/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20555738]

This is not good at all. Thanks for wasting my time

[Anonymous No.20555744]

Pearls before swine

[Anonymous No.20555751]

>>20555738
Agreed. Wolfe has an almost legendary status amongst fellow authors; Gaiman called him 'a ferocious intellect', Swanwick said he's "the greatest writer in the English language alive today", and Disch called this series "a tetralogy of couth, intelligence, and suavity".

You can rarely trust the popular market to single out good authors, but you'd think it might be safe to listen to the opinions of other writers (especially an assemblage of Nebula and Hugo winners in their own right). I will give his fans one concession: Wolfe is an author who defies expectations. Unfortunately, I was expecting him to be remarkable and interesting.

This book had been sitting on my shelf for months, along with other highly-praised works I've been looking forward to, but I bade my time, waiting for the mood to strike. Few live up to their reputation, but most at least deliver part of the promise.

I would expect any author mentioned in the same breath as Peake to have an original and vibrant style, but I found Wolfe's writing to be simple without being elegant. His language and structure serves its purpose, only occasionally rising above mere utilitarianism, and then he rushes to florid flourishes that fall flat as often as they succeed. Sometimes, it is downright dull. The prose of the second book is stronger than the first, but its plot and characters are more linear and predictable.

I appreciated his 'created language' more than most fantasy authors, but I didn't find it particularly mysterious or difficult, because all of his words are based on recognizable Germanic or Romantic roots. Then again, after three years of writing stories about Roman whores in Latin, I had little problem with 'meretriculous'. Even those words I wasn't familiar with seemed clear by their use.

The terms are scattered throughout the book, but rarely contribute to a more pervasive linguistic style, as might be seen in The Worm Ouroboros, The Lord of the Rings, Gormenghast, or The King of Elfland's Daughter. Wolfe's terms pepper otherwise and unremarkable modern style, which hardly helps to throw us into a strange world.

He is better than the average fantasy author, but he resembles them more than he differs from them. His protagonist started off interestingly enough: an apparently weak and intelligent man, which made it all the more disappointing when he suddenly transformed into a laconic, wench-loving buttkicker who masters sword-fighting, finds the Super Magic Thing and follows the path of his Awesome Foretold Fate. Again, I must agree with Nick Lowe: Wolfe's plot owes more to magic and convenience than good storytelling.

[Anonymous No.20555789]

>>20555738
I could have told you Wolfe is a hack. I say it often enough.

[Anonymous No.20555854]

>>20555738
coulda read a choose your own adventure instead

[Anonymous No.20555935]

>>20555751
>Everyone is wrong but me

[Anonymous No.20556008]

>>20555935
Wolfefags can’t take criticism, what a shocker.

[Anonymous No.20556613]

>>20555751
I haven't seen this copypasta in a while

[Anonymous No.20556841]

Urth is so boring, I'm 40% in, I can't wait for it to end. But I must finish because I already read the 4 other books

[Anonymous No.20556856]

Ich habe das erste Buch gelesen. Ich werde nicht mehr lesen.

[Anonymous No.20556893]

>>20556841
>But I must finish because I already read the 4 other books
False

[Anonymous No.20557054]

>>20555738
You can't judge sci-fi by literary standards, you need to judge it by its own norms internal to the genre. Compared to YA or kindle erotica some sci-fi is even palatable.

[Anonymous No.20557055]

>>20555751
Who the hell is Nick Lowe?
>inb4 le google
I don’t think a musician has a meritable opinion on literature.

