/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20690203]

So if the Inrithi are the Christians and the Fanim are the Muslims, does the mean the Consult are the Jews? Can Bakker bros explain?

[Anonymous No.20690414]

>>20690203
no, the Kiünnat are the jews in this allegory

the consult are like secret fallen angels who whispered in moses' ear and gave him the 10 commandments but added an 11th that they should kill all nonmen they find

[Anonymous No.20691160]

I've read the first book 3 times but can never get through the second. Is it worth it?

[Anonymous No.20691780]

>>20690203
Wouldn't the Dunyain be the Jews?
>Hyper intelligent
>Only care about their own group and purposes
>Pulling all the strings and dominating every group from the inside with mind rape
>Force believer kings into degeneracy and damnation
>No morality
Or at least the /pol/ version of magical Jews.

>>20691160
Second was my favorite of the first three. Ends with a real thriller. I do recall thinking it lagged a bit, but it gets very propulsive at the end, with a lot of shit happening. The last stretch is great. Kellhus unfolding his plans is pretty crazy and Akka's story starts to get more exciting, as does Esmenett's.

The third book I really liked too. Bakker writes great battle scenes. They remind me a bit of the Iliad, with sort of a kaleidoscope of different events and narratives painting a wide ranging picture, and some of the best are here. I did find the culmination of the first series a bit incomplete though. You don't totally know what's happened with Kellhus.

The second series is both weaker and much stronger in the lore/world building side of things. The narrative lags more. There are more main characters and at times things move too slow. There is a "slog" section that started to feel like a slog.

I feel like it would have been improved edited down to three books, but I also still liked it more than almost all other genre fiction so I'm glad the material is there.

The second series focuses way more on the council and you get a much better view of the Gods of Erwa, the philosophy as magic idea gets played up more, and the second series has the best "speculative fiction, big ideas" parts in the series, but they lay pretty far apart from each other. But after the first two books it picks up quite a bit and the fourth might be my favorite of all of them. It was worth the long read just for the "Golden Room" scenes.

It also gets darker. Less of the grim realism of the first books and much more the grim dark of Beserk. I think the series is a lot like Beserk in that they both start with a light fantasy enviornment that is based on a medieval war, and then you hit a turning point where dark supernatural forces become the main antagonists. Great plot twists too.

[Anonymous No.20691789]

>>20691780
*The second series focuses way more on the Consult not the council.

The Consult story and Gods get fleshed out significantly more, as well as the role of the non-men.

[Anonymous No.20692908]

>>20691780
Do the Gods play any role in Prince of Nothing. I don't recall them doing anything until The Aspect Emperor. If anything, it seemed to be implied that they were fake, taking an atheistic frame. The religious authorities definitely act like regular human ones in our history, magic is tied to philosophy not the Gods, and even the spectral evil of the Consult ultimately has a material cause.

The books definitely seem to have an eliminitivist/epiphenomenalist viewpoint, no?

[Anonymous No.20692940]

>>20690203
Consult and Dunyain are easier explained through Dune, where Consult are the Tleilaxu and Dunyain are Mentats with Prescience.

[Anonymous No.20692956]

>>20692908
In the second series the gods play a big role. In fact, they have played a big role in the first series. You just don’t know it yet.

[Anonymous No.20692987]

>>20692908
The first three books anyhow. Then he did Neuropath, which was a fun sort of "psychophilosophical thriller," that nonetheless read like your average airport book thriller. I thought that made it sort of neat, very accessible and eliminative materialism can definitely feel like a horror story.

So, I took all the stuff about salvation and damnation to be sort of a critique on religion, not a main part of the story.

But it seems like maybe his philosophy changes quite a bit over the years, or maybe he just realized that the eliminative view point could only be shown so many ways and was already stale.

Because in the second series (or maybe I just missed it in the first), it seems to take damnation and salvation as a given, as something empirically secured. This sets up a more interesting world for lore building and some of the coolest parts of all the books (the head on a pole scene, the Golden Room, etc.). But the philosophy he seems to want to get across or explore seems a lot different here. There is more room for the soul. There is all the references to the Absolute, which recalls Schelling, Hegel, or Bradley, and idealism more generally.

It makes me wonder if Bakker changed his mind on the strengths of Dennett and how Blind Brain Theory. His BBB paper is pretty good, but I feel like explaining how consciousness is very different from what we think it is, and perhaps much more limited than we think it is does not equal answering the Hard Problem of "why do we have any first person perspective at all, when rocks presumably don't."

I wonder if he's read some of the newer "scientific idealism," stuff coming out of physics and cognitive neuroscience (Hoffman, Pinter, etc.). That might be fuel for the new books, a new way to look at things.

