/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20809321]

>Christianity is an oppressive bourgeois opiate of the masses that perpetuates their control

>Christianity is a tool of the slaves to smother and control the will of the great

well, which is accurate?

[Anonymous No.20809334]

both are correct
just like how antifa/blm niggers are useful idiots to divide and conquer any form of ethnic solidarity against liberal capitalism

[Anonymous No.20809341]

They're both wrong.

[Anonymous No.20809351]

Marx was catastrophically wrong about the origins of Christianity being a power elite psyop or something which is the implication of his words.
Nietzsche was wrong to only identify the great with pagan heroes and warlords. "Greatness" can exist under Christianity as stuff like "magnanimity" or "productivity".
Yes they're both wrong! Ha! Ha! I have nothing constructive to add! That's your problem!

[Anonymous No.20809352]

They’re both sad little chuds pissing all over their balls

[Anonymous No.20809355]

These are not mutually exclusive descriptions. Neet also describes Christianity as an anesthetic.

[Anonymous No.20809374]

>>20809351
>the origins of Christianity being a power elite psyop or something
where does he say this

[Anonymous No.20809412]

>>20809374
It’s the clearly the implication of saying “it’s an opiate of the masses”. Do you think the drugs in being give to everyone in Brave New World was just an organically developed social custom?

[Anonymous No.20809428]

>>20809412
that does not imply the origins of christianity, what the fuck are you on? i can use a screwdriver to stab people in the eye, that doesn't mean screwdrivers were created to stab people in the eye

[Anonymous No.20809448]

>>20809374
The idea that Christianity originated from sinister cynical scheming Capitalists "using Christianity" to maintain their dominance over the proletariat is what Marxists and socialists usually believe. Maybe Marx himself was just saying religion wouldn't help the proles affect change to the property structure (but then again in a theistic worldview the property structure and economic equality have no ultimate meaning or importance). Christianity originated from a weird bunch, poors, immigrants, children, aristocratic women, urban basedlords. Not capitalist boogeymen

[Anonymous No.20809452]

>>20809448
maybe the marxist boogeymen in your believes that

[Anonymous No.20809460]

>>20809448
maybe the Marxist boogeyman in your head believes that

[Anonymous No.20809489]

>>20809460
I have had Marxoid sneerers tell me "religion is a tool" and shit a bazillion times, that's not a boogeyman. To be fair I'm sure Marx was probably far more intelligent than his proselytizers, so it's all water under the bridge

[Anonymous No.20809495]

>>20809489
You started out talking about what Marx believed. Now you're just moving the goalposts.

[Anonymous No.20809549]

>>20809321
>Christianity is an oppressive bourgeois opiate of the masses that perpetuates their control
The most viscious rebellions have been from Protestants. This is obv wrong.
>Christianity is a tool of the slaves to smother and control the will of the great
>will
Yes. Obviously. Your will, if not in the service of the ethical, is basically just a stomach with seed needing a host to feast on to form into a substance Christians call a baby and heathens call an ego-trip onto whom they can project their hopes and give some cliched and humiliating name.

[Anonymous No.20809575]

>>20809489
marxists don't make arguments about the origin of religions, unless they're particularly casuistic. they always talk about the place and function of religion in a given superstructure

[Anonymous No.20809621]

>>20809321
Honestly, I just think that people were just extremely superstitious back then and genuinely believed in the magical shit the bible preached. It had nothing to do with poor or rich trying to control each other or something. It had everything to do with people (whether rich or poor) in the past being extremely superstitious and wanting to believe what the bible offered (eternal heaven). The fact that Christianity has certain features that may be interpreted as being a tool of the slaves or the bourgeois is incidental.

[Anonymous No.20809651]

>>20809549
> The most viscious rebellions have been from Protestants

Have you even heard of the French revolutionaries?

> François-Noël Babeuf (French: [fʁɑ̃swa nɔɛl babœf]; 23 November 1760 – 27 May 1797), also known as Gracchus Babeuf,[3] was a French proto-socialist, revolutionary and journalist of the French Revolutionary period. His newspaper Le tribun du peuple (The Tribune of the People) was best known for its advocacy for the poor and calling for a popular revolt against the Directory, the government of France. He was a leading advocate for democracy and the abolition of private property.

> The nickname "Gracchus" likened him to the Gracchi brothers, who served as tribunes of the people in ancient Rome. Although the terms anarchist and communist did not exist in Babeuf's lifetime, they have both been used by later scholars to describe his ideas. Communism was first used in English by Goodwyn Barmby in a conversation with those he described as the "disciples of Babeuf".[4] He has been called "The First Revolutionary Communist."[5]

[Anonymous No.20809686]

>>20809321
>well, which is accurate?
Both and neither.

[Anonymous No.20809688]

>>20809448
>The idea that Christianity originated from sinister cynical scheming Capitalists
Nobody said this.
I'm not confident that the rest of this post is worth reading, or that you read anything at all.