[Anonymous No.20557084]

>>20557055
Someone who wrote an article in 1986 called "The Well-Tempered Plot Device". It might be the British guy because it appears to be a British publication, but that would be strange.
He makes reference to Gene Wolfe once, saying
>And this is what I mean when I say there are rules governing bad writing that you simply have to learn if you're to become a successful manufacturer of exploitation fiction. Perhaps I ought to clarify what I mean by that last category as applied to SF: I'm thinking principally of escapist adventure stories with no particular pretensions to engage the higher cortical functions and consisting chiefly of well-worn ideas and storytelling techniques recycled more or less formulaically. But in a way that's the least interesting quarter of the field under survey, because you'll find in practice that the techniques of shoddy fiction have permeated SF to such an extent that you can observe these same rules in operation even in some jolly good books, and many more with pretensions to being jolly good. I'll be drawing illustrations from all these categories, but obviously it's the last one that intrigues me most. Predictability, you see, even though we use the term disparagingly, has become in recent years a very bankable commodity in SF and fantasy publishing. The publishers know the public knows what it wants: it wants more of the same. Safe books. No surprises. Familiar surroundings from page one. And this means that even writers with considerable literary pretensions have had to learn the Art of the Predictable as part of the basic equipment of their trade. In Gene Wolfe, who is rather a subtle writer, this only results in the occasional irritating embarrassment; in Stephen Donaldson, who is about as subtle as a lead brick, it results in contemptible gaseous claptrap. Examples follow in due course.

[Anonymous No.20557097]

>>20557055
>>20557084
Oh actually he goes into detail about the scene in Claw of the Conciliator where he's fighting the, I forget what he calls them in the novel, the ape men.
Basically complaining that unrealistic things happen in genre fiction. Criticizes Tolkien for the same reason.

[Anonymous No.20557109]

>>20555738
It's you getting filtered, mate. He was a Catholic, which might have something to do with it.

[Anonymous No.20557116]

>>20557097
>Basically complaining that unrealistic things happen in genre fiction
Has that retard never read an epic?

[Anonymous No.20557133]

>>20557116
Idk, not my problem really but he's actually praising Gene Wolfe.
I don't know how anyone could call Book of the New Sun predictable anyways when it's so completely mysterious and unpredictable. I was in awe at what was going to happen next every chapter and had no idea where the plot was going in general except that Severian was going to Thrax and would somehow become Autarch.

[Anonymous No.20557148]

>the Wolf strikes again
based Gene

[Anonymous No.20557149]

>>20557133
I'm sure most of the shitflinging comes from pseuds who haven't even read it and with pseuds I mean people who read for status, working through lists of classics without even understanding what they are reading, mainly because their worldview is severely underdeveloped or outright retarded.

[Anonymous No.20557159]

>>20555738
Finishing the fourth book as we speak
I loved the series. As cringe as it sounds I catch myself asking what would Severian do and have been more stoic and collected because of it
Admittedly I have a severe case of Midwit but I cant see many books in the genre topping it

[Anonymous No.20557162]

>>20555738
i thing wolfe was good with language but bad with story
his stuff was so tedious, i couldn't finish

[Anonymous No.20557196]

How is he so based?

[Anonymous No.20557560]

>>20555751
>I bade my time
You bided your time, idiot.

[Anonymous No.20558147]

>>20555751
> wench-loving buttkicker who masters sword-fighting
I literally cannot recall him ever once sword-fighting in any of the novels and whoever wrote this is a mentally ill retard

[Anonymous No.20558757]

>>20555751
This post cause a lot of seething.

[Anonymous No.20558873]

I liked it the first book; seemed like a real account of an adventure kinda like LotR. Things happen that don't end up mattering because you just meet random people and random events happens and not every single thing is a masterfully crafted mindheck allegory xerox.

I've been told it becomes things I don't like in books (See: most fantasy), but the first book seemed cool. I'll continue the series at some point. Probably end up reading the first book again because it was so compelling for me, which is rare.

[Anonymous No.20559069]

>>20556856
Meine Freundin ist halb Deutsch und halb Schwarz.

[Anonymous No.20559108]

>>20558873
>Things happen that don't end up mattering
Oh boy.