Hell, if I knew him I'd mail him some "It From Bit," participatory universe stuff from physics as inspiration. Have the third series come full circle to idealism, but then maybe an "information theoretic epiphany," by some character that seems to set the soul free leads back to the chains of determinism, just that now, it's an idealist determinism where information is fundemental (gotta keep to horror elements and all).

I fucking love those books. It's a shame it seems we won't be getting new ones anytime soon. If it's the publishers, he should just self publish, he'd probably make more money that way.

[Anonymous No.20692989]

>>20690203
Brian Catling but reddit

[Anonymous No.20693042]

>>20692940
This. Not all influence in the book comes from one source and not all the factions correspond to real factions of our world. Dune and LotR being prime movers of Bakker’s books.

[Anonymous No.20693054]

>>20692987
The books have enough of a following online that I think he could definitely make a solid chunk of change self publishing. I may be wrong though, I don't know how bad the online distributors fuck authors on ebook sales, and it is hard to sell just through your own website.

But, since the group you selling to at this point already followed you for seven fairly long books, you're probably not losing too much by going that route, since it's the commited folks you're selling to anyhow.

But I imagine getting cash advances is a pretty big help to allow you to focus on writing full time. IDK how well he made out on the books. They all got audio productions so I have to imagine they sold decently, and there is a market for first edition hardcovers and before publication proof editions, which is normally a good sign of interest.

[Anonymous No.20693061]

>>20690203
Consult are Satanists

[Anonymous No.20693101]

>>20693042
I always thought of it as Dune meets LOTR meets Beserk meets Game of Thrones.

Dune because of the Mentat - Dunyain similarities and long looks at people's internal states.

Beserk because it's pretty fucking grim and the Consult is a Cenobite/Apostle type antagonist, as are the Ciphrang. It's more like Beserk in the second series.

LOTR because of all the history, long descriptions of cool settings, and the epic scale. (It's more like LOTR in the second series).

Game of Thrones because there is also an element of realism there. The first three books are closely based on the First Crusade, and it has some of the intrigue of GRRM's work. I don't think intrigue is Bakker's strong suit though so it worked in his favor that he dropped this element more in the second series. I still think the first series was better, but the second series has cooler ideas. It just needed a better editor, maybe some parts moved out to short stories. Like, I loved parts of the Horse King saga (fuck spelling his names) and the non-men city, but that shit could have been kicked out to a novella and made the second series tighter.

[Anonymous No.20693133]

>>20693101
Large parts of the slog and the ghost dragon could go too. Just have it involve different characters and make it a side story?

Obviously you still need that arc, but it could be made shorter in some areas. Definitely not the Survivor parts though, those are some of the best parts in the whole series

[Anonymous No.20693145]

>>20691780
>Wouldn't the Dunyain be the Jews?
>Hyper intelligent
No.

[Anonymous No.20693157]

>>20693133
I think the slog of slogs is just perfect. You will suffer just as Achamian does.

[Anonymous No.20693176]

Honestly my first thought when hearing Bakker is the infamous televangelist Jim Bakker and this seems somewhat related

Tolkien explicitly excluded religion from his stories because he believed the Christian themes were woven directly into the Lord of the Rings, citing it as a fundamentally religious and Catholic work

Have not read this guy but it does seem like he's created a compelling universe that incorporates these themes as Frank Herbert did with Dune or as Emil Pagliarulo did with Skyrim

[Anonymous No.20693373]

>>20693054
he has some very well-documented personal issues, both his own fault and accidental, that prevent him from writing or accepting that he can't get picked up by a real publisher anytime soon.

[Anonymous No.20693413]

>>20690203
Where should I start with this guy? I’d like to give his books a go.

[Anonymous No.20693430]

>>20693413
>Where should I start with this guy
you shouldn't unless you really like gay ero-guro

[Anonymous No.20693585]

>>20691789
> Achamian and Cleric in salvation
They're both damned

[Anonymous No.20693615]

>>20693413
You don’t unless you want an author who shoves his politics in his books.

[Anonymous No.20693621]

>>20693145
Jews are the smartest ethnicity, specifically Ashkenazi Jews.

[Anonymous No.20693630]

>>20693621
according to jewish-made "IQ" tests? Lmao
>smartest jews are the caucasian-interbred ones
lmao

[Anonymous No.20693743]

>>20693413
The Darkness That Comes Before. Most of his work is one series, and it's his best stuff too.

>>20693615
T. Hasn't read the books.

One of the biggest criticisms of Bakker is that he's a chauvinist sexist. I don't think this is a fair critique because the sexism in the books are a biproduct of the historical realism, while the horror themed violence happens to both males and females. But it's generally lefties who attack him. They also attack him for having so much of people's cognitive ability tied up in genetics (the whole Dunyain breeding).

Yeah, he's said some libshit stuff on his blog. Who fucking cares, it's not in the books. You /pol/cultists need everyone to agree with you, any deviation means someone's opinions or work is worthless, which is ironically the same problem with hardcore SJWs.

