/lit/bros... it's over, can't refute this nigga, antinatalist is the ultimate black pill.

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Anonymous Wed May 25 17:39:02 2022 No.20421621 [Reply] [Original]

/lit/bros... it's over, can't refute this nigga, antinatalist is the ultimate black pill.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:40:12 2022 No.20421624 File: 24 KB, 306x500, 41bKSxrlL5L.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:41:32 2022 No.20421631 >>20421621 >can't refute this nigga to be is to experience and to feel, even if it's only suffering to be is inherently preferable than to not be because, well, you are nigga don't even have to look at the early life segment

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:41:39 2022 No.20421632 >>20421621 Yeah, it literally can't be argued against been looking for a way for years. Pessimist is a mind parasite and I hope to one day to overcome it but idk

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:42:33 2022 No.20421635 >>20421621 um why don't you just kill yourself then sweetie. also why should we care about suffering. fuck em children, i'll do as i please. there is nothing wrong in being born to a life of pain.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:42:51 2022 No.20421636 >>20421631 Yeah, but is it right to impose life on someone else

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:43:54 2022 No.20421639 >>20421636 my ability to impose it makes it right. kill yourself if you don't like the life i've imposed on you.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:44:55 2022 No.20421644 >>20421639 animal brain thinking

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:46:50 2022 No.20421650 >>20421621 just be yourself

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:47:43 2022 No.20421654 >>20421621 Benatar is absolutely Reddit tier.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:49:27 2022 No.20421660 File: 27 KB, 321x475, collid=books_covers_0&isbn=9780262016988&type=.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20421632 It is very ably argued against in this book.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:50:45 2022 No.20421666 >>20421621 go on reddit childfree and antinatalist and tell me those people are the height of morality and virtue

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:51:43 2022 No.20421668 >>20421621 The most brutal book cold rational book doesn't even need pretty language to make its case

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:51:48 2022 No.20421669 >>20421644 yeah and so you are stuck here. what you gonna do about it brain boy.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:54:21 2022 No.20421681 >>20421669 Work to ruin the environment so that life will never exist again. You?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:54:39 2022 No.20421685 >>20421666 >Satan is a natalist Well color me surprised.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:55:17 2022 No.20421687 >>20421644 >animal brain thinking >have sex and start a family and live life >ascended 0.1% elder god tier thinking >I wish I was dead :( Gee, anon, when you put them side-by-side like that it's really hard to chose.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:55:32 2022 No.20421688 >>20421681 cool by me. if you can do it you can do it.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:56:05 2022 No.20421691 >>20421681 Good job.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:57:58 2022 No.20421701 >>20421666 as opposed to what? the school shooting piss bottling poltards on here?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:57:58 2022 No.20421702 File: 61 KB, 600x549, Ow_the_edge.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20421681 >so that life will never exist again

Anonymous Wed May 25 17:59:08 2022 No.20421707

>>20421687
This was my answer to antinatalism.

I couldn't argue with any of the logic. The thing that ended it for me is the impossibility to go against one's programming and at all enjoy life. Therefore the answer is pure ignorance and selfish breeding.

Why fight it?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:00:22 2022 No.20421714 >>20421707 explain the "logic" of antinatalism and i'll kick it in the balls for you

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:01:02 2022 No.20421720 >>20421707 Kind of at the same point That and the fact that life may never go extinct

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:01:18 2022 No.20421721 >>20421621 this dude shares a name with Pat Benatar i understand why he wouldn’t want to live

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:02:35 2022 No.20421730 >>20421714 Mars is doing great No suffering life doesn't have to exist

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:02:53 2022 No.20421733 >>20421701 no, as opposed to literally anyone you know in real life

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:03:27 2022 No.20421736 >>20421714 I am the arbiter of creating a life. If I do, I know it will suffer. I know that the bad in life is worse than the good is "good." So I can decide to spare the bad for possibly countless generations from this decision point.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:03:59 2022 No.20421739 >>20421730 why is suffering bad?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:05:21 2022 No.20421747 >>20421739 Because the qualia is unpleasant what else has to matter?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:06:48 2022 No.20421757 >>20421736 >I know that the bad in life is worse than the good is "good." it's that simple

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:07:21 2022 No.20421760 >>20421739 fuck off idiot

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:08:55 2022 No.20421770 >>20421739 Negative valence states are to be avoided in nature. Its the most important directive on your Robocop HUD. You can rationalize it. Say "it made me stronger" even though no such consolation is guaranteed.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:09:43 2022 No.20421774 >>20421635 >Le kill urself, lmao Nigger tier logic, read the book, nigger

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:10:43 2022 No.20421777 >>20421720 Its the one mechanism Zapffe either never considered or purposely failed to mention; Defiance. Continue life in defiance of the consequences.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:11:01 2022 No.20421779 >>20421660 >Just have children because... Just have it ok!

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:12:28 2022 No.20421785 >>20421721 brainlet-tier, this song is great https://youtu.be/I1VMuTpnzF4

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:13:05 2022 No.20421788 >>20421779 b..b..but j..jesus said so bros... j..jesus... trump ftw!

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:13:16 2022 No.20421790 File: 1022 KB, 1000x750, mars is doing great.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20421730 >Mars is doing great Source? >>20421779 >I trust this author with my life but not this one because... Just because, ok!

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:14:07 2022 No.20421794 >>20421779 read the goddamn book

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:16:53 2022 No.20421811 >>20421790 >Source? the Adeptus Mechanicus.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:18:42 2022 No.20421820 File: 29 KB, 425x474, 51q5oaxTDwL._AC_SX425_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20421811 >Adeptus Mechanicus. Woah, this is cool

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:21:02 2022 No.20421837

>>20421820
Yeah, 40K is pretty cool.

I've never played the game or read the novels but I listen to Leuten's lore videos to get to sleep. I was close to ordering a starter kit to paint some minis but had a major existential crisis. Its been a year, but now that I'm recovering I might just order those minis today.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:24:20 2022 No.20421851 >>20421777 Yeah, I've read him but seriously what end game did he have in mind? I'm not going to have children but the people down the street will have 7 Do you really think we're going to end life on Earth with philosophy?

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:25:11 2022 No.20421857

>>20421736
if you are interested in this shit the only thing you are an arbiter of is shooting spunk in paper towels.
> I know that the bad in life is worse than the good is "good."
you are an animal with a dysfunctional brain. broken goods. complex systems don't come out right all the time. there is no suffering. plenty of people who are happy no matter the conditions. and plenty of you shitheads who would not be happy with anything because some sociobiologic entity located physically inside your cranium is not working. i've never seen an antinatalist with even a bit of viscera. not a single adult man.
think it as just another disease. nobody is suggesting antinatalism on the basis of people getting cancer or being born retarded it's just you depressed fucks trying to rationalize things with that collection cockroaches you have instead of brain. if you had integrity you should be wying for eugenics. kill the unhappy. abort them before conception.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:25:35 2022 No.20421858 File: 582 KB, 1000x750, mars is doing gre-.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20421811 In English? OH SHIT WHAT IS THA-

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:26:12 2022 No.20421860 >>20421837 Go for it, dude. I have a friend that plays and it looks like a lot of fun hope you're managing to stay above the existential crisis

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:26:43 2022 No.20421861
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>>20421621
https://www.abolitionist.com/anti-natalism.html

>Benatar's policy prescription is untenable. Radical anti-natalism as a recipe for human extinction will fail because any predisposition to share that bias will be weeded out of the population. Radical anti-natalist ethics is self-defeating: there will always be selection pressure against its practitioners. Complications aside, any predisposition not to have children or to adopt is genetically maladaptive. On a personal level, the decision not to bring more suffering into the world and forgo having children is morally admirable. But voluntary childlessness or adoption is not a global solution to the problem of suffering.

>Yet how should rational moral agents behave if - hypothetically - some variant of Benatar's diagnosis as distinct from policy prescription was correct?

>In an era of biotechnology and unnatural selection, an alternative to anti-natalism is the world-wide adoption of genetically preprogrammed well-being. For there needn't be selection pressure against gradients of lifelong adaptive bliss - i.e. a radical recalibration of the hedonic treadmill. The only way to eradicate the biological substrates of unpleasantness - and thereby prevent the harm of Darwinian existence - is not vainly to champion life's eradication, but instead to ensure that sentient life is inherently blissful. More specifically, the impending reproductive revolution of designer babies is likely to witness intense selection pressure against the harmfulness-promoting adaptations that increased the inclusive fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment of adaptation. If we use biotechnology wisely, then gradients of genetically preprogrammed well-being can make all sentient life subjectively rewarding - indeed wonderful beyond the human imagination. So in common with "positive" utilitarians, the "negative" utilitarian would do better to argue for genetically preprogrammed superhappiness.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:28:05 2022 No.20421865 >>20421621 I fucking hate antinatalists

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:28:24 2022 No.20421866 >>20421857 It's called depressive realism Come back after you've lived, sweetie

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:28:25 2022 No.20421867 >>20421621 I read an excerpt where he cites the debunked stat about 1/4 women getting raped in their lifetime as a piece of evidence for life being awful and I knew without having to read anymore it was trash, intellectually speaking.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:29:04 2022 No.20421869 >>20421861 >Just breed because more people = Le good! No

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:29:43 2022 No.20421870

>>20421857
>muh countless generations
is also a fucking retarded take, akin to boomers investing or some shit "your investements will double every seven years for the rest of eternity". the entire future of history extrapolated from the last 25 years. no such thing outside of your head until they actually materialize.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:29:56 2022 No.20421872 >>20421736 But you're denying the good as well

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:30:13 2022 No.20421873 >>20421861 Here's a technological bandiad for the horror of existence! NO

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:31:20 2022 No.20421874 >>20421865 And the root cause of your hatred is not that they are fucked up unhappy people (frequently true), but that they are actually right.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:32:13 2022 No.20421875 >>20421874 No, it's just the former.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:32:24 2022 No.20421878 >>20421872 He pre-emptively addressed that very point in the very post that you replied to. Your reading comprehension is very poor.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:33:41 2022 No.20421880 >>20421874 No, it's because they're weak and pathetic

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:36:09 2022 No.20421889

>>20421874
>Heh. You don't hate me because of all these obvious reasons that make unlikable. You're just seething because you can't admit I'm right about me being an unlikable asshole.
Credit where it's due, the only thing anti-natalists have succeeded in is never fucking growing up.

