>>20858269
Agia is CUTE

[Anonymous No.20875250]

>>20875000
>So the people of Viron are mostly South American as well since they represent the standard demographic of Nessus. Or so I think.
I don't think so, Wolfe is usually more meticulous with his naming conventions. Vironese names are pretty clearly English compared to other cultures from the Whorl. It's pretty explicit that Duko Rigoglio was native to Nessus, so I would expect all of the other people from Blanko would be descended from Nessus too.

>>20875142
>I wouldn't be surprised they were artificially simulating old Earth cultures jus for gods' amusement.
It's not that they were simulating old Earth cultures, they were literally preserving them. Not only is the Whorl an ark for all of the plants and animals of Earth, it's an ark for all of the cultures of man as well.

[Anonymous No.20875275]

>>20862796
When I rred it I was mad at Sev for cheating on Dorcas, it didn't even occur to me that it was rapelike.

[Anonymous No.20875279]

>>20875250
>It's not that they were simulating old Earth cultures, they were literally preserving them.
But they were launched only around the time when shit hit the fan during the closing years of the Monarchy. How much of semi-modern-day culture remains about 100k years in the future? When we visit the Monarchy in BotNS, it doesn't seem alien in comparison to the Autarchy, while Whorl has nothing similar to the pessimistic post-post apocalyptic surroundings of Nessus.
>>20874988
It's beautiful, Anon. I also like generating Solar Cycle art.

[Anonymous No.20875283]

>>20875250
Regoglio wasn't from Blanko though, his name was Roger and he was one of the special backup embryos.
But I could be wrong about Viron. You bring up a good point about the names. Maybe none of the communities are Nessians specifically, but I thought Viron had a Hispanic flavour.

[Anonymous No.20875305]

>>20875283
It could somewhat pass as an old Spanish colony in Hispaniola or a Jesuit mission in Paraguay.

[Anonymous No.20875316]

>>20875279
>How much of semi-modern-day culture remains about 100k years in the future?
The Torturer's Guild was still practicing the Feast of Saint Catherine. Every person in Nessus was named after a Catholic saint.

[Anonymous No.20875327]

>>20875279
>But they were launched only around the time when shit hit the fan during the closing years of the Monarchy. How much of semi-modern-day culture remains about 100k years in the future?
Evidently enough to group colonies on the whorl by nationality/ethnicity. In the Short Sun we have Italian, Indian, German or Dutch.
I suspect that Typhon would have been using preserved genetic material from the past, because we get no indication of the state of earth beyond the locality of Nessus and it would be a logistical near impossibility for him to go across the ocean and collect representatives of various ethnicities.
I thought Typhon was the character in the story told by Cyriaca, so if he had a vast storehouse of artifacts from Urth's past it would be reasonable to think he had DNA. We know for a fact he had inconceivably vast resources and that genetic engineering to the degree of creating chimeras is prominent.

[Anonymous No.20875331]

>>20875316
That’s just Gene translating from the language that doesn’t exist yet

[Anonymous No.20875350]

>>20874842
>is everyone Argentinian
Well, Severian is said to be extremely white.

[Anonymous No.20875363]

>>20875327
>a logistical near impossibility
Actually I take that back. He could have had people flying around the globe and abducting specimens like UFOs. I just find it less likely because my impression of Urth is that there's a lot of conflict and strife, and who knows what the fuck is happening on Eurasia and Africa. Old races could have been long extinguished.

[Anonymous No.20875370]

>>20875316
But they had no idea that Licinius was a Roman Emperor, they thought he was an Autarch. I accept the connection that they were named after Catholic saints, but the Vironese didn't follow any modern naming convention. They have names such as Puss, Pondweed and Smegma.
>>20875327
>...we get no indication of the state of earth beyond the locality of Nessus and it would be a logistical near impossibility for him to go across the ocean and collect representatives of various ethnicities.
Good point. I'm not sure if it's set in stone, but Earth was depopulated during the expansion into space, so the robots had to resettle it. I doubt they could return people to the places they originated. Who knows how powerful Typhon was since he was Monarch on many worlds, but he wasted vast resources trying to turn Earth into capital of his realm, since Earth doesn't have any valuable metals. Still, I have no ideas who the people inside the tanks in the Vironese tunnels are. They don't seem to be exultants or armigers like Valeria imagines. They seem to be ordinary humans, maybe gholas of historical people.

[Anonymous No.20875386]

>>20875370
>but the Vironese didn't follow any modern naming convention.
They're names in English. And they're the only culture in the Whorl who has names in English. Every other culture is very clearly Arabic, Hindi, Italian or what have you. If their names were just being translated into English, wouldn't every other name in Long Sun be translated into English as well?

[Anonymous No.20875391]

>>20875386
They're in English because Horn understood their meaning well, not because they were Anglos.

[Anonymous No.20875404]

>>20875391
Damn, good point. I was going to ask why he didn't call his concubine by her translated name after he learns it but I remembered he does call her Evensong after that.

[Anonymous No.20875417]

>>20875370
>But they had no idea that Licinius was a Roman Emperor
To be fair I don't think average person today wouldn't know that either.

[Anonymous No.20875427]

>>20875417
Yeah, I guess so. I'm kind of into history of the Tetrarchy and early Christianity, so I immediately noticed the connection between Liciniuses and Saint Catherines.

[Anonymous No.20875484]

Rereading early chapters of the Shadow of the Torturer is incredibly comfy.

[Anonymous No.20875586]

>>20875484

Every time I re-read Citadel I immediately have to re-read everything up to the Botanical gardens all over again.

[Anonymous No.20875718]

>>20875484
Who is Katharine again ?

[Anonymous No.20875735]

>>20875586
For me is Jolenta. She's the Pamela Anderson of the New Sun world.