[Anonymous No.20693755]

>>20693621
good thing you specified ashkenazis because the other kinds of jews are low iq. In case you didn't know though, you can't give people the test once they're retarded enough. Jews have an overrepresentative amount of retards from centuries of inbreeding.
This is why despite having higher IQs they've made so few scientific and philosophical accomplishments: the numbers are inflated because dumb jews are too dumb to take the test.

[Anonymous No.20693769]

>>20693743
>One of the biggest criticisms of Bakker is that he's a chauvinist sexist
okay but in real life he's a male feminist. Who cares what illiterate retards have to say about him when he clearly hates men (they're all evil rapists in his books) and also thinks all religious people are secretly gay (they're constantly raping each other in his books)
Grimdark fantasy is itself anti-historical propaganda, meant to make successful peoples hate their heritage, and it always was

[Anonymous No.20693775]

>>20693615
I lost all respect for him

[Anonymous No.20693778]

>>20693615
>For years now I’ve been shouting from the fringe, shouting, warning about the political and social consequences of academic ingroup excesses. I’ve been telling humanities academics that what they called ‘critical thinking’ was primarily an ingroup conceit, a way to be both morally and intellectually self-righteous at once, and that this, inevitably, was contributing to a vast process of counter-identification, actually stoking the very racism and sexism they claimed to be combating. Trump is what happens when you claim to be whipping yourself while leaving only welts on those (apparently) lacking the ability to defend themselves in academic contexts.

Honestly, a good take.

[Anonymous No.20693811]

>>20693769
>"Who cares what his books are like?"
The readers. I don't really care what a genre fiction author says outside their work, or any author.

Do you have to research every author you read to ensure that they haven't slighted the Orange Augustus, God Emperor of the Based Pedes?

You do realize that this sort of thinking is the same type of retardation that leads to SJWs demanding that Kant and Hegel be canceled because somewhere in their thousands of pages of writing are a few lines calling blacks inferior, opinions they held based on no personal experience.

You folks sure do love your purity.

[Anonymous No.20693814]

>>20693811
>"Who cares what his books are like?"
who are you quoting you meely mouthed retard?

[Anonymous No.20694129]

>>20693755
>This is why despite having higher IQs they've made so few scientific
lmao you absolute drooling retard. it's opposite. they are overrepresented. Your cope is hilarious though.
>>20693630
your argument is exactly same as what niggers make about evil yties.

[Anonymous No.20694434]

>>20693755
Fuck off back to /pol/ retard.

[Anonymous No.20694451]

>>20694129
Yeah, they love IQ tests and all the academics who are "real scientists and will look at IQ and race," but then hate those same academics and studies when the Black-White Gap turns out to be about the same size as the White-Jew gap. Except it's worse than that because verbal logical IQ is more important to success in earnings and scientific achievement, and Jews have a normal visio-spatial IQ and are close to two standard deviations up above Whites in some papers.

They could become non-retarded and realize judging people by group means when groups have millions of diverse members is dumb, but then again, they probably have low IQs since studies also show that racists tend to be lower IQ.

They absolutely love Charles Murray. Particularly those graphs showing how a huge share of scientific achievement occured in Europe. The problem is that Europe's pull ahead here came later in history and coincides with the emancipation of the Jewish, and this chart is right next to the ones they love to post in their infographics.

[Anonymous No.20694460]

>>20694451
Forgot it.

[Anonymous No.20694981]

>>20690203
>So if the Inrithi are the Christians and the Fanim are the Muslims
Premise is false. They are neither. They have a similar scriptural origin and organisation but integrate all religions/cults seemingly. also, they have sacred prostitution. The languages and the cultures correspond to realworld analogues fairly well however, if a bit memey. He didn't bother with the worldbuilding autismo there. The rest is from Dune and the spirit of the story is from Tolkien. Surprisingly, le epic rationalist man is more respecting of fantasy than his nu-fantasy peers.

[Anonymous No.20695036]

>>20693743
The sexism in the books is a pretext for somewhat heavyhanded feminism. But outside that, I would say it's an interesting and sympathetic realistic take on women in such a society. It's ridiculous to get angry about it when he tried to write seriously from the female perspective and condition, while these dumb women love anti-women man-larping sociopath action heroines. The problem is even that isn't tolerated in our time and you have to be very explicit/virtue signally. As well as exclude any presentation of sexism, or just normal differences and relations between men and women, that isn't a braindead caricature to immediately tear down with childish gotchas, violence, and bluster. People today are too dumb and literal-minded for fiction. Too much fanfiction and infantile YA has stunted them.

[Anonymous No.20695109]

>>20694129
bitter shrieking isn't an argument

>>20694434
>nobel prizes are a measure of accomplishment or intelligence
worlds smartest philosemite. The nobel for economics alone is a giant joke

[Anonymous No.20695214]

>>20690203
So is this guy a cock-craving faggot or what?

