/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20442591]

>sees posted book picrel
>Reads
>Can't find a good counter argument against his thesis

Yeah, David got a good point, to be fair, antinatalist is actually pretty reasonable, can see alot of seething coming from normals breeders.

[Anonymous No.20442609]

>wtf why can’t I get laid…damn…life kinda just sucks..

[Anonymous No.20442619]

>hmm if life inherently sucks maybe I should kill myself

[Anonymous No.20442622]

>>20442609
>Y-you're an INCEL!

Nice argument, bud.

[Anonymous No.20442624]

>>20442591
Whats his thesis? Personally, I'm pretty happy with life.

[Anonymous No.20442627]

>>20442619
>Lmao just kill urself

Literally nigger tier argument, breeders are fucking dumb, lmao.

[Anonymous No.20442628]

>Life is le bad.

[Anonymous No.20442634]

Life was bad, but then Morbiud got released.

[Anonymous No.20442637]

>>20442624
Basically life is a one huge gamble and is imoral to bring new life into this world knowing that things can be pretty awful and bad. Definitely agree with him.

[Anonymous No.20442638]

>>20442627
If it's better to not exist why do you not?

[Anonymous No.20442641]

You've already posted this same thread twice before. Pretty sad how desperate you are for you's.

[Anonymous No.20442644]

>>20442628
>Suffering is LE GOOD

[Anonymous No.20442646]

>>20442637
But, like with any gamble, you have various degrees of control over your life. And if it ever gets so bad then you can literally kill yourself at any time. Seems like a sweet deal to me.

[Anonymous No.20442653]

>>20442644
>>The suffering "exist".

[Anonymous No.20442654]

>>20442646
Me? Yeah, my child? No, don't like the idea of gambling with someone's life.

[Anonymous No.20442661]

>>20442653
>Suffering exist so ... Is good Ok!

[Anonymous No.20442679]

>doing things..... LE BAD!

[Anonymous No.20442683]

>>20442679
>Bro, just deal with suffering even if it isn't meaningful, like a kid with terminal cancer, just... DEAL WITH IT OK!

[Anonymous No.20442687]

>Can't find a good counter argument against his thesis
"I learned that all moral judgments are 'value judgments,' that all value judgments are subjective, and that none can be proved to be either “right” or “wrong.” I even read somewhere that the Chief Justice of the United States had written that the American Constitution expressed nothing more than collective value judgments. Believe it or not, I figured out for myself—what apparently the Chief Justice couldn’t figure out for himself—that if the rationality of one value judgment was zero, multiplying it by millions would not make it one whit more rational. Nor is there any “reason” to obey the law for anyone, like myself, who has the boldness and daring “the strength of character” to throw off its shackles. . . .I discovered that to become truly free, truly unfettered, I had to become truly uninhibited. And I quickly discovered that the greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block, and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable “value judgment” that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these “others”? Other human beings, with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more to you than a hog’s life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than for the other? Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as “moral” or “good” and others as “immoral” or “bad”?

[Anonymous No.20442701]

>>20442654
'ate me parents as people
luv em.for giving me the miracle of life so I could do and experience tons of cool shit
Simple as.

[Anonymous No.20442702]

>>20442687
>Bro, it's all subjective, lmao

Sheesh

[Anonymous No.20442714]

>>20442701
Good for you, but don't gamble with someone life, simples as, can't understand why people don't see the idea of doing a gamble with a kids life is pretty fuck up.

[Anonymous No.20442721]

>>20442591
It's simply a byproduct of complete immersion into the technical society.

[Anonymous No.20442728]

>>20442721
>Bro, just don't think to much, just live like a animal.

[Anonymous No.20442754]

>>20442591
Imagine being so low that you think current life is unbearably cruel.

[Anonymous No.20442800]

>>20442591
>Can't find a good counter argument against his thesis
https://philpapers.org/rec/DEGIIW

[Anonymous No.20442808]

>>20442754
ouch

[Anonymous No.20442825]

>>20442754
Yeah, but what about a kid that was born with some terminal illness? Seems like a fair deal, right?

[Anonymous No.20442900]

>>20442591
https://www.abolitionist.com/anti-natalism.html

>Benatar's policy prescription is untenable. Radical anti-natalism as a recipe for human extinction will fail because any predisposition to share that bias will be weeded out of the population. Radical anti-natalist ethics is self-defeating: there will always be selection pressure against its practitioners. Complications aside, any predisposition not to have children or to adopt is genetically maladaptive. On a personal level, the decision not to bring more suffering into the world and forgo having children is morally admirable. But voluntary childlessness or adoption is not a global solution to the problem of suffering.

>Yet how should rational moral agents behave if - hypothetically - some variant of Benatar's diagnosis as distinct from policy prescription was correct?

