Dionysian vs. Apollonian Cultures

[Anonymous No.20539688]

I found a fascinating post the other day:
>>20534998
I want to read more about this balance between Apollonian and Dionysian cultures in practice, along with the drawbacks to this anthropological theory. Is this all Nietzsche in Birth of Tragedy? Or are there more books on this?

[Anonymous No.20539700]

>>20539688
>Apollonian and Dionysian
Not a thing. And pushing the metaphor too far will necessitate that you downplay or suppress important aspects of each culture in order to make them fit your reductive categories. Also they are arbitrary so you could just as well analyze cultures in terms of their Ganeshan and Osiric aspects, which would produce quite worthless analyses.

[Anonymous No.20539723]

>>20539700
Dumb post. You're too caught up in the labels and not the underlying essences that may (or may not!) constitute the human condition.

[Anonymous No.20539730]

>>20539723
>underlying essences
No such thing.

[Anonymous No.20539736]

>>20539730
proof?

[Anonymous No.20539746]

>>20539736
I’m not the one advancing the hypothesis

[Anonymous No.20539763]

>>20539746
you're advancing the hypothesis that no essences exist. that's a positive claim about nonexistence.

[Anonymous No.20540159]

>>20539763
>positive claim about nonexistence
Your brain is non existent

[Anonymous No.20540207]

>>20540159
yes, if you claim that something does not exist anywhere, you have to prove that. which is why most people try to avoid negative claims that cannot be proven mathematically.

example, you claim my brain doesn't exist. yet the fact that I display enough cognitive functions to at least reply back to you is proof that that is false.

[Anonymous No.20540304]

>>20540207
gotem

[Anonymous No.20541467]

bump

[Read Paglia No.20541735]

Read Paglia

[Anonymous No.20542053]

>>20539700
i dunno about Ganeshin, never heard of that, but i have read that Osiris cult is just the Egyptian version of Dionysian.

here's a good article about that:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-gSYCPPKnwzHnEiBndgB-ZPUHXEduOziDoQFhTxSPCs/pub

[Anonymous No.20542064]

>>20539688
Nietzsche i think is the first to use that terminology (Dionysian and Apollonian), but he's definitely not alone in dividing cultures in such a fashion.
Spengler did, Gebser did, though they don't use the same terminology, and of course there are differences, but the idea itself is the same.

[Anonymous No.20542068]

>>20539763
good luck getting low iq to see that "advancing a negative is still a positive claim"

it's impossible, trust me, i've had this debate so many times. Just ignore them.

[Anonymous No.20542093]

SEXUAL PERSONAE - a little long winded and the author is a femcel/dyke/tranny but cool book!

[Anonymous No.20542201]

>>20542053
Joseph Campbell and Frazer ("Golden Bough") both provide evidence that Dionysus is just the Greek version of the Egyptian Osiris myths. Same as Tammuz, Adonis, etc.

(and as many others have noted, those Osiris myths have some similarities to the Jesus story in the New Testament and associated traditions: dying and coming back to life, evergreen tree being used in Christmas celebration (during winter), turning water into wine, walking on water, etc.

[Anonymous No.20542221]

>>20542201
Pagilla has interesting take on Egyptian culture, achieved a balance between apollinian (monolyths, pyramids, form, straight lines, order, heirarchy) and dionysian (earth cult, chimeras, animal gods, river worship, "mysteries" that allegedly had some origin there). This balance went along with a very durable culture.

[Anonymous No.20542323]

>>20542221
i dunno if anyone else has talked about it (prolly), but the Seth and Osiris story could be a retelling of the Enlil and Enki story, or Dionysian/Apollonian.
So when the Hyksos invaded Egypt, they were not culturally advanced, they were warriors, culturally backwards (hence why their kingdom in Egypt didn't last that long), and chose Seth out of the Egyptian pantheon to worship, in opposition to the previous Osiris worshiping dynasty.
True, Enlil is viewed as a god of justice, viewed as "holy", (holier than Enki at least), and Seth is viewed as a god of chaos, a desert demon, but he's also a god of storms, just as Enlil is. Enlil, like Seth, came to represent the foreigner, especially the foreign warrior, while Enki (and Osiris) came to represent the city culture of the natives.
So for example, in the Sumerian Flood myths, it was Enlil that wanted to annihilate the city people, and Enki who saved a group of humanity, just as in Hebrew retelling of this myth (that they stole from the Sumerians, no biggie) it was Yahweh who mimics Enlil in wanting humanity destroyed, but then also assumes the role of Enki by saving Noah from the Flood.
I don't know if there's an Egyptian "Flood" myth, my egyptian myth knowledge is lacking compared to Greeks (Deucalion Flood) and Sumerian myths.
Enlil has a sort of "rural" aspect to him, as opposed to the city aspect of Enki (who is a master of trade, which is more a function of cities). Enki is the Magician god, while Enlil is the warrior god.
and the desert often held nomads, which could be the clue to Set. As i mentioned earlier, Set commanded storms (like Enlil), comes from the outer desert (rural, nomadic warrior folk, not traders or cultured city mages).