[Anonymous No.20695222]

>>20695214
Yeah, he’s also an atheist.

[Anonymous No.20696157]

Glorious bump

[Anonymous No.20696179]

>>20694434
nobel prize nomination is literally politics though... who do you think is giving out the awards? Ashkenazim also make up the most birth defects and mentall illnesses per capita. lastly, even if you beleve ashkenazi jews are "the most intelligent" that would be an argument towads their european dna making them that smart, since other jewish groups aren't as european genetically as ashkenazim. that's literally saying "white people are smarter." checkmate.

[Anonymous No.20696602]

>>20696179
>Who do you think is giving out the awards?
The Swiss for much of the time.

>you beleve ashkenazi jews are "the most intelligent" that would be an argument towads their european dna making them that smart, since other jewish groups aren't as european genetically as ashkenazim. that's literally saying "white people are smarter." checkmate

Yeah bro, checkmate me on refuting an argument I never made. Your logic is as good as your grammar.


Go cry in your eco chamber, this is a thread for people who read the books, not people who say "x writer said the God Emperor bad, they are an evil JewLib!!!"

[Anonymous No.20696610]

I don't totally get the geography of Erwa. The Byzantium stand in seems too small.

[Anonymous No.20696620]

>>20696610
Also, do we ever hear what is in Eänna?

[Anonymous No.20696950]

>>20693101
there's also the skin spies which are very similar to things in dune, same as the probability trance

[Anonymous No.20696953]

>>20696620
yomamma

[Anonymous No.20696985]

>>20695214
Don't check his blog, he's a raving leftist lunatic that's suffering from TDS

[Anonymous No.20696994]

>>20696610
Why does the map look like a nutsack?

[Anonymous No.20697061]

Convince a chud like me to read Bakker

[Anonymous No.20697367]

>>20697061
Don't really know what floats your boat but I'll tell you about my experience reading the book and what happened after.
I was quite new to fantasy couple of years ago, not really reading much of anything until some kind of reading bug hit me and I've been reading a lot since. I started with stuff like LotR, Witcher, Mistborn and so on until one day I saw some reviews of Bakker's books and /sffg/ was teeming with memes about the series, so I decided why no try, what harm could it do?
I got my hands on the ebook, and ordered a copy from the library. So far so good so I started reading and as I did I noticed it was pretty good. Prose was something I had not seen before, quite ornate but still dense and full of meaning. The characters were interesting and the world was fleshed out thoroughly. And not much time went by as I ordered in fact, all the rest of the books from the library so I could read them and ordered the actual books from Amazon and whatnot so I could have copies of my own one day. To make a long story short, I was hooked and I did read all the seven books of the Second Apocalypse series in couple months and ever since no fantasy has ever felt quite the same as the series left a big hole in my heart when it ended. Since then, I've listened to the audiobooks twice, enjoying each time a little more.
Might be, that you will like the books, who knows? Start with The Darkness That Comes Before.

[Anonymous No.20697409]

>>20697061
Depends on what sort of chud you are bro. If you like LOTR, Dune, and Berserk, you're probably going to like Bakker. If you dislike those, you're probably not going to like it.

Neuropath is more accessible, just a low sci-fi thriller, but also not as good.

[Anonymous No.20697479]

>>20697061
The books revealed my inner chud because I realized very late in the series that the guy I thought was the hero was definitely the villain, and arguably worse than the many demonlike supernatural entities in the world.

And then I read reviews and people seemed to get that he was the villain from the beginning.

[Anonymous No.20697500]

>>20697479
what a dumb series. I'm not reading

[Anonymous No.20697530]

>>20697479
That's up to a debate. Who you consider a villain depends on the perspective. I actually I am pro-Kellhus all the way. Fuck your aliens.

[Anonymous No.20697541]

>>20696610
The Yimaleti mountains look like Norway

[Anonymous No.20697554]

>>20697541
You don't say? It's not like the whole damn map just looks like Europe through some fish-eye lens. Which is not a bad thing in itself.

[Anonymous No.20697744]

>>20697530

[Anonymous No.20697853]

>>20696610
The population density varies a lot. 90% of that map is basically uninhabited (by humans at least). Only the areas between the mountains and the seas near the center are densely populated, with the highest densities in Ainon, Nansur, and the initially Kianene cities to the south.

[Anonymous No.20697874]

>>20697744
Fish burgers are flavourful

[Anonymous No.20698304]

>>20697530
The Consult merely wants to escape suffering, anyone would. While their plan consigns many to suffering, that was going to happen in the long term anyway. Anyone they send off to the Granary was going to end up there anyhow.

