/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20490740]

To date, not a single person has come up with a compelling, rational, and justifiable response to these questions.

[Anonymous No.20490755]

Zoomers were right. Sometimes it's enough to just say "Bruh."

[Anonymous No.20490757]

>>20490740
Ngl tho he low key spittin fax tho

[Anonymous No.20490761]

>>20490740
Why does it have to mean something at all? Also if a text can be interpreted in so many different ways that just proves the true genius of it

[Anonymous No.20490784]

it amazes me how autistic and lacking in humanity anglos are

[Anonymous No.20490794]

>>20490740
It's an allegory for how the modern world has destroyed traditional family dynamics.
Also, this guy sounds like he's too dumb to even read a page of a Rowling novel, let alone Kafka.
Check em.

[Anonymous No.20490795]

>>20490784
It's not anglos. It's reddit gaytheists.

[Anonymous No.20490806]

impressive. he's supposed to be a thinker.

[Anonymous No.20490808]

>>20490795
>it's not anglos
>proceeds to describe the anglos

[Anonymous No.20490859]

>>20490740
That tweet is retarded but it's also incredibly strange how Kafka got so big. There's a reason he thought they weren't good enough to be published. There are at least 100+ symbolist works that came before him and did it better. it's very weird that people coined the word Kafkaesque when Kafka was just writing his own version of symbolist works that dominated literature during his lifetime.

My personal favorites being The Book of Monelle by Marcel Schwob and Others Paradise by Paul Leppin.

[Anonymous No.20490921]

>>20490859
He was (one of) the first to specifically write about the soul crushing drudgeries of modernity, bureaucracy, white collar work and so on, which all exponentially increased in scope after his passing. So his works are also heavily prescient of the coming 20th century. Never really thought of him as a symbolist although I guess it makes sense. One of my personal favorites is Gustav Meyrink if he counts.

[Sage No.20490952]

>>20490740
Dawkins is just an illiterate asshole. We'll be better off when he's dead.

[Anonymous No.20491173]

>>20490740
>there needs to be a simple verbal explanation for why you like that piece of art
Since when? It's a surreal short story about a guy who turns into a bug. If Kafka wanted to say "feminism" or "fuck your mum" he'd have done so. It's obviously not SF and that Dawkins would even list that as a possibility worth dismissing reveals him as a deliberate imbecile.

[Anonymous No.20491744]

>>20490740
Dawkins literally has the mental maturity of a spergy 15-year-old and it's genuinely astounding that it took people like two decades to just now figure it out

He's living proof that you can be hyperspecialized in some specific academic field while still fundamentally being a complete buffoon

[Anonymous No.20491749]

>>20490806
He's not that dumb, this is just what happens when you make denying God a part of your identity, you lose a piece of your soul that longs for spirituality beyond the material world

[Anonymous No.20491754]

>>20491749
And when u say "not that dumb" I mean he's a midwit, but even midwits with soul can understand Kafka

[Anonymous No.20491906]

>>20490740
Answer in short: Metamorphosis is a) an allegory for existential dread and also b) a fictional tale you can take at face-value. The protagonist is in a nightmarish situation which still is a wishful-thinking fantasy, because being a bug is both better and worse than wage-slaving. And then it's also hilarious like a ridiculously silly dark comedy.

[Anonymous No.20491919]

>>20490740
He was BTFO ages ago on /lit/.
Lurk more, newfag.

[Anonymous No.20491940]

>>20490740
Literally everything that Dawkins has ever written is worthless and retarded. Talk about Emperor's clothes

[Anonymous No.20491950]

>>20491940
He's wearing invisible selfish jeans.

[Anonymous No.20492569]

It’s about the proletariat condition

[Anonymous No.20492643]

>>20490921
He wasn't one of the first though. He wasnt even in first thousand. Paul Leppin did it 20 years earlier in the story collection I just mentioned. Kafka was just an out of date meme. Gustav Meyrink is amazing.

[Anonymous No.20492664]

>>20490761
>Also if a text can be interpreted in so many different ways that just proves the true genius of it
Truly the most stupid thing one can say about literature.

[Anonymous No.20492671]

>>20490740
>literature is bad if I can't derive a clear interpretation from it
>ambiguity is bad
>also ignore style, prose, literary texture

[Anonymous No.20492676]

>>20490808
Was thinking the same thing

[Anonymous No.20492701]

>>20490808
Most Americans are Christian.
>inb4 anglo means BRITISH
No it doesn't. It refers to native english speakers.

