There are no meaningful arguments against antinatalism.

[Anonymous No.20815689]

the closest thing is some kind of appeal to subjectivity where the luckiest bunch claim that their limited short lives were worth it so it justifies bringing new, decaying carcasses who will inevitably suffer. there is no way for that person to not look at it any other way than an injustice, and essentially a crime.

[Anonymous No.20815693]

you'll never get to try heroin if you're never born no cap on god frfr

[Anonymous No.20815703]

>>20815693
no cap, that's actually a good point

[Anonymous No.20815716]

>>20815703
That's why when my children reach a certain age, I inject them with a lethal dose of H.
Let them have some fun as kids them send em to the grave in a blaze of bliss.

[Anonymous No.20815762]

>adopt an a priori position that X is meaningless
>THERE ARE NO MEANINGFUL ARGUMENTS TO REFUTE THAT X IS MEANINGLESS

[Anonymous No.20815789]

>>20815762
oh yes never mind, let me go and bring a person into existence that will get cancer and die of a heart attack in their 40s all so they can achieve their life long dream of climbing mount Everest
it all would have been worth it natalist bros...

[sageeee No.20815799]

There is no coherent argument for antinatalism. They all rely on poorly reasoned utilitarian morality or subjective experience.

[Anonymous No.20815814]

>>20815799
yes but your subjective experience doesn't justify bringing someone into existence either. especially if and when they realize that they have been duped and can and should hold it against you.

[Anonymous No.20815830]

>>20815814
Not an argument

[Anonymous No.20815831]

>>20815693
I once edged continuously for 6 hours while on meth and then coomed so hard I literally passed out for a minute. If I get diagnosed with brain cancer tomorrow, life would have been worth it for that singular cosmic blast of cum alone.

[Anonymous No.20815836]

>>20815831
holy based
I've had pretty crazy coom seshs on weed, but that's about it.

[Anonymous No.20815841]

>>20815830
shooting you in minecraft is argument. the same way shooting a rapist is an argument. both have caused damage to the person.

[Anonymous No.20815856]

It shows the futility of philosophical argumentation. Reasons to live are metis - they have poor explanatory power, but they work if you genuinely believe them. Antinatalism, on the other hand, is the Brasilia of philosophical argumentation. Sure, the points logically follow - but they contain a certain shallowness. When looking at them as a whole, they don't FEEL right (at least, not without a certain amount of self-oriented rhetoric). We're never going to be able a talk ourselves into a reason to live - we're going to have to close our eyes and grope for it's truth.

[Anonymous No.20815861]

>>20815689
antinatalism isnt a discussion that should take place on a philosophical level. there is much sophistry that the non antinatalist can use here. hell they could appeal to the phyrronists and they would technically 8e irrefuta8le. 8ut on a mundane human level informed intuition and empathy will lead to antinatalism

>>20815831
8ased lol. 31 means jerking off in turkish too. i take 8ack what i said a8ove

[Anonymous No.20815867]

>>20815856
You just said a bunch of nonsense. but still its not so much whether you your self want to live or not as much as it as about not gambling with someone else's experience.
being a human, having a deadline you have no choice over, can never be truly worth it, the least you can do is not make another one.

[Anonymous No.20815875]

>>20815856
you can do that to keep living but for god sake use reason when it comes to giving birth. dont let your cope lead to someone elses suffering. there are many who suffer from medical reasons because they think modern science is "shallow"

[Anonymous No.20815900]

>>20815867
You haven't understood at all what i'm trying to say.
>>20815875
>use reason when it comes to giving birth
Do you know what Metis is?

[Anonymous No.20815930]

>>20815689
I don't know buddy, you just sound depressed to me. I'm glad my parents birthed me into this world. I don't see why a reasonable, well-adjusted human being would care about antinatalism at all. Don't have kids if you want but don't preach things that are out of your control.

[Anonymous No.20815939]

>>20815856
Nigger

[Anonymous No.20815943]

>>20815930
>I don't see why a reasonable, well-adjusted human being
me neither but its not about that, I enjoy my life too but there are far too many things on this bug planet that are actually worth life for if you think about for a bit.
the fact we have no choice over when we die (not so much the dying it self just not having a choice in it) alone justifies not giving birth.

[Anonymous No.20815950]

>>20815939
whoa buddy chill

[Anonymous No.20815957]

>>20815950
he said the N-igger(Nigger) word and the post is still there tf is wrong with this site.