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:36:22 2022 No.20421892

>>20421857
>you are an animal with a dysfunctional brain
Yeah, I know, that's more or less what I've admitted to.

I can trounce each and every one of your hollow platitudes about life. Its easy. None of you ever make a grounded point, which is why I said the logic is irrefutable.

Its just that my solution is that logic is a poor servant in these matters. You can't win against the antinatalist argument, none of you ever come close. All you can do is run away from it and join the circus.

Therefore the solution to antinatalism to not consider logical arguments.

>>20421861
I've read Pearce and its an unworkable solution. Best to stop trying to find a sci-fi pie-in-the-sky solution to all this now.

Trust me, whatever you think you know, antinatalists and pessimists have considered it ten times over and found it wanting.

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:36:47 2022 No.20421894

>>20421866
reality is just the illusion that is maintained for the longest time. fuck with this sophmoric "more accurate appraisal of the world". in what sense? how many more decimals do you get with you mdd instead of a normal brain? your spatial awareness becomes shittier once you start taking ssris? oh it's a qualitative difference, i see. what about schizos then? maybe they 'really' see the world as it is. get on the schizoprenic realism train sweetie. don't call me bak before you have been psychotic.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:42:06 2022 No.20421913 >>20421892 Irrational Nietzschean is the only response that works for me

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:42:08 2022 No.20421914 >>20421892 trounce em then nigga.

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:43:37 2022 No.20421921

>>20421860
>hope you're managing to stay above the existential crisis
Thanks, I'm dealing with it. The important thing, i think, is to acknowledge its intrusion on one's life and not attempt to find a one-size-fits-all solution.

That's why religion is so popular. Best balm against existential terror there ever was. How could you feel bad if you think there's a metaphysical Optimus Prime up there ultimately guaranteeing your safety?

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:44:53 2022 No.20421926

Whenever someone says "just kill yourself" in an antinatalist thread the response is always that that's not the same as never existing. I can understand that, but I don't get what reason an antinatalist has to not kill themselves. Sure it would be better to never have been born, but then wouldn't the next best thing be to just end it now? If life is inherently suffering, and the bad will always outweigh the good, then you would be better off killing yourself because that would prevent you from suffering any more.

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:45:33 2022 No.20421927

>>20421914
I have. I do. There is no point.

You tell someone they've built an unworkable narrative around justifying suffering, and they double down.

You tell them they're applying subjective anecdotal "solutions" to greater more-nuanced problems, and they double down.

Its beating your head against the fucking wall.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:46:46 2022 No.20421935 >>20421926 Good ol' animal terror of death

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:48:18 2022 No.20421940

>>20421926
>what reason an antinatalist has to not kill themselves
Because it addresses nothing of the problem with live-birth and only serves to bolster their evaluation of life. Why would one bring something into this world that is forced by some idiotic policy of honesty to destroy themselves?

Its about as philosophically sound as all "gotcha" arguments. Good for updoots, but not for logic.

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:49:31 2022 No.20421943

>>20421621
I’ve refuted it three times. I see the Holy Spirit through my children and it’s incomparable.
Meanwhile my anti-natalist coworker is gay, on antidepressants and hates the kids in his neighborhood. And yet he clings to the scientific dogma that the point of life is to pass on your genetic material.
“Ye shall know them by their fruits.”

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:53:20 2022 No.20421957

>>20421927
maybe you've just built an unworkable narrative around not dealing with suffering. they are both just as arbitrary positions. explain to me how you evaluate that the good outweighs the bad. what data do you base it on? is it some shitty utilitarian calculi? 500 birthday parties = 1 rape. your gut feeling? how do you account for bias? and why the only solution to that supposed disparity is not continuing this rigmarole?

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:59:15 2022 No.20421967

>>20421957
Because pleasure and pain are not equal partners. You don't need to crunch the numbers to know that both a hedonic null state and a hedonic positive state will not be missed by the non-existent, but a negative state will be lamented by all who exist.

I can't state it more clearly. If it it doesn't "click" for you, maybe it never will, maybe it never should.

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:01:35 2022 No.20421975

I just listened to this: https://youtu.be/ETfiUYij5UE Due to my extraordinary ability to enjoy things this created more good than the entirety of human suffering combined until this point thus changing the balance of good and bad and refuting all antinatalist arguments.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:08:00 2022 No.20421995 >>20421967 why is the lamentation of negative state by the existing worth more than existing enjoying their positive states? the non-existent don't get say either way.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:09:01 2022 No.20422002 >>20421975 based utilitarian socrates

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:11:44 2022 No.20422011 File: 153 KB, 495x495, 1637921012268.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20421621 Are you a Christian? No. Are you burning in hell because of this? Yes. Go to confession and stop listening to Satan's whispers evil coward.

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:13:13 2022 No.20422019

>>20421995
Suffering states and pleasure states are not equal. An agent strives to never encounter a suffering state but is never in need of a pleasure state. An absent agent not incurring pleasure is preferable to an existing agent encountering suffering.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:13:32 2022 No.20422020 >>20421660 Image source? Without the text obviously. That is a very beautiful image.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:19:29 2022 No.20422042 life isnt that bad. suffering is not that bad. there, refuted. i grew up poor in a run down trailer park and i am too mentally and physically ill to live a normal life, but im still happy i got to experience what i did

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:21:55 2022 No.20422053 File: 87 KB, 999x769, 1646595253445.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20421975 Based. Thanks for saving the world.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:22:40 2022 No.20422056 If existence is nothing but suffering with no hope and bringing more life into existence would continue said suffering, why not make sure you won't go back on your word? Cut your dick off, bleed out and die.

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:22:49 2022 No.20422058

>>20422019
i'm not arguing for a non existent agent at any point so i don't know why you keep bringing that up. my question is why your notion of life sucking trumps my notion of life being good. you are correct that biological systems generally value avoiding losses over possible gains, for good evolutionary reasons. but this is an aggregate trend, ie. animals still take risks all the time and the gains have no upper limit either, so one could argue for the existance of calculated risks. and avoiding suffering risks more suffering as well. you might be thirsty and crack your head in the staircase when getting water.

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:24:27 2022 No.20422062

>>20422058
>i'm not arguing for a non existent agent at any point so i don't know why you keep bringing that up
Because we're arguing antinatalism.

Seriously, this is fucking incredible. I have to assume its b8 or sarcasm at this point. There's no way you're really this daft.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:25:24 2022 No.20422067 >>20421631 Said the faggot with 0 physical pain. I hate you life lovers with 0 chronic pain.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:26:14 2022 No.20422070 >>20422067 Then read Nietzsche

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:26:26 2022 No.20422073 >>20421632 >>20421668 >>20421681 >>20421688 >>20421747 >>20421770 >>20421760 >>20421779 >>20421788 >>20421866 >>20421870 >>20421874 The logic is simple. >>20422011

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:27:14 2022 No.20422076

>>20421681
Genuinely, if that's your attitude to life then *literally kill yourself*. I don't say this out of science, I say it as the ULTIMATE Black Pill. Why? Because when you are dead you have by default defeat everything, you have defeated existence, you have defeated the only thing that matters to you: your consciousness.
The ultimate Black Pill act is to write about the benefits of suicide and then actually do it. Anti-Natalists are literally boring hypocritical midwits. "Life is terrible and pointless. I literally cannot wait to no longer exist because life is literally pointless. But oh no - I won't kill myself because deep down I KNOW that life is literally bliss, even during some of its lowest points. It's better than oblivion, right? But shhhhh don't tell anyone, I have some losers to convince that life is meaningless, so pretend that I hate it even though I don't, okay?"

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:28:05 2022 No.20422079
File: 157 KB, 700x1690, thefuck.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>20422042
Why is it that anti-natalists are all these privileged middle class anyway? I had literal cancer and I think I enjoy life more than these fags, what went wrong with them?

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:28:47 2022 No.20422082

>>20421666
This just further proves the point you shouldn't have kids.
>Kid becomes faggot antialist
>Kid becomes school shooter
>Kid gets killed by said school shooter
>Kid becomes trans,or faggot
>Kid becomes Incel
>Kid becomes obese america
Why roll the dice.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:28:48 2022 No.20422083 >>20422076 *out of scorn, not science. Damn auto-correct.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:30:05 2022 No.20422094 >>20422079 It's not that it's bad but that it's pointless

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:30:16 2022 No.20422095 >>20422062 my point is that i'm not arguing for the unborn at any point. i don't place any value in them missing out on life. yet you still keep repeating your heuristics and don't approach my actual line of questioning here.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:31:16 2022 No.20422099 >>20422082 >bad things might happen in the future >therefore we shouldn't do things

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:31:30 2022 No.20422100 >>20422082 Do you think a parent has no influence on how their child turns out?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:32:26 2022 No.20422103 >>20422095 >my point is that i'm not arguing for the unborn at any point And at this point you're not arguing antinatalism. You're not even in the waiting line of the parking lot of the ball field.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:32:44 2022 No.20422106 >>20422094 Why are Westerners like this?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:33:07 2022 No.20422109 >>20422099 No,no, bad things will happen. >>20422100 How do you stop a bullet from hitting your child through the skull while you're at work? How do you stop cancer.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:34:08 2022 No.20422112 >>20422079 Did you enjoy the cancer?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:36:04 2022 No.20422124 >>20422042 >but im still happy i got to experience what i did I think your mental illness might have something to do with it.