>In an era of biotechnology and unnatural selection, an alternative to anti-natalism is the world-wide adoption of genetically preprogrammed well-being. For there needn't be selection pressure against gradients of lifelong adaptive bliss - i.e. a radical recalibration of the hedonic treadmill. The only way to eradicate the biological substrates of unpleasantness - and thereby prevent the harm of Darwinian existence - is not vainly to champion life's eradication, but instead to ensure that sentient life is inherently blissful. More specifically, the impending reproductive revolution of designer babies is likely to witness intense selection pressure against the harmfulness-promoting adaptations that increased the inclusive fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment of adaptation. If we use biotechnology wisely, then gradients of genetically preprogrammed well-being can make all sentient life subjectively rewarding - indeed wonderful beyond the human imagination. So in common with "positive" utilitarians, the "negative" utilitarian would do better to argue for genetically preprogrammed superhappiness.

[Anonymous No.20442901]

>>20442591
>I feel bad so life bad.

[Anonymous No.20442904]

>>20442654
I do sympathize with what you're saying, but certainly if these arguments are as powerful as we are supposing then our children will see them and, depending on their circumstances, take the appropriate action.

[Anonymous No.20442937]

>>20442904
Will they? How do you know? Huge gamble it seems, life can be pretty bad.

[Anonymous No.20442952]

>>20442937
It isnt really a gamble, unless you for some reason think a) they will be significantly dumber than you, or b) they won't take up your influence. Both of these are far more likely to happen than not. And if they still manage to fail somehow? Then they deserve to suffer thr consequences of their own inadequacy, you've no blame at that point. Now what anti-natalist bro?

[Anonymous No.20442962]

>>20442952
Seems psychopathic view, strongly advise that you don't have kids, if you do, than I petty your child.

[Anonymous No.20442973]

>>20442962
Why?

[Anonymous No.20443013]

>>20442591
You will not get an argument against that doesn't fit some major fallacy, mosy ad hom.

[Best e-reader No.20443142]

>>20442591
Why the hell is there a low-IQ antinatalism thread every fucking day now? It's a philosophy that appeals solely to children, retards, and the weak. The refutation is as follows (even an antinatalist can understand it, it's so simple):

Antinatalism presupposes that utilitarianism is true
Utilitarianism is false
Therefor, antinatalism is false.

NOW CLEAN THIS UP YOU INCOMPETENT JANNIES.

[Anonymous No.20443234]

>>20443142
>utilitarianism is false
How can a method for maximizing and outcome be judged like as though it were a truth statement?

That's like saying gardening is false.

[Anonymous No.20443383]

>>20442721
>he thinks the only counterpart to technical worship is degradation of man via self-anthropomorphication.

[Anonymous No.20443397]

>>20442591
>suffer
>still enjoy life as a whole and wish to see it continue, so that I can spend time nurturing the things I love and helping them in ways that I can
woah, wasn't as hard to refute anti-natalism as I thought

>>20443142
I assume it's just one or two anons constantly making AN threads for easy (You)s and to feed their inflated egos, because arguing their philosophy with strangers online makes them feel "correct"

[Anonymous No.20443519]

For me it's Christian Antinatalism

[Anonymous No.20443821]

>>20443519
Based. Christianity is the number one justification for antinatalism. Why on earth would I birth someone who might send themselves to hell? What kind of asshole would that make me?

[Anonymous No.20443860]

>>20443821
Not enough Christians think through the ethical implications of birth. Assuming that Massa Damnata is true, by giving birth, you more or less brought someone into the world destined for eternal torment.

[Anonymous No.20443862]

>>20443860
>you more or less brought someone into the world destined for eternal torment.
dick move

[Anonymous No.20444045]

>>20443862
Be fruitful and multiply. The eternal fire needs more kindling.

[Anonymous No.20444060]

>>20442627
Why not just kill yourself if life is so horrible

[Anonymous No.20444086]

>>20444045

or:

"I need you to follow your evolutionary imperative to reproduce because otherwise I can't dominate you and force you to play my bullshit game. By the way, you just made me up and endowed me with a vindictivness, a """benevolence""" and a sham non-contradiction between these two that it takes a human to imagine, project onto a fiction, and maintain as a mental construct and cultural doctrine despite all possibilities for reasonable thought." -t. god

[Anonymous No.20444129]

>>20442591
why are anti natalist so adamant about preaching their self hate to others. Let alone people that don't care. Leave me alone.

[Anonymous No.20444925]

>>20442609
Sounds about right.

[Anonymous No.20445020]

>>20442591


If you claim you believe in this sort of thing and dont kill yourself youre a disingenuous coward.

Stop being such a whiny little faggot.

