/lit/ reads Joyce: Dubliners, A Portrait, Ulysses

[Anonymous No.20449136]

May 21 to June 4: Dubliners
June 5 to June 14: A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
June 16: Ulysses

>Dubliners
https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/2814
https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/james-joyce/dubliners
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dubliners
https://www.archive.org/details/dubliners00joycuoft
>A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4217/
https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/james-joyce/a-portrait-of-the-artist-as-a-young-man

>Ulysses
https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/4300/
https://www.joyceproject.com/
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ulysses_(1922)
https://www.ulyssesguide.com

We operate according to UTC!

Last thread: >>20388908

[Anonymous No.20449145]

Timetable for Dubliners
May 31: A Painful Case
June 1: Ivy Day in the Committee Room
June 2: A Mother
June 3: Grace
June 4: The Dead

[Anonymous No.20449147]

*fart* Nora's fanny blesses this thread *fart*

[Anonymous No.20449211]

>>20449147
i wonder how joyce would feel if he read this particular sentence

[Anonymous No.20449236]

Thanks for the new thread OP.
Just finished Clay and liked it. Not my favorite, but it was nice to see such a heartwarming picture of Halloween. I liked the little imperfections that happen throughout the day as well. Keeps it from feeling too sentimental.
>>20444066
Yeah, and it's especially harsh in this story. Poor kid.
>>20444474
If the relationship is that good nowadays (as likely the threads' only Irishman, I'll take you word that it is) then that makes the story all the nicer.
>>20445384
>very comforting
Yeah, even if there's not as much to talk about it's wonderful to see a more hopeful depiction of Ireland. Imagine this would be a lot of fun to read around Halloween.

[Anonymous No.20449310]

>>20449136
>>Dubliners
>https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/2814
>https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/james-joyce/dubliners
>https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dubliners
>https://www.archive.org/details/dubliners00joycuoft
>>A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
>https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4217/
>https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/james-joyce/a-portrait-of-the-artist-as-a-young-man
>>Ulysses
>https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/4300/
for me, it's reading james joyce on 26reads
https://www.26reads.com/library/31156-dubliners
https://www.26reads.com/author/james-joyce

[Anonymous No.20449382]

>>20449310
thanks, anon! will add these next thread.

[Anonymous No.20449740]

does anyone here know about any artists who influenced/were influenced by joyce? i'd like to know who joyce liked, and, if possible, who he disliked.

[Anonymous No.20449894]

>A Painful Case
Great story, the lonely man who reads Nietzsche and self-sabotages his only chance for love? Who on /lit/ could possibly relate to such a niche concept!?
I do enjoy what this story shows us; Mr. Duffy is basically the antithesis of what Nietzsche preaches: Be bold, become your true self etc. His passivity and fear has condemned him to be alone and he only realises it when its too late, much like William Stoner now that I think of it. The guilt he feels over the death of Mrs. Sinaco is indicating of his character, he's a good man at heart, he's not bitter and cruel like Farrington was in Counterparts and even worse he's alone while Farrington has a wife and child; a cruel irony there and a smart choice to have those stories so close together with a very positive and social environment in Clay being the buffer. Joyce is warning us here of being passive, of paralysing ourselves due to fear and supressing what our heart yearns for. Joyce was a risktaker and he's advocating for everybody to be like that.

>>20449236
>If the relationship is that good nowadays (as likely the threads' only Irishman, I'll take you word that it is) then that makes the story all the nicer.
Oh its fairly intertwined now, you'll find nothing but light teasing between Catholics and Protestants now.
>>20449740
He disliked Thomas Hardy if I remember well enough, but that's before him. His little protege was Beckett and Beckett was influenced so much by Joyce (remember that a blind Joyce dictated Finnegan's Wake to Beckett to write) that he would develop that very raw and sparse style he's famous for; in fact Beckett was convinced that Joyce had pushed the limits of English so far that one could not go any further and instead wrote in French becuase it made him be more basic in his writing.

[Anonymous No.20451162]

A Painful Case did me in something fierce.
>As he sat there, living over his life with her and evoking alternately the two images in which he now conceived her, he realised that she was dead, that she had ceased to exist, that she had become a memory. He began to feel ill at ease. He asked himself what else could he have done. He could not have carried on a comedy of deception with her; he could not have lived with her openly. He had done what seemed to him best. How was he to blame? Now that she was gone he understood how lonely her life must have been, sitting night after night alone in that room. His life would be lonely too until he, too, died, ceased to exist, became a memory—if anyone remembered him.
>It was after nine o’clock when he left the shop. The night was cold and gloomy. He entered the Park by the first gate and walked along under the gaunt trees. He walked through the bleak alleys where they had walked four years before. She seemed to be near him in the darkness. At moments he seemed to feel her voice touch his ear, her hand touch his. He stood still to listen. Why had he withheld life from her? Why had he sentenced her to death? He felt his moral nature falling to pieces.
I've already tapped out, referee. Stop the goddamn match.
>One human being had seemed to love him and he had denied her life and happiness: he had sentenced her to ignominy, a death of shame . He knew that the prostrate creatures down by the wall were watching him and wished him gone. No one wanted him; he was outcast from life’s feast.
And now I've been choked out. Put the X up and drag me the fuck out of the ring, please.

[Anonymous No.20451793]

>He turned back the way he had come, the rhythm of the engine pounding in his ears. He began to doubt the reality of what memory told him. He halted under a tree and allowed the rhythm to die away. He could not feel her near him in the darkness nor her voice touch his ear. He waited for some minutes listening. He could hear nothing: the night was perfectly silent. He listened again: perfectly silent. He felt that he was alone.
I like how all the sentences in the last paragraph begins with the word /he/.

[Anonymous No.20451872]

Threw my book to the floor when he cut it off with her, stupid old cunt

[Anonymous No.20451885]

>>20451872
Post picture of damaged book

[Anonymous No.20452216]

>>20451162
Same here. A grim reminder to not live life passively, but to get out there and be active and try to live it fully. Now I have two futures to fear: an unhappy life where I rushed into things too early, or a lonely life where there is no one but me.

[Anonymous No.20452377]

>regarding his own acts with doubtful side-glances.
love this sentence so much.
>an odd autobiographical habit which led him to compose in his mind from time to time a short sentence about himself containing a subject in the third person and a predicate in the past tense.
META. he's self-aware about his self-awareness! this is him talking about himself!
>At four o'clock he was set free.
i love the usage of the term "set free." this seems to me, at least in terms of prose, the most clever story in dubliners so far!
>visiting his relatives at Christmas and escorting them to the cemetery when they died.
again, this is very witty, dense, sharp, crisp, precise prose. someone tell me i'm not the only one who feels this way!
>He allowed himself to think that in certain circumstances he would rob his bank but, as these circumstances never arose, his life rolled out evenly—an adventureless tale.
> The house, thinly peopled and silent, gave distressing prophecy of failure.
i've been copying more sentences from this story to my notebook than anything else i've ever read before. Holy shit. every single line is great!
>He had dismissed his wife so sincerely from his gallery of pleasures that he did not suspect that anyone else would take an interest in her.
lol
>he entangled his thoughts with hers.
i love this, too. very simple, but very strong.
>To compete with phrasemongers, incapable of thinking consecutively for sixty seconds?
i wonder how this ties into the whole stream-of-consciousness thing.
> His father died; the junior partner of the bank retired. And still every morning he went into the city by tram and every evening walked home from the city after having dined moderately in George's Street and read the evening paper for dessert.
ah. this line is where my heart trembles and the hairs on my arms stand erect and i sink into myself and feel like crying. it's always these sorts of throwaway lines in stories that affect me the most emotionally.
>due to shock and sudden failure of the heart's action
>He gnawed the rectitude of his life; he felt that he had been outcast from life's feast.
>the grey gleaming river, winding along
>a goods train winding out of Kingsbridge Station, like a worm with a fiery head winding through the darkness, obstinately and laboriously.
>He listened again: perfectly silent. He felt that he was alone.

holy shit. i love this. i can't tell you much beyond that; i'm a dimwit midwit and i cannot articulate my feelings about joyce well enough. joyce understood humans intimately, and he understood human experience thoroughly and completely.
>>20451793
i noticed this too. very good rhythm.
>>20449894
you're right, anon. passivity will drag me into a thick, black, gooey, eternal sadness. by the way, which of beckett's works would you recommend the most?
>>20451162
i know, anon. this had me on the floor too.


wow.

[Anonymous No.20452387]

>>20452377
>i love this, too. very simple, but very strong.
i should correct myself here. very simple AND very strong.

[Anonymous No.20452779]

>>20449894
>Who on /lit/ could possibly relate to such a niche concept!?
Kek, half the stories in here seemed custom made for /lit/ readers. Good connection with the Clay. I was thinking myself that that story made me afraid of finding a partner who I didn't have a connection with while this one makes me wary of getting too much into my routine and not reaching out to people. Something I know all too well.
>>20451872
The sentence, "Four years passed," was something else. Really showed how life can just blow past you.
>>20452377
>understood human experience thoroughly and completely
I'm beginning to see this more and more with each story. I feel like almost every time I read one there's a part where I think, "I've felt exactly like this."

[Anonymous No.20452813]

I like how for the first twelve stories the characters get progressively older, starting from early childhood to oldish age.
The last three stories fall out of this progression because Joyce added them to the collection while spending years finding a publisher.

[Anonymous No.20452822]

>>20452377
>Beckett
Early Beckett is very much Joycean in his prose and language. His first novel "A dream of fair to middling women" is fairly standard compared to his later works but well worth the read. I reccomend you start with Murphy, then Watt then move on to his Trilogy of Molloy, Malone Dies and The Unameable. It's a very dense collection however, even more so than Joyce in full swing. His short stories are worth a read as well. Dante and the Lobster is quite Dublineresque but The End, First love and others are more like "Beckett" in the convential sense. Honestly Beckett is an amazing writer, you could argue the best Ireland has produced, I'd disagree but it's a valid opinion. He is the last modernist in my opinion as well and really hit back at what modernism in general had done to the written word. He has a gallows humour about him and his stories are dirty, full of vagrants and misfits and everything always gets slightly worse as things go on. There's really nobody like Beckett in literature. His dramatic works are worth an entire post by themselves and I won't dive into them here; they are even more out there and strange than his novels. Waiting for Godot is probably his most down to earth one.

[Anonymous No.20453474]

>>20452822
Noice, an infodump worth saving.

[Anonymous No.20454185]

Bump.

I want to open the floor for discussion about how to split up Portrait. It's about 250 pages long in six(?) parts.

[Anonymous No.20454516]

>>20454185
A chapter every two days feels about right, but I could probably do a chapter a day. The slower, contemplative pace we have with Dubliners is pretty good, as it gives everyone time to breathe and keeps the thread bumped for the most part. I fear there is only going to be a dozen or so of us sticking together through this particular read along until maybe Ulysses.

[Anonymous No.20454551]

>>20454185
>>20454516
OP here. i was originally planning on doing it in 10 days, but i think i'll wait for everybody to reply with their opinion on what we should do. 5 days sounds good to me too, honestly! i suppose we should vote on this.

[Anonymous No.20454800]

>>20454516
>>20454185
>>20454551
I would say five is too short for me. I could probably swing ten days, but I wouldn't mind more.

[Anonymous No.20454983]

>>20454800
OP here. yeah. i think we have to remember that the schedule was designed to be as light as possible without interfering with other people's schedules! five days would be alright if we had nothing else to do except read and discuss joyce, but that isn't the case. maybe 10 days is the best.

[Anonymous No.20455304]

>Ivy Day in the Committee Room
Another story that's specifically Irish. Ivy Day was the celebration of Parnell, a leading figure in the Irish independence movement, specifically home rule (Ireland would have its own parliament and not be ruled directly from Westminster). Parnell was brought down eventually, by the Irish in a not too shocking turn of events if you've read my previous posts about the Irish crab-in-a-bucket mentality and Portrait. Parnell however, lived on as a legend and still does to an extent and this story shows how the Irish failed to build upon Parnell's legacy. Instead of being proactive and trying to build on the momentum we instead sat about and talked about the good old days. The length plays into this, it's a bit longer than most other stories (the longest of any story so far) and the boring, monotonous goings on are all apart of the overall theme. Paralysed by history the fellows in the committee room will achieve nothing.

[Anonymous No.20455904]

>Mr. O'Connor, a grey-haired young man, whose face was disfigured by many blotches and pimples, had just brought the tobacco for a cigarette into a shapely cylinder but when spoken to he undid his handiwork meditatively. Then he began to roll the tobacco again meditatively and after a moment's thought decided to lick the paper.
i like these little observant moments in literature. is this what they call Realism? i've noticed the same sort of attention to human behaviour in, like, DFW's work. can one of the smart anons talk about how Joyce relates to DFW? are they similar in any way at all?
>a husky falsetto.
this isn't relevant to discussion, but i thought it was funny that this took me a moment to parse; i imagined this as a sultry, effeminate "gay voice" at first.
"Sure, amn't I never done at the drunken bowsy ever since he left school? 'I won't keep you,' I says. 'You must get a job for yourself.' But, sure, it's worse whenever he gets a job; he drinks it all."

Mr. O'Connor shook his head in sympathy, and the old man fell silent, gazing into the fire. Someone opened the door of the room and called out:

>"Hello! Is this a Freemason's meeting?"
>"Who's that?" said the old man.

>"What are you doing in the dark?" asked a voice.

>"Is that you, Hynes?" asked Mr. O'Connor.

>"Yes. What are you doing in the dark?" said Mr. Hynes, advancing into the light of the fire.
I love this exchange. So well written!!! Agh. I reread this exchange over and over again.
This, too:
>"Hello, Crofton!" said Mr. Henchy to the fat man. "Talk of the devil . . ."

>"Where did the boose come from?" asked the young man. "Did the cow calve?"

>"O, of course, Lyons spots the drink first thing!" said Mr. O'Connor, laughing.

>"Is that the way you chaps canvass," said Mr. Lyons, "and Crofton and I out in the cold and rain looking for votes?"

>"Why, blast your soul," said Mr. Henchy, "I'd get more votes in five minutes than you two'd get in a week."

over the past few days my brain's been slowly aligning, like a compass needle, with the electromagnetic field of Joyce's work. goddamn.
But I have to admit, this story in particular flew over my head. I didn't enjoy it as much-- the themes are far too distant and alien to someone like me. They're having a good time and all, and it would be an enjoyable read, if not for this odd sense of peril that seems to pervade the story.