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:38:13 2022 No.20422133

>>20421926
>If life is inherently suffering, and the bad will always outweigh the good, then you would be better off killing yourself because that would prevent you from suffering any more.
Make it easy for people to take their lives in a safe manner and I bet you would see a tick up in suicides. Jumping in front of a train is painful, and the animal brain will to live is hard coded.

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:38:23 2022 No.20422136

>>20422019
>An agent strives to never encounter a suffering state but is never in need of a pleasure state.
Well, that's literally bullshit. Organisms actively seek out pleasure all the fucking time, and if the reward outweighs the risk they'll actively pursue suffering. Think of animals actively seeking other males to fight and kill for the reward of procreation with a female. If they strove to NEVER suffer, their genetic lineage would disappear with them.

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:39:48 2022 No.20422141

>>20422076
My thoughts exactly. I heard before the "western people should stop having kids as our lifestyle is not sustainable and we destroy the planet"
But following this logic completely, the actual solution to save the planet is to commit suicide to prevent further destruction, and they won't

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:43:27 2022 No.20422150

>>20422103
okay, help me out here. your thesis boils down to bad outweighs the good among the existing today and always. therefore no point in bringing in more kids. you can't really elaborate on your methodology, all you repeat are these "my (real) mortage payments are more worse than the crypto gains made by angels therefore bad outweighs the good" -constructions. from logical standpoint your argument is no different to the christian arguing for getting children being good because god says so. where is the vaunted irrefutable logic?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:44:47 2022 No.20422152 >>20422109 check out the fatalist. and yet he tries to change the world by not having kids.

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:45:32 2022 No.20422158

>>20422133
>is hard coded
So is the desire to procreate in the majority of functional humans. If life is pointless, then why not breed anyway? It's all pointless, so there's literally no reason to not to breed. If literally nothing matters then why worry whether the child will undoubtedly suffer at various points in its life? It doesn't matter. Why? Because the joys of life are treasured by those who experience them, and they outweigh the suffering.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:46:35 2022 No.20422162 >>20422158 No you don't understand. I feel bad. Bad > Good so my argument wins yours.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:48:10 2022 No.20422168 Pessimism shills need to be banned on sight.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:48:19 2022 No.20422170 >>20422109 You don't stop it. But that's Life: a largely random path that we can help shape but never truly control. Some people enjoy the ride, other decide to piss their pants and whine about it.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:51:30 2022 No.20422178 >>20421621 OP is a fag once again

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:51:32 2022 No.20422179 >>20422162 Yes, that's exactly how arguments are won.....if you have no argument.

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:53:52 2022 No.20422187

>>20422011
The existence of Hell is a good reason to be an antinatalist actually. Why have kids when being born presents the risk of going to Hell? Christians will often talk about how narrow the path to salvation is and how few people make it, yet have the arrogance to assume their little Timmy will be special and overcome the odds. No, by having children you are gambling with other beings’ souls in a universe where the house always wins.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:54:42 2022 No.20422192 >>20422179 Irrefutable logic. You guys are just animals and don't understand my pain. Depression is positively correlated with intelligence. Read Pascal.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:55:42 2022 No.20422195 >>20422187 one soul in heaven is worth like 76k souls in hell though

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:56:44 2022 No.20422202 >>20421621 antinatalism assumes utilitarianism is true utilitarianism is false --- therefore antinatalism is false

Anonymous Wed May 25 19:58:00 2022 No.20422206

>>20422187
What if God Wills His subjects to breed? If you worship Him, then you're obligated to follow His teaching and not question it. You can spend the life of your kids making them good followers- if they fail, tough luck for them. At least YOU did the right thing by God, and that's all that matters to them. Look at Abraham and how quick he was to sacrifice his son for God.
So therefore, your argument is defeated.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:58:05 2022 No.20422208 >>20422202 Antinatalists don't even understand utilitarianism, see >>20421975

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:00:39 2022 No.20422221 >>20422208 >antinatalists don't understanding a basic philosophical concept imagine my shock

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:15:34 2022 No.20422291

>>20422206
That doesn’t defeat the argument, as the argument that Benatar makes is that no one benefits by being born. You’re essentially saying “Yeah well who cares if my kid goes to hell, at least I got mine in the end.” Such a dumb fucking subversive boomer mindset.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:22:36 2022 No.20422309 >>20422291 >applying utilitarianism to christian ethics surely you are not this stupid

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:23:01 2022 No.20422313 I won't be thinking about my future children when banging a woman sorry I'm sure my father didn't think of me and I'm alright

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:23:42 2022 No.20422315

>>20422112
Itself? No.
Yet I'm a more mature person than I was before I got cancer, and I enjoy my days more being conscious of the fact I am mortal instead of going day by day in a fog. This is not to say I've fully made my peace with death, the truth is I unironically love living, and of course I would want to live longer — but I won't compromise my wellbeing and health just to live longer either.

Now let me throw that back at you — have *you* suffered to any similar level? The vibe is no, you are rather insulated unlike that poor anon.
>>20422109
>How do you stop cancer.
By continuing research in immunotherapy and several other sciences, like has been done for decades at this point?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:24:36 2022 No.20422316 >>20422291 Have you heard of a "moral agent"?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:26:29 2022 No.20422321 >>20421770 >>20421760 >>20421747 Sorry, why is suffering bad again? I must've misread your posts because I didn't see a reason or argument given

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:29:11 2022 No.20422326 >>20422321 Two or more identical particles with half-integer spins cannot occupy the same quantum state within a quantum system simultaneously, therefore suffering is bad. QED

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:35:24 2022 No.20422348

>>20422309
>>20422316
What makes antinatalism work so well is that cut through religious lines and can be argued for regardless of whether or not any given religion is assumed. It works in secularism because the not-yet-existent benefit from NOT suffering and it works in religion because the not-yet-existent are not shackled to eternity as the existent are. Antinatalism cannot be refuted on its own premises, which is why people try to cheat and use some other framework to circumvent antinatalist logic.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:40:06 2022 No.20422369 >>20422348 Unironically fucking retarded. Take ethics 101 and come back when you can classify ethical systems.

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:56:30 2022 No.20422415
File: 268 KB, 640x898, 1637716505124.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>20421636
You are not imposing life "onto someone" because they did not exist to be acted upon. Creating a life is not an act upon that life, the life only exists as a result of the action which at its onset cannot have been directed at a being which only exists at its completion.

>>20421621
>>20422348
The arrogance and ignorance of utilitarians never ceases to amaze me. The BS moral calculus you believe sits at the heart of reality isn't real, you probably imagine it to be real because you have been separated from any serious moral conception so you think in the most basic possible terms of bad = """harm""" and good = """pleasure""" and then assert that the moral "goal" ought to be maximizing """pleasure""" and minimizing """harm""".
The fact that this thought process apparently logically concludes with the physical destruction of humanity is evidence to any sane person of it's fundamentally flawed nature, but likely because you know nothing else you cling to it while lamenting that it "can't be argued against" because you ignore or too ignorant to currently grasp the multitude of valid arguments against it. Makes those genocidal AI sci fi stories more plausible, if an AI was programmed by some "scientific morality" utilitarian antinatalist basedjack it might very well try to wipe out humanity like a retard.
Additionally antinatalists uniquely like to handwave away valid arguments with ad hoc BS, but that's a "strength" of utilitarianism generally. """Harm""" is such a vague meaningless moral concept you can argue anything at all is harmful. You probably think feeding someone is harmful because le life is bad and feeding could postpone death or some nonsense like that.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:56:40 2022 No.20422416 >>20422348 imagine being this stupid >Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:59:55 2022 No.20422427

Funny how christians will use the threat of Hell (eternal suffering) for having heterodox metaphysical views and then have to gall to ask “well what makes suffering bad? can you prove suffering is bad?” Literally by your own threats you’ve demonstrated that this can universally be recognized to be true. You know suffering is bad, but you’ll situationally deny it to wiggle out of dealing with the core of antinatalism.

Anonymous Wed May 25 21:01:49 2022 No.20422431

>>20422348
>Antinatalism cannot be refuted on its own premises
It's premises are false so this is meaningless.
>Premise 1: the sky is green
>Premise 2: things that are green taste like chocolate
>conclusion: the sky tastes like chocolate
My position literally cannot be defeated on it's own premises, the conclusion follows inevitably from the premises therefore my argument cannot be refuted!

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 21:02:01 2022 No.20422433 Suffering is good

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 21:05:05 2022 No.20422447 >>20422427 I'm not a Christian and I hate antinatalists

Anonymous Wed May 25 21:15:45 2022 No.20422487

>>20422427
>the threat of Hell (eternal suffering) for having heterodox metaphysical views
Why bother talking about a religion of which the only "knowledge" you have comes from low effort cultural memes?
The Christian position is that everyone deserves hell as righteous punishment for their actions, but that God in His mercy made a way for sinners to be atoned by faith in Jesus Christ who took the sins of His people upon himself and received the punishment for them. His people are those who have faith in Him and submit to Him as Lord.
This is not simply a "metaphysical view" you have to intellectually affirm. "The demons believe, and tremble." Faith has more to do with trust and loyalty than "belief" in the modern intellectual sense of believing a simple statement of fact.
About suffering, you seem to be equivocating the eternal suffering of Hell with "suffering" more generally. If by "suffering" you mean any kind of negative experience, then no suffering of any kind is not an inherently bad thing in the Bible. God applies all sorts of "suffering" as a form of discipline to His people, this is compared to a father disciplining his son for the son's benefit (also used as evidence of the Christian's new relationship to God which has become intimate and personal as a child to their Father). Additionally suffering which is more like simple punishment is right to inflict in response to sin. It's not bad to execute murderers, that is a good and just punishment for their crime (though maybe an antinatalist would not consider this suffering as life=bad so maybe killing = good? I don't get why so many antinatalists are against murder if life is inherently suffering and they're all atheists so being murdered means existence/suffering ceases)

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 21:15:51 2022 No.20422488 better to never have been born? better for whom? there is no "me" before my conscious experience

Anonymous Wed May 25 21:19:15 2022 No.20422503

I believe in God and think antinatalism is super gay for that reason but it makes even less sense for staunch atheists
>Bro we're just mindless animals
Yeah? Then do what mindless animals do, how many dolphins or beavers or dragonflies have you seen being little bitches and killing themselves

Anonymous Wed May 25 21:20:17 2022 No.20422506
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I am glad I was born and glad I'm still alive. Even if my life got so bad I wanted to an hero I don't think I would conclude my life as a whole was better off not lived. It's just that period that is seemingly too awful to live with that doesn't erase the good times. I have been through many dark times in my life but I look back and see how I have grown from them.