[Anonymous No.20815961]

>>20815957
I know right? Mods are Ni**ers.

[Anonymous No.20815977]

>>20815961
don't worry I reported that racist nigger kike to the mods. should be gone.

[Anonymous No.20815981]

>>20815943
I can't prove you wrong anon. That's your opinion and I really don't know what to think of this. I fear this sort of debate deals with such fundamentals that it can know no definitive resolution.

[Anonymous No.20815990]

>>20815977
based?

[Anonymous No.20815996]

>>20815831
>What if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness, and say to you, "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence ... Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine."

[Anonymous No.20815999]

>>20815996
Source? Better not be the bibble

[Anonymous No.20816001]

>>20815900
>Do you know what Metis is?
no

[Anonymous No.20816008]

>>20815999
not him, but the universe is cyclical.
you will live this life forever. and countless other lives that are far worse than the worst hell you can imagine and just as equally(tho not in terms of plain/pleasure calculus I would say) an infinite number of heavenly lives.
now anon how do we as wise homosexuals(sapiens) deal with this existential problem?

[Anonymous No.20816013]

>>20816008
Why should I care if there's nothing I can do about it? Why spend a fraction of a second pondering these kinds of existential problems if nothing can be done to stop the cycles?

[Anonymous No.20816018]

>>20815693
I did. A life well lived.

[Anonymous No.20816021]

>>20816013
i dunno lol. I do it for fun personally. imagine someday liberating all the (You)'s from those infinite hells?

[Anonymous No.20816026]

>>20815689
People cannot have moral obligations, so there can be no obligation to have, or to not have children. So the issue is more about one's personal choice in the matter. That being said, I am antinatalist.

Regarding the promotion of antinatalism, the biological drive to reproduce creates an instinctual aversion to the concept for many people, so other methods are necessary. The "pro-choice" ideology is probably the best tool available. It's complete nonsense, of course, but apparently it's quite easy to trick women into getting abortions by the tens of millions. Think of how many lives have been avoided due to this.

[Anonymous No.20816034]

>>20816008
>you will live this life forever. and countless other lives that are far worse than the worst hell you can imagine and just as equally(tho not in terms of plain/pleasure calculus I would say) an infinite number of heavenly lives.
Source?
Sounds unverifiable to me. And anyway, I don't remember before my birth, so if what you're saying was true, either i'm on my first life, or that we don't remember our past lives, making each iteration essentially a separate life, making us back at square one.

[Anonymous No.20816040]

>>20815999
nietzsche

[Anonymous No.20816047]

>>20816034
I mean those separate (You)'s still exist somewhere sometime. just because there is no continuation and assuming my theory is right it doesn't make their experience any less real right? I mean how likely is it that this existence thing is a once in a forever phenomena? intuitively not very likely.

[Anonymous No.20816067]

>>20816026
pro-choice stuff is short term strategy. it saves a ton sure. but a long term plan that is realistic is needed.

[Anonymous No.20816167]

>doesn't believe in meaning
>wants meaningful arguments

[Anonymous No.20816178]

>>20815996
it is what it is

[Anonymous No.20816192]

>>20815689
take your therapeutic nihilism and throw it in the trash. Hippocrates always prevails

[Anonymous No.20816204]

>>20816192
no arguments, expected from a delusional optimist.

[Anonymous No.20816212]

>>20815689
the refutation is to not be a failed hedonist

[Anonymous No.20816231]

>>20816212
why do you accuse antinatalists of being hedonists? hedonists are retards. antinatalists care about the tragic part of life not so much the "pleasure" part just because they want to "reduce suffering" doesn't mean that they're fucking hedonists especially when the misery in the world is fucking unbearable.

[Anonymous No.20816234]

>>20816231
Because your morality (muh pleasure/pain) is hedonistic

[Anonymous No.20816239]

>>20816231
cont
its like saying that a firefighter is a hedonist because saving people from a burning building reduces pain.

[Anonymous No.20816243]

>>20816234
lmao so is the firefighter I suppose

[Anonymous No.20816275]

>>20816231
>>20816212
Every time I hear the arguments of antinatalists, they're conceptualizing pleasure as being the counterbalance to suffering in a ridiculous cost-benefit analysis of whether life is worth living (in which, incidentally, personal experience is not factored in for some reason). So yeah, failed hedonists who couldn't figure out the very basic truth that the real counterbalance to suffering is finding meaning in life.