[Anonymous No.20810183]

The first one is right. And it should be like that. Religion can be an useful tool for the higher men if they use it in the appropriate manner for this end.
>§61, Beyond Good and Evil
>And finally, to ordinary men, to the majority of the people, who exist for service and general utility, and are only so far entitled to exist, religion gives invaluable contentedness with their lot and condition, peace of heart, ennoblement of obedience, additional social happiness and sympathy, with something of transfiguration and embellishment, something of justification of all the commonplaceness, all the meanness, all the semi-animal poverty of their souls. Religion, together with the religious significance of life, sheds sunshine over such perpetually harassed men, and makes even their own aspect endurable to them, it operates upon them as the Epicurean philosophy usually operates upon sufferers of a higher order, in a refreshing and refining manner, almost TURNING suffering TO ACCOUNT, and in the end even hallowing and vindicating it. There is perhaps nothing so admirable in Christianity and Buddhism as their art of teaching even the lowest to elevate themselves by piety to a seemingly higher order of things, and thereby to retain their satisfaction with the actual world in which they find it difficult enough to live—this very difficulty being necessary.

[Anonymous No.20810201]

>>20809351
>>20809412
>>20809448
>Marx was catastrophically wrong about the origins of Christianity being a power elite psyop or something
Marx never stated that. His point is that Christianity, as with other major religions, stuck because they served well to create a stable and efficient (at the time) social structure - they were not "deliberately picked" by the Evil Capitalist elites for that quality, but prospered through natural selection. It's just that "stable and efficient social structure" means "plebs work hard and don't complain about it" for most of the human history.

[Anonymous No.20810232]

>>20809321
>Nietzsche
REFUTED BY GIRARD

[Anonymous No.20810267]

>Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people

[Anonymous No.20810341]

>>20809321
Nietzsche is right because he argued Christians were no different socialists. Christianity has a lot of versus in it that justify the poor existence over the rich. Socialism is using the government to enforce that. You have to understand - Marx was a genuine bum that did drugs, abused his kids, and didn't work a day in his life. He was petite-bourgeois and lived off his parents like modern Marxists do.

[Anonymous No.20811413]

>>20810232
What did he refute?

[Anonymous No.20811423]

>>20809321
Neither.

[Anonymous No.20811445]

they are both right in the sense that it is a cope for poor people that prevents them from rising against their masters.

[Anonymous No.20811452]

>>20809351
>Marx was catastrophically wrong about the origins of Christianity being a power elite psyop or something which is the implication of his words.
Actually what he's implying is that Christianity sticks around because it's a good refuge for the miserable. When he says opiate he means in a medical sense.

[Anonymous No.20811486]

>>20809321
>well, which is accurate?
None of those two are accurate.

[Anonymous No.20811526]

>>20809448
What? How can christianity be originated by capitalist if capitalism started more than a thousend years later. No one says that.
The opium of the masses isnt christianity. Its all religion. But that doesnt mean that its origin is a bourgeois weapon. He describes what porpose it serves. Again, all religion not christianity and that doesnt have to do with the origin of the religion.

[Anonymous No.20811567]

>>20809321
>humans are evil
>humans are good
>which is accurate?
Both. Descriptions usually describe part of a thing not the entirety of it completely contained in language.

[Anonymous No.20811570]

Christianity is both of those things and the greatest invention in history that serves all humans.

[Anonymous No.20811967]

>>20809321
>>Christianity is an oppressive bourgeois opiate of the masses that perpetuates their control
Marx is right from an economic perspective.

>>Christianity is a tool of the slaves to smother and control the will of the great
Nietzsche is right from a psychological perspective.

[Anonymous No.20812020]

>>20811967
You're wrong about everything though. Horseshit is the only thing your methods will reliably produce.

[Anonymous No.20812024]

>>20809321
>>Christianity is a tool of the slaves to smother and control the will of the great
"By now you will have guessed what, according to my ideas, the healing artistic instinct for life at least has attempted with the ascetic priest and why he had to use a temporary tyranny of such paradoxical and illogical ideas, like “guilt,” “sins,” “sinfulness,” “degeneration,” and “damnation”: to make sick people to a certain extent harmless, to enable the incurable to destroy themselves by their own actions, to redirect the ressentiment of the mildly ill sternly back onto themselves "

Initially designed by the great to subdue the slaves. Got out of hand and infected the great themselves.
Slaves don't matter shit and never ever mattered.

[Anonymous No.20812066]

>>20812024
^This

[Anonymous No.20812084]

>>20811967
you hurt my feelings. will you at least say you're sorry?