[Anonymous No.20492844]

>>20490740
This guy has never eaten a refreshing apple

[Anonymous No.20492850]

>>20490740
It's a major work of literature because gregor is literally me fr

[Anonymous No.20492891]

>>20490740
>be Kafkaesque
>evade final interpretations
>leave readers in your maze forever
>filter midwits by psychoanalyzing a whole century
nothing personal, Richie

[Anonymous No.20492903]

>>20492664
The fact you could come up with such a far fetched interpretation of than anon's message proves his true genius

[Anonymous No.20492914]

>>20490740
Not every argument deserves a response. Especially one on Twitter. That's the thing about the 'not an argument' pseuds. They feel entitled to engagement.

[Anonymous No.20492922]

>>20490740
Because the questions are in bad faith, I have a new respect for the guy though, this tweet is brilliant. He's bragging about how he has never been a lowly drone in a company, he has never felt like a worthless employee because he's always been Richard fucking Dawkins, he's also implying that he's never felt like a burden on anyone, he's never felt like he's been ostracized or treated differently. He's basically through the most round about way possible saying that he's always been an alpha chad his entire life which is why he can't even possibly see what kind of pathetic existence Gregor Samsa is meant to have.
Then, as if that isn't enough, he's just ripping into the entire literature field for fun, making himself out as some enlightened contrarian - the one man who can see in his words that the Emperor has no clothes.
It's like when Trump said "I got a small loan of a million dollars" and everyone sperged out and called him an idiot, meanwhile the intended subtext: "I am rich, I will always be rich, I will always be richer than you" meant that the very people who were trying to dab on him were spreading his message.
Does he have any other humblebrags like this?

[Anonymous No.20492924]

>>20490740
aminal farm good because pig stalin, metromonopolis bad because bug what??? if bug jews and apple gas chambers would be good literary, but not!! EXPLIAN

[Anonymous No.20492943]

I don't like it either. Hunger Artist is his masterpiece.

[Anonymous No.20492962]

>>20492924
I really really like this post.

[Anonymous No.20492991]

>>20490859
>(((Strange)))

It's called Jewish control of media.

[Anonymous No.20493001]

>>20492701
No, anglo is definitely not short for anglophone.
It refers to the ethic group.

[Anonymous No.20493003]

>>20490740
test

[Anonymous No.20493030]

>>20490859
>it's very weird that people coined the word Kafkaesque when Kafka was just writing his own version of symbolist works that dominated literature during his lifetime.
I've never thought of 'Kafkaesque' as having anything to do with his writing style. I've only used it to refer to the sort of absurdist bureaucracy he depicted in the Trial.

[Anonymous No.20493084]

Because it's not identifiable to a certain genre or a literary technique it's not good? This is why an overemphasis on symbolism and analysis creates bad readers. Anything that can't be nailed down to a distilled message breaks their brain.

[Anonymous No.20493121]

>>20492922
>Does he have any other humblebrags like this?

[Anonymous No.20493203]

>>20490740
there is enought written about it, maybe you are simply to stupid

[Anonymous No.20493428]

>>20490859
>There are at least 100+ symbolist works that came before him and did it better
name 10

[Anonymous No.20493443]

>>20490740
Dawkins can't into surrealism.

[Anonymous No.20493447]

>>20491950
Underrated comment. Your talents are wasted here.

[Anonymous No.20493448]

>>20490740
Kafka's metamorfoses is about being a Jew.

[Anonymous No.20493453]

>>20493030
That's what it is (along with The Penal Colony). Some authors just pinpoint a certain aspect of the human condition so well that their name becomes an adjective for all future examples of the same, Ballardian is another comparable one

[Anonymous No.20493457]

>>20490859
>it's also incredibly strange how Kafka got so big.
The religion of the jew is showbizz.

[Anonymous No.20493458]

>>20490859
>it's very weird that people coined the word Kafkaesque when Kafka was just writing his own version of symbolist works that dominated literature during his lifetime.
oh, your retarded

[Anonymous No.20493459]

>>20493121
>Why yes, my name is literally "Dick" and I find it hard to breath because I'm drowning in pussy, how could you tell?

[Anonymous No.20493562]

>>20493001
that is narrow definition, an inter-anglo label in which they rank themselves in order of how anglo they are, anglo being invaders of britain from 5-6th century and their descendants
anglo > whites > non-whites

However to the rest they are all anglos, same soulless drek, especially if suffering from being monolingual

[Anonymous No.20493570]

>>20490740
if you don't like the metamorphosis as an adult it's because you've never worked a real job in your life

[Anonymous No.20493618]

>>20491950
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Anonymous No.20493642]

>>20490740
>To date, not a single person has come up with a compelling, rational, and justifiable response to these questions.