[Anonymous No.20445805]

>>20442591
I enjoy my life, but I agree with this dude. I make 100k a year and have access to all the models I want. I'm living the life. But when COVID happened this year I got into a fight with my father made threats against him and was 302'd into a mental hospital. The shit I saw in there....... People living with schizophrenia. It was like something out of a nightmare. Throw in all these mass shootings and all the cartel violence you see in the world and it's like wait a second...... My life might be cool, but there are people out there literally being beheaded with rusty spoons.

Not bringing a child into this shit, yaknawhatimsayin??

[Anonymous No.20445813]

>>20442644
>AHHHHHHH I AM SUFFERING
>WHAT DO YOU MEAN I AM A MENTALLY WEAK LOSER
>NOOOOO LIFE SUCKS YOU NORMIE

[Anonymous No.20445839]

>>20442644
Yes.

[Anonymous No.20445855]

I like being alive

[Anonymous No.20445878]

And still none of the anti-natalists are able to define what suffering is in a non-circular way.

[Anonymous No.20445883]

>>20445878
My suffering is self-evident. It needs no proof or definition.

[Anonymous No.20445895]

>>20445883
Pathetic lmao

[Anonymous No.20445917]

>>20442900
So the answer is to genetically engineer humans to never be discontent
Despite all the florid language and idealism about elevating humanity's emotional lot, this is still a neoliberal dystopian wet dream of the sort conspiracists would attribute to figures like Schwab or Soros

[Anonymous No.20445942]

>>20445895
Your denial of my suffering is a form of suffering you cannot understand.

[Anonymous No.20445957]

>>20445942
Mentally weak. I bet you break down crying when the vending machine eats your change

[Anonymous No.20445966]

>>20445942
Yeah man, totally.

[Anonymous No.20445994]

>>20445805
This
No one really takes a big picture look either at the present, or through the ages. The history of Germany from Teutoberg Forest onward is enough to make one realize the sheer pointlessness and brutality of human existence, nevermind things happening now, wherever you live. The small horrors that don't recieve as much attention as large scale genocide can be just as awful, the deeds parents are capable of enacting upon their own children, people with no qualms about torturing strangers, etc
The whole argument is boiled down to "my life sucks wish i werent born" and "kys my life is awesome" focusing squarely on the selfish and limited individual aspects

[Anonymous No.20446107]

>>20444045
>>20444086
More "pretend these aren't rules that promote mindless adherence to a higher authority and production of more servants and that my word isn't passively supported by the state"
I suspect there's a reason so many "heresies" involved antinatalist rhetoric or worse, eschewed earthly authority

[Anonymous No.20446110]

>>20442714
Don't you think a terminally ill child would have experienced love and happiness at all? To experience life in any form is a gift; even of that life is short and tragic.

[Anonymous No.20446139]

>>20446110
>I'm sorry I can't administer your morphine today, Billy, but I need you conscious enough to teach you the concept of "Amor Fati"

[Anonymous No.20446254]

>>20442637
>>20442654
>>20442937
>>20442962
You are either 13 or retarded.

[Anonymous No.20446260]

>>20446139
It's not a gamble if 99% of the population isn't suffering as you say. The odds are extremely low. I would gamble in that casino. The payoffs are huge.

[Anonymous No.20446327]

>>20446260
I'm not the guy you were talking to originally, I just can't see how brief moments of happiness in the life of a terminally ill child could ever outweigh their feelings of alienation due to their otherness, early knowledge of their own mortality, and physical incapabilities effectively preventing them from having a somewhat normal childhood
It just sounds like something the parent of a terminally ill child would say to themselves to cope with the fact that their flawed genetics cursed their offspring to a short life of inconsequential misery
Even disregarding instances like that, it feels irresponsible to bring a child into a world where, unless one can afford homeschooling, they will be indoctrinated and molded into a servile drone placated by a heavy diet of digital distraction in the best case scenario, nevermind everything that comes after the end of public schooling, nevermind the impending economic troubles that are on the horizon

[Anonymous No.20446411]

>>20446254
You are literally mentally a child. I wonder if you'd repeat this at the tail-end of a painful cancer?

Isn't it funny how it's so often the 'optimists' who recant of their former follies? Almost as if the marginal cases tend to be the ones which induce misery.

[Anonymous No.20446748]

>>20445917
Why is it dystopian?

[Anonymous No.20446957]

>>20445855
unbiblical 3/5

[Anonymous No.20446975]

>>20446748
Pleasure is not a Darwinian adaptation. I do not want to corrupt my offspring.