>>20455304
Thanks for the explanation, anon. This post helped me understand the story better.

[Anonymous No.20455906]

>>20455904
sleep-deprived formatting. forgive me!

[Anonymous No.20456270]

I haven't been participating in the discussions here (I don't feel like I have much worth saying), but I wanted to let you know that I am grateful for being able to read what you all are thinking. Your insights have been helpful and have grown my appreciation of Joyce. I will continue following along and maybe one day share my ignorant thoughts.

Just wanted to say thanks because sometimes posting here can feel discouraging. But know that even if there aren't a lot of responses, there are probably plenty like me reading and enjoying what you write.

[Anonymous No.20456725]

>>20456270
I'm another like you.

[Anonymous No.20456920]

>>20456270
>>20456725
thank you guys so much for reading along!

[Anonymous No.20456965]

>>20454185
>>20454516
>>20454551
>>20454800
>>20454983
Plus, we want to start reading Ulysses on June 16

[Anonymous No.20457071]

>>20456965
oh shit right i completely forgot. bloomsday.

[Anonymous No.20457295]

>>20452813
I don't wanna be too pedantic about it, expecially since it doesn't really concern the qualities of the texts itself but it's rather about the historiographic behind them: the dead, the two gallants and a little cloud were the three short stories that were actually added later. To be precise, he wrote (and added) them after he first submitted an early version of Dubliners to various publishers in 1907. Making the overall structure of the book shift from an initial 4x3 (4 childhood stories, 4 youth ones and 4 for the adult cycle) to a 3+4+4+3. So the short stories that were added amplified the central section (the adult one) while the last three deal with people public lives.

[Anonymous No.20457338]

>>20456270
>>20456725
Me too

[Anonymous No.20457381]

I finally got my physical copy of Dubliners and realized that my pdf was missing those cool maps that explain where the story takes place. I wish I had them before. :(
I also found a ticket for a church event from 2008 in it.

[Anonymous No.20457637]

>>20449894
>Joyce said he had read every line of only three writers: Flaubert, Ben Jonson and Ibsen.
>He also loved Tolstoy and Shelley.
>As a young man, Ibsen was his hero; he wrote him a fan letter and studied to read him in the original (Exiles shows a strong influence).
>Joyce ascribed his use of stream of consciousness to Dujardin's 1888 novel Les Lauriers sont Coupés.
>Philosophical sources include Aquinas, Vico and Giordano Bruno.
>He once remarked that "I love Dante almost as much as the Bible. He is my spiritual food, the rest is ballast."

[Anonymous No.20457697]

>>20457637
>>20449894
thank you so much for your answers!!!

[Anonymous No.20457716]

Read Ulyssese in 2016 and 2018, definitely one of my favorite books.
Currently reading Critique of Pure Reason but I might be able to finish it by June 16.
Trying to convince myself to re-read it along with you lads, been I while since I read any fiction.
Been meaning to read it again for a couple of years already...

[Anonymous No.20457739]

>>20457716
Who's that old ass fella next to Joyce

[Anonymous No.20457829]

>>20457716
>Critique of Pure Reason
Risking going off topic I actually had a Kant question on my mind. The Critique of Pure Reason is attacking reason, and the assumption that human reason can see all ends and etc etc. I would see this as anti-utilitarian in essence as it's attacking rationality and over-reliance on that. In the same vein though the Categorical Imperative almost seems very close to if not utilitarian. Have I misread Mr. Kant?

[Anonymous No.20457955]

>>20457381
My edition doesn't have maps

[Anonymous No.20458944]

>>20449136
Why don't we make a Joyce club on /lit/, boys? I think it would be a good idea considering the quality of the posts here and in the previous thread. I've never actually seen this level of discussion before, does Joyce have some special qualities about it?

[Anonymous No.20459380]

Ah shit I'm a day behind

[Anonymous No.20459693]

The bottles popped because they're full of hot air, just like the canvassers. GET IT!
>>20457338
>>20456725
>>20456270
Glad to have you along frends!
>>20455904
>DFW
Afraid I can't say about about DFW, but the more I re-read Dubliners and Ulysses the more I can see how big an influence Joyce was on Cormac McCarthy. Both take simple acts and describe them in a way that are beautiful. Certain lines also like;
>the fire, which uttered a hissing protest
remind me a lot of McCarthy. Obviously a fire can't protest, but somehow you know exactly what he means.
>>20455304
I think this is one that you really need context to appreciate. Without my professor giving the context about Parnell and the other parties, I don't think I'd appreciate it nearly as well. Still have a tough time with it because, much like >>20455904 said, the themes feel too different.

[Anonymous No.20459708]

For anyone interested, I found this super fascinating interview online with the lady responsible for publishing the first edition of Ulysses. Knew a bunch of people in the 1920s Parisian art scene. Said Joyce was sort of a celebrity around them.

[Anonymous No.20459721]

I'm reading Dubliners in silence but sure want to participate in the discussion for A Portrait, it's being a pleasure reading with you guys. Thanks for the great contributions and sincere comments my fellow /litzens

[Anonymous No.20459724]

>>20459708
Okay thanks for telling us you found it. Would you like to share a link too

[Anonymous No.20459739]

>>20459724
Kek
>>20459708
Yes, I am interested. Share link

[Anonymous No.20459799]

>>20458944
we are very lucky; there are people who have studied joyce in this thread who love his work and are willing to stop and talk about and analyse the themes in his work!

[Anonymous No.20459996]

Finally finished Ivy Committee. He can even make the mundane rife with interesting talk. There's a ton of things to learn about dialogue just from this story alone.

[Anonymous No.20460080]

>>20459724
>>20459739
Kek, forgot to submit it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1Zbw39MCm4

[Anonymous No.20460776]

>A Mother
Another one I don't really care for. The mother living vicariously through their daughter is something that isn't explored a lot though. It seems Mrs. Kearnan is more concerned about how she looks and how people think about her more than her daughters success or even the money. She is an awful matriarch of a woman and there is a need in me to mention Victoria but I think that would just be a lazy comparison.

>>20459708
I went there not too long ago and I was fucking horrified. The soul was completely dead and it was ran by these retarded 20 something year old Yanks that couldn't tell Joyce from Adam. The shop was full of people congregating over the YA section and they just had shelves upon shelves of Ulysses, untouched. They even had a fucking cafe connected to it I fucking hate them so much.

[Anonymous No.20461672]

>>20455304
This helped a lot, anon, thanks. Still, my least favorite, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its moments and isn't written quite well.

[Anonymous No.20462156]

>>20460776
>Adam
?

[Anonymous No.20462312]

>>20460776
But she was in the right, was she not? The contract was for four concerts, and she had put sweat and grease into the programme but for Mr Holohan to brush her off.

[Anonymous No.20462412]

>>20462156
In case ESL, "didn't know X from Adam" is a phrase meaning you don't know someone. References Adam from the Bible, the first man. So not knowing someone from Adam means even though you share the same progenitor you have no fucking clue who that person is, because they're so foreign.

[Anonymous No.20462466]

>>20462312
Her attitude and desperate need to appear in power cost her daughter her blossoming career. The first two concerts weren't highly regarded remember. Had she been pragmatic everything would have been fine but the need for her to be in a dominant position is what cost her.

[Anonymous No.20463540]

>>20462466
The first two concerts weren't highly regarded because Mr Holohan ignored the programme Mrs Kearney made where the good singers were spread evenly instead of shoved all into the last day.

[Anonymous No.20463698]

>>20449136
how long are we taking on Ulysses?

[Anonymous No.20463720]

>>20463698
One chapter a day?

[Anonymous No.20463739]

>>20463720
a bit much, no? considering there're chapters like Oxens of the Sun that are remarkably difficult. I was thinking on something around 3 to four chapters a week, but maybe I'm overestimating it.

[Anonymous No.20464559]

Bumping this one to keep it alive

[Anonymous No.20464635]

>>20459693
i feel like the subject matter is different from the rest of dubliners in that it's focusing on a different type of relationship than the others, but the themes seemed the same to me.

[Anonymous No.20464876]

>>20463698
>>20463720
>>20463739
I would say a chapter a week, myself. I’m actually already on Circe for my re-read so it’s not as important to me but that would appeal to me. Could also be broken up depending on the chapter.

[Anonymous No.20464905]

I feel like there are a lot of things this story brings up that are covered a bit better in others. The overbearing mother, stagnant life, and cheating authority figures have been brought up before, but maybe Joyce has a unique perspective since he’s talking as an artist who’s being cheated.
>>20460776
I didn’t love it either to be honest. Part of that may be because I don’t know the first thing about music/singing, though.
>>20462312
>>20462466
If there’s one thing that’s interesting it’s comparing this mother to the one in “The Boarding House.” While that mother was practical and got what she needed for her daughter this one seems a bit to proud to the point where it’s a detriment to her career.

[Anonymous No.20464933]

>>20464905
I’ve not read Joyce before, just found out about the read along, you mention artist being cheated.
That reminds me of the idea that we as human beings are cheated by life, we are given/evolved consciousness but chained to so many things, we get to see suffering all around us but we ca not fix all of it, we get to see so much beauty in life but we are only alive for a little while in the vastness of time.

I’ll read along Portrait and Ulysses, then I’ll come back to Dubliners.

[Anonymous No.20465050]

>>20449136
I'm going to the bookstore this weekend so I can read A Portrait with you niggas
I'm excited

[Anonymous No.20465222]

>>20465050
Portrait is extremely approachable and very fun to read. I've already read it so I will be skimming it and posting my favorite passages.

[Anonymous No.20465506]

Bump

[Anonymous No.20465573]

>>20463720
>>20463739
>>20464876
How about 2 chapters a week? Or 1 chapter per 4 days?

[Anonymous No.20465608]

Mrs. Kearney did nothing wrong.

[Anonymous No.20465811]

>A dark medal of blood had formed itself near the man's head on the tessellated floor.
beautiful sentence.

did anybody else imagine a Tour de France athlete when the man in the "cycling-suit" entered?

>"And have you nothing for me, duckie?"
>"O, you! The back of my hand to you!" said Mrs. Kernan tartly.
>Her husband called after her:
>"Nothing for poor little hubby!"
c- cute

love this story too! not christian, but this is really good:
>"Well, I have looked into my accounts. I find this wrong and this wrong. But, with God's grace, I will rectify this and this. I will set right my accounts."
i had a huge smile on my face reading this.

[Anonymous No.20465820]

>Grace
This was originally the ending of Dubliners and the tone is quite anti-climactic, depressing even. Joyce wrote the majority of these stories, as I've said before, at 23 when he was still full of resentment and bitterness towards Dublin. Sitting abroad he worte stories over how stifling and claustrophobic the city was. Where the sun never really hits the street and ambition, happiness and other positive human emotions are paralysed and forced to live in stasis. In Grace we see this alcholic being convinced to change his ways (by some characters we will meet again) through the grace of God. There is but one way to salvation in Dublin and that's at the chapel. We never see what happens to Mr. Kernan (In Dubliners anyway) so we see this man literally fall from Grace but never the rise, the fall is always inevitable in Dubliners, the rise is treated as a foreign, abstract concept that hardly has basis in reality. How many times have we seen redemption through the book? I think that answers what happens to Mr. Kernan.
It's very telling that Joyce wanted to end Dubliners on this note for a long time, what a story to end a book on and I think its easy to see how much he mellowed in regards to his attitude to Dublin and Irish cullture by the time The Dead is written in 1907 and will prove to be a much more satisfying ending. It's just very pleasing that what we'll be reading today is the best short story (if you can call it that) ever written.

[Anonymous No.20465827]

>>20465820 oh boy. i might be a dumbass (i'm >>20465811), because i found it very... hopeful. atleast "rhythmically" it is. i can't explain it.
thanks for the post! this makes a lot of sense.

[Anonymous No.20465837]

>>20465827
You could very easily argue your point old boy, it's just our interpertations. I'm also including what I know about these characters from small clips of Ulysses so it's not really fair. I think my analysis is much more true to the spirit of Dubliners but the dirty little nugget of hope is also very apt for the story. There's really no answer I would say as long as it's defended well enough, I'd almost say one's view of it is dependent on their mood lol.

[Anonymous No.20466165]

>>20465827
I also find it rather hopeful. Even if you discard religion, the man still has a family and friends that care for him.

[Anonymous No.20466172]

>>20465837
ahh. makes much, much more sense now.
>It's just very pleasing that what we'll be reading today is the best short story (if you can call it that) ever written.
huh. why do you think do?
>>20466165
this is true, too.
i'm not sure, though. it does feel like there's a bit of cynicism on joyce's part about the nature of religion, especially with this line:
>He was quite unconscious that he was the victim of a plot which his friends, Mr. Cunningham, Mr. M'Coy and Mr. Power had disclosed to Mrs. Kernan in the parlour.
seems very... insidious.

[Anonymous No.20466188]

>>20465820
> best short story ever written
I'm really not sure about that. While I agree The Dead is one of the best, I still find Flaubert's A Simple Heart better.

[Anonymous No.20466201]

>>20466172
Joyce's attitude about religion is probably at least in part negative, but I don't think that the "plot" here must necessarily be interpreted negatively. It's a plot by people wishing him well and acting, well, rather graciously about his drinking problem.

[Anonymous No.20466215]

>>20466201
i thought so too. but now i'm considering a second dimension to it

[Anonymous No.20466228]

>>20466215
Hmm. You may have a point. But how could religion discard genuine care?

[Anonymous No.20466241]

>>20466172
>huh. why do you think do?
I don't want to spoil it or put opinions in your head before you read it, The Dead is just absolutely perfect.
>>20466188
Really? Not for me to be honest. The Dead, A Little Cloud and White Nights would be my top 3.
>>20466201
>Joyce's attitude about religion is probably at least in part negative
I think contrary to popular belief, even among most academics I think Joyce was a Christian. He definitely had problems with the institution of the Catholic Church and how it could stifle you but I do think he believed in God. He would go to mass every year on Good Friday and Easter Sunday for one, an atheist wouldn't do that.