But when the Consult gets its way, that will be it. No one else needs to go. Net suffering is way lower. Perhaps the Outside night even collapse, cut off from the world, although the fact that the Progenitors knew of it too suggests not. There are other planets after all.

But Kellhus is a total piece of shit spider and who knows what he's doing.

Obviously he had some sort of plan. He didn't just randomly decide to leave to Ordeal and set the stage for Kel to go in the box. It seems like he betrayed the Four Horned Brother, but if he couldn't find him, then Kellhus is not on the Outside. But I have no clue what the big play is supposed to be. He does have an internal monologue before he does one of his rapes (you know the one...) where he thinks about how everyone, all his family, is about to die, so it's unclear what the scheme was. Maybe it all went according to plan? But then the plan is shit.

If he's an "Inverse Prophet," then I suppose instead of being a man who speaks to men for God he is a man who speaks to God for man. I guess that's the head on the pole scenes.

I do wonder about the actual existence of the Solitary God, maybe that comes into play or redeems Kellhus.

But he seems like he either:
>Fucked up from hubris, although he seemed to know who was running the Golden Room show before it was revealed.
>Has a plan that fucks everyone else.

I guess it depends on when the Four Horned starts speaking for him. Was his plan to keep the Granary full? Or did he just not care either way because when he goes to Hell, he goes "as a hunter?" (Because it seems like, while on the Outside, he can still BTFO the entities there, hence the heads)

Seems like the Consult wanted to reduce suffering as much as possible, and worst you can say is that they are selfish. Kellhus seems to want to become a God, at least that's one way to read it.

[Anonymous No.20698316]

BTW, I call bullshit on the article by his brother.

I'm sure the part about him taking a break is true. Obviously he dropped off the face of the Earth and isn't trying to keep interest up. Probably got burned out.

But there is no way, with all the hints at an unresolved ending in TUC, he is only doing a prequel to the Aspect Emperor.

The only way that makes sense is if the prequel reveals what Kellhus's plan was. I can see how, if his plan unfolds on the Outside, it might be too hard to write. Then a prequel could make sense, in that it makes the ending make more sense.

That said, there are a lot of loose threads with other characters, Crab Boy, the baby, the guy stuck in the head.

Seems like misdirection to me. Or maybe he goes back to explain the origins of the plan and then skips forward to tie things up.

[Anonymous No.20698414]

>>20698304
I think no one can say what is really going on at this point in the story with any certainty, except to say that it doesn't matter. Either Kellhus bit off more than he could chew, and simply couldn't stop the inevitable, or he knew that outcome was inevitable and allowed himself to be corrupted into one of fate's executors, which is all he was ever going to be.

[Anonymous No.20698552]

>>20694434
>Krugman was born to a Russian Jewish family,

[Anonymous No.20699440]

>>20697479

It's not clear what Kellhus' end goal is, but he was an asshole from the very beginning (leaving that woodcutter to die, then sacrificing his expedition to get to the 3 seas). You are probably just susceptible to Stockholm's syndrome.

[Anonymous No.20699654]

Bakkerniggers are so boring

[Anonymous No.20699859]

>>20698414

Nah, he clearly planned the No God coming. He's sitting in one of those heads. When he decapitates himself he can visit the Outside but can't be killed since he isn't dead. There is a whole scene on that.

He's probably holding the Hundred ransom. He brought Ajokli there so one of them would see what was going to happen, that the world would be shut.

He may have also intentionally damned and the gotten an army of his fanatics killed so that they are on the Outside for him to use. Or they were just collateral damage. I think not though, because it's clear he could have just fucked up the Inchori at any time and gone to the Golden Room without an army to help. The Consult, at least the non-Dunyain, didn't have magic that could even frazzle him. So it clearly wasn't about killing the Consult. He also brought the future no God there for them, went out of his way to do it. But he also isn't helping the Consult.

He's going to starve the Gods of fresh souls and threaten to shut the world to get something. My bet is the long game has to do with the Solitary God, his God of Gods, and destroying the Hundred. The Dunyain goal was always freedom.

[Anonymous No.20699882]

>>20699859
And given his MO, and that the gods can possess people, can be inside physical bodies, I'm guessing he raped a god before it's all over.

Cucking ain't easy. Truth shines.

[Anonymous No.20700052]

>>20699859
nah he would have got btfo from the 100 skin spies with chorae

[Anonymous No.20701123]

>>20700052
Yeah, if he did the exact same thing, which would be dumb as shit.

But he's smart so he wouldn't do the exact same thing. Point is, the armies are totally meaningless because Kellhus can repulse the Techne with his magic and is so far above the Consult that he dispatches them like children.

If he wanted to just kill the Consult, he'd go to Ishual first anyhow and recruit his brothers, as the Dunyain, even without magic (at first), still manage to dominate the Consult and have them groveling before them. Kellhus knows going in that the Dunyain are running the show because he tells the Consult to fuck off and bring our the real boss. That the remaining Dunyain are ruling in part through magic is shown when they use sorcery to their Kel in the box.