What you really mean is you don't understand any and are too dumb to read the book yourself.

[Anonymous No.20493653]

>>20490740

>>20491906
>Answer in short: Metamorphosis is a) an allegory for existential dread and also b) a fictional tale you can take at face-value. The protagonist is in a nightmarish situation which still is a wishful-thinking fantasy, because being a bug is both better and worse than wage-slaving. And then it's also hilarious like a ridiculously silly dark comedy.

Op, did you understand that you midwit?

[Anonymous No.20493869]

>>20492991
>>20493457
Go back.

[Anonymous No.20494243]

>>20493001
No it doesn't.
Just like Francophone doesn't refer to a specific ethnic group.

[Anonymous No.20494551]

>>20490784
some of them aren't but their gifts are spit on and rejected by anglo culture from youth so they end up uneducated and resentful

[Anonymous No.20494609]

Did anyone ever write less sad versions of the story? I'd make one where Gregor isn't injured, and gets a pencil and paper to write messages so he can communicate, which humanizes him more in the eyes of his parents. Eventually he's writing columns for a local newspaper about his life. This way he ends up getting a cute autistic entomologist gf who actually finds him attractive and takes him in (in more ways than one)

[Anonymous No.20494961]

>The Emperor—so they say—has sent a message, directly from his death bed, to you alone, his pathetic subject, a tiny shadow which has taken refuge at the furthest distance from the imperial sun. He ordered the herald to kneel down beside his bed and whispered the message in his ear. He thought it was so important that he had the herald speak it back to him. He confirmed the accuracy of verbal message by nodding his head. And in front of the entire crowd of those witnessing his death—all the obstructing walls have been broken down, and all the great ones of his empire are standing in a circle on the broad and high soaring flights of stairs—in front of all of them he dispatched his herald. The messenger started off at once, a powerful, tireless man. Sticking one arm out and then another, he makes his way through the crowd. If he runs into resistance, he points to his breast where there is a sign of the sun. So he moves forwards easily, unlike anyone else. But the crowd is so huge; its dwelling places are infinite. If there were an open field, how he would fly along, and soon you would hear the marvellous pounding of his fist on your door. But instead of that, how futile are all his efforts. He is still forcing his way through the private rooms of the innermost palace. Never will he win his way through. And if he did manage that, nothing would have been achieved. He would have to fight his way down the steps, and, if he managed to do that, nothing would have been achieved. He would have to stride through the courtyards, and after the courtyards through the second palace encircling the first, and, then again, through stairs and courtyards, and then, once again, a palace, and so on for thousands of years. And if he finally burst through the outermost door—but that can never, never happen—the royal capital city, the centre of the world, is still there in front of him, piled high and full of sediment. No one pushes his way through here, certainly not someone with a message from a dead man. But you sit at your window and dream of that message when evening comes.

[Anonymous No.20494975]

>>20490740
AAAAAARGH I HATE SYMBOLISM!
I HATE ALLEGORY
I HATE METAPHORS

JUST WRITE A SELF-CONTAINED STORY THAT CAN SUPPORT ITSELF WITH ITS OWN INTERNAL LOGIC AND BECOME COMPELLING TO ME
I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR GAY MESSAGE ABOUT REAL LIFE POLITICS

[Anonymous No.20494980]

>>20494975

I love this fucking man.

[Anonymous No.20494981]

>>20494975
This but unironically. Most symbolism eventually reaches the point of meaninglessness anyway.

[Anonymous No.20494985]

>>20494981
I WAS NOT IRONIC
THESE ARE MY GENUINE BELIEFS

[Anonymous No.20495084]

>>20494975
but that story is not self-contained and the logic is not internal. you need to know what a fish is and how fishing works to even begin to understand the events. the letters f i s h are already a symbol that you need to refer to external knowledge to decode. "the fish is a fish" is literally "symbolism."

[Anonymous No.20495096]

>>20495084
Your post is the perfect charicature of mid-witticism.

[Anonymous No.20495111]

>>20495096
why?

[Anonymous No.20495164]

>>20490740
As a scientist you would think he has more reverence for the majority opinion of the experts of a field. Especially when he’s a pseud philosopher.

[Anonymous No.20495178]

>>20491950
Honorary dubs.

[Anonymous No.20495193]

>>20490740
Dawkins is an idiot and incapable of understanding art; however, he is on the money here: Kafka is trash. If you want a good book about the same theme, read Ovid. You might get something out of it if you're a careful reader. Kafka had nothing to impart and is not canon.