[Anonymous No.20816289]

>>20816234
>pleasure/pain
pain/pleasure asymmetry is benatar's thing. its not the most intuitive argument for most people.
but even if antinatalists were hedonists at heart, what difference does it make? I don't see how that does anything to derail antinatalism other than to appeal to some faggots who associate hedonism with their imaginary idea of some lazy dude on heroin.
the point still stands that life is bad for most sentient beings. even if you were "pro life" if you had any shred of sanity you wouldn't be pro life via natural selection.

[Anonymous No.20816297]

>>20816239
That's a flawed analogy. Antinatalism is not like a firefighter savig lives, but more like saying no one should ever enter any building because things like fires are inevitable. A firefighter faces a problem at hand, an antinatalist is so afraid of the problem that he wants to prevent it from ever happening, even if it means at the cost of everything else.

[Anonymous No.20816312]

Anti natalism just means that you will not reproduce though others will. Typically the people who continue to reproduce are less than human.

[Anonymous No.20816328]

>>20816312
>Typically the people who continue to reproduce are less than human.
In America the Amish have far more children than anyone else so it will be okay.

[Anonymous No.20816329]

>>20816297
yes but its more like every building inevitably goes on fire at some point and a lot of the times right after its constructed. while the firefighter is doing his best the antinatalist is just pointing out how insane this entire situation is and saying that maybe its a good idea not to enter any building as its extremely unpredictable both in the short term and in the long term.

[Anonymous No.20817444]

>>20816008
Such a major cope that I've been seeing here lately

The universe will end in heat death, that's it

[Anonymous No.20817521]

>>20816231
>the misery in the world is fucking unbearable
>>20816289
>the point still stands that life is bad for most sentient beings

Except these assertions are not true at all. Antinatalism will never have a strong philosophical footing because it ceaselessly relies on such flawed observations about life to assert its tenets. Life being unbearable, based on suffering and an undesirable outcome overall is highly controversial and subject to debate. These peremptory and baseless affirmations do nothing to further your arguments. I could just as easily argue in bad faith that life is endlessly full of wonder, bliss, excitement and opportunity if you have the right mindset. Somehow the truth must lie between the two extremes but it's disingenuous at best to pretend that everything is as simple as "we live in literal hell and we must stop reproducing to ensure no further conscious sentient beings are forced to endure it". It's all much more subtle than that and it pains me to see such a difficult topic being handled so brazenly with complete disregard for nuance and honest intellectual inquiry.

[Anonymous No.20817525]

>>20815689
suffering≠bad

[Anonymous No.20817544]

>>20815789
lmao what a pussy

[Anonymous No.20818186]

>>20817525
When you say this, you only think of aesthetic suffering that suits you. Let us see if you hold the same position after being mangled in a car accident that leaves you paraplegic and in pain for the rest of your life, and if you then believe that the suffering is meaningful or if there were a magical cure to that ailment if it would not be taken immediately.

[Anonymous No.20818595]

>>20815799
> poorly reasoned utilitarian morality or subjective experience.
By that logic everything is subjective.
>break some law
>claim that the law is poorly reasoned utilitarian morality or subjective experience cobbled together by an army of braindead politicians and bureaucrats.

[Anonymous No.20818615]

>>20815856
Grope this *unzips*

[Anonymous No.20818629]

[Anonymous No.20818650]

>>20816192
>Hippocrates always prevails

[Anonymous No.20819053]

Shut up and do some pushups faggot nerds anti natalist more like anti not gayists because you people chug dong bing bong EEEK slam DUNK. Get it anti not gayists it's a double negative I called you a queer did that over goyour head gay boy? EAT MY SHIRNT. DICKHEADS. end

[Anonymous No.20819055]

>>20817521
Many sentient beings are eaten by predators, many sentient beings die because of disease and elemental factors. As for us we suffer abstractly and are still subject to many forms of accidents, diseases, as well as mental afflictions due to a surplus of consciousness as well.

Just because some people feel good sometimes is not in itself a reason to say that life is good. That is not the base qualia to life. It wouldn't make any sense for it to be, when people are happy there is no reason to do anything. Life works through blind processes that have no point of contact other than continuance. Thus it is more advantageous to yield to suffering than to happiness. This is where the claim that the base quality of life is suffering comes from.