[Anonymous No.20466282]

>>20466241
> The Dead, A Little Cloud and White Nights would be my top 3
Interesting. For me, A Painful Case is better than A Little Cloud. I haven't read White Nights, though. A Little Cloud seems all-too-familiar for someone with ambition from Eastern Europe, so I suspect that part of its appeal is exoticism.

> I do think he believed in God
Interesting to know. From my understanding, Irish religiosity was part of what pushed him to exile.

[Anonymous No.20466325]

>>20466241
>>20466188
i'm always intimidated when anybody calls something the absolute best anything ever. it either means they're very, very smart (which you are), or very, very, very dumb.
can't wait to start The Dead.
i'll cheat and start before tomorrow, maybe!

[Anonymous No.20466353]

>>20466282
Oh White Nights is very bittersweet but strangely positive, well overtly positive for Dostoevsky. I always find myself having a guilty pleasure for a good romance as well so it's a nice combination I recommend it highly!
>Interesting to know. From my understanding, Irish religiosity was part of what pushed him to exile.
I lean to the side that it was the institution of the Catholic Church. To him, Irish people had two masters: The King and The Pope. I think if Ireland was say Anglican it wouldn't have bothered him as much. Portrait of the Artist will really develop on this though so I'll not ramble.
>>20466325
I think I should say in reference to The Dead that me being Irish does add a lot to it. I can relate or identify with a lot of the concepts which might be more abstract and vague to someone outside of the country. It has a lot of Irish nationalism in it but it does settle into it being a universal story. The last few pages of it is absolutely amazing. After reading it watch the film, it was made by John Huston and is free on youtube!

[Anonymous No.20466394]

>>20466353
>To him, Irish people had two masters: The King and The Pope.
(>>20466325 here) i remember this scene in Telemachus:
>Stephen turned and saw that the cold gaze which had measured him was not all unkind.
>— After all, I should think you are able to free yourself. You are your own master, it seems to me.
>— I am the servant of two masters, Stephen said, an English and an Italian.
So what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me (It also makes this scene make more sense!).

[Anonymous No.20466677]

>>20466353
> I'm Irish
Well, obviously all the Irish nationalist references flew over my head, but the last part was indeed peak literature for me. Can't wait to get to the analysis.

[Anonymous No.20467045]

>>20466677
How did it fly over your head.

[Anonymous No.20467058]

>>20467045
Well, I'm not Irish. Nor do I have an intimate knowledge of Irish history.

[Anonymous No.20467085]

Personally I felt kinda betrayed by this story. The incipit made it seems that it would be kind of a mistery/thriller tale but instead it was about christianity (again).
Also, does anyone know who the two mysterious men who made the protagonist fall down the stairs were? I don't know if I missed it or just isn't there.

>>20465811
>did anybody else imagine a Tour de France athlete when the man in the "cycling-suit" entered?
Yeah, I don't know why but I actually did.

[Anonymous No.20467116]

>>20465608
Fr Fr no cap. In all seriousness though I thought it was a good story. Actually good feminist leaning read

[Anonymous No.20467235]

>>20467116
>Actually good feminist leaning read
Why do you feel it like that?

[Anonymous No.20467377]

>>20467085
>Also, does anyone know who the two mysterious men who made the protagonist fall down the stairs were? I don't know if I missed it or just isn't there.
well,
>"Those other two fellows I was with ———"
>"Who were you with?" asked Mr. Cunningham.
>"A chap. I don't know his name. Damn it now, what's his name? Little chap with sandy hair. . . ."
>"And who else?"
>"Harford."
>>20467116
>>20467235
oh, can one of the smarter anons in this thread talk more about joye's relationship with women? his female characters are remarkably real and pleasant to read; he writes women with great empathy, but he also seems to have acknowledged, perhaps, his own biases against women in Proteus. i know we should maybe wait, but it seems like while the topic's at hand, maybe we should talk about feminism in joyce's work?

[Anonymous No.20467445]

>>20467377
>joyce's relationship with women
he liked smelling their farts

[Anonymous No.20467522]

>>20467445
Kek

[Anonymous No.20467940]

OP here! i'd like to thank everybody who read along, and especially everyone who contributed with their thoughts and ideas and analyses, keeping this reading group alive for about 2 weeks. i genuinely thought this would last, like, 2 days. this is probably currently the most productive and thoughtful thread on the board (although i'm very embarrassed that the thoughts i have had to offer have been very... lackluster)
seeing as dubliners is coming to an end, do you guys think we should try to get more people to join us for a portrait? or should we keep this group going the way it has been for the past 2 weeks?

[Anonymous No.20468371]

Fuck I'm still reading Don quixote

[Anonymous No.20468569]

>>20468371
That's a great book

[Anonymous No.20468576]

>>20467940
>do you guys think we should try to get more people to join us for a portrait?
Since it would attract more people I think we should another thread from scratch for people who missed it.

[Anonymous No.20468803]

I have a vague memory of our teacher telling us to skip the second to last two chapters when we read Dubliners and I can see why. Even as a filthy Papist, I still didn't get much from the story. In some ways, it does prepare me a little for Ulysses with the discussion of businessmen, Irish Jews, and my man Martin Cunningham but I didn't get much besides that. Think it might be a case where knowing the context of Ireland at the time helps. Did think it was a bit more upbeat, though, which was nice.
>>20467085
If I were to guess, I'd say they are just unscrupulous drinking buddies. Another way this story sort of relates to Ulysses.
>>20465820
Maybe I'm missing some context, but I didn't find it too depressing myself. The protagonist has to find salvation through the Church, but I still see it as a better option than the other option he's left with to continue to drink.
>>20465811
I found it a bit hopeful too. The fact that Joyce himself attended both Protestant and Catholic services later in life occasionally makes me think that, even if it wasn't his intention at the time, there might be hope for the old guy (can't remember the protagonist's name).
>>20464933
I don't know if I agree with that notion anon, but if you're thinking about beauty being a fleeting this in our lifetime I hope you'll stick around for Ulysses. Joyce captures the beauty of the universe all in the matter of eighteen hours.

[Anonymous No.20469028]

>>20468371
fuck, me too. only 120 pages left. I'm finishing it tommorow for sure

[Anonymous No.20469037]

why are you guys getting filtered by the latter parts of dubliners? the specific politics isn't the whole point, its the scenes themselves which are universally resonant experiences

[Anonymous No.20470113]

>>20465573
yeah, that's quite doable. but I'd personally think we should break it into specific chapters. i.e 3 days for Hades, a week for Oxens of the Sun, and so on.
maybe someone who's already read it can chip in?

[Anonymous No.20470222]

>>20449145
Hey guys, started yesterday here, will be catching up with you by checking the archive
Every story so far has blown my mind. So delicate and emotional. I just read Araby out loud to my gf.
Lets keep this thing going till Ulysses, maybe get like 2+ guys to make a podcast or twitter spaces (any volunteers?)
Cheers from Brazil

[Anonymous No.20470239]

>>20470222
>maybe get like 2+ guys to make a podcast or twitter spaces
lmfaoing@you, faggot. what a watse of trips

[Anonymous No.20470252]

>>20470222
By the way, just wanted to share that I'm reading this 1993 edition I found at a pawn store for R$10 (U$2)
Gave more weight to the line "I liked the last best because its leaves were yellow" in Arabys

[Anonymous No.20470260]

>>20470239
Voice chat is better for discussing a complex subject like fucking Ulysses than a 100 replies thread on 4chan
What a waste of time doing captchas to talk to fags like you

[Anonymous No.20470279]

>>20470260
make a telegram or discord if you want to discuss it verbally, why do you need a podcast or some retard twitting about it

[Anonymous No.20470284]

>>20470252

[Anonymous No.20470295]

>>20470279
Twitter spacss works like voice chat for anyone who wants to join in
We can give talking space to literally every poster interested in here, with something resembling a host(s) just to give it some structure
Idk could be great

[Anonymous No.20470308]

>>20470295
I still think that discord or telegram would be a better pick, a lot of us don't have a twitter account. but eh, what do I know.

[Anonymous No.20470415]

>>20470295
Why is it so hard to keep discussion on 4chan? If I wanted to use Twitter or Discord or Telegram or whateverfuck I'd use those platforms. I'm here on 4chan. I want to discuss on 4chan.

[Anonymous No.20471095]

>>20470222
OP here. you're right about oral discussion being more efficient and less cluttered than textposts. but i don't think the average /lit/ user has a twitter account! or a discord account. moving the discussion to another platform seems to me as if it might drive people away from these threads. it's been working fine so far, i think! we'll try to consider a podcast, but timing issues are very important. the way the reading schedule's been designed is supposed to make it easy for anybody to read (and post, if they want to) at any time during the periods to which the chapters are allocated. scheduling these live podcasts seems very overwhelming (to me, at least).
also,
>Every story so far has blown my mind. So delicate and emotional.
i agree!
>>20469037
you're right. nevertheless, "ivy day" didn't resonate with me at all, apart from the beautifully written dialogue. maybe i'm too young.
>>20470113
this is true! can one of the smart anons in this thread talk about how we should schedule ulysses?

Anyway, I'm going to go read The Dead now. I just woke up.

[Anonymous No.20471281]

>>20471095
i just began The Dead, and i have to say, this is some of the richest, most vivid, most phonetically pretty writing i've ever seen. i'm just five pages in but this outclasses everything we've read so far. this is amazing. i had to let everyone here know while the feeling was this strong, although i doubt it's going to weaken any as i read on. i'll get back after i'm done.

[Anonymous No.20471303]

>The Dead
This is the one I've been waiting for, what a story. Gabriel is a character I think resonates with us all, he is a universal soul despite him being by far the most together and affluent character in the book. Gabriel seems to lightly breeze through life, he pays no attention to anything that seems bigger than him, not to say he's self-centrered but he's a man that seems to let the goings of the world pass him by and this is what makes his epiphany at the end so powerful. From responding to being called a Wes-Brit, seeing Gretta in a trance to the singing of "The Lass of Aughrim" to his reaction to her telling the story of Michael Furey. Gabriel begins to realise that life goes on, it never stops despite the wishes and wants of all of those around them.
>For me your face is still beautiful, but it is no longer the face for which Michael Furey braved death.
It almost sounds like an insult but it's a deep and truthful thought in the style of which Joyce would go on to make his own. Gabriel seems astonished that a young man on the verge of death would rather die in the pissings of rain than be without Gretta and he sees then the beauty of the wild, brash emotions of which makes us human.
>Better pass boldly into that other world, in the full glory of some passion, than fade and wither dismally with age.
He begins to understand what life is and he begins to appreciate what he has and although he fears the inevitable he now feels he will make his time memorable and the hatred he has for his country, his city begins to subside and instead as he solemly looks out the window at the falling snow decides he will go westwards and embrace the wild unbridled passion of Ireland.
The closing of this story says more than pages and pages of academic essays could, I have it off by memory by this stage.
>A few light taps upon the pane made him turn to the window. It had begun to snow again. He watched sleepily the flakes, silver and dark, falling obliquely against the lamplight. The time had come for him to set out on his journey westward. Yes, the newspapers were right: snow was general all over Ireland. It was falling on every part of the dark central plain, on the treeless hills, falling softly upon the Bog of Allen and, farther westward, softly falling into the dark mutinous Shannon waves. It was falling, too, upon every part of the lonely churchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried. It lay thickly drifted on the crooked crosses and headstones, on the spears of the little gate, on the barren thorns. His soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead.

I live in Galway and I actually pass the house where Michael Fury showed up in the rain for Gretta. The story was based on something which had happened to his wife Nora. She once stood at the window to see a young lover come to say the exact same thing as Michael did.

[Anonymous No.20471479]

>>20471281
i loved it. that's all i have to say. joyce is a very heavy, dense, complex, beautiful writer.
i'll write down here some of the lines that i copied into my notebook:
>into the little pantry behind the office on the ground floor
>his delicate and restless eyes.
>He would fail with them just as he had failed with the girl in the pantry. He had taken up a wrong tone. His whole speech was a mistake from first to last, an utter failure.
>the skirts sweeping against the drawing-room door.
>The blood went bounding along his veins; and the thoughts went rioting through his brain, proud, joyful, tender, valorous.
>One by one, they were all becoming shades. Better pass boldly into that other world, in the full glory of some passion, than fade and wither dismally with age.
>Other forms were near. His soul had approached that region where dwell the vast hosts of the dead. He was conscious of, but could not apprehend, their wayward and flickering existence. His own identity was fading out into a grey impalpable world: the solid world itself, which these dead had one time reared and lived in, was dissolving and dwindling.

this was beautiful. it's been a great read. let's shepherd ourselves to the door that exits this great collection of stories, and say good night.

See you all for A Portrait.

[Anonymous No.20472237]

Fellas I just want to say I will be reading The Dead this afternoon and I'm very excited to do so given the feedback in this thread. We start Portrait tomorrow, right?

[Anonymous No.20472253]

schedule for A PORTRAIT OF THE ARTIST AS A YOUNG MAN
Chapter 1: 17,729 words
Chapter 2: 14,665 words
Chapter 3: 16,575 words
Chapter 4: 9,551 words
Chapter 5: 25,871 words

June 5-6: Chapter 1
June 7-8: Chapter 2
June 9-10: Chapter 3
June 11: Chapter 4
June 12-14: Chapter 5

[Anonymous No.20472256]

>>20472237
yes! we do.
tell us what you think of The Dead! good luck, anon!

[Anonymous No.20472727]

>>20471095
The voice chat could be done as a grand conclusion after Ulysses (kind of like how the Infinite Summer guys did), so as to not detract from the thread
Im only throwing the idea on the table... but I can help to organize it if 1 or 2 guys commit to it too

[Anonymous No.20473202]

>>20472727
At the end of Ulysses sounds good. I would like to see a podcast, maybe a few episodes, where anons talk about the insights of these threads and their own research and opinions.
And having it now would take away from these threads..
Also I don’t want to make a twitter account, and when I tried doing telegram it wants email n phone number, fuck disc

[Anonymous No.20473250]

>>20472727
>>20473202
sounds good to me! maybe when we near the end of ulysses we can begin organizing a discussion between anons who are interested enough and confident enough to do so.

[Anonymous No.20473381]

I'm on The Dead now and hardly 1000 words in there's some insane alliteration right here.
>A white fringe of snow lay like a cape on the shoulders of his overcoat and like toecaps on the toes of his goloshes; and, as the buttons of his overcoat slipped with a squeaking noise through the snow-stiffened frieze, a cold fragrant air from outdoors escaped from crevices and folds.
Just in the last two clauses I count three: s, f, and c.