[Anonymous No.20812247]

>>20809351
>>20809374
>>20809412
>>20809428
>>20809448
>>20809460
>>20809489
etc

Read Feuerbach "Essence of Religion", really a nice book

...the problem is I have yet to find a full version online

some points:
Men used to worship Nature, because Man is a product of Nature, and Nature gives us everything "God" is supposed to give us (=life)
Somehow, at some time, people diverged all Nature attributes onto something that is OUTSIDE Nature, =God
This makes man alienated
etc

[Anonymous No.20812611]

>>20810201
This. People who understand religion the is opium of the masses as a direct attack against the new testament, or Jesus Christ, haven't read Marx, except some quotes of him.
The Church, in Marx and Engels mind was always the institutional church, which participated to submit the proletariat by saying him to be calm and work their wage without protesting.
Reminder that Engels wrote, by the end of his life, "on the history of early christianity", were he had a positive view of the early christians, who were martyrs.

[Anonymous No.20812702]

>>20812024
>Slaves don't matter shit and never ever mattered.
>>20812066
Learn Slave-Master dialectic

[Anonymous No.20812710]

>>20812611
>Engels wrote, by the end of his life, "on the history of early christianity"
Really? Didn't know this
>early christians, who were martyrs.
...except this never happened

[Anonymous No.20814045]

bump

[Anonymous No.20814089]

>>20809321
They're both modernist fools. Europe will fail. Modernity will fail.

Long after no one remembers, their names, Christ's will remain. Praise God.

[Anonymous No.20814153]

>>20814089
jewsus wasn't even european, why does it matter

[Anonymous No.20814176]

>>20814153
Because it's decadent Europeans declaring Christianity to be dead, etc., but it's Europe that will be dead while Christianity lives on.

Marx, Nietzsche, who cares? Decadent, modern Europeans. Their continent will die in atheism while Christ and his church live on.

[Anonymous No.20814898]

>>20809412
>Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

you're so much stupider than you could ever imagine

[Sage No.20814930]

>>20814176
Lives where? Maybe in africa but just a distorted view of it. I doubt their intelects will make them understand the trinity

[Anonymous No.20814936]

>>20809341
book?

[Anonymous No.20814974]

>>20809321
The bourgeois are slaves elevated to riches. The proletariat are just slaves too dumb to take advantage of the overthrowing of the traditional order. They're both still slavish at heart.

[Anonymous No.20815012]

>>20814974
Slaves to material accumulation, that's for sure. This shit has to stop. Even non marxian criticize this, without knowing it.
Producing a shit ton of useless stuff, by working useless jobs 10 hours a days (including transportation).
I mean even with producing 5 times less, so less work time, we still would have a comfortable life.
It's the worship of freshly produced material production. Iphones and luxury cars are emblematic of this.

[Anonymous No.20815064]

Mormonism solved Christianity by giving it a Nietzschean character.

[Anonymous No.20815137]

>>20814936
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-5906.2004.00249.x

[Anonymous No.20815259]

>>20812247
In The Antichrist, Nietzsche also said God and Nature were opposites or that God was created as a force to protect against the seemingly evil Nature. Can't remember exactly.
I think in their materialism they align pretty well.
Maybe even in their scepticism about morality and egalitarianism but I wouldn't know. I haven't read a lot of Marx, very annoying and boring to read.

[Anonymous No.20815292]

>>20809321

[Anonymous No.20815307]

>>20815292
the first 2 are opposite today

[Anonymous No.20815326]

>>20815307
Weren't they back then as well?

[Anonymous No.20815407]

>>20812611
Religion also seems like a projection of sorts, so as capitalism rose up, Christianity also modified to fit this new superstructure which we see with Prosperity Gospel where you can pray to become rich, and rich people (which also includes capitalists) are that way because God blessed them, so to challenge capitalism is basically challenging God.

[Anonymous No.20815423]

>>20812247
Right. So men are creative and independent and so forth and they labor to make things, but then project their creative powers onto God and pray to God to get the virtues (which actually belong to them) back, or more precisely to other men who monopolize the meaning of divine powers. Men also created God but came to believe that God created them.

From what I've read, Marx extended this critique to capital, in that people become to believe that things created them rather than the other way around. Like there's commodity fetishism where men have to buy a thing to "be" something rather than just being that (like to "be a man" requires purchasing a lot of stuff to "live up to that"), or goods and services being traded for purposes other than their use. So he predicted the consumer society. And for capital, people become slaves to capital, or more specifically other men who own capital. They're the Job Creators.

[Anonymous No.20815476]

>>20815259
Interesting
Do we know if they ever met or exchanged letters? I guess they didn't like each other much, but you never know

Bakunin hated Marx but also had good words about him

[Anonymous No.20815855]

>>20815307
kek

[Anonymous No.20815901]

>>20809321
literally both

[Anonymous No.20816011]

>>20815476
Nietzsche and Marx? I don't think so. Which I find a bit strange, since he criticized socialists quite a lot. Maybe he just didn't bother.
He read Feuerbach though, but denounced him, when older in a note calling him, Fichte, Schelling, Hegel and maybe someone I don't remember theologians.