/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20464355]

Whats the thing about haiku? The few I've read seem to me too simple and basic to be considered worthy of merit. Am I an illiterate fag?

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20464399]

You’re coming at it with the wrong perspective. It’s our western aesthetic sensibility to want to shove in the short amount of syllables all that we can, whereas the actual haiku aesthetic is based on capturing a very subtle phenomena and experience, that at once communicate subtly, a relation between object and subject and most importantly transience.

So the haiku has to feel empty to imply the passing nature of things, because it’s based not in bright color or powerful harsh image but instead on much more subtle things such as a green leaf’s change of color, seeking out much isn’t appropriate.

Now you can simply dislike this style and there’s nothing wrong with that, but there is skill and mastery levels in this.

Example.


From time to time
The clouds give rest
To the moon-beholders.

(Note, Japanese doesn’t even count syllables so the 5-7-5 law is more us coping with not using the same metric system, so it’s fine to use similar short form, but there’s even authors who have incorporated the haiku style into long form prose.)

The first line puts our focus on time and on a passing event, the second line points to a natural object the clouds, themselves a symbol of transience, ever moving and changing, and in the third line the object fixation is transformed into the relation of an object in relation to a subject, the objects being the moon and cloud, the subject being the humans, the moon itself is a symbol of transience due to it having differing phases, thus the passing clouds, for a short amount of time covering the changing moon obscuring and for a time changing the perception of a human.

Basically every single syllable was used to amplify the imagery and conception of change, transience and ended perfectly in the relation of man to nature. That is why basho is a master of the haiku.

[Anonymous No.20465030]

Bumping with a haiku

in my bed at night,
after the long summer day,
i hear the silence.

[Anonymous No.20465082]

>>20464355
I've had nearly 100 haiku published in magazines like Modern Haiku and Frogpond Journal. I've got a collection coming out soon, actually. The haiku you read in translation aren't stylistically similar at all to the ones we write today, but the spirit is the same. Can't remember if it was Blythe who said this, but it's easiest to appreciate a haiku as a jumping-off point for further aesthetic or philosophical consideration.

[Anonymous No.20465093]

>>20464399
>Note, Japanese doesn’t even count syllables so the 5-7-5 law is more us coping with not using the same metric system, so it’s fine to use similar short form, but there’s even authors who have incorporated the haiku style into long form prose.
Morae are counted in haiku, and renga was the progenitor from which haiku was derived.

God, I fucking hate you.

[Frater asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20465135]

>>20465093
Morae aren’t syllables and in Japanese there’s a whole tradition of free verse haiku. Nippon has 4 morae not 2. I also never spoke of the origin of haiku, simply that there are prose styles based on it.

[Anonymous No.20465273]

>>20465093
For once he made a good post, give him a break.

[Anonymous No.20466829]

>>20465135
>Morae aren’t syllables and in Japanese there’s a whole tradition of free verse haiku.
I never said they were syllables, but that its misleading to act as though there isn't some form of linguistic counting going on in Japanese poetry, and even then, morae are still counted, be it haiku, tanka, renga, or haikai. It isnt in any way shape or form some sort of translation issue like you imply. If you want to say there's free form that doesn't stick to traditional morae count, fine, cool, but you're being misleading and obtuse if you're going to state that its not done at all.

奥山に O|ku|ya|ma | ni 5
紅葉ふみわけ Mo|mi|ji| fu|mi|wa|ke 7
鳴く鹿の Na|ku shi|ka |no 5
声きく時ぞ Ko|e ki|ku to|ki |zo 7
秋は悲しき A|ki wa ka|na shi|ki 7

>I also never spoke of the origin of haiku, simply that there are prose styles based on it.
Which is wrong, and my point, nigger; haikus are based on the longer from, not the other way around. It's flat out incorrect to say that a derivative form is what the seminal form is based on.

>>20465273
No.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20466860]

>>20466829
>I never said they were syllables, but that its misleading to act as though there isn't some form of linguistic counting going on in Japanese poetry,

That’s you misreading, nigger, for as I say in the post.


> is more us coping with not using the same metric system,

For the morae are not syllables and this is in reference to the English practice of counting 17 syllables of which is not the native mode to Japanese, of which we do not replicate, of which is alluded to by the Reference of Japanese using different meter.

>and even then, morae are still counted, be it haiku, tanka, renga, or haikai. It isnt in any way shape or form some sort of translation issue like you imply.

The use of 17 syllables is 100% a translation issue, nippon is 4 morae not 2.

>haikus are based on the longer from, not the other way around.

Nigger renga is still a verse form and the influence of haiku on prose in particular was the point, there was no reference to the origin of the haiku being a longer verse form but rather that there exists prose which apes the aesthetics and modes of haiku which are fully in long form prose, there are also singular line haiku with no counting of morae whatsoever and have been for a good number of years.

[Anonymous No.20467050]

>>20466860
God, i hope you kill yourself. Go read the whichever part of Man'yōshū you want, count out the morae, and then come back.

>The use of 17 syllables is 100% a translation issue, nippon is 4 morae not 2.
I dont know what you're bleeting about, but you can look at my example, and unless you're retarded, you can count out every single sound unit in the poem.

>...rather that there exists prose which apes the aesthetics and modes of haiku which are fully in long form prose
Again, there's both prose and verse that are the parent forms, i dont know why this is so hard for you to comprehend. Newer forms weren't "developed", moreso they were a return to tradition.

I feel sorry for any Anon that you attempt to "help"