[Anonymous No.20819098]

>>20815689
Antinatalists are refuted by their own selves.
If they havent delet themselves, they are full of shit.
If they have, they have died with their dumb philosophy.
Everything else is sophistry for fags.

[Anonymous No.20819108]

>>20819098
Difference between not bringing in new life and destroying life that already exists.

[Anonymous No.20819150]

>>20819098
If that were so you would have refuted it.

[Anonymous No.20819174]

>>20819055
Well then, I could just say that other beings deserve to suffer because I did. In fact I will produce as many new consciousness as possible for them to indure the severity of life as I endured it. And there's nothing you can do to stop me except refuting my actions on a relativistic ethical basis. If I hold suffering to be a good thing, that would be contrary to common logic but there are no philosophical arguments to prove me wrong.

[Anonymous No.20819254]

>>20815689
>nothing bad will happen to people if we have no people
>nothing good will happen to them either
Life is. That's it. We live, we meet our base urges, may shit out a kid. Whether or not that kid may find value in their existence will in part be upon its parents, but ultimately be up to them. It's experiential and subjective.
There's a greater hazard in placing conditions on what makes life valuable than there is in applying a tautology of life being good because life is good. That opens the logical door to devaluation and dehumanization of the lives of others if they fail to meet any arbitrarily chosen condition of what makes life good.
So life may have no intrinsic value or purpose, but it is self justifying as a good thing. Finding meaning or purpose is an individual struggle of life. Denying that to another being is a greater misdeed than them not being able to find it.
>>20815943
>muh agency in death
You have agency to live until then. If anything, the futility of life is what gives it meaning and purpose. It highlights the time you're wasting here when you could be finding what makes it matter to you. A good parent makes it their mission to help their child find what matters to them while helping them to be able to overcome struggles
>>20819108
>Difference between not bringing in new life and destroying life that already exists.
Hardly. If you claim to be able to objectively state conditions of suffering that invalidate worth in living life, you can make the objective case for why a life should end on those same conditions. If that life should end anyway, why shouldn't it be abused? They're not truly living anyway. They're suffering. End it for them, anon.

[Anonymous No.20819260]

If one has no interest in raising children that’s acceptable, but to moralize not procreating is inane

[Anonymous No.20819443]

>>20819108
Yeah like i said, sophistry for fags. If life is suffering, then end it instead of whining.

I mean, really? A guy who is physically incapable of pleasure tells you that life has more suffering than pleasure, and you just run with it? Are you dumb?

[Anonymous No.20819524]

>>20819260
I couldn't care less about morality. I just see continuing the human species stupid. Especially when we are aware of our position in this world

[Anonymous No.20819530]

>>20819254
The bad outweighs the good

[Anonymous No.20819544]

>>20816297
You can never "solve" life.

[Anonymous No.20819552]

>>20819174
>Well then, I could just say that other beings deserve to suffer because I did.
Then you're a retard, but we already knew that.
> If I hold suffering to be a good thing, that would be contrary to common logic but there are no philosophical arguments to prove me wrong.
You do not hold suffering to be a good thing, and I guarantee that you don't. If you are in good health right now, I beseech you to have painful anal sex and contract monkeypox so that you can suffer and find it to be a good thing.

>Hardly. If you claim to be able to objectively state conditions of suffering that invalidate worth in living life, you can make the objective case for why a life should end on those same conditions. If that life should end anyway, why shouldn't it be abused? They're not truly living anyway. They're suffering. End it for them, anon.
What are you even arguing for here? You're the one who is arguing suffering is a good. So naturally it is you, to be true to that belief, to create as much suffering as possible. The pessimistic antinatalist position is to avoid suffering, and the greatest avoidance of suffering is to not bring any more consciousnesses into the world.

>>20819443
Not at all dear retard. Suffering nor pleasure are inherent goods. This same retarded logic is refuted that anyone who says that they hold suffering to be a good should immediately seek to contract a horrible virus, or get into a car accident that leaves them paralyzed in pain. The only way that you can hold that life is a good despite suffering is affording a positive quality to suffering, and most sufferings do not have positive qualities. So pessimists will be obligated to terminate their existences when an optimist is obligated to contract AIDS.

[Anonymous No.20819652]

>>20819544
I didn't say "solve", I said "face".