[Anonymous No.20473455]

>>20473381
wow, i didn't catch this. fucking genius

[Anonymous No.20473484]

He was a traitor to Ireland and a pompous west Brit. He was worthless when he was alive and he is worthless now that he is dead. He turned his back on the Irish language, and that is an unforgivable sin. He spat in the face of his ancestors and licked the hole of his oppressors. Fuck Joyce, he is a knacker.

[Anonymous No.20473491]

>>20473484
Write this post again in Irish or fuck off Paddy

[Anonymous No.20473598]

>Gabriel felt humiliated by the failure of his irony and by the evocation of this figure from the dead, a boy in the gasworks. While he had been full of memories of their secret life together, full of tenderness and joy and desire, she had been comparing him in her mind with another. A shameful consciousness of his own person assailed him. He saw himself as a ludicrous figure, acting as a pennyboy for his aunts, a nervous, well-meaning sentimentalist, orating to vulgarians and idealising his own clownish lusts, the pitiable fatuous fellow he had caught a glimpse of in the mirror. Instinctively he turned his back more to the light lest she might see the shame that burned upon his forehead.
Ouch. That one stung.

[Anonymous No.20473668]

>>20473484
Go back to listening to the Wolfe Tones and wanking you massive cultural retard. People like you is why our country is such a fucking backwater for ambition.

[Anonymous No.20473968]

There's nothing quite like reading one of the greatest short stories in the English language while lunching on Spanish cheeses, listening to "Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash", and sipping from a bottle of Jameson that you bought for last year's Bloomsday but still haven't finished.

>Miss Ivors
Interesting to note that Gabriel, like Joyce, seems to identify with the continent, not England, but is still called a "West Briton". My understanding of modern Irish politics is that nowadays the nationalists are largely pro-Europe.

>Gabriel's speech
The part ragging on the younger generations reminded me of the lines from Yeats' "Under Ben Bulben":
>Scorn the sort now growing up / All out of shape from toe to top, / Their unremembering hearts and heads / Base-born products of base beds.

>Soon, perhaps, he would be sitting in that same drawing-room, dressed in black, his silk hat on his knees. The blinds would be drawn down and Aunt Kate would be sitting beside him, crying and blowing her nose and telling him how Julia had died. He would cast about in his mind for some words that might console her, and would find only lame and useless ones. Yes, yes: that would happen very soon.
Oof. My grandfather died recently, and I keep thinking about my parents dying and how similarly ineffectual I was and will be. It hurts.

>snow
As a northerner who regrettably had to move to the desert, I really liked all the snow imagery. I wonder if Joyce felt a similar homesickness for the precipitation of his native land.

I just love the fine-grained emotional detail in this story; you can trace (and relate to) Gabriel's roller-coaster thoughts and it all feels so natural. Despite Gabriel's pompousness it's hard to fully indict him for his inaction; it's impossible to compete with the burnished memory of a dead teenage lover who would've been judged stupid as an adult but gets away with it being an ultimate act of romance just because he was a dumb teenager who died before he could grow up.

[Anonymous No.20474016]

>>20470113
>>20471095
I've read Ulysses before, here's how I would go about scheduling the chapters:
Listed are for each chapter the Odyssey-nomenclature, the word count, the weight of difficulty, and at the rate of ~75000 weighted-words per day the total amount of days for reading.
>Telemachus: 7174 words, 1x, 1 day
>Nestor: 4420 words, 1x, 1 day
>Proteus: 5665 words, 3x, 3 days
>Calypso: 5882 words, 1x, 1 day
>Lotus-eaters: 6370 words, 1x, 1 day
>Hades: 10917 words, 1x, 2 days
>Æolus: 10046 words, 1x, 2 days
>Læstrygonians: 12619 words, 1x, 2 days
>Scylla and Charybdis: 11839 words, 1.5x, 3 days
>Wandering Rocks: 12559 words, 1.5x, 3 days
>Sirens: 12221 words, 2x, 4 days
>Cyclops: 21259 words, 2x, 5 days
>Nausicaa: 16652 words, 1.5x, 4 days
>Oxen of the Sun: 20286 words, 3x, 7 days
>Circe: 38319 words, 2x, 8 days
>Eumæus: 22647 words, 1.5x, 4 days
>Ithaca: 22403 words, 3x, 7 days
>Penelope: 24059 words, 2x, 6 days
A total of 64 days for Ulysses.

[Anonymous No.20474021]

>>20470113
>>20471095
I've read Ulysses before. Here's how I would go about scheduling the chapters:
Listed are for each chapter the Odyssey-nomenclature, the word count, the weight of difficulty, and at the rate of ~7500 weighted-words per day the total amount of days for reading.
>Telemachus: 7174 words, 1x, 1 day
>Nestor: 4420 words, 1x, 1 day
>Proteus: 5665 words, 3x, 3 days
>Calypso: 5882 words, 1x, 1 day
>Lotus-eaters: 6370 words, 1x, 1 day
>Hades: 10917 words, 1x, 2 days
>Æolus: 10046 words, 1x, 2 days
>Læstrygonians: 12619 words, 1x, 2 days
>Scylla and Charybdis: 11839 words, 1.5x, 3 days
>Wandering Rocks: 12559 words, 1.5x, 3 days
>Sirens: 12221 words, 2x, 4 days
>Cyclops: 21259 words, 2x, 5 days
>Nausicaa: 16652 words, 1.5x, 4 days
>Oxen of the Sun: 20286 words, 3x, 7 days
>Circe: 38319 words, 2x, 8 days
>Eumæus: 22647 words, 1.5x, 4 days
>Ithaca: 22403 words, 3x, 7 days
>Penelope: 24059 words, 2x, 6 days
A total of 64 days for Ulysses.

[Anonymous No.20474585]

>>20474021
this seems good to me! can any other anons weigh in?

[Anonymous No.20474735]

>>20473484
Kek,
If you are from Ireland or of Irish descent, Joyce wrote about you, in fact he did use Irish history in his work you are just too daft to fucking get. Joyce made fun of you boy.

[Anonymous No.20474746]

>>20473491
>>20473668
>>20474735
Holy baited

[Anonymous No.20474800]

>>20449136
I am finishing Ulysses now, I have been reading it since December. SOme passages are really dull, but there are a lot of great ideas sprinkled through the book.
It breaks my heart to see how much of a cuck Bloom is but at least he seems to be happy

[Anonymous No.20475272]

>>20474021
>>20474585
>64 days
Hooooooo nigga I'm gonna need a lot of excuses to get renewals at my library for this copy, but I am in for a penny and therefore in for a pound. Should I spring for Ulysses online instead? And get Dubliners while I'm at it? I already own Portrait.

[Anonymous No.20475318]

>>20475272
Why not tell library to extent, say it’s research or something, or just tell them the truth.

[Anonymous No.20475413]

>>20475318
I get 4 renewals, but I might as well just buy the damn thing so I can notate it if I desire.

[Anonymous No.20475482]

>>20475413
You can also get the apple book free version. You can make notes in there,
You got a tablet?

[Anonymous No.20475513]

>>20475482
I do have a tablet I haven't used in some time. I'm thinking about getting the Gabler edition but fuck me, that is one ugly ass book. The Modern Library 100 Best Books and the vintage reissue edition paperback from 1990 look the best, but I don't want to get the "wrong" edition.

[Anonymous No.20475556]

I vaguely remember reading Araby in highschook.
I think it was about women being whores or something... idk lol

[Anonymous No.20475719]

>>20475272
I found a new copy of Ulysses at a used book store for like 3 bucks.

[Anonymous No.20475746]

>>20474800
>>20475556
>anon spends six months reading Ulysses and his main reaction is about Bloom being a cuck
>other anon read Araby once and can't remember shit but felt the need to post in this thread about it just to project his incel complex
Truly the kind of insightful literary analysis I come to /lit/ for.

[Anonymous No.20475758]

>>20475746
i finished ulysses recently too but I'm saving my thoughts for when the groupread starts

[Anonymous No.20475998]

>moocow
I love the opening to Portrait so much, the prose is perfect. People might notice that it's quite an easy read coming straight off The Dead and that is by design. We are now in the mind of young Stephen Dedalus and we are viewing the world as a 7/8 year old boy does and it's charming as all hell really. Seeing young Stephen go from child to adult is an amazing journey and certainly unique. It's early morning here and I haven't actually read it yet, like Dubliners I'm going to see how far my memory takes me because I'm reading two books at the minute.

>>20474021
I think a lot of these are a bit too long, 3 days for Proteus is insane tbqhwym. Discussion would be very slow if it's not a day/two days a chapter.

[Anonymous No.20476206]

>—Tell us, Dedalus, do you kiss your mother before you go to bed?
>Stephen answered:
>—I do.
>Wells turned to the other fellows and said:
>—O, I say, here’s a fellow says he kisses his mother every night before he goes to bed.
>The other fellows stopped their game and turned round, laughing. Stephen blushed under their eyes and said:
>—I do not.
>Wells said:
>—O, I say, here’s a fellow says he doesn’t kiss his mother before he goes to bed.
>They all laughed again.

kek

[Anonymous No.20476261]

i read the first two or three chapters of portrait a while ago, in late february. i remember having copied some lines into my notebook. here they are:

>. . . he had pretended not to see that she was going to cry. She was a nice mother but she was not so nice when she cried.

>Wolsey died in Leicester Abbey
>Where the abbots buried him.
>Canker is a disease of plants,
>Cancer one of animals.

>And when Dante made that noise after dinner and then put up her hand to her mouth: that was heartburn.

>. . . and when anyone prayed to God and said Dieu then God knew at once that it was a French person that was praying.

>It pained him that he did not know well what politics meant and that he did not know where the universe ended. He felt small and weak.

>By thinking of things you could understand them.

[Anonymous No.20476291]

>>20476261
I find the later chapters have the best quotes but one that I love from the first chapter is
>Stephen Dedalus is my name, Ireland is my nation, Clongowes is my dwellingplace and heaven my expectation.

[Anonymous No.20476532]

>>20473598
>>20471303
Anyone else saw how Gabriel's epiphany is the acknowledgement of him being-towards-death and therefore on the way to authenticity? It's actually rather optimistic, albeit a reserved kind of optimism. I wonder if this concept, popularized by Heidegger, wasn't actually from a Greek or medieval philosopher Joyce read.

[Anonymous No.20476536]

What were Joyce's favorite classical composers? Music plays an important role in many of his writings.

[Anonymous No.20476553]

>>20476532
Yes, The Dead is quite optimistic, I think even surface readers pick that up in some vague way but the deeper you go into it the more you discover as you have. In terms of philosophy I don't think Joyce ever got into phenonology, but that's from memory: Aquinas and Aristotle were his big influences and then he was quite interested in Nietzsche as well.

>>20476536
Joyce was a big fan of the Italians from memory, I'm not a massive fan of classical music, well I enjoy it but I haven't gone too deep yet. Thomas Moore is another he grew up with.

[Anonymous No.20476890]

>>20476553
I think it's very unlikely that Joyce could have gotten into Heidegger. Being and Time, his first major work wasn't translated into English until 1962. I also don't think other, earlier phenomenologists popularized the concept - it's really a Heideggerian thing AFAIK. So we're prolly dealing here with one of those moments when art is ahead of philosophy.

[Anonymous No.20477100]

>Anon
>Joyce read-along thread
>/lit/
>4chan
>google
>internet
>computer

Just finished up chapter 1. How did you fellows like it? There was some great imagery and some good little quotes such as the poems as well!
>Dingong! The castle bell!
>Farewell, my mother
>Bury me in the old churchyard
>Beside my eldest brother
>My coffin shall be black
>Six angels at my back
>Two to sing and two to pray
>And two to carry my soul away

>By thinking of things, you could understand them.

>He thought of it with deep awe; a terrible and strange sin: it thrilled him to think of it…

While im not well versed on the history of Ireland and it’s conflicts, I did enjoy the Christmas dinner scene in all its hilarity as it reminds me much of my family get togethers. I also enjoyed Stephens little conversation to himself about Gods name. Does anyone have any predictions as to whether or not this questioning of god will continue throughout his life?

Also as an amerifag I cannot help but laugh at the slang used, adds a good little break in some of the tedious parts.

[Anonymous No.20477116]

>>20477100
>While im not well versed on the history of Ireland and it’s conflicts, I did enjoy the Christmas dinner scene in all its hilarity as it reminds me much of my family get togethers
This scene was one of very real roots. Parnell had the hopes of a nation on him and in the end the very people he tried to save brought him down. The classic Irish story of taking defeat from the jaws of victory. This really split Ireland between the deep routed catholics and the people who put Ireland first. This sort of crab in a bucket shit is something you see throughout Joyce's work and I mentioned it in a few of my posts already. Ambition is not allowed here.

[Anonymous No.20477133]

>>20477116
Not him but is there anywhere I can read more about this? It seems really interesting, especially its imparct on Irish nationalism in general

[Anonymous No.20477162]

Finished the first part of Portrait.
I have a question about the boys smugging in the square. I've read from some sources that 'smugging' is suggestive of homosexual activity. Is that true? It surprised me how casually it seemed to be taken given the era and religion.
As further exploration, what does this signify about Joyce and his relationship with sex and gender? I saw some earlier posts talking about how more might be revealed in Ulysses about Joyce's attitudes.