[Anonymous No.20542329]

>>20542323
woops, meant "Set and Osiris".

[Anonymous No.20542500]

>>20542323
to expand on this a little, Apollo (i.e. Zeus) represents the warrior patriarchal culture, just as Enlil and Set do.
And Dionysus, while a son of Zeus, has a weird birth that originally was born from Persephone, a chthonic goddess, wife of Hades. Dionysus (an underworld deity) is linked to Osiris (also an underworld deity), and they in turn are linked to Enki (the god of the abyss, i.e. the underworld).

In terms of the Apollonian/Dionysian dichotomy, Apollonian (Zeus, Enlil, Set) are warrior cultures, often associated with storms ("a storm is coming" is euphemistic for violence)
Dionysian (Demeter/Hades, Enki, Osiris) are associated with wealth and decadence and matriarchal cultures (and often viewed as degenerate and evil by patriarchal cultures).

Osiris, Dionysus, Enki often have a female counterpart (Isis, Ishtar, can't think of the greek one, maybe that woman dionysus married? or maybe his mother?)

[Anonymous No.20542676]

>>20542500
i wonder if the underworld is euphemism for criminal "underworld"? cause cities definitely have that going on

[Anonymous No.20542719]

>>20539700
Back to to the ANALytic castration dungeon, retard. This thread is for continental chads.

[Anonymous No.20542759]

>>20542323
>I don't know if there's an Egyptian "Flood" myth
According to Plato, there were multiple, the Egyptian priest apparently told Critias's father about all the different floods and calamities that had already happened in the past (Greece being a "young nation" in comparison to Egypt).
>The flood myth in Egyptian mythology involves the god Ra and his daughter Sekhmet. Ra sent Sekhmet to destroy part of humanity for their disrespect and unfaithfulness which resulted in a great flood of blood. However, Ra intervened by getting her drunk and causing her to pass out.

[Anonymous No.20542798]

>>20542759
iirc Ra is a later Egyptian deity? I know he's associated with the Sun, which is usually a sign of patriarchal warrior culture (as opposed to chthonic city culture).
Ra sounds like Enlil in this case. The part about Sekhmet getting drunk (and thus humanity is saved) has some definite Dionysian vibes going on, as well as Enki vibes (saving a humanity, or at least a remnant).

the great "flood" of blood is euphemism for violence. Invasion from foreigners, of a foreign patriarchal warrior culture against the native matriarchal un-warlike culture.

[Anonymous No.20542909]

>>20542798
so i'm reading up on Sekhmet and she sounds like a female version of Apollo. Both are deities of healing, both associated with warrior culture (Apollo with Zeus, Sekhmet with Ra, both Sun deities)

>During an annual festival held at the beginning of the year, a festival of intoxication, the Egyptians danced and played music to soothe the wildness of the goddess and drank great quantities of wine ritually to imitate the extreme drunkenness that stopped the wrath of the goddess
this sounds like a tradition begun by the conquered matriarchal culture and how they try to appease and soften the conqueror warrior foreigners, to stop their killing spree.

[Anonymous No.20542950]

>>20542500
there seems to be a lot of this "foreign warrior invaders having a blood spree in the decadent matriarchal city" motif in the Bible too. It talks about how God basically allowed the Jews to lose in battle, to be captured and sent to Babylon, etc, as punishment for their wicked ways.
And Hebrews were originally a warrior culture (nomads with their flocks, who only later invaded Canaan and settled down in the cities), so this ties them (at least originally) to Enlil, though later they become more decadent and Enki worshiping (worship of the golden calf, etc.).

That essay i linked earlier >>20542053
talks about how the Israelites, after they settled in Canaan, began to adopt Osiris cult and other Canaanite matriarchal traditions, which was opposed by the conservatives in the rural regions (even causing a short-lived coup by King David's son, Absalom)

The essay basically provides lots of detailed examples of how the King David chapters mimic the Greek myth of King Cadmus of Thebes, which talks a lot about Dionysus. Cadmus was abandoning the patriarchal tradition/religion and welcoming the Dionysian priests, his son Pentheus is upset by that, stages a coup against his father.

But whereas in the Cadmus myth Dionysus is explicitly stated, in the David chapters of Old Testament, Osiris is never exactly mentioned. But David's behavior when the Ark (of Osiris, i.e. Osiris' evergreen "coffin" that he was buried inside of) is brought in from Philistine or Egypt where it had been "lost", and David starts dancing at its arrival in his underwear (possibly nude, there's debate on that), which pisses off his conservative wife who refuses to have sex with him after that (OT states she bore no children, which sounds like marital issues).

Essay does a better job explaining, i'm just trying to summarize it.