[Anonymous No.20819672]

>>20815689
There can only be values with life. How can you claim injustice against what you call undead corpses? And if you were serious about life as unending suffering, why haven't you killed yourself yet? Some part of you knows that the suffering you feel is not supposed to be the norm. People have this misconception that being born guarantees the human experience. This is not true. To be human is to build a life. Just as a hunter-gatherer thousands of years ago saw reason to carry on in a world implicitly hostile to him, so too must you. You must find values that support you, you must find people and things who embody these values. I remember living without purpose, and I agree that nobody should be born if that is all there is to life. But I found how far the human mind could take you in the world, and I devoted my life to it. And I tell you this because it is possible, that the human mind is not defaulted to pain. Pursue your happiness, anon.

[Anonymous No.20819711]

Pessimism is the Perennial Truth

Wisdom Of Silenus:
>"You, most blessed and happiest among humans, may well consider those blessed and happiest who have departed this life before you, and thus you may consider it unlawful, indeed blasphemous, to speak anything ill or false of them, since they now have been transformed into a better and more refined nature. This thought is indeed so old that the one who first uttered it is no longer known; it has been passed down to us from eternity, and hence doubtless it is true. Moreover, you know what is so often said and passes for a trite expression. What is that, he asked? He answered: It is best not to be born at all; and next to that, it is better to die than to live; and this is confirmed even by divine testimony. Pertinently to this they say that Midas, after hunting, asked his captive Silenus somewhat urgently, what was the most desirable thing among humankind. At first he could offer no response, and was obstinately silent. At length, when Midas would not stop plaguing him, he erupted with these words, though very unwillingly: 'you, seed of an evil genius and precarious offspring of hard fortune, whose life is but for a day, why do you compel me to tell you those things of which it is better you should remain ignorant? For he lives with the least worry who knows not his misfortune; but for humans, the best for them is not to be born at all, not to partake of nature's excellence; not to be is best, for both sexes. This should be our choice, if choice we have; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can.' It is plain therefore, that he declared the condition of the dead to be better than that of the living."

Ecclesiastes 4:1
>Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed-- and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors-- and they have no comforter.

Ecclesiastes 4:2
>And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive.

Ecclesiastes 4:3
>But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.


XI - CONCLUSION, THE DIALOGUE OF PESSIMISM, MESOPOTAMIAN WISDOM

>What then is good? To have my neck and yours broken, Or to be thrown into the river, is that good?

>Who is so tall as to ascend to heaven? Who is so broad as to encompass the entire world?

First Two Noble Truth of Buddhism:
>dukkha (suffering, incapable of satisfying, painful) is an innate characteristic of existence in the realm of samsara;
>samudaya (origin, arising) of this dukkha, which arises or "comes together" with taṇhā ("craving, desire or attachment")

[Anonymous No.20819733]

The simple black pill of it all is that this isn't a philosophical issue. It's almost entirely a biological issue.
The average healthy living creature can never overcome its biological imperative to survive and reproduce. No amount of words or reason or logic can change this simple fact. As a result antinatalism can never be made compatible with such a being. So antinatalism is destined to be a fringe belief and can only ever be held seriously by those who have truly broken from the norm in some way.

[Anonymous No.20819744]

>>20815689
Here's my counter argument: you are a massive fag

[Anonymous No.20819816]

>>20815689
whats the comic?

[Anonymous No.20819825]

>>20815689
Here's the best argument against antinatalism.

You first.

[Anonymous No.20819834]

>>20815689
Well I don't find it a meaningful contention.

[Anonymous No.20820040]

>>20819733
>The average healthy living creature can never overcome its biological imperative to survive and reproduce.
Oh they can, just not voluntarily.

[Anonymous No.20820476]

>>20819552
>What are you even arguing for here?
Poor reading skills. You're the one who is arguing suffering is a good. So naturally it is you, to be true to that belief, to create as much suffering as possible. The pessimistic antinatalist position is to avoid suffering, and the greatest avoidance of suffering is to not bring any more consciousnesses into the world.
I'm saying that if suffering is enough threshold to avoid existence, it validates death or abuse since a good life is impossible anyway. By framing suffering as an end all, be all of life being not worth living, it begets more suffering as it invalidates any intrinsic value to life.
The jews already lived in ghettoes, Hitler did them a favor by killing them all off. Blacks would have auffered anyway, why not enslave them? The lives of the poor are constant struggle, why shouldn't they be taken advantage of? A retard in a home has almost no reason to continue, why shouldn't the orderlies rape them anyway? Quantitatively increasing suffering poses no moral quandry as any suffering that can be seen as inevitable meets your standard of life being pointless