Anonymous Wed May 25 21:34:18 2022 No.20422575

>>20422487
There’s a lot I could say here, but 4chan has a character limit and there’s only so many hours in a day. Ultimately, you have far, far more radically different axioms that you work off of than Benatar and I do. So different that in order to address your points one by one I would need to do an entire analysis of Genesis and all the convoluted and contradictory bullshit exposited there (especially as it relates to Adam and Eve, the identity and placement of the serpent, and the ultimate nature of God’s omniscience and its (the omniscience itself) relationship to human free will). Instead I will leave you a series of questions to ponder (I’m not actually expecting an answer to any of these, I’ve never gotten one):
>How do you hold that we humans are inherently sinful (read: evil) and that an all good God would want us to multiply? If this is to our benefit, then why is an all good being benefitting evil beings?
>It is often said that God allows for finite evils to occur in order to bring about greater goods. Why not just bring about the greater goods from the outset? Why is God limited in this way? If it really is necessary for evil to occur to bring about greater good, then why didn’t God construct reality in such a way where this wouldn’t be the case?
>Personal question (you’ll have to forgive me for its cheapness but similar low-brows have been used against me by your lot in the past): would you really enjoy your time in Heaven if your kid(s) didn’t make it with you? Could you really look God in the eye and say that you love Him if at any point in eternity you could just look down and see your son or daughter burning?

Anyway, that is what I’ll leave you to ponder on. I genuinely hope for both of our sakes that you’re wrong about your religion because I don’t think it has the implications you think it does. For what it’s worth, I’m more of an antinatalist because of humanity’s impact on the environment than anything to do with suffering or pain (although I still hold that those are good arguments as well).

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 21:47:26 2022 No.20422626 >>20421666 Just like stormfront skinheads make Evola/Mishima autists cringe so do r/childfree "antinatalists" make genuine pessimists

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 21:48:38 2022 No.20422632 >>20422170 Just enjoy your daughter getting hit by a truck and rendered invalid for life bro that's life

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 21:50:35 2022 No.20422637 >>20421777 I'd consider that sublimination. Rebellion is a tale we tell ourselves.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed May 25 21:56:06 2022 No.20422653

>>20422575
Not that anon but I feel like answering some of this.

>How do you hold that we humans are inherently sinful (read: evil) and that an all good God would want us to multiply?

Sin is not an ontological entity that is an equal opposite to god, it’s literally disobedience/being further from him, this is why when David kills a man to sleep with his wife he writes he has sinned against no one but God. God’s will is inherently creative and desires being and existence, that is what good is, to be in accordance to how God desires, evil is the opposite of this which the result is the reduction of qualities, since god is the wellspring of the God, to deny his Will is to deny being and all of the aspects of God, the result of which is sin, suffering and so forth. Good and evil as in the tree narrative isn’t moral good and evil mind you, but rather the extremes of tov (decadence) and re(disaster, destruction, poverty, iniquity as being identical with these.) thus the tree of knowledge narrative is about sin occurring and likewise suffering on account of straying from God and seeking excesses in life that are not for you, it is to try to be what you are not that results in existential suffering.

>If this is to our benefit, then why is an all good being benefitting evil beings?

All that God does is simultaneously on account of his charity(to give and not expect to be appreciated or given back anything. ) his mercy (the capacity to harm and not taking it on account of a sense of brotherhood, a humanity, a care.) and for his own self delight, God’s love for God is such that all is made for his delight. Further evil is not a positive quality, there is no “evil being.” An evil being is a being that has a hole in it, it’s not an attribute it’s a lack of attributes, it’s not a quality it’s a lack of quality. The evil man is the deprived man, deprived of all of the Good he could be by himself.

>It is often said that God allows for finite evils to occur in order to bring about greater goods. Why not just bring about the greater goods from the outset?

First things first, you’re assuming that the evil resultant in nature isn’t desirable to God as a process; of which the Bible says it is, as to why? For it is rational that by contrast the aspects of a thing are revealed, you know color not by the blinding white light but by the multiplicity of shades and hues, in likewise fashion God is absolutely rational and logical, God in the Christian view, his mind is the prototype for all rational and causal law. If something exists in nature it’s a reflection of the principles of his mind. So evil

Cont

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed May 25 21:57:07 2022 No.20422656

>>20422653
exists with Good because it’s rational to, if you say “why doesn’t he make it rational otherwise” that is saying the mind of god in its principle ought be different, and modify its own morality and ideas, for? For? For what? Because humans say so?

>Why is God limited in this way? If it really is necessary for evil to occur to bring about greater good, then why didn’t God construct reality in such a way where this wouldn’t be the case?

Why should he? Creation isn’t human centric its God-centric. and if man did not seek to be what he is not, the evil would not exist in his experience, he would be satisfied.

>would you really enjoy your time in Heaven if your kid(s) didn’t make it with you? Could you really look God in the eye and say that you love Him if at any point in eternity you could just look down and see your son or daughter burning?

I can answer this as I have sons and a daughter. Without a doubt I still would. All goodness and joy and the beautiful derives from God, should we be only happy with him because of his gifts, should we despise him if he removes his gifts? Should we not love the giver of the gift more than the gifts? What beauty or loveliness is in my children not given to them by God? We love our children because we see a reflection of ourselves in them, we see our identity in them, but God is the self by which our selves were fashioned after and all derives from, all that is good is from him. In truth I don’t believe anyone could look God in the eye and not see him as loveable, for he is ontologically love. Not figuratively, he is literally love. And likewise the person who is truly in love with God, if given the option to have eternal delights in the mundane conception of heaven but not see God, or to suffer in hell but have the presence of God. I tell you the truth the real worshipper would pick the flame, he would step in the fire. For all of the infinite joys would be black without God, for God is the goodness of Good, the beauty of Beauty, the wisdom of wisdom. And if I were in hell with the presence of God, it would no longer be hell, but rather the true heaven.

>>	Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed May 25 22:11:55 2022 No.20422700 >>20422632 I know people who have had children crippled and die of cancer who lived on, who still had good moments in life, found happiness and so forth. It’s not as shocking as you’re making it out to be.

Anonymous Wed May 25 22:14:08 2022 No.20422707

Antinatalism bros, why are you even fighting anymore?

There's nothing to win. You can pump these retards till kingdom bloody come and won't encounter anything approaching a sound refutation.

The logic is solid. Its also hollowing and soul-shattering. Learn something from your opponents in their naivete; Just give up.

You can stop the fight anytime. Go start a family. Put on the blinders and build the nursery. I'm already picking out names.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed May 25 22:17:05 2022 No.20422720

>>20422707
The logic is weak, I will repost what I posted last time.

if the topic is say the phenomenology which is the basis of the Schopenhauerian view which is itself kantian, the arguments which break apart and reformulate the kantian model or alternatives to it must be ignored.

So for example you have to ignore the husserlian phenomenology and its direct interaction through Heidegger with kantianism, for example Heidegger’s interpretation at once reconciles the noumena with the phenomena with the only difference in them being the being who partakes of it, otherwise being identical. This shatters the field Schopenhauer draws from and displaces Will in favor of Care which basically destroys the viewpoint of the model.

Likewise you can just argue you agree more with Fichte or the like and just not use the kantian-Schopenhauer view.

Likewise the others who are less formal such as ligotti operate on a mixture of never tackled presuppositions with selective emotional biases, by this I mean to say, the negative and suffering they see are easily dissolved by skepticism into a neutrality/epoche, at times ligotti will even admit this but then back off because he knows he personally doesn’t have the capacity to do this, since he’s mentally ill.

As for the others who try to make a moral/ethical valuation out of destruction, based on a kind of utilitarianism, they must again have various presuppositions and hold to nonsense opinions, such as it is better (a quality of being) that something stay/return to nothing, as if their being somehow existed in stasis in nothing, when in truth the person who suffers if they did not exist prior to birth you cannot claim good or evil occurs to them; because there is no them. Good as a quality can only be applied to a being if it has being, a non-being does not exist thus categories such as better and worse are illogical to apply, and are only applied due to a woe-is-me pathos, one that is not strong enough to move most of these people to suicide.

There’s a reason the common person tells these people to kill themselves, it’s because life, living, birthing Abe so forth are ultimately one thing, the continuous of being, if you believe life bad, then the lack of birthing and annihilation of yourself ought not be seen as different, the only difference is you will experience the removal of your experience.

Not to mention that simply not having a utilitarian ethics absolutely annihilates their arguments, there are plenty of secular ethical models which aren’t utilitarian. Nietzsche for example isn’t utilitarian whatsoever, Will not pleasure/suffering is the crux. And if we count the various religions and spiritual/mystical philosophies as options? The moral sentiments and phenomenology and ontological considerations of the pessimist amount to nothing.

The superior option to pessimism is hardcore skepticism whether in the pyrrhonian or Buddhist form, those can at least wrestle with these.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 22:22:44 2022 No.20422739 >>20421730 Mars wouldn’t exist if people couldn't obverse it If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?