[Anonymous No.20477209]

>>20477133
About Parnell? I'd almost say Wikipedia would be fine on it's own, it's easy enough to get the gist of without the need of a deeper reading. If you want a quick rundown I'll throw one here.
>1801 Act of Union: Ireland loses its devolved parliament in Dublin and is now ruled directly from Westminster. Irish aristocrats and nobility leave en-masse and with it a lot of the investing money for the city (To this day the Georgian Houses of Dublin are the most beautiful part of the city.
>Daniel O'Connell comes along and starts campaigning for Catholic emancipation which is granted under Prime Minister Arthur Wellesley (AKA: The Duke of Wellington and also an Irish Protestant from Dublin). Before O'Connell could move on to any sort of Irish independence the famine strikes.
>Fast forward and Charles Stewart Parnell comes to head the IPP (Irish Parliamentary Party) which campaigns for Home Rule (The return of the Irish parliament and with it devolved government)
>Parnell manages to have almost all of Ireland voting for the IPP and was friendly with that legendary PM William Gladestone. (The Liberal party was always friendly to Irish Home Rule). In 1880 this was the election results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1880_United_Kingdom_general_election
>Subsequent years only saw an increase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1885_United_Kingdom_general_election.. This trend of Home Rule parties dominating Ireland would hold until 1918.
>Parnell now at the height of his power is involved in a scandal: Shagging the former lover (but legally still wife) of one of his rivals in the movement.
>Everybody freaks the fuck out because this is immoral and very anti-catholic so the bishops and priests would talk shit about him to the voters and a lot of the people in the Liberal Party refused to work with him because they were hardline non-conformists; and so Parnell falls from power and is taken over by another Home Rule Party.
This stung a lot of people naturally enough and killed what a lot of people thought was the momentum the movement had, they remained strong in the elections but none would be as talented a leader as Parnell until Mr. John Redmond came on the scene but that is way after this timeline.

[Anonymous No.20477224]

>>20477162
>smugging
The debate over this word is still going on believe it or not, the consensus is that smugging meant wanking but there's no definite proof.
> It surprised me how casually it seemed to be taken given the era and religion.
>As further exploration, what does this signify about Joyce and his relationship with sex and gender?
Stephen at the time didn't know what it meant, he was only a child remember. Joyce and his relationship towards sex wouldn't change until an encounter later on in the book. I think this incident was an introduction to that world but being a child he probably had no idea what it meant.

[Anonymous No.20477314]

>>20477224
ah, i though smugging was like snogging.

[Anonymous No.20478316]

>>20477100
>He thought of it with deep awe; a terrible and strange sin: it thrilled him to think of it…
Interesting that you highlighted this quote too. I wonder if this was the initial hint of a later internal conflict (I started a little earlier than the reading group and I'm in chapter 3).

[Anonymous No.20478360]

>>20467235
>>20467377
Idk if you still care, as we are on Portrait now, but in my opinion it showed a good balance of where women do get taken advantage of but also acknowledges the human, and thus consequentially flawed, side of them too,

[Anonymous No.20478361]

The best part of chapter 1 is the dinner exchange between Dante, Mr Casey, and Mr Dedalus. I especially love this exchange
>—God and religion before everything! Dante cried. God and religion before the world!
>Mr Casey raised his clenched fist and brought it down on the table with a crash.
>—Very well, then, he shouted hoarsely, if it comes to that, no God for Ireland!
>Dante stared across the table, her cheeks shaking. Mr Casey struggled up from his chair and bent across the table towards her, scraping the air from before his eyes with one hand as though he were tearing a side a cobweb.
>—No God for Ireland! he cried. We have had too much God in Ireland. Away with God!
It's a very raw portrayal of just how divided Ireland was on the Parnell issue. In particular, I hated Dante's pompous attitude toward the issue by hiding behind "Well the church says X so it must be true!" I think it's also in the spirit of Christianity to forgive sins, not banish sinners from your sight and live in an ivory tower. But how can you as a Christian support a man who was unfaithful to his wife?
The discussion really is impossible to answer. For either side you can argue on basis of religion or nationality, but there isn't a fundamental important point they're really arguing over. Moreover, since they're coming at it from two different backgrounds of argumentation (nationalism and religion), it's not possible for either side to win because the core value system of each side is different. If both had to argue on the basis of nationalism or on the basis of religion, then you could see one side winning out in a debate. But as it's presented here, you have an impossible debate. You can't even discuss it.
I suppose that's more a commentary on Parnell than Portrait, but I think it's worth sharing.

[Anonymous No.20478440]

>>20478361
A little later on in the novel (not really a spoiler, but I'll put it in spoilers just in case) Stephen feels as though his body and soul are divided. Perhaps this division in Irish society between Parnell and the Church also reflects this

[Anonymous No.20478779]

>>20478440
I'm grateful that I have read Portrait before and relatively recently. There are a lot of good passages in it that I love. It's tackling Ulysses that's going to filter me.

[Anonymous No.20478794]

Roughly when will you be starting Ulysses? I will probably join you boys for that.

[Anonymous No.20478850]

Just finished Dubliners, albeit a day late. Very fun read a long anons, some great discussions. I don’t know if I’ll be able to stick around for Portrait but I will be joining you all again for my Ulysses re-read. One thing this has confirmed, though, Joyce is definitely one of my favorite authors. Thanks for organizing OP.
>>20471303
Gabriel is another character I definitely identify with. Much like him, I think I can also get too distracted in love of somewhat abstract art discussion without considering the real world. Joyce seems to have a special talent for appealing to literature fans.
>>20473381
Love Joyce’s alliteration. Actually the thing that got me first interested in him.
>>20473968
It is interesting how often Joyce seems to be putting down characters who want to leave Ireland when he himself moved out so young. Makes me wonder how much were supposed to “side” with characters like Gabriel.

[Anonymous No.20479733]

>>20476206
I also laughed when he still wonders, later on, which one is the right answer.

[Anonymous No.20479760]

Dubliners are the most depressing book I've ever read

[Anonymous No.20479778]

>>20449740
i know joyce loved henrik ibsen, the norwegian playwright

[Anonymous No.20479782]

>>20458944
id be in

[Anonymous No.20479822]

>>20474585
according to my own experience with ulysses, a bit over 60 days seems right

[Anonymous No.20479838]

>>20475998
i agree, the way not only joyce's style but also the structure (external, sensory to internal, contemplative) 'grows up' with Dedalus in portrait is beautiful. Having previous experience with joyce before Portrait makes the first section a bit disarming but as you said, delightful

[Anonymous No.20479856]

>>20477100
the more-than-a-century-old Irish slang seems quaint and quite cute from a 21st century American perspective, I agree. It seems so simple and funny but my perspective of joyce shifted when I heard a professor read a bit of Ulysses in an Irish accent, then realized that was the key to really getting into a lot of the dialogue...I recall someone posting on here about that once as well

[Anonymous No.20479875]

>>20479760
You have to read A Man Asleep or Journey to the End of the Night then.

[Anonymous No.20479919]

>>20477162
I personally think smugging relates to homosexual activity, for a few reasons.

Firstly, as the boys discuss what the accused may have done, the crimes increase from petty cash theft, getting drunk off the wine in the chapel, and finally the act of 'smugging.' Thus, it seems there is a natural narrative escalation as to what the boys did.

Second, the way Athy says only that one word: "smugging," and that all the fellows are silent in response seems to indicate that is a graver crime, whereas the stealing and drinking of the wine are met with enthusiastic discussion. The way the young Dedalus's mind quickly moves over smugging ("It was a joke, he thought.") also establishes the character's youth.

Third, all of the boys caught in the crime except one choose expulsion from the school, a seemingly severe punishment if smugging were anything but a crime of a moral nature.

Finally, I think that it seems that the fellows react to the smugging 'casually' only on initial inspection. The boys all respond with silence when Athy tells them the real crime, and then a few pages later Stephen even remarks, "The fellows laughed; but he felt that they were a little afraid."

[Anonymous No.20479940]

>>20478361
I think you're right on with what you said, and I think that it is a commentary on Portrait. The dinner scene is one of the most important in Portrait because it is the origin of one of the biggest themes in the book (and perhaps the second-most obvious), nationalism. In the very opening section, Dante's two brushes, one for Parnell and one for Davitt, are of Stephen's earliest memories; Joyce wants to demonstrate that the color dichotomy to the political dichotomy is a key factor in his character's youth and subsequent development.

When you say "you have an impossible debate. You can't even discuss it," that is just right. One of the most resounding quotes that echoes not only in Portrait but across Joyce's ouvre is the quote "history is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake." The irreconcilable politics of his youth and development haunt Stephen all his days.

[Anonymous No.20481005]

Started Portrait, really good.
Are you going to start new thread?

[Anonymous No.20481197]

>>20481005
i think i'll keep the threads going until they're either archived or they reach their bump limits.

[Anonymous No.20481237]

>>20478794
June 16.

[Anonymous No.20481259]

>>20449136
Bros, why is Joyce so good

[Anonymous No.20481511]

>>20481259
He was unique, even in the modernist circle he was the outcast despite being the absolute centre of the movement. Despite his affluent upbringing, his education, his social circle of equally well educated and cultured friends he was totally in touch with the navvy, the docker, the cooper, the cleaner and the coachman. Joyce attempted to do what socrates did for philosopphy and bring this monster of high-brow literature, rotten with refrences and hints towards ancient greek theatre, religion, epics, medieval philosophy and epics and everything else down so the commoner could also enjoy it. He was actually shocked when people didn't understand Finnegan's Wake for example. If one read FW out however then you'll notice it becomes much more cohereant and the average Dubliner, be they northside, southside or between the canals would probably understand it. While other modernists were masturbating over some sort of intellectual dictatorship and wiping out the masses (that's you Mr. Yeats) Joyce wanted to raise them up or, in my own view saw them as his people, his equal and he did not sneer or scoff or even be condescending towards them and simply wrote for them.

[Anonymous No.20481567]

>>20481511
Then again, anon, he wrote to keep academics busy for centuries, while he joined the plebs laughing about fart jokes. Of course, he wasn't reclusive or exclusive about his art and his person, however, his closest friends were artists and the likes.

[Anonymous No.20481579]

>>20481567
>while he joined the plebs laughing about fart jokes
Just on a seperate note, where does this even come from? There's one fart joke in Ulysses and it's not even a joke from memory. I never understood this thing of Ulysses being about fart jokes.
>however, his closest friends were artists and the likes
His closest friend funnily enough was a fellow called Byrne, and as I'm sure you know he appears later in Portrait (I'll not spoil things for other people). Byrne would prove to be his closest friend throughout the years and I don't think they ever fought (which was weird for Joyce because by God he was a precious little bastard). Even his closest friends who were in literary circles: Hemmingway, Eliot, Pound etc. all noted that he never talked literature when they met up and instead would much rather talk about literally anything else. He was an enigma.

[Anonymous No.20481599]

>>20481579
I think the fart thing has to do with pop culture not caring about literature and only paying attention to few things like his letters to Nora

[Anonymous No.20481689]

>>20481599
yeah. Joyce was a very quiet and withdrawn man, and yet I saw a tweet the other day saying "if joyce on twitter he'd comment 'do it fart' under every image of a girl he came across." It's a gross mischaracterization. I appreciate the humour, but still.

[Anonymous No.20481856]

i've been meaning to ask: who are some modern-day authors that you guys enjoy? preferably people who are still alive and well.

[Anonymous No.20481906]

>>20481856
>tfw not a single author on my bookshelf who's still alive, even biographers and essayists.
I am a man of the past what can I say. Kenneth Clark is a non-fiction writer I like if that's any good. Amazing art historian, up there if not above Ruskin.

[Anonymous No.20482219]

i'm gonna post once again about his chapter, having re-read it. joyce captures exactly the way my train of thought ran on when i was a child. there's the little blasphemies, the misunderstandings, the many childhood curiosities we harbour. wow.

also, joyce's description of food is great. we saw it in The Dead, and we see it here, too:
>Why did Mr Barrett in Clongowes call his pandybat a turkey? But Clongowes was far away: and the warm heavy smell of turkey and ham and celery rose from the plates and dishes and the great fire was banked high and red in the grate and the green ivy and red holly made you feel so happy and when dinner was ended the big plum pudding would be carried in, studded with peeled almonds and sprigs of holly, with bluish fire running around it and a little green flag flying from the top.
i like joyce so much. there are no flaws in his writing. goddamn.

[Anonymous No.20482416]

>>20479760
I don't think it's depressing at all. More like bitter-sweet. Except for A Painful Case and, to a lesser extent, A Little Cloud.

[Anonymous No.20482757]

But behind because I just finished "The Dead". Is there a set chapter or chapters per day we should be following for Portrait, or will that be posted next thread? I'll probably just read as much as I can until then.

[Anonymous No.20482763]

>>20482757
schedule for A PORTRAIT OF THE ARTIST AS A YOUNG MAN
Chapter 1: 17,729 words
Chapter 2: 14,665 words
Chapter 3: 16,575 words
Chapter 4: 9,551 words
Chapter 5: 25,871 words

June 5-6: Chapter 1
June 7-8: Chapter 2
June 9-10: Chapter 3
June 11: Chapter 4
June 12-14: Chapter 5

[Anonymous No.20482834]

god i keep re-reading the first chapter. joyce is a GENIUS. his work's so funny and endearing and sentimental. I WISH I HAD EVEN A FRACTION OF HIS ABILITY!

[Anonymous No.20482945]

>>20482763
Nice. Thank you. I better catch up then. Looking forward to more discussion. "The Dead" was quite a powerful work and I'm excited for more as a Joyce novitiate.

[Anonymous No.20482965]

Chapter 2...
>The noise of children at play annoyed him and their silly voices made him feel. . . that he was different from others.
The memory of the argument over the poet Byron was entertaining. I didn't even feel bad that poor Stephen was left in tears at the end. Much like Stephen, I find myself thinking of him in this chapter without any emotion, least of all pity. Joyce tried, I think, a little too hard to paint Stephen the "awkward teen" to the point where he just blatantly repeats how emotionally detached he is. Am I missing the point? I get that it builds the character but fuck why the heavy hand? Stephen's cosmic, and religious confusion was barely touched in this chapter. How much of an incel is he gonna be if he can't even stop whining enough to listen to his father try and connect with him over stories? Jfc.
>Stephen heard, but could feel no pity.
And later when his father chats with some friends
>His mind seemed older than theirs: it shone coldly on their strifes and happiness and regrets like a moon upon a younger earth. No life or youth stirred in him as it had stirred in them.
It opened up Stephens mind for examination, sure, but honestly why is he such a faggot?
>Nothing stirred within his souls but a cold and cruel and loveless lust.
So this man is literally so horny that he is incapable of emotional connection? Fucking incel.
Again with his family
>He felt that he was hardly one of the blood with them but stood to them rather in the mystical kinship of fosterage, foster child and foster brother.
That should really speak for itself. Im not at all knocking Joyce, but knocking Stephen and his heavy handed "muh superiority complex" teenage ass.
Also the final scene whereupon he "couldn't" kiss the girl, am I retarded or was that all just a daydream?
If I'm missing the point then I'll go find the kiddie table to sit at.
TL;DR *Why* has Stephen become such an insufferable faggot? We've all been awkward teens but fucking christ...
Some non-bitchy highlights:
>Pride and hope and desire like crushed herbs in his heart sent up vapours of maddening incense before the eyes of his mind.
>The yellow gasflames arose before his troubled vision against the vapour sky, burning as if before an altar.
>How strange to think of him passing out of existence in such a way, not by death, but by fading out in the sun or by being lost and forgotten somewhere in the universe!