But Kellhus obviously knows Kel can't be seen by the Gods and is Mog, because:
A. He leaves the Ordeal just to get him, didn't kill him, and let him escape.
B. Just happens to have him around to stop the White Luck Warrior each time, which seems planned since the White Luck is the Gods trying to set up events "just so," and he is finding the one set of outcomes where he lives.


The confusing thing is the fake Kellhus showing up and telling everyone that they won, and all the Consults forces seemingly breaking. At first I thought this was a Consult hologram of Kellhus because people said it was online, but there is literally no evidence of that in the text.

Mimara goes into White Luck mode at this point and moves to kill Kellhus. This means whatever the fake Kellhus is, even the Gods think he is real, and want to salt him. But then he isn't real. And at the end Ajokli is storming around looking for Kellhus, again implying he isn't dead and on the Outside.

I always took the way the White Luck Warriors actually experienced their success to be a nod at Everett's multiple worlds interpretation. Kellhus says something to the effect of "I look at the wave of all possible outcomes and choose," so it almost seems like in some he dies, some he doesn't.

Now the Survivor has his whole monologue about zero, and how loss is virtue. The Judging Eye opens on this and "approved." Suffering yields salvation, to lose is holy.

When I think about that point, I wonder if it is Kellhus who makes the fake Kellhus at the end. He brings the hopes of his followers up to an absolute crescendo after they have given everything to him, then he has Mog emerge and vanishes, the ultimate let down.

Perhaps in a way he is saving them, that or using them in a bigger way. The ending is sort of incoherent if you suppose he didn't mean for Mog to show up though. He says the Golden Room is conditioned ground, that seems to imply he always meant to fuck Ajokli over.

[Anonymous No.20701172]

>>20701123
I hold on to my belief that Kellhus becomes the Solitary God. In a way, he always was the Solitary God. You can see especially in the earlier books where things literally happen how Kellhus says they would.

[Anonymous No.20701189]

red david foster wallace

[Anonymous No.20701234]

>>20701172
I could see this. The realization of the Absolute is evolutionary, taking place through history. So it would make sense that the "Second Apocalypse," the end of the world/end of history, would be where he makes the final step into becoming. That would make him the mirror opposite of the No God, which collapses subject and object. He rather ascends by sublating subject and object into a greater whole.

So I can see how that blog by his brother could be correct, that he only plans on a prequel. Because a prequel could still reveal a lot if it shows what the meaning of the ending was. And it could still show things that happen after the end of TUC, because things on the Outside don't have a temporal order, so the end should have already happened in some ways.

I get the feeling that the Hundred are sort of dark archetypal forces birthed from consciousness, so it seems like part of the plan would be to somehow sublate them as part of a greater Absolute, where their wicked desires no longer have free reign.

[Anonymous No.20701381]

Acha is a fat cuck!
I don't care where it's been, I WILL lick Esmi's butt!

[Anonymous No.20701397]

>the bakkerfag is lose from his containment thread
M-mods

[Anonymous No.20701496]

>>20699440
Calling Kellhus an ass hole is dumb to begin with.

[Anonymous No.20701512]

>>20699859
Holy fucking based.

An actual intelligent Bakker enjoyer.

Only thing I can add is He’s greater challenge has been the mastering of Cishaurim magic, which is why he starts showing “weakness” when he declares himself to Esmi near the end.

[Anonymous No.20701706]

>>20701512
Good point.

The other interpretation of his ability to levitate without the mark of sorcery is that he was already possessed before the battle began. I don't think this makes sense. This implies that it was Ajokli, who can't see Kellhus's son, who went back to save him and set the stage for him ending up in the Ark. That makes little sense.

Also the Gods don't leave a mark of sorcery, but when Akka runs into Kellhus he has an absolutely atrocious mark of sorcery.

The bit of Kellhus's inner monologue we see does that he does seem to care for his people. It's suggested he's using emotion for the Ciasharum magic and we also know the Ciasharum travel to the outside and see the truth of the Granary, so that suggests he is using their magic on his travels too.

It might be that sacrificing everyone he loves, including his family, is the emotional push he needs to get to zero and attain the Absolute or whatever.

He's also an inverse prophet so it makes sense that he sort of reverses everything. Obviously the Circumfix is a parallel of Christ, sacrificing himself for everyone else. The end of TUC could be a reversal, the prophet sacrificing everyone else to himself and his greater purpose.

If you follow the Absolute references, you can think about the roll of Christ in The Phenomenology of Spirit. He's the actuality of self consciousness recognizing itself in the other. The Dunyain are after the "Absolute Spirit," which is self moving, not driven on by cause alone. They seek to gain this freedom from the Logos alone, but any good Hegelian can tell you this is foolish. Things come in triads and return on themselves. You progress to the Word, but then to Spirt, and then return to the Father (the original ground, or "object" in Pierce's spin on Hegel).