[Anonymous No.20495205]

>>20495084
>>20495111
Your post is literally the kind of thing your average community college professor would say at philosophy 101

[Anonymous No.20495219]

>>20494975
>>20494980
>>20494981
French symbolism was based. Hemingway was hylic scum. Read Swedenborg for the theory of the Correspondences, then read the great Symbolist works. A major criterion for having a soul is being able to identify and understand symbols; hence, why the reading of religious/mythological works should be left to only the brightest. Otherwise we just get tards with shit psychological explanations for everything. Also, Kafka isn't symbolism.

[Anonymous No.20495239]

>>20495205
what's wrong with learning the basics of philosophy?

[Anonymous No.20495263]

Richard Dawkins is a fucking retard. I liked Selfish Gene, but he's an asshole and up his own at that. The last time I was at a used book store, I saw a copy of The God Delusion in the clearance section, and I was tempted to buy it just to go home and burn it.

[Anonymous No.20495303]

>>20495239
nothing but you came to the one board on this site that'd make fun of you for being a noob about this stuff

[Anonymous No.20495333]

>>20495111
You simply didn't understand the point of his post, or the meaning of symbolism in that context. You got stuck inside a level of pre-programmed abstraction.

[Anonymous No.20495338]

>>20490740
This can’t be real. I can’t believe he can be this retarded.

[Anonymous No.20495517]

>>20495164
If you just respect majority opinion as some kind of gospel then you are a teacher at best, not an actual scientist.

[Anonymous No.20495605]

>>20491950
Le kek

[Anonymous No.20495620]

>>20494975
He isn't saying that symbolism is shit you fucking retard. He's saying that the symbolism people keep seeing in the old man in the sea isn't real.
Develop basic reading comprehension

>>20495219
based

[Anonymous No.20495627]

>>20490740
It's clearly an exploration of the dissociative and alienating aspects of modernity?

[Anonymous No.20495648]

>>20495219
What the fuck are “the great symbolist works”

[Anonymous No.20496102]

>>20490740
dawkins is a fucking retard

[Anonymous No.20496191]

>>20495648
Bruges le mort and dats it mayne.

[Anonymous No.20496383]

>>20493428
I'll do you one better. Here are numerous collections of works that Kafka was clearly heavily emulating. Mostly from the decadent movement. His focus on Bureaucracy was to an extent a small departure of the specifics which fin-de-siècle works focused on but certainly not enough to call it a whole new style.
https://www.snugglybooks.co.uk
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheApachacha/videos
http://www.dedalusbooks.com/our-books/book.php?id=00000055&srch=decadent

Again Decadent/Weird/Symbolist works dominated Kafka's early life and its clear he didn't find his own symbolist pieces to compare well to his forefathers works. Something I agree whole-heartedly with. His works aren't even in my top 10.
Meyrink
Schwob
Lorrain
Bierbaum
Guido Gozzano
to name a few off the top of my head
and near countless others wrote remarkably stylistically similar yet utterly forgotten stuff to Kafka decades earlier. It's no surprise the canonically obsessed /lit/ is only aware of Kafka.

[Anonymous No.20496393]

>>20495219
>Kafka isn't symbolism.
the Metamorphosis is a literal textbook Symbolist piece. da fuq?

[Anonymous No.20496402]

>>20496393
Symbolism was a late 19th century movement mostly occurring in France, retard. Just because something has an allegory in it doesn't mean it is a symbolist work. Symbolism was finished decades before Kafka wrote his gay little novella.

[Anonymous No.20496403]

>>20495648
The Book of Monelle by Marcel Schwob was described as "The Bible of French Symbolism". It's also the best book I've ever read. I've been shilling it on here for going on like 5 years now though and never seen any discussion of it besides once in a blue moon someone agreeing with me about how great it is. It's dramatically more obtuse than Kafka though so its probably above the average /lit/ users ability to comprehend.

[Anonymous No.20496406]

>>20495648
>What the fuck are “the great symbolist works”
The works of Rimbaud, Verlaine, Mallarmé, Valéry, Laforgue, Lautréamont, etc.

[Anonymous No.20496419]

>>20496402
I fucking knew it. You unironically think symbolist works are limited to a time period. You're a retarded pseud. Symbolist works have continued being written to this day you brain dead reject.

[Anonymous No.20496457]

>>20496419
Yes, it began with Baudelaire and died with Valéry. You're a retard if you think imitation works that came afterwards have anything to do with the actual movement. Symbolism was mostly a French movement spawned from Swedenborg's mystical writings. Everything outside its historical lifespan, while it might be influenced by symbolism, is NOT symbolism. Just like if you write a pastiche of Wordsworth, doesn't make you a fucking romantic. That movement is done, and you'd be nothing more than larping.