[Anonymous No.20483328]

>>20482965
ah! anon! we still have quite some time before the 7th!
although i suppose it's alright if you start early.

[Anonymous No.20483965]

bump

[Anonymous No.20484118]

>And he saw Dante in a maroon velvet dress and with a green velvet mantle hanging from her shoulders walking proudly and silently past the people who knelt by the water’s edge.
Someone help me out here. Did little Stephen really see Dante in velvet or was it his imagination?

[Anonymous No.20484191]

>>20484118
He definitely saw her walking around looking like a smug faggot because her priest told her ivy man bad

[Anonymous No.20484593]

>>20483328
Oh fuck lmao just looked at the schedule. My bad fellows! Please ignore the post

[Anonymous No.20484713]

>>20484191
Dante is a good heel. She had go away heat during that dinner scene.

[Anonymous No.20484787]

>>20484713
>Stone Cold Stephen Dedalus
>The Heartbreak Kid Buck Mulligan
>The Total Package Blazes Boylan
>Mrs Bloom's Baby Boy: Leopold Bloom
>The Genetic Freak Molly Bloom

[Anonymous No.20484949]

>>20484787
Literature and professional wrestling is the true gentleman's combination.

[Anonymous No.20485123]

>>20484949
Boxing + Judo > any other two combinations of martial arts

[Anonymous No.20485602]

First time reading Proust.

Just finished the first chapter, I enjoyed Joyce writing about childhood impressions.
Stephen seems to be naive or just coming of age, but he has incredible insights.
For example, he wonders why they laugh at him, but he also wonders what was the right answer, then he encounters his mortality and dwells on it, even imagines his own funeral mass.
But he has great insights like seeing poetry in a dictionary, or his perception of the universe which reminds me of the powers of 10 by Eames
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fKBhvDjuy0

Great chapter.

[Anonymous No.20485637]

>>20481259
I don’t know how he did it anon.
>>20481689
>quiet and withdrawn man
Yeah, seemed very polite from that one interview with the publisher of Ulysses. She said he never put on airs around anyone, even in the artistic French circles where he was sort of a celebrity.

[Anonymous No.20485643]

>>20481856
Cormac McCarthy who’s a Joyce nut. I can finally see why.

[Anonymous No.20485826]

>>20485602
Lol, put Proust instead of Joyce.

For those that read Dubliners, how does Portrait compare? Also are Joyce books a sort of trilogy? Is that why the readalong has these three books?

[Anonymous No.20485843]

>>20485826
Portrait is better than Dubliners imo. Dubliners has great allegory and very easy passages, but many parts of Portait surpass everything in Dubliners just on the basis of prose. I'll find some of my favorites tomorrow from chapter 2 and post them here. To me, while Dubliners is very good, Portrait is superior, especially in the more mentally mature chapters later in the story.

[Anonymous No.20487425]

Oh no you don't.

[Anonymous No.20487523]

>>20485843
>>20485826
It's a bit unfair to compare short stories with a decently-sized novel, but Portrait is really interesting as it is basically the development of Joyce himself, as well as his studies of literature, theology and philosophy.
There's also Stephen Hero, which is a draft of what later came to be Portrait that Joyce destroyed in part, in which he goes even further talking about his influences and becoming a writer in general.
For the turbo Joyce enthusiasts, there's also Finn's Hotel which is a draft of Finnegans Wake and is written in a more clear structure.

[Anonymous No.20487788]

>>20487523
>Finn's Hotel
oh damn. i'd heard of stephen hero, but never of finn's hotel. thanks! i'll look into it after ulysses!

[Anonymous No.20487909]

>knelt at his side respecting, though he did not share his piety.
Anybody else reminded of The Two Sisters from Dubliners?
>the big fortune he had squandered in Cork.
To me it seems like a common theme in this chapter will be "decline." Stephen is less curious now than he was as a child, more critical of his elders, and seems disillusioned with the world. He's still very much a young boy, though, as we see here:
>. . . of the subjects nearer their hearts, of Irish politics, of Munster and of the legends of their own family, to all of which Stephen lent an avid ear. Words which he did not understand he said over and over to himself till he had learnt them by heart: and through them he had glimpses of the real world about them. The hour when he too would take part in the life of that world seemed drawing near and in secret he began to make ready for the great part which he felt awaited him the nature of which he only dimly apprehended.

>He became the ally . . .
Do you think Joyce's use of the more remote "ally" in place of a more intimate word like "friend" is deliberate?


>But when autumn came the cows were driven home from the grass: and the first sight of the filthy cowyard at Stradbrook with its foul green puddles and clots of liquid dung and steaming bran troughs, sickened Stephen's heart. The cattle which had seemed so beautiful in the country on sunny days revolted him and he could not even look at the milk they yielded.
Again, decline.

>He wanted to meet in the real world the unsubstantial image which his soul so constantly beheld.
How does Joyce know so intimately what goes on inside of our hearts? Holy shit.

>He would fade into something impalpable under her eyes and then in a moment he would be transfigured.
HEY! This reminds me of that line from The Dead:
>His own identity was fading out into a grey impalpable world: the solid world itself, which these dead had one time reared and lived in, was dissolving and dwindling.
They're fairly different in their respective contexts. Both are very beautiful lines, though.

>Uncle Charles had grown so witless
Decline.
>A vague dissatisfaction grew up within him . . .
Cynicism again. A lot of this sort of stuff occurs again and again throughout the chapter, and one will find themselves asking, as they read, as >>20482965 did, "*Why* has Stephen become such an insufferable faggot?" I'll venture a guess: perhaps because his world has crumbled. Teenage angst messes with you a lot. This is literally Pixar's Inside Out, anons. lol.

> He was angry with himself for being young and the prey of restless foolish impulses, angry also with the change of fortune which was reshaping the world about him into a vision of squalor and insincerity.
>a vision of squalor and insincerity.
This is very interesting. Can someone explain to me why Joyce uses the word "insincerity?"
(1)

[Anonymous No.20487937]

>>20481856
I enjoy a lot of smaller press horror authors nowadays. I think a lot of contemporary weird fiction and horror still hold on covetously to entertaining prose—probably because of Lovecraft and Poe still being an almost universal influence on a lot of them. Clive Barker I'm a big fan of because of this. Recently, though, Richard Gavin, Mark Samuels, Michael Cisco, and John Langan I've liked.

[Anonymous No.20487938]

>>20487909
>Yet his anger lent nothing to the vision. He chronicled with patience what he saw, detaching himself from it and testing its mortifying flavour in secret.
Literally me.

Also, can someone please tell me what the scene with Ellen meant? Was the "skull suspended in the gloom of the doorway" calling Stephen effeminate? Did she just dunk on him inadvertently? My first assumption was that Ellen is supposed to be senile. Which again, represents decline, and also indicates how uncomfortable it is to hang out with his mother's family in Dublin. It's like "ahh. everything around me sucks and ahhghgh," I suppose.

>. . . he began to taste the joy of his loneliness.
I love Joyce, guys. The entire description of his meeting with E.C. is so wonderfully written, albeit there's a hint of irony in the tone here, it seems to me. Nevertheless, I'm going to study those few paragraphs over and over again. So good.
>long black stockings
Based

>But he did neither: and, when he was sitting alone in the deserted tram, he tore his ticket into shreds and stared gloomily at the corrugated footboard.
God. This line is my favourite in this chapter, for some reason. I LOVE Joyce so much. It's like he knows when to pull and push. He's like an expert fisherman. He's so naturally funny and sentimental. Goddamn. I ENJOY reading Joyce. I have to admit, many other great authors have failed to appeal to me, but Joyce is so, so good. He's such an easy read. I mean he's easy in the way that it never feels odious to go through his work. Nothing can distract me when I'm reading Joyce. I love him.

I'll stop posting now because these are turning into my essentially providing live commentary as I read, which I'm sure everyone is going to find irritating.
But all I have to say about this chapter is that a major theme in it is decline and regret and misery and loneliness.

[Anonymous No.20487998]

(Sorry for going off-topic here, guys! But I suppose it's a little worth it to talk about and maybe dispel the whole pretentious, insincere "no good literature past 1950" thing, )
>>20481906
Thanks for the suggestion, anon! I'm mostly looking for fiction, though. I have to agree; not reading contemporary fiction makes a lot of sense, considering older works have already been through the Great Filter of Time.
>Ruskin
As a side note: while Ruskin was unarguably a great and influential man, I have to say I do not agree with his opinions on art. Another amusing anecdote: I and a very famous artist talked about Ruskin, and he said that while he was a huge, huge fan of Ruskin, he (Ruskin) could be kind of a crank when it came to judgement and moralism, which was funny.
>>20485643
I've been meaning to read McCarthy. I liked that passage a lot, the one that gets posted here over and over (perhaps as a joke, but regardless, I like it). I think it's the opening to Suttree. The one that goes "Dear friend now in the dusty clockless hours of the town when . . ." I like it a lot.
>>20487937
"Weird fiction" seems like it would appeal to me. Thanks for your answers, guys!

[Anonymous No.20488288]

can a Christian explain this:
>—Here. It's about the Creator and the soul. Rrm ... rrm ... rrm ... Ah! without a possibility of ever approaching nearer. That's heresy.
>Stephen murmured:
>—I meant without a possibility of ever reaching.
>—O ... Ah! ever reaching. That's another story.

[Anonymous No.20488404]

>He left the stage quickly and rid himself of his mummery
heh.
>— But a lovely mummer! he murmured to himself. Kinch, the loveliest mummer of them all!

[Anonymous No.20488455]

>An American captain made me a present of them last night in Queenstown.
>Stephen heard his father's voice break into a laugh which was almost a sob.
—He was the handsomest man in Cork at that time, by God he was! The women used to stand to look after him in the street.
Sorry for the stupid question, but what do you think the significance of his sobbing here is?

[Anonymous No.20488519]

>>20487909
My guess about invoking the word "insincere" he's pulling from the same place he had Gabriel in "The Dead" latch to during his speech:
>“A new generation is growing up in our midst , a generation actuated by new ideas and new principles. It is serious and enthusiastic for these new ideas and its enthusiasm, even when it is misdirected, is, I believe, in the main sincere. But we are living in a sceptical and, if I may use the phrase, a thought-tormented age: and sometimes I fear that this new generation, educated or hypereducated as it is, will lack those qualities of humanity, of hospitality, of kindly humour which belonged to an older day."
Joyce has always had a good balance of humor, despair, and optimism in what I've read so far; melancholy mixed with cheekiness. I'm not sure about how he felt at the time of him writing these, but him having a concern for the loss of sincerity and genuine good-natured living in the generations to come seemed palpable. In all honesty I feel the same way now in the irony-sick world we've cultivated. Everyone is afraid to be sincere to the point of mental illness. That entire passage, by the way, is amazing. Hit me the hardest in the second chapter.
>He went once or twice with his mother to visit their relatives: and though they passed a jovial array of shops lit up and adorned for Christmas his mood of embittered silence did not leave him. The causes of his embitterment were many, remote and near. He was angry with himself for being young and the prey of restless foolish impulses, angry also with the change of fortune which was reshaping the world about him into a vision of squalor and insincerity. Yet his anger lent nothing to the vision. He chronicled with patience what he saw, detaching himself from it and tasting its mortifying flavour in secret.
The whole chapter has killer passages. I felt the first chapter was a bit loose, as necessary with the perception of Stephen's age, but he really turns it up here all over the chapter. Another good one:
>A film still veiled his eyes but they burned no longer. A power, akin to that which had often made anger or resentment fall from him, brought his steps to rest. He stood still and gazed up at the sombre porch of the morgue and from that to the dark cobbled laneway at its side. He saw the word Lotts on the wall of the lane and breathed slowly the rank heavy air. That is horse piss and rotted straw, he thought. It is a good odour to breathe. It will calm my heart. My heart is quite calm now. I will go back.

[Anonymous No.20488782]

>>20488519
>Everyone is afraid to be sincere to the point of mental illness.
you're right, anon. i've been struggling with sincerity, trying to become a better, more thoughtful, more intimate friend and brother and son.
irony has ruined us

[Anonymous No.20489183]

For anyone reading on an e-reader, check this out
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174940

Well proof-read ebook edition of (almost) all of Joyce, including poetry and letters. If you look through the OP's thread history he also has a variorum Ulysses ebook.

[Anonymous No.20489243]

>>20489183
Anon, I’m an idiot and can’t find a download link on it.

[Anonymous No.20489277]

>>20489243
It's at the end of the first post. Look for "attached files".

[Anonymous No.20489369]

>>20489277
Alright, thank you anon.

[Anonymous No.20489373]

>>20489183
Thank you so much! Will add this link to the next OP.

[Anonymous No.20489700]

Just want to tell you retards I've been busy with work so I'm behind but I'm making time for Ulysses

[Anonymous No.20490027]

>>20489700
It’s alright faggot, I didn’t get to read Dubliners, and I’ll prob fall behind during Ulysses

[Anonymous No.20490763]

Stay awake

[Anonymous No.20491479]

g- gah! not on my watch!

[Anonymous No.20491728]

>>20449136
Congrats on being the best thread on /lit/ and one of the only threads where people actually read. I don't usually do reading groups but reading this thread has inspired me to join you for Ulysses. I've been kind of seeing Joyce as some final literture boss and have been procrastinating reading him, so I'm glad to join you. Have a nice day anons and God bless

[Anonymous No.20491879]

>>20491728
anon, if you have the time, try catching up on A Portrait too! we're only 2 chapters in!

[Anonymous No.20492613]

>>20491728
>I've been kind of seeing Joyce as some final literture boss and have been procrastinating reading him
I feel the same, but I can't tell if I'm pretentious or not for feeling that way. I really do wish I had more time to read through Portrait again.