[Anonymous No.20447023]

>>20446748
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1619629/

It is proposed that happiness be classified as a psychiatric disorder and be included in future editions of the major diagnostic manuals under the new name: major affective disorder, pleasant type. In a review of the relevant literature it is shown that happiness is statistically abnormal, consists of a discrete cluster of symptoms, is associated with a range of cognitive abnormalities, and probably reflects the abnormal functioning of the central nervous system. One possible objection to this proposal remains--that happiness is not negatively valued. However, this objection is dismissed as scientifically irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.20447464]

>>20442687
In short, just be an asshole theory

Also right to freedom itself is a value judgement. Your freedom ends with a bullet to your chest

[Anonymous No.20447503]

>>20444060
Humans have evolved self preservation. If I did not have self preservation in my psyche or no aversion to pain I wouldve killed myself long ago. That would the logical choice.

Not bringing humans into this shithole world is the next best choice

[Anonymous No.20447556]

>>20446748
It's easy to imagine such enforced happiness could render the population mindless sheep that would accept by the books slavery from a higher authority. It honestly seems like either disingenuous parody or the setting of a YA cyberpunk novel - cartoonish materialist utilitarianism taken to ridiculous extremes.
Sure no one is unhappy, but neither are the animals waiting for slaughter.

[Anonymous No.20447572]

>>20442646
Let me toss a knife at you, anon. Yes, it’s a gamble. But like any gamble, you have a certain degree of control over the outcome. And if it does stab you, if it ever hurts so horribly that you wish I’d never thrown it at you, then you can just kill yourself at any time. Seems like a sweet deal, /to me/.

Point being, you’re still thinking about yourself, and not about the imaginary person who doesn’t exist yet.

[Anonymous No.20447591]

>>20442687
>I quickly discovered that the greatest obstacle to my freedom
...is being part of a system. Fuck off with that “respecting other’s rights” thing, yes it’s inhibiting but compared to the fact that you’re bound to the laws of reality? Fucking nothing.

This is a massive cope from an unreflective asshole, too terrified to accept the monster they recognise in themselves.

[Anonymous No.20447636]

>>20444129
> antinatalists don’t want people to suffer.
> you chucklefucks are causing suffering
> ???

[Anonymous No.20447648]

>>20447572
>you’re still thinking about yourself
That's pretty much every post in this thread. My favorite is >>20442701 wherein anon replies to a post talking about their theoretical child's future, then makes it about his enjoyment of life despite his disdain for his parents.
A byproduct of our hyper-individualistic society, I suppose.

[Anonymous No.20447670]

>>20445878
It’s failure. Read more.

>>20445994
But it’s a bigger issue than even the human aspect, which we focus on only because we’re braindead monkeys who have trouble sympathising with people of a different skin colour, let alone other animals or “inanimate” objects. We mow our lawn and we don’t understand that we’ve committed mass murder. We spring clean and wipe out a dust mite civilisation. Pick up an object, and it’s suffering. Would it have moved, if you hadn’t moved it? You’ve made it fail. You’ve made it suffer.

The real problem, is that the universe is dying.

[Anonymous No.20447741]

>>20447670
If you want to get into the theoretical weeds by way of extreme reasoning, that's one way to look at things, sure.
If you actually do feel that way, then obviously suicide is your best course of action seeing as how you're increasing entropy by way of your biological processes continuing to run; I'd rather just not cum inside my wife and make another person.

[Anonymous No.20447818]

>>20447741
Doesn’t matter whether I die now or in a thousand years, entropy will catch up. We’re fucked, unless someone puts the car in reverse.

[Anonymous No.20447893]

>>20447572
Your analogy simply doesn't work because the reply you posted to wasn't discussing a child but his own self.

[Anonymous No.20447941]

>>20442591
Subjective assertion about life sucking, lack of consent =/= no consent, lack of subject for a priori moral assumption, personal cowardice and moral inconsistency, failure in recognizing biological signals, etc.
tl;dr KYS.

Seriously, didn't we have this exact thread with this exact OP once already? Is he retarded or spamming just because?

[Anonymous No.20448000]

>>20442973
>don't want to dump child into world and tell them it's their problem
>what's the problem bro, just dump them into the world and tell them it's their problem.

[Anonymous No.20448016]

I had a prof assign this book. His take was that it was immaculately reasoned, but through the psychotic conclusions it illuminates the flaws of the foundation it stands on: utilitarianism

[Anonymous No.20448036]

>>20442714
idk sounds like a them problem

[Anonymous No.20448189]

>>20448000
You have failed to understand the argument. Very disappointing.

[Anonymous No.20448323]

>>20447893
How does that make a difference?

[Anonymous No.20448938]

>>20442679
>>20442661
>>20442653
>>20442644
>>20442628

Discourse

[Anonymous No.20448969]

>>20442637
Only cognitively libtard white people will ever be convinced of this though. Benatar is therefore just promoting the niggerization of the world. Maybe that's what he really wants.