At least those are the connections I saw. I might be totally off base. Price of Nothing and his BBB paper are quite eliminativist, and Neuropath even more so (epiphenomalism is thrown in in Neuropath but doesn't show up in PON, where the Dunyain clearly gain from organizing conscious experience.) But Aspect Emperor is full of references to Absolute Idealism and Hegel is the obvious inspiration (it also didn't feel like Bradley, but maybe Schelling). I might also have missed some references in PON though, I wasn't really looking for them.



It also sort of fits that everyone else's actions can be seen as ancillary to, and just small contributions to the final movement, even as they search for truth and purpose.

[Anonymous No.20701849]

>>20701706
The False Sun wasn't written for no reason. There are very clear implications. I know we won't hear from Bakker for at least 10 more years, but I do hope he concludes the series. I truly do.

[Anonymous No.20702705]

Kant was fully retroactively refuted by Bakker.

For example, while Quine fatally weakened the synthetic/analytic distinction, it was Bakker who provided the proof that calcified dogma is not observably different from analytic fact using a combination of the philosophy of information and semiotics of abstraction, joining the logical systems of Floridi to the physics of messaging via Landauer's Principal and computational entropy. Incomputability, Krylov Complexity, Yao Entropy, have disasterous consequences for proving analytics that are not tautologies, and nowhere is this more apparent then in the Dunyain-Logos Paradigm, as viewed from the Absolute Judging Eye Vector, Whale Rape Gang Bang Hypothesis laid out in The Great Ordeal. Bakker brings philosophy from Kant to Quine full circle, unsublating both, so both can be resublated as an organic whole into the dynamics of whale-mother-cave-rape-as-logos, which provides proof of the incompleteness of Logos due to the incomputability problem. Turing would have been proud!

Note that Kant is also more seriously retroactively refuted vis-á-vis the transcendental aesthetic via the proof of Meat Fueled Murder Rape Orgy (where the inefficiency of the alien space nuke, and resultant high level of radiation released, reminiscent of primitive, WWII era nuclear weapons, results in the Scalded as a boipussy dynamical system, which, shows that even a simple system represented by a differential equation can, and will necissarily produce chaos if it reaches a phase of three in any cycle.) The result is that the faculties cannot be an anchor of anything, as strong variance driven by "initial" conditions invariably leads to chaos. Bakker symbolizes this using the stochastic forces of nuclear radiation, as from those quantum activity we still see the larger classical objects of emergence in the rape orgy.

This shows the teleology of rape, the Inchori Theory and defeats appeals to classical ethics as such.

Again, even more than retroactive refutation, which others have done, Bakker RETROACTIVELY SUBLATES Kant.

[Anonymous No.20702935]

>>20693615
This just makes it even more hilarious though. A lefty cuck whose books are only enjoyed by rightists

Also, is Bakker even alive anymore?

[Anonymous No.20702956]

>>20702935
He is. But Probably won't write anything in the next 15 years.

[Anonymous No.20703184]

WHAT DO THEY SAY ABOUT TRUTH, BROTHERS?

[Anonymous No.20703412]

Why did Kellhus kill everyone in such an excessively brutal (cool) way, when he teleported into the Fanim leader's tent and tele-dropped people?
He even had a one-liner.

I just feel like when he is doing no-witness cleanup stuff like that, where everyone dies.
He wouldn't bother to speak, or make a show.

[Anonymous No.20703454]

>>20703412
Someone does live though. He traps that dude in a head to watch everything.

Either he did that for a reason or it was just so Bakker could narrate some of the scenes without Kellhus's POV. Probably a combo.

I mean, the guy stuck in the head, as fucked as he is, has to totally worship the power of Kellhus now. Especially if/when he comes back after fucking the gods over.

[Anonymous No.20703474]

>>20703454
Aha, right
he isn't exactly dead

I still think Kellhus does cool stuff when no one is watching

[Anonymous No.20703493]

>>20703474
Because he's so intelligent he probably knows he's in a book and wants to win us over so he can manipulate us.

Maybe Bakker locked himself away because Kellhus grew too strong and would manipulate the world through Bakker's pen and take over the Earth?

[Anonymous No.20703512]

>>20703493
>yfw The No God turns out to be a fourth wall breaking pomo work where Kellhus transcends Erwa's Outside and reaches the true Outside of our world, instantiating himself in Bakker's neutral tissue and dominating him.
>The book will be a huge success and Bakker will coast on the fame and his newfound abilities to become leader of Canada, growing more power all the time.
>But this will actually be Kellhus ruling him from within...