[Anonymous No.20496459]

>>20493121
This is a real tweet. I am in disbelief.

[Anonymous No.20496486]

I'm not sure about Metamorphosis but The Trial is amazing. Yesterday I was walking around in an office at my new job and a security guard stopped me to ask what I was looking for. It hit me how weird this all was: Being in a multi-story office hundreds of miles from home with long, winding hallways, and the only reason I "belong" there is because I gave my résumé to a woman at a separate place hundreds of miles away 8 months ago and exchanged some emails.

It's impossible to convey well but it's that feeling of, "Do I belong here? Really?" that Kafka captures so well. Modern life is so unusual when you think about it.

[Anonymous No.20496566]

>>20493869
You asked the question, and I gave you the right answer. Got a better one?

[Anonymous No.20496580]

>>20494961
Interesting story anon, where is it from?

[Anonymous No.20496835]

>>20495239
I thought what you said was pretty cool and a nice contribution anon don't let the spiteful nerds get you down

[Anonymous No.20496852]

>>20496486
Good post.

I read Kafka's famous texts years ago now and remember having similar thoughts with the trial but not so much the metamorphosis. I think I'll read it again

[Anonymous No.20496929]

>>20490740
>dawkins
>too dumb to understand literary merit
>too dumb to believe in God
this poor guy

[Anonymous No.20497133]

>>20491950
King of /lit/

[Anonymous No.20497628]

>>20490740
Zoomers were right. Sometimes it's enough to just say "Bruh."

[Anonymous No.20497882]

>>20496457
I'm genuinely flabbergasted that someone can be this retardedly obtuse. Yes movements can be assigned to time periods, no that does not mean that works akin to those movements can only exist within that timespan. What an absolutely autistic take. Look at how many Decadence movements there have been for yet another obvious example of why you're wrong. See pic related. Movements arise from the societies around them. Turns out sometimes societies have similar milieus arise despite being separated by long stretches of time. WHO COULD HAVE IMAGINED THAT. History moves in cycles duh..

see pic related

[Anonymous No.20497885]

>>20497882
huh

[Anonymous No.20498525]

>>20493453
Maybe Baudrillardesque?

[Anonymous No.20498546]

>>20491950
nice

[Anonymous No.20498582]

>>20496580
"A Message From the Emperor" also by Kafka

[Anonymous No.20499153]

>>20497882
Some autistic pastiches decades after a movement is dead do not constitute an actual continuation of a movement but rather symbolize its death. Decadentism was even more short-lived than symbolism, both of them were primarily French in spirit and anglos could never.

[Anonymous No.20499239]

>>20499153
>both of them were primarily French in spirit and anglos could never.
And yet neither would exist without Edgar Allan Poe...

[Anonymous No.20499245]

>>20495219
Symbolism is just memes. It used to be based when the memes were organic and emerged slowly out of the unconscious through dreams and idle pattern recognition of the natural environment. At some indiscernible point in societal evolution artificial memes started cropping up leading to propaganda and advertising as their eventual end product. Man's symbolic language diverged from the organic substrate because of the inorganic forced memes. The subject of interest went from the natural environment to the goals and distortions of powerful individual humans leveraging their authority to infuse bloodless symbolism with pretend meaning. Nowadays this bloodless symbolism is almost all we have left as millions of advertising bots scream out in unison its morbin time and yokels parrot back the meaningless chatter.

[Anonymous No.20499250]

>>20499239
Poe was spiritually continental. Even his politics showed a reactionary European tinge. He was anti-American in more ways than one, and this is why he was one of the only good American writers. He wrote from a European core.

[Anonymous No.20499256]

>>20495164
What covid vaccine number are you on? Trusting the majority of experts only works if you live in a society that values truth over power. No such human society has ever or will ever exist because truth is anti paired with exploitation.

[Anonymous No.20499259]

>>20499245
You don't know what "Symbolism" means. You're totally taking it out of its historic context and turning it into some gay shit about semiotics. Read Swedenborg and then Baudelaire to understand symbolism. It was a spiritually-motivated art movement that had nothing to do with the retarded psychological and scientific gesturings that you're making.

[Anonymous No.20499314]

>>20499250
I assume the other ones you consider good are Lovecraft and Ligotti who are also as un-American in their style as they come

[Anonymous No.20499346]

>>20499314
Haven't read them. I don't really bother with much American literature. Pound's early works were good. Longfellow was good, though he was more American in general. America is overrated literarily. Lot of trash hippie shit and corn-people garbage.