[Anonymous No.20493153]

bump.

[Anonymous No.20493194]

>>20493153
Did you read the chapter yet anon? Instead of a bump why not discuss?

[Anonymous No.20493221]

>>20493194
I'm >>20487909 and >>20487938; I'm not discussing any further because
>these are turning into my essentially providing live commentary as I read, which I'm sure everyone is going to find irritating.
Next chapter I'm going to be much more concise and coherent, hopefully.

[Anonymous No.20493257]

>>20493221
I don’t think it’s irritating anon. I think compiling your thoughts a little more might serve you better but it’s a discussion thread as much as a read-along so I say go for it! I’ve also posted a few large form replies with analysis, questions, and favorite highlights.

Tell me, teen angst; can it really cause someone to detach that awfully? He didn’t necessarily have a fucked up childhood. Why is he incapable of coping with the world? He can’t even find it within himself to be upset at those who bully him physically.
And also, if you know, I might be retarded, regarding the first chapter and the incident with his glasses, did he actually have glasses? I vaguely remember something after the knuckling coming up about him maybe not actually needing glasses.(Just something to chat about while others finish up the chapter)

[Anonymous No.20493400]

>>20493257
>can it really cause someone to detach that awfully?
It causes Stephen to. I can't confidently talk about precisely why. Stephen's a very sensitive, naturally brooding soul. Maybe "saturnine" is a good word.
>I might be retarded
Don't say that, anon! It's normal for your brain to skip over things sometimes when you read. It happens to everyone.
He did have glasses:
>He had been thrown by the fellow’s machine lightly on the cinderpath and his spectacles had been broken in three pieces and some of the grit of the cinders had gone into his mouth.
> . . . the doctor had told him not to read without glasses and he had written home to his father that morning to send him a new pair.

[Anonymous No.20493402]

>>20493257
Not that anon but, having gone through similar moodiness in my teens, I would guess it's his Catholicism at odds with his puberty. He exhibits a lot of irrational disgust and frustration about sex. One is when Heron teases him about Eileen:
>A shaft of momentary anger flew through Stephen’s mind at these indelicate allusions in the hearing of a stranger. For him there was nothing amusing in a girl’s interest and regard. All day he had thought of nothing but their leavetaking on the steps of the tram at Harold’s Cross, the stream of moody emotions it had made to course through him and the poem he had written about it. All day he had imagined a new meeting with her for he knew that she was to come to the play. The old restless moodiness had again filled his breast as it had done on the night of the party, but had not found an outlet in verse. The growth and knowledge of two years of boyhood stood between then and now, forbidding such an outlet: and all day the stream of gloomy tenderness within him had started forth and returned upon itself in dark courses and eddies, wearying him in the end until the pleasantry of the prefect and the painted little boy had drawn from him a movement of impatience.
Then when he found out his father was a bit of a degenerate clown because he carved "fetus" into a desk:
>But the word and the vision capered before his eyes as he walked back across the quadrangle and towards the college gate. It shocked him to find in the outer world a trace of what he had deemed till then a brutish and individual malady of his own mind. His monstrous reveries came thronging into his memory. They too had sprung up before him, suddenly and furiously, out of mere words. He had soon given in to them and allowed them to sweep across and abase his intellect, wondering always where they came from, from what den of monstrous images, and always weak and humble towards others, restless and sickened of himself when they had swept over him.
And again when an old man mentions his dad being a pussyhound:
>Another, a brisk old man, whom Mr Dedalus called Johnny Cashman, had covered him with confusion by asking him to say which were prettier, the Dublin girls or the Cork girls. —He’s not that way built, said Mr Dedalus. Leave him alone. He’s a levelheaded thinking boy who doesn’t bother his head about that kind of nonsense. —Then he’s not his father’s son, said the little old man. —I don’t know, I’m sure, said Mr Dedalus, smiling complacently. —Your father, said the little old man to Stephen, was the boldest flirt in the city of Cork in his day. Do you know that? Stephen looked down and studied the tiled floor of the bar into which they had drifted.
I went exactly through something like this, which is why this book is difficult for me to read. He finds no release from what he sees as a monstrous thing inside him until he meets that prostitute and, finally heeds to the words we all know so well here: have sex.

[Anonymous No.20493436]

>She passed her tinkling hand through his hair, calling him a little rascal.
oh MOMMY

[Anonymous No.20493451]

>>20493402
this is true, too. you framed better what i couldn't in my first post, about cynicism
>Then when he found out his father was a bit of a degenerate clown because he carved "fetus" into a desk
huh. i never saw it this way. could you elaborate on this?

[Anonymous No.20493473]

>>20493451
Not him but I feel maybe Stephen could feel his fall into debauchery before it took place and seeing that his father had gone through that phase disgusted and distanced him from his dad. That being said, Stephen is a whiny bitch for crying about his dad carving a desk lmao.
>FŒTUS

[Anonymous No.20493494]

>>20493473
the virgin stephen daedalus versus the CHAD simon daedalus

[Anonymous No.20493495]

>>20493402
I would like to add, save for his family life, that I went through such a similar path that it's the same right down to Catholic school, fits of irrational disgust and fear about the opposite sex and intimacy in general, all the way to the arms of a lady of the night to relieve some of what felt like I was going completely insane. Catholic school really ingrained in me a powerful fear of sex, but it was so strong I was irrationally angry towards girls and always sullen in school gatherings and any social events they might show up. This lasted a good decade for me. I also watched a bit of a Joyce documentary recently and I'm sure it's in his letters, but one of the things he mentions is he raided the brothels the moment he got the fuck out of Dublin.
>>20493451
It could be just me being too related to this part of the book, however, he has a very powerful moment where he imagines his father joking around with pals while carving that in his desk as a kid. Least I think so:
>They passed into the anatomy theatre where Mr Dedalus, the porter aiding him, searched the desks for his initials. Stephen remained in the background, depressed more than ever by the darkness and silence of the theatre and by the air it wore of jaded and formal study. On the desk he read the word Fœtus cut several times in the dark stained wood. The sudden legend startled his blood: he seemed to feel the absent students of the college about him and to shrink from their company. A vision of their life, which his father’s words had been powerless to evoke, sprang up before him out of the word cut in the desk. A broadshouldered student with a moustache was cutting in the letters with a jackknife, seriously. Other students stood or sat near him laughing at his handiwork. One jogged his elbow. The big student turned on him, frowning. He was dressed in loose grey clothes and had tan boots.
After that is the other passage I mentioned, where he walks through the quadrangle always wondering where this monstrous lust inside him came from, and Stephen probably assumes it was because of being he's his father's son. Or what this anon said
>>20493473. Imagine being so triggered by pussy and the burning in your loins that your dad carving something dumb into a desk 30 years ago makes you fly into an irration crisis and sexual emergency.

[Anonymous No.20493513]

>>20493495
>Imagine being so triggered by pussy and the burning in your loins that your dad carving something dumb into a desk 30 years ago makes you fly into an irration crisis and sexual emergency.
Ahhhh. I get it. Alright. This is very interesting to think about. I knew Stephen resented his father for his immorality, but I'd never considered the fact that the inscription would elicit such a response.

[Anonymous No.20493552]

ms paint drawing to keep the thread fresh and hip with the kids

[Anonymous No.20493553]

>>20493513
I think it's one of many occurrences that does it, but that trip with his father, the initial rejection or fear of confiding in a girl, the teasing and beatings by the other boys; all of it helps culminate into what is a great last few pages of that chapter. It really feels like he's going absolutely nuts during those last few amazing passages of him wandering around until he finds the mommy prostitute.
>His blood was in revolt. He wandered up and down the dark slimy streets peering into the gloom of lanes and doorways, listening eagerly for any sound. He moaned to himself like some baffled prowling beast. He wanted to sin with another of his kind, to force another being to sin with him and to exult with her in sin. He felt some dark presence moving irresistibly upon him from the darkness, a presence subtle and murmurous as a flood filling him wholly with itself. Its murmur besieged his ears like the murmur of some multitude in sleep; its subtle streams penetrated his being. His hands clenched convulsively and his teeth set together as he suffered the agony of its penetration. He stretched out his arms in the street to hold fast the frail swooning form that eluded him and incited him: and the cry that he had strangled for so long in his throat issued from his lips. It broke from him like a wail of despair from a hell of sufferers and died in a wail of furious entreaty, a cry for an iniquitous abandonment, a cry which was but the echo of an obscene scrawl which he had read on the oozing wall of a urinal.

[Anonymous No.20493572]

>>20493553
yeah. i remember the effect this scene had on me when i first read it. it's very interesting how joyce turns stephen's lust (i.e. need to have sex) into this great big terrifying monster, a character of its own, a compound of all the other emotions he's been feeling throughout the entire chapter.

[Anonymous No.20493597]

>>20493552
This amuses me.

[Anonymous No.20493685]

>>20493552
Kek!

>Mfw I find out dad was vandalized a desk and was attracted to women

[Anonymous No.20493822]

Ah yes I am late but chapter 2 has one of my favorite passages in all of Portrait.
>He passed out of the schoolhouse and halted under the shed that flanked the garden. From the theatre opposite came the muffled noise of the audience and sudden brazen clashes of the soldiers’ band. The light spread upwards from the glass roof making the theatre seem a festive ark, anchored among the hulks of houses, her frail cables of lanterns looping her to her moorings. A side door of the theatre opened suddenly and a shaft of light flew across the grassplots. A sudden burst of music issued from the ark, the prelude of a waltz: and when the side door closed again the listener could hear the faint rhythm of the music. The sentiment of the opening bars, their languor and supple movement, evoked the incommunicable emotion which had been the cause of all his day’s unrest and of his impatient movement of a moment before. His unrest issued from him like a wave of sound: and on the tide of flowing music the ark was journeying, trailing her cables of lanterns in her wake. Then a noise like dwarf artillery broke the movement. It was the clapping that greeted the entry of the dumbbell team on the stage.
I love this extended metaphor. Every word he chooses points directly back to the ark and ship imagery and it's just such a beautiful collection of words. I've sang its praises before but it really is nice.

[Anonymous No.20493834]

>>20493822
oh shit can't believe i forgot this passage. i love the ark metaphor too. there's something... gigantic about it.

[Anonymous No.20494385]

>>20493552
Do you also rollick and flrolic?

Anons, Joyce mentions Byron. Stephens favourite poet is Byron, did Joyce actually feel this way?
And are there books, essays about poetics and Joyce?

[Anonymous No.20494457]

>>20494385
Not him but I think a young Joyce idolised Byron but from all accounts it was Dante who was his favourite, if you count Dante and Byron as one of the same. His own poetry certainly wasn't like Byron's though.

[Anonymous No.20494589]

>>20494457
Ok thanks anon

[Anonymous No.20494754]

>>20493402
>>20493473
>>20493495
How did he know his father carved Fœtus into the desk? It could have been anyone.

[Anonymous No.20495049]

It's here.

[Anonymous No.20495168]

>>20495049
How do you like it anon?
Can you post a pic of the text

Also has anyone got this? This is the one I was thinking of buying
https://www.amazon.com/Best-James-Joyce/dp/1848702124/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=DVHYZY7T1WL4&keywords=best+of+james+joyce&qid=1654726468&sprefix=best+of+james+joyce%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1

[Anonymous No.20495186]

>>20494754
I assumed it also had his father's initials there signaling it was his desk. I believe they mention that's what they and the porter were looking for at the time. I don't have the text with me so I can't confirm. I could be wrong, of course.

[Anonymous No.20495245]

>>20495049
I'm reading ahead a LITTLE bit but the book seems good. It has an introduction about the libel case against it and the printing text itself is very readable and quaint. Here's a pic.
For certain, I won't spend time really digging into things while we read. I just want to enjoy the book. I can study it later.

[Anonymous No.20495248]

>>20495168
Wordsworth is 1922, so it has a bunch of typos

[Anonymous No.20495293]

>>20495245
I was thinking of picking up that edition as well! Are the pages cut in that annoying ass staggered style that most classics are in now?

[Anonymous No.20495306]

>>20495245
Meant for >>20495168
>>20495293
So far I haven't seen it cut like that, no. Everything is aligned to the top of the page and I don't see any cutting issues, if that's what you meant. But I will say the pages are thin and very soft like books from the 60s were. The kind where if you turn a page and put a finger in the middle of the top edge of the page it is liable to rip. If you have William Stoner hands like I do, you may rip or tear them if you're not careful. I don't mind it, though.

[Anonymous No.20495344]

>>20495245
>>20495306
Ok thanks anon.
>>20495248
Thanks for looking out anon, any versions you’d recommend.
Ideally a collection would be better but if there’s a single book version anons think it’s the best please put link/name

[Anonymous No.20496822]

bump

[Anonymous No.20496854]

>>20495344
>>20489183
I'll recommend this one. It's amazing. Great great find, anon

[Anonymous No.20496857]

>>20495049
Always enjoyed the cover on that edition

[Anonymous No.20497324]

>>20494385
theres a post on theinterntet about joyces favorite writers and he doesnt mention byron. he mentions shakespeare, dante, and the bible as some of his main favorites.

[Anonymous No.20497762]

bump. will finish reading and post about chapter iii later today.

[Anonymous No.20498092]

>>20496857
>>20495344
For this Ulysses book I'll also mention the binding is thin. I was reading the forward and just by holding a page down it started pulling out of the spine. If you want a sturdy book I don't recommend it. But it is nice looking.

[Anonymous No.20498304]

>It would be beautiful to die if God so willed. It was beautiful to live in grace a life of peace and virtue and forbearance with others.

Ok, anons, what did we think? Will his cleanliness last for long? This whole ride has been setting him up for a fall, was that it? What's his next step? How long can he resist temptation? This was a very dense chapter, ripe for deep discussion.

Ok so we start off with the whoring.
>It was his own soul going forth to experience, unfolding itself sin by sin, spreading abroad the balefire of its burning stars and folding back upon itself, fading slowly, quenching its own lights and fires.
That's gotta be about a dick.

>What did it avail to pray when he knew that his soul lusted after its own destruction.
Reminds me of some shit Augustine has said.

>it was strange too that he found an arid pleasure in following up to the end the rigid lines of the doctrines of the church and penetrating into obscure silences only to hear and feel the more deeply his own condemnation.
Boyish thrill at breaking the rules, perhaps? He has shown childish interest in rule-breaking before, but that episode with his father has turned me off to that idea.