[Anonymous No.20703613]

>>20701397
>is lose from his containment thread
Bakker hater esl
Kellhus reigns supreme in hell
Though you screech and cry and shit
The Dunyain predicted all of it

[Anonymous No.20703630]

>>20701397
>The Bakkerfag
We are legion. Truth shines!

[Anonymous No.20704270]

>>20690203
Nah, it's the ancient Tusk religion that is Jews. Inri Sejanus is the Christlike figure for the Inrithi, although it's not a total parallel because he's just a prophet. Then the Fanim have their own Mohammed like guy.

But they all still follow the Tusk. There are no Jews really though because just straight Tusk religion is gone.

[Anonymous No.20705664]

>>20704270
We all know who gave men the tusk, the same tusk that condemned sorcerers, who are by far the best weapon against you know who.

[Anonymous No.20706597]

[Anonymous No.20706660]

Help, just had son. Wut do to turn him into Dunyain and free him?

----

“Thousands of years ago, when the Dûnyain first found—”

“After the ancient wars?” Kellhus eagerly interrupted. “When we were still refugees?”

The Pragma struck him, fiercely enough to send him rolling across the hard stone. Kellhus scrambled back to position and wiped the blood from his nose. But he felt little fear and even less regret. The blow was a lesson, nothing more. Among the Dûnyain, everything was a lesson.

The Pragma regarded him with utter dispassion. “Interruption is weakness, young Kellhus. It arises from the passions and not from the intellect. From the darkness that comes before.”

“I understand, Pragma.”

The cold eyes peered through him and saw this was true. “When the Dûnyain first found Ishuäl in these mountains, they knew only one principle of the Logos. What was that principle, young Kellhus?”

“That which comes before determines that which comes after.”

The Pragma nodded. “Two thousand years have passed, young Kellhus, and we still hold that principle true. Does that mean the principle of before and after, of cause and effect, has grown old?”

“No, Pragma.”

“And why is that? Do men not grow old and die? Do not even mountains age and crumble with time?”

“Yes, Pragma.”

“Then how can this principle not be old?”

“Because,” Kellhus answered, struggling to snuff a flare of pride, “the principle of before and after is nowhere to be found within the circuit of before and after. It is
the ground of what is ‘young’ and what is ‘old,’ and so cannot itself be young or old.”

“Yes. The Logos is without beginning or end. And yet Man, young Kellhus, does possess a beginning and end—like all beasts. Why is Man distinct from other beasts?”

“Because like beasts, Man stands within the circuit of before and after, and yet he apprehends the Logos. He possesses intellect.”

“Indeed. And why, Kellhus, do the Dûnyain breed for intellect? Why do we so assiduously train young children such as you in the ways of thought, limb, and face?”

“Because of the Quandary of Man.”

“And what is the Quandary of Man?”

A bee had droned into the shrine, and now it etched drowsy, random circles beneath the vaults.

“That he is a beast, that his appetites arise from the darkness of his soul, that his world assails him with arbitrary circumstance, and yet he apprehends the Logos.”

“Precisely. And what is the solution to the Quandary of Man?”

“To be utterly free of bestial appetite. To utterly command the unfolding of circumstance. To be the perfect instrument of Logos and so attain the Absolute.”

“Yes, young Kellhus. And are you a perfect instrument of Logos?”

“No, Pragma.”

“And why is that?”

“Because I am afflicted by passions. I am my thoughts, but the sources of my thoughts exceed me. I do not own myself, because the darkness comes before me.”

[Anonymous No.20706666]

>>20706660
Also my wife is world born not Whale Mother. How do you into a Whale Mother GF?

[Anonymous No.20707898]

>>20706660
Just tell him about the darkness of his soul, explain him why men act like they do. Maybe raise him a stoic.

[Anonymous No.20707911]

>>20707898
to add to that. It should be obvious that your son does NOT have the capabilities of the Dunyain, he does not have super high IQ, his strength is not super, his reaction time is average. All the things that allowed Dunyain to reign over men or not at your disposal, rather only the control of the darkness. Perhaps he could also learn to read faces and manipulate people.-

[Anonymous No.20708809]

>>20707911
He liked to play with these foam blocks I got him. I explained to him that he was being ruled by his passions and needed to restrain himself from touching the blocks.

Well, the little shit crawled forward a bit and grabbed the blocks anyhow. So I slapped him across the room like the Pragma does. Fine, right? Even Kellhus needed corrections.

Nope, my wife goes fucking berserk, "how can you hit a baby!!!" Clearly I'm fucking training him. Then she scoops him up and runs off with him, telling me I'm crazy.

Little fucker looks at me over her shoulder and smiles at me. Mother fucker did it on purpose to own me, he baited me into slapping him so he could have leverage over me.

I KNEW I shouldn't have listened to the Bakker audiobooks with him around. He's already manipulating me like Cnauir. I will have my revenge!