[Anonymous No.20559169]

>>20559108
>I've been told it becomes things I don't like in books
Yeah that's what I'm afraid of. Every single detail being foreshadowing. As I said,
>I've been told it becomes things I don't like in books
Oh well.

[Anonymous No.20559183]

>>20559069
Es tut mir leid

[Anonymous No.20559292]

>>20555751
I love the Book of the New Sun but J.G. Keely has no equal

[Anonymous No.20559887]

>>20559169
You have to notice it to begin with though, and remember that Severian is writing the book after all the events have taken place.

[Anonymous No.20559906]

>>20559169
It doesn't mean it's foreshadowing. But Severian doesn't write down things that don't matter to the story, he might be omitting some things.

[Anonymous No.20560146]

>>20559183
Nein. Gehts gut.

[Anonymous No.20560149]

Notorious ESL filter

[Anonymous No.20560200]

>>20559292
>J.G. Keely has no equal
He makes wolfefags seethe, so that's nice.

[Anonymous No.20561073]

Wolfe on top as always. Making midwits seethe from beyond the grave.

[Anonymous No.20561149]

>>20561073
Nobody is seething.

[Anonymous No.20561170]

>>20560200
>some insignificant faggot nobody has ever heard of makes everyone seethe
You think very highly of yourself don’t you JG?

[Anonymous No.20561302]

>>20561170
He’s right.

[Anonymous No.20561493]

I love Wolfe. There's not many Authors that make rereads as engaging and fun as him.

[Anonymous No.20561774]

>>20561149
>I'm not mad YOU'RE mad
This is all 4chan discourse summarized into a single sentence.

[Anonymous No.20561782]

>>20561774
Anon, I think you need to take a break from the internet, the mindset you have is really unhealthy.

[Anonymous No.20561801]

>>20555751
>but I didn't find it particularly mysterious or difficult, because all of his words are based on recognizable Germanic or Romantic roots
Wolfe states this was his exact intention during the introduction to Lexicon Urthus. He wanted the vocabulary to feel strange and baroque to the layman while still being perfectly intelligible.

[Anonymous No.20561841]

>>20561782
I agree on taking a break. Maybe for good. I feel like I'm outgrowing 4chan at the very least. I only really visit /lit/ on occasion but even this board seems to mainly exist for intellectual posturing and disingenuous trolling, nobody ever wants to discuss things in good faith on here.

[Anonymous No.20562187]

>>20558147
Severian loses his sword about ten times more often than he actually gets to use it

[Anonymous No.20562188]

>>20555738
I liked Wizard Knightt but dropped the first botns book because I found it garbo

[Anonymous No.20562195]

>>20555751
Rare to see such an effortpost.

[Anonymous No.20562243]

>>20555751
Literally could not give less of shit about Wolfe and you write like a faggot, but I have to commend you for the effortpost. Also:
> I will give his fans one concession: Wolfe is an author who defies expectations. Unfortunately, I was expecting him to be remarkable and interesting.
This was so unfunny I thought this was copied from a Goodreads review,

[Anonymous No.20562245]

>>20562195
>>20562243
it's pasta

[Anonymous No.20562254]

>>20562245
Alright. I return to my original opinion that this board is dead and I will see you all in Hell when we die.

[Anonymous No.20563070]

BoTNS is an autistic STEMtard code monkey's idea of what good literature would be. They become so fascinated with this giant complex puzzle that they forget that this is supposed to be a story and not their modded Factorio playthrough and that any sort of puzzle should be there to service the narrative and not the other way around. Ultimately behind all the dressing the series is just another edgy self-insert power fantasy.

[Anonymous No.20563098]

>>20562187
The only thing I’d change about the series would have been him somehow getting the sword back in the end. He seemed very disheartened when it broke

[Anonymous No.20563125]

>>20555738
lol thats how i felt. then i got it for my brother and he loved it

[Anonymous No.20563445]

>>20563070
>They become so fascinated with this giant complex puzzle that they forget that this is supposed to be a story and not their modded Factorio playthrough
You didn't enjoy the simple character study of a bad man trying to be good?