Anonymous Wed May 25 22:33:31 2022 No.20422769

>>20421621
You loose the moment you question your unconditional freedom and the truth of freedom, and your being in the first place. That’s the third principle of philosophy. You are, you think, you’re free.
Coming then with antinatalism is like looking at your head and saying: „brooo whooaa fuggg imagine like like if that wasn’t real browah.“ That’s what you sound like.
You’re walking off a cliff and refuse go stop. You prove your freedom by being not free although no one is restricting your freedom. The schizoid thought of propagating suffering taken from your particular discontent with life blown out of proportion having any significance what so ever is quite literally creating something that wasn’t before as reference or meaning to become a symbol you live under in which state you‘ve forgotten that you created it yourself because you can’t manage to look back further than the immediate life you dislike which is now reaffirmed. You do not only agree with yourself you‘ve made it possible to deceive yourself systematically. If that isn’t a proof of the freedom of the former and the total irreality of antinatalism through unveiling its impossibility in nature which it seeks to use as argument for itself I wouldn’t know what is.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 22:38:01 2022 No.20422779 >>20422769 Oh sure, wait till I renounce antinatalism to make an actual argument. Where were you 500 threads ago? >>20422720 Take off your trip and I'll read that. Otherwise go back to your discord or put a gun in your mouth and shoot it.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 22:41:41 2022 No.20422792 >>20422739 >t. human arrogance/solipsism

Anonymous Wed May 25 22:45:38 2022 No.20422811

>>20422779
I am concerned by the now significant amount of traction this has gotten. I do not convince those who cannot listen.
To get on your level: you are valid. if you hate living why don’t you kill yourself? If you don’t then clearly you aren’t antinatalist enough to call yourself that. What could I learn from a pupil who‘s only read the book?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 22:47:55 2022 No.20422824 The only way to refute it is to admit there's no free will

Anonymous Wed May 25 22:50:50 2022 No.20422832

>>20422720
>nonsense opinions, such as it is better (a quality of being) that something stay/return to nothing, as if their being somehow existed in stasis in nothing, when in truth the person who suffers if they did not exist prior to birth you cannot claim good or evil occurs to them; because there is no them
If a doctor tells a woman her potential child has a 100% chance to be born with an excruciating condition and then die after only a few months due to a genetic defect she contains, would he suddenly pause and go "Oh wait, what am I talking about? Silly me, the child doesn't exist yet so it is unreasonable for me to describe it as having the future characteristic of suffering." There is no reason we can't discuss about potential people who don't physically exist.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 22:54:26 2022 No.20422839 You’re all retarded. You can’t fucking rationalize this shit because as humans we are irrational.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed May 25 22:54:35 2022 No.20422841

>>20422832
If a doctor tells a woman her potential child has a 100% chance to be born with an excruciating condition and then die after only a few months due to a genetic defect she contains, would he suddenly pause and go "Oh wait, what am I talking about? Silly me, the child doesn't exist yet so it is unreasonable for me to describe it as having the future characteristic of suffering." There is no reason we can't discuss about potential people who don't physically exist.

It totally is because you’re saying something will be better for them, better requires being. That hypothetical child doesn’t benefit from never being born because there’s no one who will be born, and that suffering not occurring isn’t a positive because it’s not happening to no one, there is no one who is not being harmed. And again, the ethical foundation of suffering is 100% just a choice you’ve made out of all of the possible options for morality/ethics you could choose. You have no reason to pick it and you have no reason to be universal whatsoever in your ethics either. You could very well say you only care about your own Will and desires if you so decided. Your decision on making suffering the basis of your ethics is fully arbitrary.

Anonymous Wed May 25 23:05:58 2022 No.20422869

>>20422841
>better requires being
Not physically it doesn't. I can easily say that a potential person is a type of being.
>That hypothetical child doesn’t benefit from never being born
Yes it does.
>You have no reason to pick it
There are reasons, you just seem not to agree with them.
>Your decision on making suffering the basis of your ethics is fully arbitrary.
I'm going to assume you base your ethics off of your religion, do you not?

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed May 25 23:09:46 2022 No.20422884

>>20422869
>Not physically it doesn't. I can easily say that a potential person is a type of being.

What do you mean physically it doesn’t? Where is this thing physically benefiting? It literally doesn’t exist, how can anything be better for it?

> Yes it does.

It doesn’t exist, a lack of existence doesn’t gain or lose anything, it literally doesn’t exist.

> There are reasons, you just seem not to agree with them

Tell me why I ought, tell me why you ought.

> I'm going to assume you base your ethics off of your religion, do you not?

Off my phenomenology which agrees with my religious beliefs, my ethics are designed to be suppositionless and holdable even without my religious beliefs due to being based on how experience is experienced.

Anonymous Wed May 25 23:22:02 2022 No.20422932

>>20422884
>It literally doesn’t exist, how can anything be better for it?
You're in some weird mind trap you've built yourself. There is nothing wrong with talking about a potential person who does not physically exist. Go back to the doctor example if you still struggle with this.
>a lack of existence doesn’t gain or lose anything
It's not about the potential person losing or gaining anything when they're in the non-physical potential state. It's about what will happen to this potential person if they come into existence.
>Tell me why I ought, tell me why you ought.
Convince you why you ought not to harm?
>Off my phenomenology which agrees with my religious beliefs, my ethics are designed to be suppositionless and holdable even without my religious beliefs due to being based on how experience is experienced.
Are you serious?

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed May 25 23:35:28 2022 No.20422982

>>20422932
>You're in some weird mind trap you've built yourself. There is nothing wrong with talking about a potential person who does not physically exist. Go back to the doctor example if you still struggle with this.

Just the opposite, I am not in a mind trap because I am not talking about what benefits or harms something which doesn’t exist, and if you’d have your way will never ever exist. The mind trap is trying to say something is better for a non-existent thing.

> It's about what will happen to this potential person if they come into existence.

Of which we can talk about positives and negatives to them once they’re here but until then they cannot be attributed harm or benefit by their lack of existence as they do not exist. You cannot apply attributes of any kind, you cannot apply gain of any kind to something which isn’t nor shall not be, and if they will be born and will exist then we can speak of them when they exist or as if they exist, but if you argue for them not existing then we cannot, for there is not nor will there ever be anyone to whom we are referring to.

> Convince you why you ought not to harm?

Why not? De Sade and Nietzsche give plenty of reasons why harming others can be perfectly fine. If you’re not gonna appeal to a religious or metaphysical platonism of some sort you cannot just expect a universality or commonality to what is moral, just or the like. So explain why you hold beliefs concerning the harm of others and suffering, explain which axioms you hold and why you even hold them if you can. Because again, plenty of atheistic and secular models don’t agree with your take on harm or suffering.

> Are you serious?

Of course I am, I’d post my various phenomenological reductions and so forth but it would be spammy to do so, if desired I’ll link them in Pastebin. It’s not that rare, the French theological turn is very much on the same idea, and Hegel would argue he’s on the same idea too.

Anonymous Wed May 25 23:42:45 2022 No.20423014

>>20421621
Antinatalism is the stupidest fucking philosophy. I refuse to believe that anybody over the age of 16 sincerely follows it. Better not to have been born? How would you even fucking know. Literally anything is better than not existing in the first place. The hundreds of tiny, beautiful events every day is better than never experiencing anything

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 23:44:15 2022 No.20423021 >>20422067 And yet you pursist without suicide, why? There is something intrinsically good about existing. Even if it means pain

Anonymous Wed May 25 23:46:12 2022 No.20423030

>>20422982
Okay, this will be my last comment for this. I view potential persons similar to numbers. Three may not physically exist yet I can tell you it is greater than Two. In that example, I don't think I'd be mistaken in considering that an attribute, yet you may agree that they don't physically exist. The potential person may not exist, yet I know harm will come to it if it does come into existence. I do not need to wait for it to be popped out of a woman before I can begin reflecting on it. Personally, I think you can have good reasons for causing harm to things, but those things already physically exist. So for an anti-natalist perspective it's a bit too late in that regard. Feel free to post your Pastebin, I'd look for curiosity's sake.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 23:47:32 2022 No.20423036 >>20422932 Join me, brother. https://youtu.be/nGTEXqudVJM?t=79

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 23:48:27 2022 No.20423040 >>20423036 Where are we off to Dad?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 23:51:00 2022 No.20423051 File: 75 KB, 850x400, quote-i-don-t-think-there-is-anything-particularly-wrong-in-hitting-a-woman-though-i-don-t-sean-connery-6-23-29.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20423040 To slap women, junior. We're gonna be hell on them hoes.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 23:53:54 2022 No.20423070 Antinatalist here. I'm going to breed just because I want some kids who will love me. I guess it's selfish

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 23:53:54 2022 No.20423071 File: 73 KB, 640x705, 1581117219427.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20423051

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 23:56:37 2022 No.20423080 >>20423070 Based. That's how I look at it. Antinatalism will just sit there eternally true as fuck. Whatever, not my fight. Should we have kids? Of course not but do it anyway.

Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 Wed May 25 23:56:47 2022 No.20423082

>>20423030
>Okay, this will be my last comment for this. I view potential persons similar to numbers. Three may not physically exist yet I can tell you it is greater than Two.

That’s fundamentally a soft mathematical platonism, mathematics is divided into two schools, the nominalists who argue number and so forth don’t actually exist and are just relevant/meaningful within arbitrarily chosen parameters within their own models/systems, and never have actual referents or objective meaning. Thus to say 2 is greater than 1 is only meaningful in the constructed artificial human created model and in reality is meaningless as the parameters and construction of math could be utterly different in formulation potentially. Or you’re a platonist and believe these things actually have a human-mind-independent existence.

>I do not need to wait for it to be popped out of a woman before I can begin reflecting on it.

You absolutely do if you want to say if something is happening to it, is good for it or not and so forth, until it exists there is no causal relation or quality attributable to it, and if it will exist and we will not kill it then our thought experiment is no longer on a nothing but simply on a hypothetical human which is a different story as that isolates your anti-natalist position from even being an option. You cannot say it is better to not exist because it is not better for anyone, there is no one who gains or lacks from it, they don’t exist.