That fucking sermon actually made even me afraid of hell for a moment. The entire thing is fucking gold and one of the best things I've ever read unironically.
And there it is;
>His eyes were dimmed with tears and, looking humbly up to heaven, he wept for the innocence he had lost.
Once he realized it wasn't too late, that's when he began to really panic. There was even a line somewhere where he was afraid to die before he confessed.
At only 16 I suppose the thought of going to an everlasting burning hell for having sex with a dirty streetwhore might make me feel sick in some way as it did him. Im glad there wasn't a scene where he tried to "turn" a whore good, seemed like something he'd do.

>Confession time!
All in all I'm really proud of Stephen for beating his demons and cleansing his soul. Maybe now he will focus on bettering his life. He asks some very childish questions pertaining to religion in the beginning of the chapter, though I don't knock him for it.
How do we think this will really change Stephen as a character? He resisted repentance for so long, can he now resist temptation the same?
Oh and also Joyce does mention Augustine at one point. Very obvious connection between the saint and our Stephen.

Here's some other little highlights I've made, but surely this isn't all of them. This chapter was gorgeous.
>In the wide land under a tender lucid evening sky, a cloud drifting westward amid a pale green sea of heaven, they stood together, children that had erred.
>The thought slid like a cold shining rapier into his tender flesh: confession.
>At last it had come. He knelt in the silent gloom and raised his eyes to the white crucifix suspended above him. God could see that he was sorry.
>It was easy to be good. God's yoke was sweet and light.

[Anonymous No.20498943]

>>20498304
>That's gotta be about a dick.
nah. nah. no way.

[Anonymous No.20499957]

>He hoped there would be stew for dinner, turnips and carrots and bruised potatoes and fat mutton pieces to be ladled out in thick peppered flour-fattened sauce. Stuff it into you, his belly counselled him.
I know this is partly meant to represent Stephen's gluttony and decadence, but I've been meaning to say this since Dubliners: Joyce's descriptions of food are like the literary equivalent of the way Ghibli films depict food. Yeah, Yeah. I'm a filthy weaboo. I'm sorry.

>The swift December dusk had come tumbling clownishly
>A cold lucid indifference reigned in his soul.
>his loveless awe of God

>—Well now, Ennis, I declare you have a head and so has my stick! Do you mean to say that you are not able to tell me what a surd is?
kek

>The blundering answer stirred the embers of his contempt of his fellows.
>He stooped to the evil of hypocrisy with others, sceptical of their innocence which he could cajole so easily.

>. . . for a bovine god to stare upon.
What exactly did Joyce mean by this?

>Mass will be on Saturday morning at nine o’clock and general communion for the whole college. Saturday will be a free day. But Saturday and Sunday being free days some boys might be inclined to think that Monday is a free day also. Beware of making that mistake. I think you, Lawless, are likely to make that mistake.
>—I sir? Why, sir?
kek

I love these lines especially; they are, in the context of the narrative (unsurprisingly; this is Joyce, after all) a very accurate depiction of a sinner's soul as he is forced externally to come to terms with his own immorality:
>Stephen’s heart began slowly to fold and fade with fear like a withering flower.
> . . .
>Stephen’s heart had withered up like a flower of the desert that feels the simoom coming from afar.

>—Remember only thy last things and thou shalt not sin for ever.
>His soul, as these memories came back to him, became again a child’s soul.

Continuing from what I just said about sinners and fear:
>The faint glimmer of fear became a terror of spirit as the hoarse voice of the preacher blew death into his soul.
This is fucking amazing:
>He felt the deathchill touch the extremities and creep onward towards the heart, the film of death veiling the eyes, the bright centres of the brain extinguished one by one like lamps, the last sweat oozing upon the skin, the powerlessness of the dying limbs, the speech thickening and wandering and failing, the heart throbbing faintly and more faintly, all but vanquished, the breath, the poor breath, the poor helpless human spirit, sobbing and sighing, gurgling and rattling in the throat.
Compare Stephen's conception of his death in chapter III to that in chapter I.

>The stars of heaven were falling upon the earth like the figs cast by the figtree which the wind has shaken.
>And this day will come, shall come, must come; the day of death and the day of judgement.

[1]

[Anonymous No.20500176]

>In the wide land under a tender lucid evening sky, a cloud drifting westward amid a pale green sea of heaven, they stood together, children that had erred.
Children that had erred.

>the battle-worn mail armour of angels.
Joyce packs so much into such few words.

>Rain was falling on the chapel, on the garden, on the college. It would rain for ever, noiselessly. The water would rise inch by inch, covering the grass and shrubs, covering the trees and houses, covering the monuments and the mountain tops. All life would be choked off, noiselessly: birds, men, elephants, pigs, children: noiselessly floating corpses amid the litter of the wreckage of the world. Forty days and forty nights the rain would fall till the waters covered the face of the earth.
>It might be. Why not?
I can't. There's no way to sit down here and discuss this rationally or academically or analytically, guys. I feel like all everyone in this thread can do, collectively, after reading this, is sit down and lean against a wall in silent awe. That is all I can say.

>the sinful thought conceived in an instant: non serviam: I will not serve. That instant was his ruin.

>the fire of hell, while retaining the intensity of its heat, burns eternally in darkness. It is a neverending storm of darkness, dark flames and dark smoke of burning brimstone,

> . . . but each lost soul will be a hell unto itself . . .

>And at every step he feared that he had already died, that his soul had been wrenched forth of the sheath of his body, that he was plunging headlong through space.

>The voices that he knew so well, the common words, the quiet of the classroom when the voices paused and the silence was filled by the sound of softly browsing cattle as the other boys munched their lunches tranquilly, lulled his aching soul.

>All had died: all had been judged. What did it profit a man to gain the whole world if he lost his soul?

>A tremulous chill blew round his heart, no stronger than a little wind, and yet, listening and suffering silently, he seemed to have laid an ear against the muscle of his own heart, feeling it close and quail, listening to the flutter of its ventricles.

>The daylight without was already failing and, as it fell slowly through the dull red blinds, it seemed that the sun of the last day was going down and that all souls were being gathered for the judgement.

>pœna damni

> . . . eternity would scarcely have begun.

>Stephen, his tongue cleaving to his palate, bowed his head, praying with his heart.

>Faces were there; eyes: they waited and watched.

>He desired with all his will not to hear or see. He desired till his frame shook under the strain of his desire and until the senses of his soul closed. They closed for an instant and then opened. He saw.

>Creatures were in the field; one, three, six: creatures were moving in the field, hither and thither. Goatish creatures with human faces, hornybrowed, lightly bearded and grey as indiarubber.

[2]

[Anonymous No.20500252]

>His eyes were dimmed with tears and, looking humbly up to heaven, he wept for the innocence he had lost.

> By seeing or by thinking of seeing. The eyes see the thing, without having wished first to see. Then in an instant it happens. But does that part of the body understand or what? The serpent, the most subtle beast of the field. It must understand when it desires in one instant and then prolongs its own desire instant after instant, sinfully. It feels and understands and desires. What a horrible thing! Who made it to be like that, a bestial part of the body able to understand bestially and desire bestially? Was that then he or an inhuman thing moved by a lower soul? His soul sickened at the thought of a torpid snaky life feeding itself out of the tender marrow of his life and fattening upon the slime of lust. O why was that so? O why?
>>20498304 THIS is the penis.

>The end: black, cold, void waste.

>Consciousness of place came ebbing back to him slowly over a vast tract of time unlit, unfelt, unlived.

>He could stand up, put one foot before the other and walk out softly and then run, run, run swiftly through the dark streets. He could still escape from the shame. Had it been any terrible crime but that one sin! Had it been murder! Little fiery flakes fell and touched him at all points, shameful thoughts, shameful words, shameful acts. Shame covered him wholly like fine glowing ashes falling continually. To say it in words! His soul, stifling and helpless, would cease to be.

>The ciborium had come to him.


I felt at the very beginning of Chapter III that the prose and vocabulary and tone were darkly optimistic. It was reminiscent of Chapter I, more sensitive, more childish, more fearful, more sincere, more sad.
And my feelings were validated entirely after Stephen's confession. The tone of the narration returns completely to the sincere naivety of Chapter I.
Stephen's been washed clean of his sins. He begins anew. A new life.
Although of course I don't think this is going to last very long.

[3; end of Chapter III]

[Anonymous No.20500374]

Ye are still reading that degenerate west brit bastard? It would be more in yeer line to learn a bit of gaeilge and find out what it means to be a real Irishman (something Joyce (a traveller surname btw) never discovered)

[Anonymous No.20500425]

>>20497324
>>20498092
Thanks anons

[Anonymous No.20500514]

>>20500374
Quiet please

[Anonymous No.20501444]

>>20495168
>>20495248
>>20495344
Wordsworth is 1932, not 1922, so it's one of the more accurate ones. Personally I recommend anything of the Random House 1961 edition, of which >>20495049 is.

[Anonymous No.20501785]

>>20501444
Thank you anon

[Anonymous No.20502735]

what did you guys think of chapter 3? i might have to look up the church closest to me and go confess

[Anonymous No.20503283]

>>20502735
>i might have to look up the church closest to me and go confess
I feel the opposite, like, never going to church again. The whole priest's monologue about hell and damnation, about merciful God condemning his own creations to eternal suffering for mistakes they commited in their life was sick to me. Trying to make up little boys' minds to their side using fear as a tool. I hope our boy will see through disgusting tricks of church and start living on his own

[Anonymous No.20503554]

As a reminder to everybody, we're taking one day to read Chapter IV (11 June) and three to read Chapter V

[Anonymous No.20503568]

>>20502735
It actually drove me a little into anti-religious establishment frenzy. I had a conversation about Christianity with a coworker after reading this and he said Christianity was a slave religion. I thought he was right at first, and then I thought he was only right about the Catholic, fire and brimstone, "little boy you're going to hell" stuff. Other denominations are a lot more fluff and love heavy. I think that is a healthier approach to religion than supplication.

[Anonymous No.20503694]

>>20503568
In third grade of Catholic school, after a year or two of hearing sermons like in the book, I was so terrified of going to confession the first time I pissed all over myself in the booth.

[Anonymous No.20503718]

>>20503283
>>20503568
i was half-joking; it was meant to be a funny way to bump the thread
>>20503694
damn. i'm sorry to hear that, anon.

[Anonymous No.20504340]

is emma E____C____? did they have sex?

[Anonymous No.20504934]

can't wait for ulysses to begin

[Anonymous No.20505651]

>>20504934
Me either anon. Have you read it before?

[Anonymous No.20505752]

>>20505651
I read the first three chapters. Enjoyed Proteus very much, and had begun Calypso, but some stuff came up and I had to drop it. Excited to pick it up again. How about you, anon?

[Anonymous No.20506020]

>>20505752
Nah but I’m excited to. Looking forward to finishing up “Portrait” with you fellows and continuing Stephens story

[Anonymous No.20507180]

>my brother in christ
Didn't know the father was a zoomer

[Anonymous No.20508524]

>>20507180
my dear little brothers in christ

[Anonymous No.20509803]

>Stephanorbourous
Really glad he turned bloomer

[Anonymous No.20509932]

>By means of ejaculations [...] he stored up ungrudgingly [...]
kek

[Anonymous No.20510088]

>>20509932
And “prayer” anon, and “prayer”

[Anonymous No.20510228]

>>20510088
why do you think i omitted "prayer" by use of ellipsis ([...]), anon? it was a deliberate misinterpretation!

[Anonymous No.20510795]

>>20510228
I think we all got the joke, I was emphasising your omission.

[Anonymous No.20510906]

>>20510795
my bad, my bad.

but unironically: do you suppose joyce was being deliberate with his phrasing? i mean, "stored up?" that had to have been a hidden joke or something

[Anonymous No.20511073]

>>20510906
Def. I see the whole chapter as a pros and cons list of religion and church. I mean when he starts dwelling on how to punish himself and comes up with ideas like smelling piss, or stay in an uncomfortable position, I can’t help but laugh because mentally that’s fucked up but physically it’s hilarious compared to what the flagellants do.

>I’m reading this chapter
>my dog barks
>get distracted for few secs
>back to reading, see word I don’t get
>wtf is this word? No context to what it could mean
>reread, how do you say this word?
>break word down
>”closes” maybe closet
>”hut” ah dwelling place
>what does it have to do with mouth?!?
>mfw Close Shut. Fuck I’m stupid

[Anonymous No.20511176]

> . . . carried his arms stiffly at his sides like a runner . . .
Okay this reminds me of Chapter I. I thought Joyce was memeing, but what the fuck? Did runners unironically run with their arms at their sides?

[Anonymous No.20511200]

>>20511073
FUCK this happened to me too

[Anonymous No.20511311]

CHAPTER 1: BIRTH; INNOCENCE
CHAPTER 2: DECLINE; CORRUPTION; THE FALL
CHAPTER 3: REBIRTH; REDEMPTION
CHAPTER 4: STRUGGLE, DOUBT
what do u think anons

[Anonymous No.20511405]

I'veboro beenboro lovingboro readingboro Joyceboro withboro allboro ofboro youboro, brosboro.
Who else here /boro/pilled?

[Anonymous No.20511521]

>Stephanos
>Bous Stephanoumenos
>Bous Stephaneforos
>Stephanos Dedalos

[Anonymous No.20511543]

>>20511311
chapter four is also about his RISE out of doubt. but i agree for you for the most part, anon!

[Anonymous No.20511546]

>stephen is such an autist he walks away in the opposite direction for an hour when he sees a girl
is he possibly /ourguy/?

[Anonymous No.20511574]

>>20511405
Someone explain the boro suffixes from Stephen's sister.

[Anonymous No.20511580]

>>20511546
when was this?

[Anonymous No.20511590]

>>20511200
Kek

[Anonymous No.20511784]

>>20511574
I'm pretty sure it's just a language game the kid was playing. Something similar to Igpay Atinlay (Pig Latin)

[Anonymous No.20511814]

>>20511580
at the end of chapter 4

[Anonymousboro No.20511822]

>>20511574
>heboro isn'tboro inboro onboro theboro jokeboro
ngmiboro

[Anonymous No.20512757]

Bake the next bread! Quick, before we all perish!

[Anonymous No.20512958]

Bump