> the series is just another edgy self-insert power fantasy
Ah, you were filtered. Carry on then.

[Anonymous No.20565031]

>>20563070
That's one layer, same with the unreliable narrator stuff. At the core it's what >>20563445 says.

[Anonymous No.20566418]

>>20563098
Well, he replaces it with that shitty falchion, but he liked the gun from the last two books. Now that I think about it, using a pistol is so unlike what I think of Severian who was hauling an oversized sword for three books.

[Anonymous No.20566719]

I'm almost done with the third book my biggest gripes
1. The MC fucks too much its cringe
2. Some of the conversations are grueling to work through
3. A lot of shit just seems random and pointless

That said it has some incredible moments that were a but mind fucky like the mirror pages

[Anonymous No.20566772]

>>20563445
Character study requires character. Try Triton by Delany if you want a good character study in scifi. Wolfe is a pseud magnet who wrote exactly one worthwhile work (and it's not a novel)

[Anonymous No.20567060]

>>20563098
It's obvious symbolism for the failure of the guild and his abolishment of it. It wouldn't make sense for him to wield a symbol of the guild that he abolished.

Furthermore, it's a representation of the Cross (he shoulders it as a "paterissa," it's a "dark cross on [his] shoulder,") so his reckoning with Baldanders-Lucifer (his falling to the earth with head and shoulders thrown back is an obvious reference) is a perfect scene to depict the failure of Severian's martyrdom, as this is when the sword is broken. He truly bears the sins of the people later as consumes the Autarch's extract, but the symbol of excruciation is no longer needed.

[Anonymous No.20567149]

>>20566772
Nah, you sound like a midwit, no thanks.

[Anonymous No.20567162]

>>20563445
Severian was never a bad person though

[Anonymous No.20567399]

>>20567162
People say this every time and they either didn't read closely enough or are disingenuously asserting that everything Severian did was "based" and I'm really tired of having this same discussion for the umpteenth time.

[Anonymous No.20568087]

>>20555751
>I will give his fans one concession: Wolfe is an author who defies expectations. Unfortunately, I was expecting him to be remarkable and interesting.
based and bluepilled effortpost. I did kek at that line because it reminded me of the Last Jedi movie where they took the good expectations people had and "subverted" them to turn the film into shit

[Anonymous No.20568157]

>>20567399
It's more like he was ignorant of right and wrong for the most part. He's like a child wandering through a strange marketplace.

[Anonymous No.20569160]

>>20568157
Sounds like a lazy cope for bad writing.

[Anonymous No.20569311]

>>20555738
SHUT UP RETURDS ITS HECKIN GOOD >>20555751

[Anonymous No.20569435]

>>20557097
> why do unrealistic things happen in a world where literal gods, magic, plant-men and dragons exist?
Holy shit Lowe is a fucking moron.

[Anonymous No.20569467]

>>20559069
Zeig ihre Titten und Arschfotze

[Anonymous No.20569485]

>>20569435
But he's right though.

[Anonymous No.20570830]

It feels like the journey was good but the main story was a rushed outline. He only spends a few chapters in thrax and the ending just kinda happens.

[Anonymous No.20572223]

>>20570830
Thrax chapters are the ones where Severian starts getting what's coming to him. Everything before that was just a stroll through the countryside. When he gains notoriety in Thrax he becomes a marked man.

[Anonymous No.20572687]

>>20569311
It’s not.

[Anonymous No.20573008]

>>20557055
u r fucking dumb

[Anonymous No.20573022]

>>20573008
He’s a wolfefag

[Anonymous No.20573042]

>>20557159
no you're not the first. I find Severian as a protagonist to be extremely relatable in spite of everything, almost to the point of spiritual. also
>dr talos and baldanders.jpg
kek