>Feel free to post your Pastebin, I'd look for curiosity's sake

First the analysis to attain our principles

https://pastebin.com/txJ1sFUw

The ethical implications

https://pastebin.com/0LRz8khT

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 00:31:36 2022 No.20423216 https://youtu.be/bp8hNl7Gmhg

Anonymous Thu May 26 01:30:30 2022 No.20423352
File: 179 KB, 1300x1941, life vs non-existence.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>20423014
>Literally anything is better than not existing in the first place.
And how do you know?
The hundreds of tiny, beautiful events every day is better than never experiencing anything
What about the hundreds of tiny hideous events?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:31:57 2022 No.20423354 >>20421892 >I've read Pearce and its an unworkable solution. Why exactly is it unworkable?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:33:00 2022 No.20423361 File: 1.80 MB, 1579x930, self immolation.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20422433 Light yourself on fire so that you can suffer more

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:34:03 2022 No.20423365 File: 418 KB, 600x600, god soy.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20422427 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzUAT7QcrxA

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:34:39 2022 No.20423367 >>20423361 But then I would die and I couldn't continue to suffer

Anonymous Thu May 26 01:34:57 2022 No.20423368

>>20421736
>If I do, I know it will suffer. I know that the bad in life is worse than the good is "good."
Just untrue, there is a great range for both.
The act of experience makes the life worth living.

You did not exist for infinity before you lived and you will not for infinity after your short sub 90. Relative to the non existence a short experiential life is an opportunity that you cant pass up.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:35:53 2022 No.20423373 File: 126 KB, 460x696, arm burns.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20423367 Then only burn part of your body instead of all of it

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:37:58 2022 No.20423375 File: 24 KB, 339x255, 1650727169905.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20421779 Bc life is a gift worth sharing. You'd know that if you'd took the chance to go out and live instead of being misanthropic neets.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:42:47 2022 No.20423382 >>20421621 Are you just making AN threads at this point for the easy (You)'s? Life and the things I love are worth more than the suffering of this world, no matter how great it may be.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:44:16 2022 No.20423388 >>20422427 I think even secular people that reproduce are taking a chance. I mean, all of our data on death comes from the outside. There is no data on what it means to die as a subjective agent.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:45:20 2022 No.20423392 >>20421866 More like short sited misery. Actually go out into tge world, free yourself from your 2010s+ shackles and experience life. There is so much beauty, and the amount of pain makes the beaty pop out so much more

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:45:44 2022 No.20423394 White suburbanites on both sides shouldn't be posting. I doubt any of you have really suffered enough in order to believe in spiteful life affirmation or life denial.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:52:03 2022 No.20423413 File: 20 KB, 306x306, disappointed pepe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20423394 >suffering is a competition

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:52:48 2022 No.20423417 >>20423413 At least the left and right can come together on being absolutely retarded in the face of antinatalsim.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:52:48 2022 No.20423418 >>20422106 Lack of community, shared vision for the future. It makes the suffering pointless rather than one more flavor in the dish of life

Anonymous Thu May 26 03:35:27 2022 No.20423706

So, what is the argument of antinatalism? Don't breed because the child will suffer/ have no meaning/ it's selfish/ the child never gave its permission?
If this is the crux of the argument, then it's flawed because proponents of it almost never kill themselves therefore their continued living PROVES existence is better to THEM than non-existence. Therefore, their argument is eternally rendered void by their very actions.
"Oh, my animal instincts make it impossible for me to kill myself!"
Bullshit. It's a weak argument because suicide is commonplace therefore isn't difficult to do for people whose convictions are strong.

So yeah, antinatalists are the kind of faggots whose argument is akin to the kind of prick who says "Yeah, I could totally beat 10 guys in a fight. I have zero doubt. I just choose not to. There is no argument against my statement"
Such hypocrites.

Anonymous Thu May 26 03:42:40 2022 No.20423733

Antinatalism is just a huge waste of time. Yes life is suffering, we know. But submerging yourself in that suffering is truly mental, only so much suffering is actually necessary in life. The rest is 100% user controlled. Personally I'm not gonna have a kid most likely because they're a pain in the ass and hard work. But anti natalists aren't very smart to me.

Anonymous Thu May 26 03:47:59 2022 No.20423751

>>20421621
>can't refute this nigga
Let me try real quick.
Right, I got it:
I love my life and my life is good.
Damn, I just did it.
>n-n-no you don't and your life is bad
Uuuuhhhmmm, yes I do and no it isn't.
>c-c-c-cope! you are coping!
With what? YOUR depression? In a qualified way, well yeah, right now I am dealing with your depression ITT. As soon as I walk away from the screen, that's no longer the case.
>y-y-y-you wouldn't have to say it if it was true!!!
And I usually don't, just mostly when people explicitly suggest the opposite to be the case.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 04:17:39 2022 No.20423825 >>20423375 What makes you think so?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 04:22:06 2022 No.20423834 >>20423082 You are a cretin. Stop posting.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 04:24:06 2022 No.20423839 I for one am happy I a exist and I am deeply grateful to my wonderful parent's.

Anonymous Thu May 26 04:29:45 2022 No.20423854

>>20423706

What makes you think that performing the deed will yield the intended result? I've asked this question every fucking time one of you monkeys posts this dumb shit, if you would have spent HALF the time thinking about it and replying, rather than spamming the same shit for years like a cretin, you would have saved both the board and yourself from absolute cretinism. Fuck you.

Anonymous Thu May 26 04:34:07 2022 No.20423867

>>20423082

So, by your Logic, no one should dig a foundation for a building, since the building does not exist and cannot benefit form it yet. It is only AFTER the fucking building is built that the foundation should be dug. How do you manage to breathe?

Anonymous Thu May 26 04:39:23 2022 No.20423887

>>20422187
That's a prime example of Luciferian 666 totalitarian rationalism. The world is not doomed because of imperfection. Imperfection is what allows perfection to come about and is necessary for the possibility of reaching paradise/salvation/redemption. Your doom and gloom is the consequence of your doomer vision of the world which is indistinguishable from the worship of the Deceiver and the rejection of God as Logos and Agape. Despair is a mortal sin.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 04:45:58 2022 No.20423906 >>20423887 >Imperfection is what allows perfection to come about and is necessary for the possibility of reaching paradise/salvation/redemption Hence the Evil of good and the Evil of God.

Anonymous Thu May 26 04:57:10 2022 No.20423940

>Existence is suffering
The whole argument collapses when you consider that this is a personal bias and is not supported by any evidence, short of "some people suffer then all life must suck".
I could say the same " My life doesn't suck therefore all life must be good".
This is on top of retardation of ignoring the fundamentals of physical reality and the fact that unpleasantness of general living is a product of the environment we live in, and the "pain" we experience is an important biological signaling tool for our bodies. There is no deep metaphysical end to it.

Lastly, conceptualizing and asking of permission of a non-existent being whether it wants to live is asinine and presupposes an existence of the being as an immaterial soul which awaits a corporeal body to manifest - weirdly spiritual take for a nihilistic dogma.
But if we assume the above not to be the case, then your idea falls apart as it rests on asking a literal vacuum of existence a moral question it cannot answer.
This is not philosophy, its a delusion, based on a weird sort of arrogance that is typical misanthropes and nihilists: " nothing in life matters, therefore you are all shit, look how smart I am for figuring it out". If these pseuds were really convinced of their own babble, they would eat a gun right after coming to their conclusions. "Oh, but that will cause me and my family more pain, etc." - literal cope and mental gymnastics to get around the logical conclusion of their argument.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 04:58:57 2022 No.20423953 >>20423940 >and the "pain" we experience is an important biological signaling tool for our bodies Utter nonsense. There is plenty of pain with no bodily damage and vice versa.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:02:27 2022 No.20423966 >>20423940 >asking a literal vacuum of existence a moral question it cannot answer. That itself is the answer. No consent, no life.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:09:21 2022 No.20423986

>>20423966
You cannot ask a question of a non-entity - you are not interacting with any subject, thus proving nothing, except that you are a schizo. It's a thought experiment that has no solution apart from the one you want to impose on it, thus making it morally and logically dubious.

>>20423953
Which does not dismiss the fact that existence of pain itself is biologically necessary.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:16:04 2022 No.20424003

>>20423854
>What makes you think that performing the deed will yield the intended result?
Millions of people have managed to accomplish the deed. What makes you so retarded and effete that means you'd fail?
I'll give you a clue: it's because antinatalists love life, the cowardly charlatans.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:16:04 2022 No.20424004

>>20423986

The point is not whether or not you can ask a question, but whether or not you can receive and answer. The fact that you cannot receive one is reason enough to make the act absolutely immoral. Unless, of course, you want to, consequently, claim that doing things to parties from which you cannot receive consent is permissible for that reason alone.

Necessary for what? Since it is demonstrable that you can have pain without bodily damage and vice versa, what would happen if there would be no pain?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:17:14 2022 No.20424006 >>20424003 How do you know that said people are actually dead? I realize that your object permanence is close to null, but try to think about it.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:22:56 2022 No.20424018

>>20424004
>but whether or not you can receive and answer
See the end of my previous response. You do not have an interlocutor, thus the questioning itself is futile and invalid, your expectation of a lack of answer says more about your predetermined bias since the result is always the same - no answer.
It's a flawed argument since it defies any standard or reasoned expectation.
>Absolutely immoral
To whom? Again, who is the subject? There is no one you are interacting with save your own mind, there is no party I am imposing anything on. Morality does not exist in a vacuum, so your claim that a lack of an answer equals consent doesn't even apply here, since THERE IS NO INTERACTING WITH ANYONE!.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:23:15 2022 No.20424020
File: 2.66 MB, 384x288, its-still.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>20424006
>>20424006
Omfg. You're RIGHT! How could we be so foolish to assume that some poor fucker who jumped in front of a train, resulting in total dismemberment and then had their parts cremated and scattered is *actually* dead????? THEY MIGHT STILL BE ALIVE!!!!

