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/lit/ - Literature

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20844976 No.20844976 [Reply] [Original]

When you're enjoying a classic work of prose or verse, how do you know that you don't think it's good simply because you know that it's considered good? In other words, what are some universal heuristics for good works of literature?

>> No.20845038

>>20844976
It's subjective

>> No.20845045

>what are some objective good qualities of art
Yeah good luck getting an answer to that one.

>> No.20845060

>>20845045
I was actually thinking that myself as I made this thread, but don't you think there are some criteria we use when we judge literature? Of course the criteria themselves can be flexible, because this is art, and not science, but sure some criteria exist?

>> No.20845065

>I can very easily see the image they are conveying in as few words as possible
>rhythm/flow makes reading the words enjoyable and easy and bonus points if the rhythm reinforces the meaning of the words
>reading gives me goosebumps
>the content causes me to reflect after reading
>the piece of literature can be read more than once and new things are found

>> No.20845070

>>20844976
start here
https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-91292-9_3

>> No.20845082

>>20845060
An individual might be able to come up with a list of things that make something objectively good to them but any further than that and things become chaotically difficult.
Something like "it has to be emotionally resonant" might work but that just kicks the can down the road.

>> No.20845093

>>20845070
Thanks, in reading the first couple paragraphs I realized I'm basically asking about the philosophy of art and beauty, or aesthetics. Will this chapter focus mostly on the Germans or will it tell me where to start with aesthetics?

>> No.20845105

>>20845082
Well what about something like Homer? Pretty much universally respected in the ancient world, and I'm sure very few people on /lit/ would say it's bad. So if you or anyone else has read Homer's epics, why do you consider them good? What does he achieve that makes his work impressive? Or use any other example.

>> No.20845155

>>20845038
fpbp

>> No.20845169

>>20845093
It's mostly an exegesis of the tension between idealism and subjectivism/solipsism, and between mere mimesis and the creation of the organically new ( in the Ezra Pound sense https://www.rem.routledge.com/articles/make-it-new ), as it relates to Goethe and Schelling almost exclusively. It touches on some of the most important underpinnings of their aesthetic theory, so like I say, it's just a place to start—the topic is massive.

>> No.20845190

>>20845169
Sounds like a perfect place to start. Do you know of any philosophers who have written about the topic of aesthetics and art though? Something like Aristotle's Poetics

>> No.20845220

>>20844976
I've failed at writing enough to know what the hard parts are and recognize when somebody does them well. I guess if you're just starting, all good art seems effortless, but eventually you'll become discerning.

>> No.20845223

what makes a work of art good is twofold.

one has to do with how it relates to other works of art, including the world. the easiest example is originality, how different it is from other works.

two, has to do with internal workings. every piece of art is a machine. a rube goldberg machine specifically. so the parts have to mesh together and the ball of experience should always be balanced. balance is key. in music this is obvious, every element is balanced, even the balance and imbalance within every element. but in literature, its harder to intuit this since its still ultimately music but a few steps removed.

of course for you to fall in love with a work of art a third thing is required. a mysterious sublime nebulus ephemeral strange wonderful thing that has to do with the alignment of the stars

>> No.20845232

>>20845220
>I've failed at writing enough to know what the hard parts are and recognize when somebody does them well.
My question is more along the lines of, what are you recognizing when you recognize that someone else has done it well? When you recognize the failing of your own art, what is it specifically deficient in? Basically, you have opinions, so what are you basing your opinions on?

>> No.20845921

>>20844976
>how do you know that you don't think it's good simply because you know that it's considered good?
Because I have zero innate respect for the classics. They have to impress me just as much as any contemporary book. I don't care if millions of people think a book is good, if I don't like what I'm reading then the book is shit.

>> No.20846115

>>20844976
If you have good taste, you know it's good. If you don't, the best you can do is chase after consensus. Taste isn't something you can really influence or develop beyond a point. You've either got good taste or you don't. It's a purely tacit knowledge that can't be rationalized or explained, but it's knowledge nonetheless.

>> No.20846220

>>20845921
>Because I have zero innate respect for the classics. They have to impress me just as much as any contemporary book.
this. if i don't like it, it's the fault of the work. don't put shit on a pedestal.

>> No.20846228

>>20844976
If I like it is good and if I don't like it's not good.

>> No.20846234

>>20844976
> famous poem any 6yo could write
Lemme guess, a non-white person wrote that poem.

>> No.20846235

>>20844976
>tfw a 6 year old btfo's you at poetry
why even live

>> No.20846268
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20846268

>>20846234
Retard

>> No.20846785

>>20845921
How do you decide whether you like it or not?

>> No.20846870

>>20844976
I keep asking myself that

>> No.20846874

>>20844976
I tend to think that the book is good if
>i am hooked on knowing what will happen next
>describe thi gs in a beautiful way that touches me
>talks about things and experiences i have never seen anyone else talk about, little thibgs of life that are true

>> No.20846907

>>20846115
Must say I disagree. In fact, if you can't articulate why you like something or why it's good, then you must be the one with poor taste. It's not simply tacit knowledge

>> No.20847336

>>20846234
newfag

>> No.20848146

this poem sucks

>> No.20848455

>>20844976
That's twice this week I've read a kino poem by a child under the age of 10.

>> No.20848503

>>20848455
Was the other one the literary masterpiece that is "Haiku by a Robot"?

>> No.20848512

>>20848503
Yes.

>> No.20848630

>>20844976
How well did the author achieve what they set out to do and was the execution effective towards those ends.

>> No.20848642

>>20845921
This. The only difference in how I approach classics is that I'm more willing to give them a second chance down the line if I don't like them at first.

>> No.20849065

>>20848146
I thought the same thing when I read it for the first time.
It's disturbing how much of an acquired taste it is. Each time I read it I love it more and more.

>> No.20849210

>>20849065
If it said it was written by an acclaimed poet instead of Nael he would be singing the poem's praises

>> No.20849235

>>20844976
It's such a great poem

>> No.20849249

>>20844976
>In other words, what are some universal heuristics for good works of literature?
The ancient greeks started to work out objective criteria for good stories.
>>20845045
>good luck getting an answer
The problem isn't finding answers, the problem is if you give up by the multitude of answers or if you give in to the peabrained "everything's subjective man" brigade.

>> No.20849286

>>20844976
Reminder that LEAVES is far better and more nuanced than this phallic schlock

>> No.20849302

>>20849249
>The ancient greeks started to work out objective criteria for good stories.
Such as? And who?

>> No.20849322

Someone didn’t start with the greeks

>> No.20849400

>>20849302
Homer, Hesiod, Aristophanes, Democritus, Pytagoras, Gorgias, Protagoras.

If only there was some way of finding books that deal with this subject. But alas you're doomed to never know.

>> No.20849753

>>20849400
Homer and Hesiod wrote about the criteria for good literature? Pretty sure that's wrong