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:24:28 2022 No.20424026 >>20423966 Consent is a pretty overrated concept anyways

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:27:50 2022 No.20424034

>>20422656
>I can answer this as I have sons and a daughter. Without a doubt I still would. All goodness and joy and the beautiful derives from God, should we be only happy with him because of his gifts, should we despise him if he removes his gifts?
>gifts
lol people who unironically speak about their own children this way presume to preach to me about "morality"

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:29:00 2022 No.20424035 >>20424034 He's done more in his life and given more to sustaining the human race than your waste of space ever will.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:29:40 2022 No.20424037

>>20424018

Whether or not there is an interlocutor is irrelevant. For example, an animal, person in a coma, or a toddler, ironically enough, can be said to be non-interlocutors. It not does matter one way or another. What does matter is the lack of consent, their impossibility of giving it and your impossibility of receiving it, which makes acting upon them absolutely immoral. The immorality being incurred by you, the one who committed the depraved act.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:30:13 2022 No.20424039

>>20422067
What is the nature of this pain? Are you an obese faggot eating onions and seed oils all day? or do you have some horrific genetic disorder?
Like >>20423021 said, you're shitposting here and thus are alive, so even in your situation you clearly feel like life is worth living somewhat. Living is optional, after all.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:30:59 2022 No.20424040 >>20424020 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:31:01 2022 No.20424041 >>20424035 at least you took off the trip this time

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:33:02 2022 No.20424048

>>20424037
>Whether or not there is an interlocutor is irrelevant
It is absolutely relevant, because in your example , there were still subjects that could physically interact with or would experience the reaction from you in some biological way - talking to a vacuum is a sign of madness, not of moral virtue.
Rest of your argument is irrelevant, since it amounts to saying the same thing over and over again. No subject - no morality, everything else is schizo talk.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:34:12 2022 No.20424050 >>20424040 Ah, the Schizo response. Truly a lost cause.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:34:13 2022 No.20424051

>>20421621
>>20421632
Pessimism is literally the philosophy of losers.
>waahhh life is pointless
>wahhh why even try
>its all pointless, Ill lose anyway
The ultimate goal of your life is to create your own meaning. Whether that's through family, passion, work, knowledge, fitness or whatever else doesn't matter. But blackpilled pessimists are absolute loser faggots.

Its okay to admit you haven't found meaning yet, but to just give up because "we all become dust" is pathetic, really.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:34:58 2022 No.20424052 >>20424048 >or would experience the reaction from you in some biological way As ideological and meaningless a statement as the one conflating potential interlocutors with a vacuum.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:37:28 2022 No.20424060 >>20424051 How would you create what does not exist?

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:37:28 2022 No.20424061

>>20424052
Yet this is the crux of the matter - you have living beings on one side, and on the other you are talking into vacuum. If this does not break the argumentation then there is no further point in continuing since your "morality" is divorced from reality.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:40:24 2022 No.20424070 >>20424061 >"morality" is divorced from reality. Of course, this is the meaning of morality. All moral principles say no to reality. Reality is nothing but bestial cretinism.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:44:14 2022 No.20424082 >>20424070 >Reality is nothing but bestial cretinism Subjective hot take of a midwit. Congratulations, you lost.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:46:12 2022 No.20424087 >>20424082 Prove me wrong. You can't.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:54:07 2022 No.20424114
File: 1.28 MB, 1920x1080, 1623581268597.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>20424060
If I find meaning in making my family happy, that's something to me (and that's all that matters).
If I find meaning in being the strongest powerlifter, that's something to me (and that's all that matters).
If I find meaning in learning everything about quantum field theory and the universe, that's something to me (and that;s all that matters).

Do you see where I'm going with this? The beauty of finding meaning is that you are creating something (meaning) from nothing (pessimism).

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:56:48 2022 No.20424122 >>20424114 Would that not be the opposite of meaning? Myopic autism?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:57:27 2022 No.20424125 >>20424087 You talk into nothingness and take lack of response as a moral imperative. You're a nut.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:58:42 2022 No.20424127 >>20424125 Not only its lack, but its impossibility. Mind the difference.

Anonymous Thu May 26 05:59:15 2022 No.20424129
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>>20424122
What? How is finding meaning in your life through following a passion the opposite of meaning? I don't think you understand the point I'm trying to get across.
Live your life like Sisyphus, you have a goal to strive for and you peruse it relentlessly. That's it.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:01:17 2022 No.20424137 >>20424129 >you have a goal to strive for and you peruse it relentlessly. That's it Exactly. Myopic, solispsist, isolated, autistic, bestial, i.e. non-meaning.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:02:42 2022 No.20424139 File: 231 KB, 499x520, 1583546902102.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20424137 >following a passion is short sighted and meaningless okay loser

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:02:48 2022 No.20424140 >>20424114 A LITTLE BIT OF CHICKEN FRIED!!!

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:04:07 2022 No.20424147
File: 837 KB, 752x717, 1635939838360.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>20424137
>"Please, can someone tell of of a good book that explains the meaning of life? Or can anyone tell me what's the point of it all? I can't figure it out, only see nothingness. Please someone!!!"

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:04:37 2022 No.20424148 >>20424139 It is the very opposite of meaning, universal, communicable, exchangeable, etc.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:05:08 2022 No.20424153 >>20424020 https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/xCG6kXXmYwKCYHeif/if-mwi-is-correct-should-we-expect-to-experience-quantum And this is just one such theory.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:05:43 2022 No.20424156 >>20424147 I've already explained it, there is none.

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:07:20 2022 No.20424158

>>20424148
>It is the very opposite of meaning
You don't understand at all, loser.
Meaning isn't quantifiable, its something personal TO YOU. That's my point. You find your own reasons to live.
You find your own goals to peruse.

Or you whine and cry on an image board like a blackpilled faggot. The choice is yours, i don't give a fuck what you do, just trying to share my journey out of blackpilled hell with you. Take it or leave it.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:08:36 2022 No.20424162 >>20424156 To you, midwit.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:09:59 2022 No.20424168 >>20424060 Why not an hero if life is truly meaningless?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:11:15 2022 No.20424173 >>20424158 What distinguishes this from being a beast? A cockroach's life presumably consists of nothing but that which is not quantifiable, something personal (insectal?) to it.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:12:17 2022 No.20424175 >>20424168 See: >>20423854

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:14:18 2022 No.20424180 >>20424173 You are part of nature and the natural world. You are a beast.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:15:56 2022 No.20424187 >>20424180 So the answer is nothing?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:17:35 2022 No.20424189 >>20424187 What are you asking?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:18:38 2022 No.20424194 >>20424189 >What distinguishes this from being a beast?

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:21:18 2022 No.20424202

>>20424194
Man you really are deep in this loser mindset. I've been through this with you already, I have shit to do so I'm not going to say this again.
In terms of the natural world, you are a beast.
But that doesn't mean your life, or that of an animal is meaningless. See >>20424114 and >>20424129.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:23:33 2022 No.20424207 File: 199 KB, 463x280, i heckin luv meaning.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20424202

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:25:48 2022 No.20424208 >>20424207 >I'm a cockroach That you are anon, that you are.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:27:14 2022 No.20424213 >>20424208 No, you conceded, twice, to being one.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:27:28 2022 No.20424215 >>20424207 You have zero rebuttals to that so you went to the effort of making that. Pathetic really. Literal loser.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:27:34 2022 No.20424216 >>20424175 Such a faggot response. "I might not succeed, so I won't risk trying." Well, here's a proposition: give it a go. If you fail, so what? You've got nothing to lose. Or do you? How deep is your conviction? So far, it is as shallow as a puddle.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:28:28 2022 No.20424222 >>20424213 Your replying to some else, and at not point did I concede to that, Stop projecting you loser faggot.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:29:08 2022 No.20424229 >>20424215 You conceded that nothing distinguishes you from a cockroach (>>20424180 and>>20424202). What do you expect me to post?

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:29:30 2022 No.20424231

>>20423394
Anybody who is not happy and successful has nothing to say on the matter as they are inherently biased by their experiences and thus can argue only from an emotional position. And they are also stupid and poor which also precludes them from speaking on any matter.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:30:15 2022 No.20424235 >>20424222 Is that the scurrying of prickly appendages?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:30:51 2022 No.20424236 >>20424229 How the fuck is saying youre part of the natural world conceding that your a cockroach you pathetic loser? If having a purpose in life makes you an insect, then what are you?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:31:02 2022 No.20424238 >>20423854 what makes you think anything you (obviously) do will yield the intended result?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:31:17 2022 No.20424239 >>20424216 My point being that my life and death are not my hands.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:31:55 2022 No.20424243 File: 19 KB, 334x393, 1646473590629.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20424207 >>20424235 >"Life is poitnelss" >find meaning >"UHHH YOURE AN INSECT"

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:32:20 2022 No.20424246 >>20424238 I do NOT think that at all.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:32:33 2022 No.20424247 >>20423966 no such thing exists as consent

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:33:23 2022 No.20424248 >>20424236 Is there a intra-natural distinction then?

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:34:09 2022 No.20424251

>>20424236
I'll answer for them
"I am nothing. Life has no meaning. But I won't kill myself in case I fail and totally NOT because life actually is pretty fucking awesome all truth be told. But yes. Life has no meaning, it has so little meaning that even trying to kill myself is wasted effort. I exist on eating whatever scraps I find, because choosing WHAT to eat is meaningless. I also shit my pants because moving towards a toilet is meaningless. Meaningless!"

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:34:27 2022 No.20424252 >>20424247 All the more reason to considering doing immoral.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:35:29 2022 No.20424255 >>20424251 See: >>20424239

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:36:18 2022 No.20424257 >>20424153 unironically citing lesswrong in support of your argument means you lose. look up /lit/ canon law.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:36:32 2022 No.20424259 >>20424239 Not your hands? What the fuck are you prattling on about?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:37:24 2022 No.20424263 >>20424248 The distinction is that its YOUR life

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:37:34 2022 No.20424265 >>20424259 That I am being forcefully vivified by an other.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:38:02 2022 No.20424266 >>20424246 and yet you take most of your actions under the presumption that they will yield the intended result

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:38:25 2022 No.20424268 >>20424255 >>20424265 >death isn't in my hands bruh you can kill yourself right now, life is optional you retard lmao

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:38:36 2022 No.20424269 >>20424263 >the distinction is that i am THIS cockroach not THAT one

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:39:36 2022 No.20424273 File: 16 KB, 447x444, 1579983414582.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>20424269 >literally cant stop comparing your own life to that of a roach Just kill yourself already you pathetic loser

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:39:54 2022 No.20424275 >>20424266 Not really.

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:40:22 2022 No.20424276
File: 80 KB, 400x388, afkgaming_2021-08_79649079-d0e7-4acd-853b-6a2b92797da3_copium_png.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>20424265
Are you literally THAT incompetent that you'd fail killing yourself? Am I communicating with a vegetable using a mind-app to upload words to a website?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:41:05 2022 No.20424279 >>20424273 You compared it, not me. Twice. Now you're upside-down and kicking your (six) legs.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:41:37 2022 No.20424281 >>20421621 Kill yourself

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:42:15 2022 No.20424284 >>20424268 >>20424276 The point being that the consequences of performing the act are likely more forceful vivifying.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:42:55 2022 No.20424285 >>20424279 Literally never once made that comparison, that was you. I'm pretty sure you're just baiting me at this point because you can't refute my core point - that you must create your own meaning in this world, or be a miserable loser.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:43:24 2022 No.20424288 >>20424284 In what way?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:44:26 2022 No.20424294 >>20424285 AHEM! >>20424180 >>20424202

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:45:10 2022 No.20424298

>>20424275
okay then, give me an example of what you do in an average day and how your doubt is incorporated in to your actions. watch out for that keyboard btw, maybe when you punch a certain key, a different letter than the one intended will come out.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:45:32 2022 No.20424301 >>20424288 Another life, more life, indefinite life, containing more experience.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:46:35 2022 No.20424306 >>20424298 Nothing distinguishes what I do from the average, just the lack of ideology.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:47:07 2022 No.20424310 >>20424301 So THIS life isn't THAT bad then because you admit it's preferable to what comes after, whatever that may be?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:47:56 2022 No.20424314 >>20424294 You are part of the natural world != You are an insect Incredible mental gymnastics there

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:49:09 2022 No.20424316 >>20424306 explain how this is not the case >>20424266

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:49:36 2022 No.20424317 >>20424310 I don't think that the relativism works, since both instances are engendered by the same agent, thus the least Evil one is just as Evil as the most Evil one.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:50:41 2022 No.20424321 >>20424316 What is there to explain? I have no libidinal investment in anything I do.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:53:22 2022 No.20424331 >>20424314 The distinction is purely ideological.

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:53:39 2022 No.20424332

>>20424317
What a fucking drip.
Do you remember past lives? No? Then it's fair to say that either there's nothing after this life, or that you remember nothing upon rebirth. Therefore, you literally have NOTHING to lose by an heroing. You have no way of knowing that there's further suffering, so you have nothing to lose by trying to end it all. Either stand by your conviction that life is meaningless and escape from it, or admit that you're a cowardly charlatan who actuallyfinds this life tolerable enough to keep going.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:55:08 2022 No.20424339 >>20424332 Do you remember your past Christmas?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:56:28 2022 No.20424344 >>20424321 i highly doubt that. besides that was not my point. you say you operate in everyday life and yet you claim to harbor no notions of causality.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:57:57 2022 No.20424354 >>20424339 yes, it's pretty much like that wham song

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:58:54 2022 No.20424358 >>20424344 Yes?

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:59:08 2022 No.20424360

>>20421892
>You can't win against the antinatalist argument, none of you ever come close
Your entire worldview is based on the completely irrational and unjustified utilitarian assertion that "pleasure is the highest good" and that we ought to maximize it. Then when you realize the difficulty of doing so, you call for the destruction of all life. Your ilk disgust me more than anything else in this world, you slaves to pleasure are unworthy of even licking my feet.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:59:38 2022 No.20424363 >suffereing is LE good What the fuck went so wrong with people?

Anonymous Thu May 26 06:59:51 2022 No.20424364

>>20424339
Yes.
Do I remember every Christmas? No. Doesn't compare to the point you want to make "well, just like you don't remember every Xmas is proof that we also don't remember our past lives!"
Incorrect. I remember a good number of Xmasses to know that they're finite and actually happened. Can't say the same for even a millisecond of a supposed pre-existence. And if I did pre-exist, it has zero bearing on my present so either way it's IMPOSSIBLE to fear.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:59:56 2022 No.20424366 >>20424354 scurry scurry scurry The point being you don't remember most of your life, which does not mean that it doesn't exist.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:01:01 2022 No.20424369 >>20424360 Hardly, pleasure is ultimately a perturbation that is contiguous with suffering. Hence the moral imperative to abolish both of them.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:02:42 2022 No.20424375 >>20424364 How would you know that Christmasses are finite simply from...remembering a good number of them?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:07:24 2022 No.20424386 >>20422415 Not a single reply from the antinatalists/utilitarians to this rebuttal... very telling.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:09:03 2022 No.20424391 >>20424386 See: >>20423966

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:09:22 2022 No.20424394 >>20424375 Because human life is finite. You'll find out when you an hero. Or maybe not? Only one way to find out, champ.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:10:42 2022 No.20424399 >>20424394 >i know that human life is finite because........human life is finite Maybe you weren't kidding about being a roach?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:13:18 2022 No.20424408 >>20424399 I have a foolproof way to prove it to you (saying that, being a fool yourself, you may struggle) An hero. If you don't come back then my argument is correct, our life is finite. If you DO come back then you win, and I will concede defeat.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:13:49 2022 No.20424410 Reminder that natalists are unironically like this. A black exoskeleton of ideology imprisons them into a lifetime of scurrying.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:14:59 2022 No.20424413 >>20424408 No object permanence, as I said: >>20424006

Anonymous Thu May 26 07:15:29 2022 No.20424416

>>20424369
Yeah, you just restated what I wrote. You consider pleasure the highest good so you seek to maximize it, and this implies that pain (suffering) is the highest bad and you seek to minimize it, these are equivalent statements. And when you realize the impossibility of abolishing pain, instead of just accepting the state of things and moving on, you, like a child who cannot get what it wants, throw a tantrum and decide you want to burn it all to the ground.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:18:23 2022 No.20424428 >>20424416 No, I did not restate what you wrote. I said nothing of equivalency of statements, only of experiences.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:19:01 2022 No.20424432 >>20424413 Then how do you know there's life permanence? You don't. You're guessing. You sound like a person who does nothing "in case it doesn't work out." Well, you choose that way to live. Crack on.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:23:36 2022 No.20424445 >>20424432 The fact that life is inherently polluted with Evil, no, is inherently Evil, is reason enough to assume that.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:24:06 2022 No.20424447 >>20424039 >shitposting here >are alive Those are mutually exclusive, not consequential. Everyone shitposting here exists. Not the same as living.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:25:09 2022 No.20424453 >>20424060 >How would you create what does not exist? How would you create what DOES exist? It's not creating if it already exists in the first place innit?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:29:12 2022 No.20424459 >>20424453 Exactly, so the fact that there is no meaning guarantees that no one will ever create it.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:30:40 2022 No.20424464 >>20421621 Refuted retroactively by Nietzsche Heidegger

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:31:49 2022 No.20424465 >>20424464 A syphilitic and a nazi. Sounds about right.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:32:37 2022 No.20424468 >>20424459 Literally the opposite though. If life has inherent meaning, then it's impossible to create a new meaning. If it has no inherent meaning, then it's inevitable that a new meaning will be created.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:34:20 2022 No.20424474 >>20424468 What did he mean by this?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 09:01:27 2022 No.20424670 bumo

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 10:08:41 2022 No.20424915 >>20423906 Evil doesn't exist. You are being deceived by the Evil One. Remember, it's just chemicals in your brain bro. Don't take them too seriously.

Anonymous Thu May 26 10:16:30 2022 No.20424940

>>20422158
>If life is pointless, then why not breed anyway?
Fucking kek, this is the mind of a breeder huh? Let me create this new life with its own thoughts and desires just for my own pleasure. I'm glad the majority of people I see on the street is on ssri or some sort of drug. Fuck all breeders.

Lol The joys of life? What joys are those? Romance, sex, parties? More hedonism? How is that turning out for the west? We have a literal war going on in europe but hey fuck all that noise more kids for the slaughter.

Anonymous Thu May 26 10:19:54 2022 No.20424958

>>20423021
If I could wrap a noose around my neck I would be dead by now. Not all of us have the luxury of strength of body. Give people easy access to euthanasia and we would be gone. Instead you lot push pro life bs extending our suffering. I'm my mother kills me she spends the rest of her life in prison.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 10:22:58 2022 No.20424969 >>20422632 So when do people actually feel pain and sorrow then? We bring up a point you hit back with well pain is life and people bounce back eventually. So when do people not bounce back?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 10:26:16 2022 No.20424987 >>20423388 But religious people believe in hell though. They're taking the greater risk.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 11:52:04 2022 No.20425334 >>20424940 End your suffering. Kys.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 11:53:05 2022 No.20425340 >>20424958 Explain your physical situation. Alternatively, refuse food and liquids.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 14:24:15 2022 No.20426158 >>20424465 Yes, the Nazis are right as usual.

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/lit/ - Literature